Talk:Anarchism

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A full list of talkpage archives can be found here:Talk:Anarchism/Archives

• Posts from Sept. 13 to Sept. 26 are now at Talk:Anarchism/Archive 43. Hogeye 18:01, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
• Posts from 2006-09-27 to 2006-10-06 are now at Talk:Anarchism/Archive 44. -- infinity0 00:02, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
• Posts from 2006-10-07 to 2006-11-03 are now at Talk:Anarchism/Archive 45. -- Donnacha 01:01, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
• Posts from 2006-11-03 to 2006-12-24 are now at Talk:Anarchism/Archive 46. Note however that there are old posts still in here: and with the exception of one last post, Archive 46 ends at December 10 or so. Jobjörn (Talk ° contribs) 23:37, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
• Posts from 2006-11-10 to 2007-01-05 are now at Talk:Anarchism/Archive 47. As there were no active discussions, I shoved it all away. Jobjörn (Talk ° contribs) 03:17, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Good article nomination

This article continues to have serious issues, beginning with the definition, which is inclusive to the extent of marginalizing the broadest sections of anarchists, historically and contemporarily. For many anarchists, the central concern is power, or coercion, rather than specifically "compulsory government". Stability is another concern, as this article is likely the rockiest one on all of Wikipedia. Though it appears to be in a peaceful period at the moment, more time needs to be given to see if such a peace will remain. Owen 20:39, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Good article template says: "If you have not contributed significantly to this article, feel free to evaluate it according to the good article criteria and then pass or fail the article as outlined on the candidates page." You have made 271 edits to this article, and I would say that that disqualifies you for deciding on GA nomination. NHF. -- Vision Thing -- 20:58, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I think that was intended to prevent people from upgrading articles they've contributed to, seeing as anyone is allowed to delist an article that doesn't meet the requirements. Still, I'll abide by the wording. Owen 21:43, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

How are you defining "coercion"? I don't think any self-described anarchist except for pacifists oppose the use of coercion. To retrain someone when he attacks you is coercion. Coercion can be aggressive or responsive. And don't forget the "propaganda by the deed" anarchists. They support the use of aggressive coercion. As far as "compulsory government" I think that makes sense. Proudhon even defined anarchy as "a form of government or constitution in which public and private consciousness, formed through the development of science and law, is alone sufficient to maintain order and guarantee all liberties. In it, as a consequence, the institutions of the police, preventive and repressive methods, officialdom, taxation, etc., are reduced to a minimum."Anarcho-capitalism 03:00, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

If this article has been nominated as a "good article", then Wikipedia is more of a fucking joke than is generally known. This article has biases and inaccuracies throughout it. The sections on anarcho-capitalism represent fantasies from users like Anarcho-capitalism, who is clearly using Wikipedia to normalize his insane take on this subject matter. The sections on real anarchism are seriously deficient. You would get the impression from reading this crappy article that anarcho-capitalism are significant parts of anarchism, when in fact mutualism is a small tendency and anarcho-capitalism continues to be an oxymoron pushed by a small group of ignorant people. There have been millions of anarcho-syndicalists, anarcho-communists, and other anarchists around the world, but you wouldn't get that impression from reading this article.

This article is biased, unbalanced and inaccurate. People need to understand that this article represents one of the main problems with Wikipedia, that individual zealot editors can control the content of an article simply because they don't have lives. Many anarchists have attempted to fix and improve this article, but a small group of anarcho-capitalists have more or less fucked up this article. Two big thumbs down to calling this piece of crap a "good article." Chuck0 18:31, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

The thing about Wikipedia is you're not allowed to push your POV on whether anarcho-capitalism is anarchism or not. It's difficult to censor information. You can try to censor individualist anarchism out of existence on your own web site, but not here. I find it really funny that you call the people who write about anarcho-capitalism "ignorant people," when a few weeks ago you thought anarcho-capitalism was the same as mutualism. You said to me, "A mutualist is what you should really be calling yourself, not the oxymoron known as "anarcho-capitalism." So who's ignorant about anarchism?Anarcho-capitalism 20:43, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Nice try, trying to paint me as a censor. You just look more and more ridiculous as time goes on. Your credibility level here is at an all-time low. I have no interest in removing information about individualist anarchism because that is a part of anarchism. You may conflate anarcho-capitalism with individualism, but that is rejected by people who call themselves individualists. I've never said, nor have I believed, that mutualism is the same as "anarcho-capitalism." Mutualism has long been part of anarchism, whereas "anarcho-capitalism" is a contradiction in terms. Some people who have called themselves anarcho-capitalists have figured out this contradiction, so some of them gravitated towards mutualism. I suggested that you call yourself a mutualist because some of your views follow their ideas. You also falsely claim that I've removed material about individualist anarchism from Infoshop. This is not the case at all. We have articles on the site by individualists, as well as more information about individualist anarchism. And when it comes to complaining about POV, try looking into the mirror sometime. Your take on these subjects represents a warped POV rather than any objective take on reality. Chuck0 17:29, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Yikes!!! Elodoth 21:49, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Let's look at another example about who's "ignorant about anarchism." You've been deleting large portions of the social anarchism article because you disagree that social anarchism is an unmbrella term which includes anarcho-communism, anarcho-syndicalism, etc. I quote from you, "Social anarchism is a subset of anarchism, but this entry has been written to make it seem like social anarchism is an umbrella for anarcho-communism and other tedencies." [1] Coming from someone who claims they are an expert an anarchism you continually show that you know nothing about it. Social anarchism is indeed "an umbrella for anarcho-communism and other tendencies." What is most astounding is that this is pointed out in the "Anarchist FAQ" that you host on YOUR "Infoshop" website! I quote from that FAQ "Are there different types of social anarchism? Yes. Social anarchism has four major trends -- mutualism, collectivism, communism and syndicalism." [2] Have you even bothered to read the thing? Granted, that FAQ has a lot of bad information in it, but it's correct on that widely known point. Unbelievable. Anarcho-capitalism 17:24, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

(Personal attack removed)

My comment here was censored by a Wikicrat. If anybody wants to read it, they can find it in the history files for this page. Chuck0 08:14, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

"Most Individualist Anarchists"

Stating that "most individualist anarchists" support capitalism poses several problems. (1) Who are the individualist anarchists? Does this include egoistic communists? Does this include altruistic mutualists? Is this an economic-sustem category or a personal-philosophy category? (2) What is private property in this context? Proudhon favored personal or small-group possession, and somewhere argues that we cannot apply one set of rules to products and another set of rules to the means of production. We might say that Proudhon, Tucker, et al. favor private possession over common possession or private property. (3) What is capitalism in this context? There are some rather overbroad definitions going around that describe communism as capitalism (if it is all voluntary) or anarcho-syndicalism as anarcho-capitalism (since the unions are market mechanisms). There are other definitions which focus on the separation of ownership from labor. In this case most classical individualist anarchists and many contemporary ones don't support capitalism. Jacob Haller 00:00, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

left-anarchist anti-fascism

Someone with a better knowledge of the history should probably complete the edit and supply sources, but the movements described include groups such as Anti-Racist Action and the antifa groups. Libertatia 01:36, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Split the topic!

I seriously think that this page is far too long. I think it should be split into smaller pages. (I did try and start this once, but a nasty edit war meant my work was undone and I couldn't be fucked finishing it.)

For example, the different schools could be cut down to a few sentences.

And the "issues" that have their own pages could be cut back as well.

This page should be providing a general overview. Not all the information.

Thoughts? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by AFA (talk • contribs) 16:49, 18 March 2007 (UTC).

Oh, didn't I sign it last time? Anyway, also the section on "Cultural phenomena" should be dropped into a new article and most of the content here deleted. 16:57, 18 March 2007 (UTC)16:57, 18 March 2007 (UTC)~~

Failed "good article" nomination

This article failed good article nomination. This is how the article, as of March 21, 2007, compares against the six good article criteria:

1. Well written?: Yes

2. Factually accurate?: Sorta

3. Broad in coverage?: Overly

4. Neutral point of view?: Sorta

5. Article stability? Sorta

6. Images?: Some

When these issues are addressed, the article can be resubmitted for consideration. If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to a GA review. Thank you for your work so far.

While I think this article is well written, it's accuracy, NPOVness and at times stability means that I don't think it is quite there yet. Also, it is far to fucking long! See my comments above regarding this.--AFA ^{http://www.revleft.com} 01:40, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

On Capitalism and "Anarcho-Capitalism"

And why "anarcho-capitalism" isn't anarchistic. People talk about how individualists and ancaps are the same, but I disagree. I'll explain. The big and most important difference is on the issue of property.

Individualists advocate a usage based system, if you don't use it, you lose it.

"Anarcho-capitalists" advocate something completely different, the unlimited accumulation.

Individualist see a world of worker and worker

The caps, worker and boss.

So, individualists advocate a system where it is possible to "get ahead", but not so far ahead that you can start oppressing someone. The system advocated also calls for worker-worker relationships, relationships between primary producers or (to use Marxian terminology) petite-bourgeois (assuming that they don't employ anyone).

The caps, a system where you can use a bit of land, and then leave it forever and continue to own it. Where you can accumulate control of resources, far beyond what you can use. This control over resources is important, with it you can order someone to do something, or else you won't give them something. You can have a boss-worker system.

The major difference between 'anarcho-capitalism' and individualist anarchism, is on the issue of property and economic systems. To an individualist anarchist, the right to property is limited to what one uses, and also does not include inheritance (but if a child were using it's parents house, then no one would be about to evict that child, as it is using the house). Anarcho-capitalists have a much more liberal property rights, including a right to own unlimited property. The anarcho-capitalist sees no problem with large accumulation of property, but the individualist anarchist sees this as leading to social ills.

Land is the classic example of property, it is only considered owned whilst it is in use, according to the individualist anarchist. However, the anarcho-capitalist considers land to continue to be owned by the first user (until transferred), even if that person no longer is using that land. For example if a house is empty and it is then occupied and then later (be it months or more) the 'owner' comes to claim it the libertarian would consider the 'owner' to be in the right to evict the occupier, and the anarchist would consider the occupier to have the right to resist the person trying to evict them.

While both support the free market, they have different definitions of what constitutes a free market. Anarcho-capitalists believe in the 'subjective theory of value', whilst individualist anarchists generally support a 'labour theory of value'. Individualist anarchists oppose all forms of usury, including rent and interest, while anarcho-capitalists support these as part of their property rights.1

Where anarcho-capitalists see a society of workers and capitalists, individualist anarchists see a society of workers and workers. This comes from the labour theory of value. If a person is hired and paid less for a product then what the hirer sells it for, then the hirer is profiting and thus being a capitalist.

The above paragraphs are from http://www.ids.org.au/~harrismw/writing/nozick_and_anarchy.doc which is a Word document (the .doc gives it away doesn't it). This is why anarcho-capitalism can not be considered a form of capitalism. Even if it is in the article, the point should be made that there are fundamental differences between "anarcho-capitalism" and other sorts (including mutualism and individualism).

Circular reasoning. Your premise is that to be an individualist anarchist you have to oppose ownership of land when it's not in use. You say that anarcho-capitalists support land ownership while not in use, and then conclude that therefore they're not individualist anarchists. But anarcho-capitalists are individualist anarchists. Prohibiting someone from owning land that he purchased if he's not using it is not required to be an individualist anarchist. The sufficent conditon of being an individualist anarchist is solely to be an individualist and an anarchist. Your argument is nonsensical.Anarcho-capitalism 02:21, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

No, your definition of individualist anarchist is. That is like saying, to be a class-war anarchist you simply need to be a class-war and an anarchist. Doesn't quite work does it? Individualist anarchists are people who believe X, X includes not owning land that they are not using. An-Caps are not individualist anarchists, because they believe that unlimited accumulation of property is good. Simply really. I'm not even arguing (here) whether they are anarchists or not. Or if they have been influenced by individualist anarchism or not. I'm simply saying that they are two different things, and as such should be clearly labelled as such. To do otherwise is crazy and definitely non NPOV. AFA ^{http://www.revleft.com} 02:37, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

What you're doing is circular. You're simply defining everyone who supports land ownership while not in use out of the anarchist fold. Not only are you defining out Murray Rothbard, but you're defining out old individualists like Lysander Spooner, as well as Max Stirner. None of those individuals oppose ownership of land while it's not in use, but they're all individualist anarchists. Anarcho-capitalism is one of the several forms that individualist anarchism takes. A sourced definition of individualist anarchism says that individualist anarchism holds that "individual conscience and the pursuit of self-interest should not be constrained by any collective body or public authority." (Heywood, Andrew, Key Concepts in Politics, Palgrave, ISBN 0-312-23381-7, 2000, p. 46). Clearly anarcho-capitalists fit that definition. Anarcho-capitalism

Also, you said caps are for "worker and boss." Please find an anarcho-capitalist who advocates "worker and boss." Anarcho-capitalists support the right to choose to be self-employed or to be employed by someone else, whichever the individual prefers.Anarcho-capitalism 02:33, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

"Right to be self-employed or employed by someone else"? Same thing as boss and worker. You're quibbling over synonyms here, A-C. It's like the difference between saying a "ham sandwich" and "two pieces of bread with slices of ham in-between". Come on now. Anyway, anarchism means "without rulers". Bosses are a form of ruler within the workplace and in terms of property. You can't be an "anarchist" if you support a form of rulership in the same way you can't be a fascist and not believe in government. In a regular capitalist society, property deeds and labor contracts are secured by the state, in an "anarcho"-capitalist society private capitalist own state-like powers to enforce such things (such as private police, private courts, private armies, all the trappings of the state). The absence of a formalized state is not equivalent to being anarchistic any more than standing in a garage makes you a Cadillac. A "state" is simply anything (even an individual) who has what is considered a legitimate monopoly of force and decision-making influence/power. I can be a state if I get to a position where I have my own private army and own all the property in my town. A private individual or firm can be a state in the same way. Full Shunyata 22:07, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

A "boss" isn't ruling over anyone. You don't have to do what your "boss" says. You can say "no" and walk right out the door. Go start your own business. Take the money you've saved up and buy a shoe polish kit and go peddle your services (or is the customer a boss too because he's telling you what to do? You just can't win can you? How oh how are you going to acheive your communist paradise?) If you have a job where you have a "boss" you're voluntarily allowing him to boss you around. That's anarchy. About monopoly of force, that concept only applies to force used on someone else's property. You may have a monopoly of force in your own home, but that doesn't make you a state. What would make you a state is if you had a monopoly of force in my home. Anarcho-capitalism 22:20, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

That isn't really relevant actually, the bit above is more relevant. AFA ^{http://www.revleft.com} 02:37, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

This is wrong also: "If a person is hired and paid less for a product then what the hirer sells it for, then the hirer is profiting and thus being a capitalist." The 19th century individualists said no such thing. There never pointed out any relation between how much a good sold for and what an employee's proper income was. In their eyes, an employee could actually receive too much income if it were a matter of how much a good sold for. They wanted individuals received an income in proportion to labor exerted, so that everyone who labored the same amount received the same income - no more, or less, income than that regardless of what price something sells for. Anarcho-capitalism 16:51, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Worst article on a subject I've seen

In terms of wikipedia accuracy, it is truly atrocious what a few capitalist vandals have done to this page. There isn't a soul in the entire anarchist movement that would say that capitalism "doesn't necessarily have to rejected." The rejection of capitalism is a given, how can you NOT be against one of the primary causes of oppression in the world when you're trying to create a new one free of hierarchy and compulsion? I've met thousands of anarchists in the past few years and not a single one has been a capitalist or has ever met any one who was a "free market" anarchist, just saying the words makes me shudder, what a horrible terrible concept. You are a laughing stock to real anarchists. Want to know why capitalists are NEVER seen anywhere? Not at protests, convergences, bookstores, news, anywhere at all? Because so called "anarcho" capitalists don't DO ANYTHING. They're completely uninvolved in any anarchist movement worldwide. There has been a very very limited number of writings which grossly fall short of understanding anarchism at all that have made this concept and I would argue that the only visible presence it has is through internet trolls, a few rediculous message boards, and a website or two. All things on the internet alone, I would add, that anarchists also aren't involved in. Sorry "anarcho" capitalists, but your "movement" simply doesn't exist. You're a "movement" internet trolls, constantly giving absurd electronic pressure to the idea that "We are anarchists too!" which you are not.

It really is kind of funny how infamous this wikipedia page has become. Whenever wikipedia is brought up in conversation amongst anarchists (This has personally happened to be many times without even initiating it), the response is, "Yeah, wikipedia is a good resource, but the Anarchism page sucks!" Wikipedia has shown to be inadequate for accurate information, given the Anarchism page as a frequent example. If anyone would remember this, a while ago on this page there were even some asshole "nationalist anarchists" that wanted to be included. Not only is nationalism less compatible with anarchism than sand with a parched tongue, but they were blatant racists! Nevertheless, they were given attention and some people who were trying to be "objective" actually gave them some credit for a few weeks before everyone editing the page realized, "Okay, let's finally acknowledge that these people are scum and have nothing in the least to do with anarchism and never could possibly at all" and that was that. But what an embarassment to wikipedia and a testament to the continued joke of this wikipedia page on Anarchism that they were given any attention at all!

If you are an anarchist, you KNOW that one of the consistent desires of yourself and other anarchists is to completely destroy capitalism beyond the power of memory, you KNOW that "anarcho" capitalism does not exist at all as a "movement" and has no prescence whatsoever at any events, protest, or convergences that anarchists have, and you KNOW that only through the tool of the internet have these idiots gained any credibility at all, sadly. So stop giving into absurd demands and assert what you know to be true, that sympathy for capitalism does NOT BELONG anywhere on a wikipedia page about anarchism!

By the way, the fact that this page was actually nominated as a "good article" is absurd, hilarious, and tragic (in the internet sense of the word). -Fatal 20:38, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

You said "There isn't a soul in the entire anarchist movement that would say that capitalism "doesn't necessarily have to rejected." If your conclusion is that therefore anarcho-capitalism isn't part of the "anarchist movement," then that's circular. Your premise is that anarcho-capitalism is not in the "anarchist movement" so you're not taking their opinions into account. Anarcho-capitalism 22:15, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

My understanding of anarchism, is that all variants could co-exist in a future anarchistic society. Any form that could not co-exist with (for example) communism, *can't* be anarchism. But that is just my opinionAFA ^{http://www.revleft.com} 10:20, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Removal

Someone removed the Black anarchism link from the anarchism sidebar. i suspect it was someone who didn't want any links to alphabetically precede "Capitalist." I don't know how to edit the side bar but someone who does should add the Black Anarchism link back in as it is an important article (thought it needs work) referenced in many other frequented pages, such as Black Panthers. Blockader 15:16, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Please see Template:Anarchism for the side bar and the discussion on the talk page. I have restored both Black anarchism and Nationalist anarchism.Harrypotter 22:17, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

individualist anarhcism and anarcho-capitalist section

Firstly, anarcho-capitalism is a form of individualist anarchism is POV. Many individualist anarchists denounce anarcho-capitalism. So I've moved it to its own section.

Secondly, the section is too large and presents unnecessary details which serve only to confuse the reader. It is like a badly written essay. It tells me nothing about the general ideas of anarcho-capitalism. Why is it focusing on specific issues like interest and rent?

Thirdly, why is there 30 sources betwen cited for one view? This is spam and also propaganda, because it makes it seem like it's somehow a fact and not just an opinion.

Fourthly, the "Inidivudalist anarchism in the Untied States" section is a specific issue which should not be in a general article on anarchism.

Fifthly, I am shocked why nobody else is removing these things I have pointed out. They severely unbalance the article, and this is blatantly obvious. Individualist anarchism in the US and anarcho-capitalism in no way represent any significant portion of the anarchist movement, so they should not take up a significant portion of the article. And why is nobody removing the 30-source spam? -- infinity0 12:28, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh, btw, I like the intro. Nice work. :) -- infinity0 12:38, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

That anarcho-capitalism is a form of anarchism is not "POV." What does this mean: "Many individualist anarchists denounce anarcho-capitalism." That's circular. You're first assuming that anarcho-capitalists aren't individualist anarchists, then saying that individualist anarchists denounce anarcho-capitalism. But, anarcho-capitalists don't denounce themselves. Anyway, who are these "many individualist anarchists"? You're making that up. The reason there are 30 sources is to head off people like you coming in and saying that anarcho-capitalism is not an individualist form of anarchism. The sources are there. So, I'm restoring. Anarcho-capitalism 13:48, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

The title "Individualist anarchism in the United States" though is kind of strange. I think I can straighten that out.. Anarcho-capitalism 14:06, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I renamed it "19th century in the United States." The individualist anarchism that originated in the U.S. is historically very important, so it shouldn't be deleted. Anarcho-capitalism 14:16, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Sourced POV is still POV. Don't misquote or misrepresent me; I did not say that anarcho-capitalism isn't a form of anarchism; I said that anarcho-capitalism is a form of individualist anarchism is POV. You have no proof of your assertion that "anarcho-capitalism is a form of anarchism is not "POV."". Your sources are all written by people, which means that this is a point of view.

If that's what you mean by "POV" then everything in the article is POV since all the sources are written by people. So what you're saying is ridiculous. Anarcho-capitalism 18:00, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Secondly, the section is too large. You haven't answered my point above about overweighting. And the information is very very badly worded. It reads like a high school essay, a bunch of random sentences bunched together. It has lots of confusing waffle and space-fillers. I am adding NPOV tags and cleanup tags to both sections. -- infinity0 16:22, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

"The 30 sources are there to head off people like [me]?" You mean people interested in keeping propaganda crap off the article? If your assertions are so truthful, you wouldn't need 30 sources from random obscure authors to show your point. -- infinity0 16:24, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

30 sources is more than enough to show that anarcho-capitalism is considered a form of anarchism, and an individualist form. Without those sources people like you would come and and delete anarcho-capitalism with the silly POV-pushing claim that it's not a form of anarchism.Anarcho-capitalism 18:00, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

The above statement is logically wrong. "30 sources" mean absolutely nothing, because those 30 sources are not a random sample, and are therefore unrepresentative of anarchism or general opinion. Why are they not a random sample? Because those 30 sources have been hand-picked and selected by you and other anarcho-capitalist editors. You have neglected to mention any other sources, such as AFAQ and the vast majority of the contemporary modern anarchist movement, which denounce anarcho-capitalism at least as a form of individualist-anarchism, and often as a form of anarchism altogether. -- infinity0 11:56, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

One more note just for anyone who reads this. Everytime I try to clean up the content and compact it down so it's NOT a bunch of waffle, you or some other anarcho-capitalist reverts it straight back. The content is shit. It doesn't do any benefit to anarcho-capitalism either. Why don't you re-write it so it's more compact and more reader-friendly? -- infinity0 16:27, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. Anarcho-capitalism 18:00, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Section on anarcho-capitalism is "focusing" on interest because that is differential point between it and other forms of individualist anarchism. Section on "Individualist anarchism in the Untied States" (or section with that content but with different name) is needed because of Tucker, Spooner and explanation of individualist anarchism in general. -- Vision Thing -- 19:06, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

OK, fair point. However, it seems a bit over-done, and too wordy. The US-ind-anarchism section is just way too long compared to the other sections, and basically, is boring. Could you condense it down? I am going to add clean-up templates and the occasinal inline NPOV marker. Please don't remove them, as they are valid points. -- infinity0 11:56, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Individualist anarchism in the Unites States

I think the old section title helped distinguish between market individualism (Warren, Tucker, et al.) and egoism (Stirner, Tucker, et al.). Despite the overlap these are not the same tradition. Jacob Haller 20:04, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Culling the source-spam

Here is a list of ths sources used to support the opinion that "ancapism is a form of ind-anarchism". I am going to be culling these based on how well-known they are, and I am going to check that by an amazon.com search. I will only be leaving a maximum of 5 sources to be inserted into the actual article. -- infinity0 12:02, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

• Alan and Trombley, Stephen (Eds.) Bullock, The Norton Dictionary of Modern Thought, W. W. Norton & Company (1999), p. 30
  • Amazon.com Sales Rank: #952,632 in Books, 2 left in stock. - delete
• Outhwaite, William. The Blackwell Dictionary of Modern Social Thought, Anarchism entry, p. 21, 2002.
  • Amazon.com Sales Rank: #639,443 in Books - potential keep
• Bottomore, Tom. Dictionary of Marxist Thought, Anarchism entry, 1991.

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #39,015 in Books - potential keep

• Barry, Norman. Modern Political Theory, 2000, Palgrave, p. 70
  • Does not seem to be on amazon - delete
• Adams, Ian. Political Ideology Today, Manchester University Press (2002) ISBN 0-7190-6020-6, p. 135
  • Amazon.com Sales Rank: #1,942,199 in Books - delete
• Grant, Moyra. Key Ideas in Politics, Nelson Thomas 2003 ISBN 0-7487-7096-8, p. 91
  • Amazon.com Sales Rank: #4,190,711 in Books - delete
• Heider, Ulrike. Anarchism: Left, Right, and Green, City Lights, 1994. p. 3.
  • Amazon.com Sales Rank: #1,390,056 in Books - only available from third party sellers, delete
• Ostergaard, Geoffrey. Resisting the Nation State - the anarchist and pacifist tradition, Anarchism As A Tradition of Political Thought. Peace Pledge Union Publications
  • Essay; not major - delete
• Avrich, Paul. Anarchist Voices: An Oral History of Anarchism in America, Abridged Paperback Edition (1996), p. 282
  • Amazon.com Sales Rank: #765,250 in Books - potential keep
• Sheehan, Sean. Anarchism, Reaktion Books, 2004, p. 39
  • Can't find on amazon.com, possibly because of vague title, but delete until evidence of notability is given.
• Tormey, Simon. Anti-Capitalism, One World, 2004. pp. 118-119
  • Same point as above
• Raico, Ralph. Authentic German Liberalism of the 19th Century, Ecole Polytechnique, Centre de Recherce en Epistemologie Appliquee, Unité associée au CNRS, 2004.
  • Can't find on amazon.com - delete
• Offer, John. Herbert Spencer: Critical Assessments, Routledge (UK) (2000), p. 243
  • Amazon.com Sales Rank: #3,201,360 in Books - delete - for some reason this book costs $1,235.00
• Levy, Carl. Anarchism. MS Encarta (UK).
  • MS Encarta is relatively well-used, possible keep
• Heywood, Andrew. Politics: Second Edition, Palgrave (2002), p. 61
  • Amazon.com Sales Rank: #386,027 in Books - keep

Sources stating anarcho-capitalism as a form of anarchism in general:

• Sylvan, Richard. Anarchism. A Companion to Contemporary Political Philosophy, editors Goodin, Robert E. and Pettit, Philip. Blackwell Publishing, 1995, p.231
  • Amazon.com Sales Rank: #266,380 in Books - keep
• Perlin, Terry M. Contemporary Anarchism. Transaction Books, New Brunswick, NJ 1979, p. 7
  • Amazon.com Sales Rank: #3,306,685 in Books - delete
• DeLeon, David. The American as Anarchist: Reflections of Indigenous Radicalism, Chapter: The Beginning of Another Cycle, Johns Hopkins University Press, 1979, p. 117
  • Amazon.com Sales Rank: #2,149,729 in Books - delete
• Brown, Susan Love, The Free Market as Salvation from Government: The Anarcho-Capitalist View, Meanings of the Market: The Free Market in Western Culture, edited by James G. Carrier, Berg/Oxford, 1997, p. 99 (Brown notes that the individualist anarchists "saw themselves as socialists" and rejected capitalism, p. 104)
  • Can't find on amazon.com, possibly because of ridiculously long title, delete until evidence of notability is given.
• Kearney, Richard. Continental Philosophy in the 20th Century, Routledge (UK) (2003), p. 336 * Sargent, Lyman Tower. Extremism in America: A Reader, NYU Press (1995), p. 11
  • Amazon.com Sales Rank: #769,204 in Books - possible keep
• Dahl, Robert Alan. Democracy and Its Critics. Yale University Press (1991), p. 38
  • Amazon.com Sales Rank: #321,909 in Books - keep
• Goodwin, Barbara. Using Political Ideas, Fourth Edition, John Wiley & Sons (1987), p. 137 (Goodwin says, "Although many anarchists today still subscribe to the values of Bakunin and Kropotkin, there are two new, divergent currents of anarchist thinking. One is anarcho-capitalism, a form of libertarian anarchism which demands that the state should be abolished and that private individuals and firms should control social and economic affairs....Their true place is in the group of right-wing libertarians....Many who call themselves anarchists today preserve some of the older doctrines...This preference was evident in the student uprisings of 1968 in France and the USA, which were largely anarchist in spirit and with which many of the libertarian left associate themselves." pp. 137-138)
  • Amazon.com Sales Rank: #699,197 in Books - keep - although reading the quote from it, I see it has been loveily misascibred by whoever wrote this section as a source "stating anarcho-capitalism as a form of anarchism in general", when it says Their true place is in the group of right-wing libertarians.

We've been through this before. The source does indeed say they are right-wing libertarians. But that is not saying they're not anarchists. The source is just saying that anarchists are split between right libertarians and left libertarians, and anarcho-capitalists are in the right libertarian sector. I noticed you deleted the sentence about "libertarian left" from the quote in the references, in the article. That's very sneaky. You're obscuring the point that the source is making. Anarcho-capitalism 01:33, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

The source is in opposite spirit to the claimed attribution. It says ancapism stems from anarchism, but it says it's closer to right-libertarianism than anarchism. As for the deletion, I was cutting the source. I have no idea what is somehow wrong or "sneaky" with the deletion you mentioned. -- infinity0 10:47, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

It absolutely does not say that it's closer to right-libertarianism than anarchism. It says it IS right-libertarianism AND, it IS anarchism. The book says there is right-libertarian anarchism and left-libertarian anarchism. It says anarcho-capitalism's true place is in the left libertarian wing but in the right libertarian wing of anarchism.Anarcho-capitalism 12:36, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Good day, y'all. I will be deleting the ones marked "delete". -- infinity0 12:19, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Ahh looks like I was generous and left 9 in. Still, much better than having 30, with some of them (eg. the last one) being mis-attributed to be in favour of the said view. -- infinity0 12:27, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Keeping sources based on book sales doesn't make any sense to me. Usually, the more scholarly a book or article the lower are the sales. And, again, the last source was not "mis-attibuted." The source is just saying some anarchists are right libertarians and some anarchists are left libertarians. Anarcho-capitalists are right libertarians. I think why you didn't understand this is you already have the preconceived opinion that right libertarians aren't anarchists. So when you hear "their true place is in the group of right-wing libertarians" you're thinking that that is a denial that they're anarchists. But, being a right libertarian and an anarchist is not mutually exclusive. The source certainly doesn't consider them mutually exclusive. Anarcho-capitalism 01:36, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Cutting spam is a good thing. -- infinity0 02:02, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I also see you added something from Anarchist FAQ, which is simply an online thing. I don't think that's a permissible source. You give a quote from it "As an added bonus, some genuine individualist anarchists appeared, refuting the claim that "anarcho"-capitalism was merely a form of "updated" individualist anarchism." I've found that FAQ to be very unreliable and even dishonest. Who are these "genuine" individualist anarchists that say anarcho-capitalism is not a newer individualist form of anarchism? It doesn't list anyone. I strongly believe that they're just making this up. This is why we have rules for what is admissible as a source on Wikipedia. This FAQ just isn't going to cut it.Anarcho-capitalism 01:48, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

It's permissible. See my own RfAr. -- infinity0 02:02, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Show me exactly where it says it's permissible.Anarcho-capitalism 02:04, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Look what I found: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. By insisting that only facts, assertions, theories, ideas, claims, opinions, and arguments that have already been published by a reputable publisher may be published in Wikipedia, the no-original-research and verifiability policies reinforce one another." [3] That FAQ is not published by a reputable publisher because it's not published at all.Anarcho-capitalism 02:06, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

A source doesn't have to be print-published to be notable. It's hosted on most major anarchist websites, everybody knows about it. You shouldn't attack things ("they made it up") you don't know anything about; besides, I could say the same for your essays and rantings. -- infinity0 02:11, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Besides, all major anarchist websites are reputable publishers. -- infinity0 02:13, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but that won't do it. Anarchist websites are definitely not "reputable publishers."Anarcho-capitalism 02:16, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, thanks for pointing me to your RfAr. I searched for it and look what I found. You're a convicted edit warrior and on probation. You just violated your probation. The ruling says: "Infinity0 is placed on standard revert parole for one year. He may not perform more than one content revert per page per day and every content revert must be accompanied by discussion on the relevant talk page. Passed 6 to 0 at 11:46, 1 July 2006 (UTC)" [4] Anarcho-capitalism 02:24, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, it looks like you didn't quite violate it. But you should watch yourself.Anarcho-capitalism 02:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Anarchist websites are definitely "reputable publishers". They have a wide following, and people read what they write with interest. They do not lie or make wild accusations, such as you do ("they made it up"). A FAQ which is hosted on the vast majority of them as a collective resource is certainly useful for wikipedia. My arbitrators acknowledge this here: Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Infinity0/Proposed_decision#An_Anarchist_FAQ and the opposers only oppose the motion because it is irrelevant to my RfAr, not because the point is invalid.

You should stop trying to smear other editors. That has nothing to do with the sources. AFAQ is more well-known and highly regarded than any one of the 30 sources you are preventing me from deleting. It has been cited in published resources - see its page - and it is scheduled to be published in book form this year by AK Press.

As for the sources, I have repeated time and again that they are biased. You answer this with "no they are not". I respond by pointing out the unnotability of these sources, and include MUCH MORE notable sources (Noam Chomsky is more notable than all those other authors put together), and you delete them, and call me the POV-pusher. -- infinity0 10:45, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with infinity0. Anarcho-capitalism does not appear to be heeding WP:AGF. Whether or not he has been on RFAr before is not relevant to me. I have not read up on this entirely, but it appears that you are using 30 sources as a citation for a small number of points; that is very excessive. I agree that it should be cut down to that infinity0 suggested. If you are arguing about bias, than I suggest you read WP:NPOV and rewrite most of the disputed text. - Zero1328 _Talk? 11:07, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I found your discussion listed at Third Opinions, but as I'm not in the best position to study this subject throughly, I will leave it listed so that other editors may contribute. Firstly, the sources: should there not be quality rather than quantity? One strong source that is reliable, noteworthy and respected in its field is far more effective than innumerable mediocre sources. Such sources may legitimately be used multiple times if they refer to multiple statements, without weakening the references. Therefore, I support Infinity0's effort to trim them down. However... he/she is not going about it in quite the right way: I have to agree with Anarcho-capitalism's point that quality and reliability of sources cannot be judged according to popularity. If you are in fact using reader's reviews (the more accomplished ones at least) to make these judgements, then that might be more justifiable. Infinity0, your intention is correct, but your method needs improvement in order to win your case. Secondly, civility: both of you have, in different ways, got too close to making this personal. An editor's past misdemeanors are not particularly relevant to a current debate and should certainly not be raised as ammunition. Try not to let them influence your opinion of another editor. Next, sources: online sources are perfectly capable of being notable (for many subjects, they are the primary sources) but they each must be judged on their own merits. Bias must be set aside (as it always should) and any major source may need to be assessed by an expert third party if consensus cannot be reached. I suggest that you seek a suitable third party who can be impartial and knows the subject and its published works, websites and so on. I do not have the necessary knowledge, but if I had to assess the source in question, I would ask whether it is itself capable of bias and whether it is respected, or likely to be respected, by its peers. Adrian M. H. 18:17, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Third Opinion, while again leaving this listed for others to comment on. Something useful might be to check some of the world's top universities suggested literature on the subject. Oxford for example, offered the course "Ideologies and Political Traditions in Modern Europe", for which the literature can be found on page 10 of this page. Do of course read any books before adding them, and check multiple lists as they're subject to personal and regional bias. Comparing these lists for like ten universities should do to give a good impression on which books are considered the standard of the field. --User:Krator (t c) 20:47, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

MFD comments requested

Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Anarcho-capitalism. Comments requested. -- infinity0 01:55, 10 April 2007 (UTC)