Talk:Abiogenesis

Electron Transport Chain studies worthy - or not?

Is the following edit (or related) worth adding to the main Abiogenesis article?

Another strategy to understand abiogenesis may involve electron transport chains in "bottom-up" (based on chemistries related to the prebiotic Earth) and "top-down" (based on chemistries related to current lifeforms) studies, according to biologists.

In any case - Stay Safe and Healthy !! - Drbogdan (talk) 17:42, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

References

The article length, after much work to control it, is starting to creep up again. I'm very reluctant about piecemeal additions, especially from primary research papers, of which there are many. We'd do much better, now that we have the main points covered, to follow best practice and wait until the best of the many new ideas and suggestions turn into accepted science via review articles and textbooks. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:11, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

@Chiswick Chap: (and others) - Thank You for your *Excellent* comments - yes - completely agree - no problem whatsoever - Thanks again for your comments - Stay Safe and Healthy !! - Drbogdan (talk) 13:27, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Theories stated as facts

I'm not trying to help the creationist vandals of this article, but this article opens with a statement about how abiogenesis occured. Andndoes so as if the explanation given is a statement of fact and not just a statement of one of any different theories of abiogenesis. That's all I wanted to add. Even abiogensis is theoretical, but it's being treated as observed fact. 2600:387:B:7:0:0:0:67 (talk) 17:30, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Have in mind that "theory" does not have the same meaning in everyday talk and in scientific talk. In science, Abiogenesis is accepted as a fact (even if we say that life started on Venus or Mars and then moved here by panspermia, it would have still started there, and the road from non-living to life would still be Abiogenesis). A theory in science is not a dubious fact, but an explanation of the precise way something happened. Cambalachero (talk) 17:42, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it's a "theory" in the same sense as "theory of evolution", "cell theory of life", or for that matter "gene theory". There is no doubt among biologists that life works in these ways, however revisable all theories are in, er, theory. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:46, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

OP is clearly using Theory in the sense of unproven but educated assumptions, not hard facts. The wording should be changed to reflect that it is theory. Criticisms of this theory include how entropy had to decrease a long way before biological processes would let it increase again. As well as how such complex genomes came to be so fast from nothing but free floating, individual bases. 2405:6580:D420:5C00:483D:F518:3E09:635D (talk) 08:23, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Funny call creationists vandals when abiogenesis is only speculation and pseudoscience because it was never replicated in laboratory. 87.1.32.122 (talk) 15:50, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

As this is a usual thing to clarify, I started the essay Wikipedia:Theory, to define in a few words concepts like "theory", "hypothesis", "fact", "law", etc, how they relate to each other and the differences between each of them. The Wikipedia article is fine, but it may be a bit too complex for that, and the comparison of scientific ideas would be a bit out of place. Cambalachero (talk) 19:52, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Ah, it's already in the FAQ at the top of this talk page: Q2. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:21, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: ASTBIO 502 Astrobiology Special Topics -Origin Of Life

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 30 September 2023 and 8 December 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Brinaluvsrocks (article contribs). Peer reviewers: HaskelleTW.

— Assignment last updated by HaskelleTW (talk) 22:31, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

"Minimal requirements for life" unconnected to this article

An editor has inserted a chapter on this aspect of life, but Abiogenesis is a process, and the question of what life is defined as is no part of this article. Chiswick Chap (talk) 22:05, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

I searched for origin of life and this article popped up. The properties that would need to emerge of what would lead to life (e.g. capacity to metabolize energy or reproduction) is relevant no? Ramos1990 (talk) 22:30, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

We do not construct articles based on editors' presumptions about what might be relevant to a subject (WP:OR), but on what authorities on that subject - scholars, scientists - have actually stated when describing the subject of the article. Chiswick Chap (talk) 22:34, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Well, origin of life textbooks like the Emergence of Life: From Chemical Origins to Synthetic Biology (Cambrdge Univerity Press) do talk about these things. For example, Oparin's model of molecules to macromolecules to metabolism, genetic code, and compartments to get to a cell. Also Origin of Life by David Deamer. Ramos1990 (talk) 22:44, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Actually, the definition of life does play a role in this. At the start of this whole process we have only unliving thing, and by the end of it we would have a living thing. The definition of life is important, because it would define the moment when we would cross that line. And that living thing that would emerge from this process would no doubt be different to the current living beings, so the definition should be a bit more flexible, to fit into that context. I have read this issue in books about abiogenesis, so yes, it's there.

However, the proposed text does not do the job of explaining how the definition of life fits into all this, it merely lists some generic characteristics of life, so it does not add to the article as it was written. Cambalachero (talk) 01:09, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I suppose I could have reworded it to properties needed for transitioning from non-life to life or, put another way, possible criteria for prebiotic to biotic transitioning. Would that work? This is more specific to the article topic. Deamer says

"There is little agreement about a dictionary-style definition of life that can be stated in one sentence. The reason is that cells, the units of life, are not things, but instead are systems of molecular structures and processes, each of which is necessary for the function of the whole. However, it is possible to list the most general properties and then describe the individual structures and processes in such a way that when taken together they can only fit something that is alive. Maybe that's the best we can do, so here are some general properties followed by a list of twelve specific properties that define cellular life on Earth.

General properties

Living cells are encapsulated systems of polymers that use nutrients and energy from the environment to carry out the following functions:

Enzyme-catalyzed metabolism

Growth by catalyzed polymerization

Guidance of growth by genetic information

Reproduction of genetic information

Division into daughter cells

Mutation

Evolution"

What do you think? Ramos1990 (talk) 02:13, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

I think it's off the topic of the process of abiogenesis. This article, too, is not even limited to Earth, though it's obviously the example to hand. It doesn't matter for the process where along the line from nothing to obviously rampant evolving and flourishing where exactly is the "minimum" - whether 57.25%" or 61.39%, it's simply irrelevant here. Chiswick Chap (talk) 05:55, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Worth adding edit to Abiogenesis article? - or elsewhere? - Comments Welcome !

Currently, the total number of living cells on the Earth is estimated to be 10³⁰; the total number since the beginning of Earth, as 10⁴⁰, and the total number for the entire time of a habitable planet Earth as 10⁴¹. This is much larger than the total number of estimated stars (and Earth-like planets) in the observable universe as 10²⁴, a number which is more than all the grains of beach sand on planet Earth; but less than the total number of atoms estimated in the observable universe as 10⁸²; and the estimated total number of stars in an inflationary universe (observed and unobserved), as 10¹⁰⁰.

References

Drbogdan (talk) 15:27, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Not sure I can see the relevance for this article, really; still less the necessity. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:37, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Need to filter over 20,000 bytes of student additions (and a pile of deletions)

A student has today inserted a large amount of material and cut a substantial amount of existing stuff, for a total change of +20,000 bytes or around 10%. Students are likely to be correct about recent facts and scientific papers; they are less likely to be right about balance, formatting, repetition, and the appropriate home for different sorts of information. This article is at the top of a tree of articles on origin of life topics, so it should only contain a brief summary of each subtopic; any sizeable additions should be scanned to identify what should remain up here and what should be hived off to new or existing "main" or "further" articles, many of which are already linked in the article. Any suitably informed and skilled help filtering the "new" material, and indeed checking that the deleted materials were appropriately removed, would be much appreciated. Chiswick Chap (talk) 21:19, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

I'd recommend reading new additions and then evaluating rather than making claims based solely on the quantitative amounts of added/deleted content. I can appreciate the need for an open encyclopedia to be succinct, but when this content contains points that are irrelevant to the main topics surrounding Abiogenesis, and bias the narrative, this is where contributions seem needed (regardless of the status of a "good article" being made). To address the material that needs to be 'filtered', this includes the main theories of a "Suitable Geological Environment", which now have the two main hypotheses in science today, (1) hydrothermal vents, and (2) surface bodies of water. Perhaps theories within these subcategories, including iron-sulfur world, zinc world, and clay could find a home in another more appropriate article. I encourage all who are interested to look through recent additions. Brinaluvsrocks (talk) 03:56, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

No claims have been made, other than the undeniable fact that there is a large amount of student editing all at once, and editors will need to check it through. The suggestion to move those three old hypotheses to Alternative abiogenesis scenarios is a good one, done. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:06, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Enceladus - more possible life chemicals found?

NOTE: May not be worth addng to the main abiogensis article, but perhaps worth being aware of the latest related news about life chemicals found in other parts of the solar system?

On 14 December 2023, astronomers reported the first time discovery, in the plumes of Enceladus, moon of the planet Saturn, of hydrogen cyanide, a possible chemical essential for life as we know it, as well as other organic molecules, some of which are yet to be better identified and understood. According to the researchers, "these [newly discovered] compounds could potentially support extant microbial communities or drive complex organic synthesis leading to the origin of life."

References

Drbogdan (talk) 16:54, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Well of all the possible life-enhancing chemicals... HCN isn't the one I'd immediately have thought of.. Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:49, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Why does life care about survival?

If organic compounds thrown together and organizing themselves into living systems is the hypothesis, then where does the instinct of Self-preservation come from? The first living thing cannot have been indifferent toward returning to a non-living state, otherwise none of the marvelous later developments in the complexity and diversity of life could ever have been made. There is a preference for being alive which seems key to abiogenesis just as it pervades all of biology. How would organic compounds awaken to the fact that they are now alive and form an opinion that death is to be avoided? See the hard problem of consciousness I guess. 73.51.218.241 (talk) 10:55, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

A bacteria lives, but it does not know it lives. It does not have a mind, it does not have aware intentions, and so on. Humans have an aware choice to live as much as possible because those who didn't were erased from our heritage through natural selection. You're attributing anthropomorphic characteristics (mind, will, etc.) to millions of species which lack them. tgeorgescu (talk) 11:18, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Does a single cell organism seek sustenance and flee harm? While it does so now as a genetic inheritance, in the beginning why? Why recognize and choose continued existence as the preferred state? 73.51.218.241 (talk) 11:45, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Yes. This is Not a Forum, but natural selection requires no agency; if some individuals leave more offspring than others, their genes tend to take over. Chiswick Chap (talk) 11:48, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Protomembrane molecules produced in hydrothermal vents?

Possibly worthy studies? => On 10 January 2024, chemists reported studies finding that long-chain fatty acids were produced in ancient hydrothermal vents. Such fatty acids may have contributed to the formation of the first cell membranes that are fundamental to protocells and the origin of life.

References

Drbogdan (talk) 01:47, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

DrB, this is one of an infinite chain of ever more minor aliphatic detail. The key point, which was already evident, is that such molecules were available. Chiswick Chap (talk) 05:10, 14 January 2024 (UTC)