Talk:Bronze Soldier of Tallinn

Excavations

"Amid political controversy the Estonian government started excavations of the buried people." Did they? As far as I know, it was postponed until the situation calms down. Or am I just behind with the news? --82.131.12.35 22:06, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

You are right. The excavations were postponed after the riots started. 84.50.11.236 22:07, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I understand that - so far - only the bronze statue has been moved to a secret location. Are there plans to move the stone wall as well, or is it going to be demolished? Camptown 22:43, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Both the statue and its foundation have been removed. This is what the tent currently contains: http://etv24.ee/failid/73926_01.jpg Picture courtesy of the Estonian National Television —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.196.91.249 (talk) 22:57, 27 April 2007 (UTC).

nice picture. EvilAlex 23:16, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Who these buried people are? How they died? Were they fighting a) against German forces (which started war against Soviet Union) or b) were they fighting to occupy state of Estonia? As it's said, Estonians made guerilla attacks against Soviets by forest brothers during 1944-1948 even when German troops were withdrawn from Baltic countries. Maybe they died during those days? Latest Estonian soldier who was fighting against soviets was discovered and killed in 1978!! So lot's of things for historians to investigate.

What shall we call this?

"Excavations" - "Removal" - "Relocation" - "Demolition" - what shall we call this?

I would call it demolition, as it is was a place of worship, and thus can not be "relocated". The Estonian government initially called their secret operation "excavations", but it was clear from the begining that the intention was to dismantle and later possibly relocate the statue (minus Soviet symbols?).

What eventually happened (after the nightly emergency meeting) was demolition. This is the word used by Estonian Minister of Defense Jaak Aaviksoo in the statement broadcast (and translated) by BBC. -- Petri Krohn 23:35, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

What was the Estonian word? All I heard used was "teisaldamine" and "osadeks võtmine", which mean relocation and dismantling, respectively. Either way, someone mistranslating or misusing a word does not change the fact that nothing has been demolished, the masonry was dismantled and removed with the intact bronze statue, to be relocated to the Military Cemetery in Tallinn. Demolition implies irreversible destruction, and other than your esoteric notions of materialist mysticism, nothing has been destroyed (apart from countless window panes, but that's neither here nor there). Unigolyn 05:48, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

And, a few hours ago Ansip again said the statue was in one piece. --82.131.56.56 17:38, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

As long as the statue is in one piece or in such a state that it can be restored to its original condition it has not been demolished. It has been removed, it is being relocated, and excavations is to be conducted at the site. That is at least how I see it. Uhu219 11:33, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

My edits to intro - who's point of view?

I made some edits to the intro, including exhanging the order of Monument to the Liberators of Tallinn with Tõnismäe Monument. The statue is something revered by a group of people, one could even say it was a place of worship. When writing about sacred objects and people (saints) one should primarly cover why they are important to the people who worship them. Atheist should not have their criticism of religion placed first in the introduction of articles on churches and religion. Critisism should be included, but only after the issues primary importance is explaned from point of view of those that find it important. -- Petri Krohn 00:24, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

"One could even say". Well, yes, you've been saying it a lot. Your ridiculous pet theory isn't grounds for encyclopedic content. The official names for monuments are decided de jure by the governments under whose internationally recognized sovereignty they lie, not by appeals to dubious politicized reinterpretations. If you want an edit war, you're on. Unigolyn 01:04, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

As the monument no longer exist, it is irrelevant what the Estonian goverment decided to call it. -- Petri Krohn 01:23, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

That's your POV. The monument wasn't destroyed, it is being relocated. Consult a dictionary. Unigolyn 04:03, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Increased levels of violence?

Unigolyn removed the phrase "increased levels of violence" from the intro, replacing it with references to alcohol consumption. The reports (BBC) from tonight include the use of:

1. Molotov cocktails
2. Rubber bullets
3. Watercannon

I definitely belive these are an escalation of violence. -- Petri Krohn 02:14, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

The BBC article seems erroneous. Molotov cocktails and water cannons were used and deployed but not used respectively on Thursday and the image seems to be from Thursday night as well. Neither the Estonian nor the Finnish press has reported Molotov cocktails, nor have I seen anything of the sort in any of the TV news coverage. Regardless of the accuracy of the article, there was certainly not an escalation of the violence, as there were: a) less protestors b) less police clashes c) no deaths or serious injuries d) a dozen stores looted instead of the 99 on Thursday e) order was restored an hour earlier. As far as alcohol consumption goes, the demographics of the rioters are reportedly teenagers and young adults instead of the more widely age-variable group of political protesters seen on Thursday, and instead of overt political protests the majority of them preoccupied themselves with breaking into liquor stores and setting fire to trash cans. Unigolyn 04:03, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I find BBC most reliable, aas they have been reporting live from Tallinn through out the night. I will check on the dates of Molotov cocktails. This I know: They were not reported yesterday. neither were rubber bullets. Also use of water cannon was denied and removed from article. Tonight I have seen TV coverage of both rubber bulllets and watercannon. -- Petri Krohn 05:42, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

"This I know" is a really shoddy argument. Your claim that violence escalated is baseless regardless of whether the cops used truncheons or rubber bullets. Less people, less violence, less damage, and less injuries overall != escalation. Unigolyn 05:57, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

In the meantime, I once more saw the BBC report from this morning. It makes clear that 1, 2 & 3 were used on 28 April. It also mentiones the use of stones. On 27th the protestors only broke windows. On 28th they used Molotov cocktails. This is a weapon, making this an instance of armed resistance. You can of course say that this is not protest or resistance, but drunkenness. Whatever, it is more violent. -- Petri Krohn 06:27, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Please, tone down the hyperbole and misuse of the English language. On both nights they used stones against police, also bottles. These are all weapons. And what exactly were they "resisting"? The efforts of the police to stop them from breaking into stores? Let me get this straight, if I break into a store, and the cops try to stop me, and I throw heavy objects at them, I'm engaging in "armed resistance"? Unigolyn 06:49, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

If you take up arms for a political cause, then it may be. What might the political cause be? Up to now it would have been citizenship for everybody. Today the protesters seem to shouting "Rossija! Rossija!", so I do not know if Estonian citizenship interests these people anymore. -- Petri Krohn 06:57, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

P.S. This is an interesting issue, but unfortunately talk pages are not for discussing politics. -- Petri Krohn 07:00, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

We're not discussing politics. We're discussing your weasel tactics of introducing loaded terms into an encyclopedic article to further your pro-Russian POV. "Armed resistance" has well-known political connotations aside from it's purely descriptive meaning, and it is never used in cases of drunken rioters attacking police with rocks. You don't use loaded terms like "state secret", "armed resistance" or "demolish" unless you can back them up with multiple reliable news sources reporting the same. For the love of Stalin, stop it already. Unigolyn 02:38, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

What about police violence, i've heard there has been a lot of that too (not as much as by rioters, but i've heard that innocent people have been beaten up. 84.250.45.172 11:07, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Nobody is being beaten, not even the rioters. They are just thrown to ground if they don't obey the commands of the police. 84.50.11.236 12:59, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, those who broke into the stores and pillaged were beaten by the police. But not those who just shouted.--82.131.56.56 15:02, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Is that what they told you on the news? Because i have a few online buddies who live in Estonia, both estonians and russians, and they were there and whitnessed (and vidoed) the abuse of power by police. They'll probably post the stuff on Youtube when stuff calms down. 88.192.33.246 15:42, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

This is clearly propaganda. Estonian police were extremely careful not to abuse their power and there's not a single fact confirming any abuse. Rumours only. 84.50.11.236 09:04, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah? Well than watch this video clip, starting at approx 0:45, 5 police officers walk up to 2 14-year old girls and start beating them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdudZQdOrhg Of course, they are clearly guilty of vandalizing public property and attacking a police officer. Yep, that's what it looks like. 88.192.33.246 13:02, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

If you watch closely, you notice the police is not holding a club in its hand once he has hit them once. Well he is holding the club at first, but he only hits them once, which couldnt be considered beating. They are not letting people gather in the central town at all to prevent the destruction of the previous night.--82.131.85.6 13:51, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh, sorry about that, i didn't know that it's allowed in Estonia to hit innocent underage bystanders with a nightstick, as long as you hit them only once... 88.192.33.246 13:58, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Are you sure theyre underaged at all? Dont seem so for me. --82.131.85.6 13:59, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I dunno, they look smaller than the cops. And it doesn't really matter, what matters is that police violence is not just propaganda.88.192.33.246 14:05, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Women usually are smaller than men. Especially, considering the men are cops(=athletic), who also have large helmets. Things have gotten recently out of hand, and some violence is inevitable. But the police can make a difference. They either punish people a bit for gathering in the first place, in which case the violence is minimal; or they let people gather and suffer mass psychosis (like they pretty much did on the first night), in which case uncontrollable violence emerges, that is, looting and damaging the nearby shops and also the murder of that Dimitri. It is not meaningless police violence. The damage that would be caused without such small measures(like hitting someone once with a club) would be massively larger.--82.131.85.6 14:15, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh so you're saying everything could have been prevented if they hit every woman in town before moving the statue? Now i don't know much about Estonian laws, but if hitting someone with a stick just once is allowed, and 2 people talking to each other is an "illegal gathering", that makes me not want to visit that country :P. BTW what you say if we move this conversation to another place, because this thread is getting kinda thin.88.192.33.246 14:22, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

That's right, you don't know anything about Estonian laws, nor do you know anything about police procedure or the realities of crowd control. You are not an expert and a brief Youtube video is so out of context I doubt any expert would hasten to draw conclusions from it. This is an encyclopedia, not an opinion forum - you don't get to decide what constitutes police brutality. Also, "innocent bystanders" hardly applies in the middle of riot. The police issued orders to vacate the area, not doing so is illegal in any civilized state. Unigolyn 20:12, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

K, check my talk page for my MSN and put me in you contact list right away so i can delete my MSN address from the wiki again (im 82.131.85.6, but im too lazy to log in, usually). --Haigejobu 14:45, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

State secrecy?

He also removed the reference to state secrecy. I saw an article on this in Postimees (or was it Eesti Päevaleht?) yesterday. I tried to relocate the article, but could not find it among hundreds of new articles on the demonstrations. Also my skils in Googling in Estonian are not that good. Somebody please help on finding a reference. -- Petri Krohn 02:14, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I'll find it for you if you give more details on what it was about. EDIT: A quick search on both EPL and PM for "riigisaladus" came up with nothing past August 2006, when a Russian colonel was convicted for selling state secrets (in Russia). What did the article say about these "state secrets"? I've been following the story for a while and I'm hard pressed to think what exactly they could be hiding. Unigolyn 04:09, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I do not think they used the word "riigisaladus", maybe "saladus". The article said that the government had desided that all details of the operations are strictly secret. (Maybe state secrecy has demanded the removal of the article from the web :-) -- Petri Krohn 05:47, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

What operation? There was no secrecy about the archaeological excavations and ultimate relocation of the monument and any remains that were found. If you're talking about the security surrounding the excavation and the impromptu removal of the monument following the protests/rioting, well duh. Police ANYWHERE don't offer such information to the public. It's not "state secrecy", it's common sense and common practice. Do you think the LAPD broadcast their tactical information on public radio during the Rodney King riots? Frankly, I'm getting tired of your insistence on inundating this article and this discussion with countless red herrings and weasel-wording wherever you possibly can. Just stop the pretense and call Estonia a Neo-Nazi police state. Unigolyn 05:55, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I must agree with Unigolyn. Please don't make any further such controversial edits and claims unless you can back them up with a reference. DLX 06:30, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Petri, the link you found [1] states, that the timeline will not be revealed to the general public, because they are afraid of violence/vandalism. State secret means something entirely different. So I am going to remove that sentence again, hopefully for good now. DLX 09:08, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

The article uses the word riigisaladus, in the sentence "teemad kuuluvad riigisaladuse alla". Maybe the issue here is that state secret in Wikipedia is something even more secret than riigisaladus. -- Petri Krohn 09:40, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

The article says that after the national security council adjourned, their press corps' reply to press inquiries were that "topics discussed at the national security council are consider state secrets", which is completely normal practice and isn't used exclusively for the Bronze Soldier issue. Almost immediately, government members detailed their intentions but did not divulge exact dates, which he said had not been decided yet. Unigolyn 02:30, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I spent several days in Estonia just before the riots started. Every newspaper and every news broadcast told about the beginning of the excavations. All talk about secrecy is pure BS!

--88.112.92.36 13:14, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Opening paragraph wording and times

Petri,

1. Please back up "escalated" violence claim with numbers of more property damage, greater number of rioters, more injuries, or more arson. 2. Please back up "protest" instead of "riot". Who was protesting what and where? Obviously the root cause of the continuing violence is the removal of the monument, but general mayhem does not a protest make. 3. Please stop weaseling with semantics. Timelines are important in the opening paragraph because there has not been round-the-clock rioting, and police have restored order shortly after midnight on both days. Also, the second riot started on Friday the 27th, not Saturday the 28th. So far, only 90 minutes of the 28th had riots, as of this writing, 8 hours have been riot-free. Unigolyn 06:26, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Fixed date, April 28 was a leftover from an earlier edit. -- Petri Krohn 06:38, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I'm content with the new wording. Please, please try to justify every adjective you use on an evidentiary basis so we can avoid "escalating" and the like in the future. Unigolyn 06:40, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Memorial theme

It says in the article that the monument was created in 1947 originally as an official memorial to Soviet soldiers who died fighting in World War II. The theme was later changed, stating "For those fallen in World War II". Was the "theme" changed after the independence in 1991 (when the eternal flame was removed)? And, if so, was it a part of a compromise to keep the monument at all. How did this affect the message signs on the memorial? Camptown 07:34, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it was altered after 1991. However, the statue itself carries soviet symbolics, so the new label didn't change much for most of its opponents. --90.190.56.10 07:59, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Disputed section

The long section about regaining independence, demographics and possible causes of the conflict is written not from a neutral viewpoint and is inaccurate as well. we should have here only things directly connected with the events, e.g that Russians regard it as a monument of the liberators and most of the Estonians view the statue as the symbol of the long and bloody Soviet occupation. But citizenship issues should _not_ be dealt with here _in detail_. 90.190.56.10 07:47, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

The background, demographics section contains many false statements. Please remove it, correct the false statements or mark it as disputed. Suva 10:25, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Reason to Revolt: Discrimination of Russians in Estonia

I think these protests have very little to do with the statue itself, and a lot more to do with how the russian speaking people in Estonia (and the other Baltic countries) are today being discriminated and harassed in many ways by the Estonian State, almost apartheid like... That is the real background for their anger; The governments removal of the statue was just an other example of this tendency. Bronks 08:02, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Very interesting argumentt; though it has nothing to do in the encyclopedia. So it should be removed. 90.190.56.10 08:05, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

That is not true: What is the social cause of the riots? It should too be in an encyclopeic article. The disputes around this statue today have very little to do with what crimes Stalinism did in Estonia 50 years ago, but everything to do with what the Estonia State is doing today. Bronks 08:08, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

So what is Estonia doing today? Demanding ability to communicate in Estonian for citizenship, is that really so bad? No, it is more about that some Russians have been raised in Stalinist spirit, both by their parents and the Soviet Propaganda. No matter what Estonia would do, their way of thinking doesn't change. It is very connected to what happened 60 years ago.--82.131.56.56 09:16, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Apartheid in an EU member state? This is hard to believe. In any case, just how does violent rioting and looting help Russian minority to fight discrimination? If anything, it completely undermines their cause and creates a precedent for tough police measures. They should learn to engage in dialog and use consensus-building mechanisms, which are readily available under Estonian Constitution and EU umbrella. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rombaba (talk • contribs) 00:14, 29 April 2007 (UTC).

Replay to the two anonymous editors. This is not suppose to be a debate on who is right and who is wrong! The point I'm making is that there could be social issues in the background behind the protest against the removal of this statue. Bronks 09:41, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I've added a wikilink to the Baltic Russians article in the intro; it mentions some of these issues. Esn 10:17, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

On second thought, History of Russians in Estonia might be a better fit. Esn 10:18, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

POV tag?

There is {{pov}} tag on the page. I cannot find related dicussion on this page. In fact, I can not even guess what kind of POV is implied: Russian or Estonian? As the article is on the front page, I am removing the tag in one minute. If you disagree, restore the tag, but write your grievances here. Better yet, instead of taging the whole article, place {{fact}} and other tags to individual paragraphs. -- Petri Krohn 09:04, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

It seems like editors from both "sides" are tagging the article... Camptown 09:37, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Then I guess it is OK to remove the tag. -- Petri Krohn 09:41, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

let's try to keep this as neutral as possible, that is by representing both sides opinions —Borism 17:29, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Schroeder's comment

Flag of Germany Germany - Gerhard Schroeder, former chancellor of Germany, called the action insulting to Russians who died fighting fascism: "the way Estonia dealt with the memory of those soldiers shows bad taste and disrespect."[33]

this is marked as German response. But Schroeder is on the paycheck of Gazprom, so i dont think this should be marked as the official response of Germany? --82.131.56.56 10:46, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Sure, a Putin ally who joined Gazprom shortly after leaving office, a major political scandal in Germany.... As we may not know in what capacity he speaks (Gazprom, Putin, on his own behalf etc), I changed the national template to a flag image instead (after all he is German). Camptown 11:54, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I might as well mention that I wasn't sure exactly where to add it when I put it in, but was encouraged that the section "political reaction" wasn't titled "official political reaction". I'm glad that it has been moved to another section, though perhaps the main one should be retitled somehow? Schroeder's statement is also a "political reaction" after all, even if it may not be the official response of Germany. Esn 12:50, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Schröder is not the head of state of Germany or any official so I don't see why it should be noted. --Pudeo (Talk) 12:54, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Isn't including the information about Schroeder being part of Gazprom, thusly presenting a qualifier about his statement, slightly POV? His statement is his POV, but mentioning that he happens to be tied in with Gazprom seems to suggest that the writer's own POV is that he's bound to say such a thing because he's obviously in the pay of the Russians. That's not presenting evidence with impartiality, and I think mention of his ties to Gazprom should be removed from this page - let viewers find it out for themselves, they shouldn't be told what to think when reading this. Whether Shroeder's own comments on the matter still remain relevant to the page is another question.--86.140.177.37 13:31, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I think it is actually very much NPOV - just stating that he works for a major Russian company, which is publicly known as a tool used by Russian government in politics before. There are no further comments on that, just the plain facts - and each can draw their own conclusions. DLX 14:20, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

It's notable that the former Chancellor says: "Russians who died fighting fascism" (sic). Maybe he made the statement in Russian... ;) Camptown 15:17, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I disagree - I think the wording seems to be trying to make a point. I mean, I didn't know that he worked for/with Gazprom until I saw that comment. My perception of the statement is changed before I even read it. This is slightly irrelevant, as someone else has now removed the mention of Gazprom. Also, apologies if this has already been clarified, but why is it incorrect to say the Soviet Union faught against "fascism"? It wasn't just Nazi Germany that took part in Barbarossa.--86.140.177.37 16:06, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I would expect a former Chancellor of Germany (the country that started the war and had the option to end it anytime before the bitter end) to be more honest, and not using Russian sematics as fascists when talking about a monument in memory of the fight against the nazists. Even though I begin to wonder if the Soviets actually "liberated" Estonia from the Italians... Camptown 17:44, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I think by the time the Soviet army came back to Estonia, the Italians had already switched sides. However, one of the last batallions to leave Tallinn was the SS wallonie division, commanded by Leon Degrelle. Not really Nazis, but Fascists.--Pan Gerwazy 18:34, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Also remember that the Romanians also took part on the Eastern Front and were also ruled by a Fascist state, as were several other Axis powers. Whether any Romanian or Croat or whatever divisions were dotted around Tallinn in 1944 is something else entirely, but for the Soviet Union the whole war was the fight against "the fascists", I wouldn't expect them to be getting very politically correct after all that happened on the Eastern Front. But from a technical standpoint, that point I think is more accurate than saying they just faught against Nazism. But I find myself drifting off the point though I think.--86.140.177.37 18:55, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Why is "former chancellor" more important than "current Gazprom *something*"? In my opinion, the present occupation is more important than the past. I'll change it back. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Haigejobu (talk • contribs) 16:23, 28 April 2007 (UTC).

No, I agree that mentioning his current job is relevant. I'm adding it back in for now, hopefully in a way that nobody will find POV. Esn 05:56, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Huh, I see someone already added it in before I managed to. Anyway, I think it's relevant because it gives better context to his comments. I hope nobody finds the current phrasing POV. Esn 06:03, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree, Mr. Schroeder's comment has also to be judged in view of his current credentials. Camptown 09:24, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Vello Rajangu

Now it's claimed that the statue is modeled after the Estonian soldier Vello Rajangu. True or not? Camptown 14:13, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

According to this, identity of the model is unknown. Kristjan Palusalu is very likely not the model, most probably the model was a carpenter named Albert Adamson. The name Vello Rajangu isn't mentioned at all, so it is probably not true. I'll remove that from the article, unless someone can come up with a citation supporting that. DLX 14:26, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Additional source (also in Estonian, unfortunately) [2] DLX 14:31, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Interesting, are there enough material for an article about Albert Adamson? The name sounds Swedish, doesn't it? Camptown 14:33, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

To an Estonian ear the names Albert and Adamson sound very Estonian, and there have been plenty of Albert's and Adamson's in Estonia. Just an observation, not an allegation about the ethnic identity of the person in question. Cheers, --217.159.207.106 15:51, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Monument intact

Estonian prime minister made a statement in which he announced that the monument is "intact" and "undamaged" (http://www.delfi.ee/news/paevauudised/eesti/article.php?id=15706791). Therefore any references to the dismantling or destruction of the monument should be removed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Orav (talk • contribs) 17:45, 28 April 2007 (UTC).

And that implies that the Estonian authorities have returned the Bronze Soldier from its undisclosed location? --Camptown 17:57, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

The prime minister states that the monument is currently under police custody and will be transferred to the cemetery of the Estonian Defence Forces as soon as the preparations are complete.

I thought they sawed it off by it's ankles? There were photos of that. 84.250.45.172 21:14, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

The photos were fake. Here is proof: http://surnuaed.ee/sold_fake.gif The image is originally taken from this same wikipedia article and photoshopped. Suva 10:48, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

The Bronze statue

What is going to happen with the bronze statue? Is it going to be melted down, given away to Russia's deputy Prime Minister, or be included as a decorative element at the local military cemetary? Camptown 18:06, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

As I said above, the statue, along with any remains unearthed at Tõnismäe, will be transferred as a whole to the Cemetery ASAP. This was said in the official statement by Andrus Ansip, the prime minister. Orav 18:15, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Sigh... Why, then, did you suggest removing any references to the removal or destruction of the monument? Camptown 18:29, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I said "dismantling or destruction" which would mean the statue would be no more. Of course the statue is removed from Tõnismäe. I never said that it wasn't going to be relocated. Just the fact that the article said the statue was going to be destroyed was inaccurate. Sorry if you misunderstood. Orav 18:34, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Amazing page

I think the recent development of this discussion page is truly amazing, much more interesting than the article it is supposed to cover. --Bondkaka 20:41, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Mass grave

What is actually known regarding the mass grave? Does it contain a number of unidentifeid human corpses (more or less dumped into the grave), or are these corpses arranged in some kind of a system, facilitating identification? Since this grave doesn't seem to have been supposed to be a Grave of the unknown soldier - Why were the corpses buried in an intersection in the middle of a big city? --Camptown 21:18, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Identity of those buried, even the amount of those buried isn't clear. Numbers have been stated to be 13 or 16 in different sources, as several burials & reburials took place during soviet times. The intersection was widened decades ago by soviet authorities, at the same time when the controversial bus stop was built (widening it the other way would have required the demolition of one of Tallinn's main churches). It's believed that part of the burial site was paved over then. Also, there's no clear information about whether any remains were removed or relocated when the gas pipes for eternal flame by the statue were ran through the burial site.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.35.238.94 (talk) 23:13, 28 April 2007 (UTC).

Thanks, very interesting! You mentioned a church - does that imply that the site was used as a burial ground when the remains of the soldiers were laid to rest in the mass grave? --Camptown 23:36, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Definitely not, as far as I know this particular church did not have a cemetery attached to it, as it was constructed on an empty plot when the city had already enclosed it. The space used for burials can be described (for the want of a better definition) as a "small park". For best available information on the graves you can read the goverment study linked on the main page, presently under the "Neutral" heading. 213.35.238.94 23:55, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

12 coffins have been found (2 rows of 6). 9 sets of remains will have been recovered by tonight (30/04), according to Defense Ministry press conference earlier today. 213.35.232.138 13:04, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Coffins have been identified as the right ones, as their handles are a clearly identifiable unusual make, same as on burial photographs. 213.35.232.138 13:40, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Russians vs Estonians is not correct!

I don't like two aspects: 1) This talk page says this is piece of russian history 2) Marauders in Tallinn is Russians. In my opinion, former correct version is CCCP history, not Russian. Later is more slavic people, russians are most common slavic peolpe in Estonia, but Belarus and Ukraine descendent is also common. 62.65.227.172 (talk · contribs)

Russian history is relevant as post-communist Russia (notably her political institutions) has been quite obsessed with the issue. Camptown 21:50, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

As far as i know Belorussians and Ukrainians dont walk in the streets of Tallinn shouting: "Russia, Russia". So please dont mess them in this dirt. EvilAlex 22:37, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm talking about the quite hysteric political reaction in Russia, which certainly has neiher been diplomatic, nor discrete. That, my friend, is part of the Russian contemporary history. I understand Russians who are not so proud of their politicians, when they use the kind of offensive and destructive power language we have seen in the last couple of days. Yet, it's part of the Russian history... --Camptown 23:32, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, this monument is history of Soviet Union. It's strange that leaders of 100 times bigger nation (Russia) than Estonia are so "critical" to small nation which suffered much during the times of USSR. I believe also Russia suffered from Soviet Union? Or were they only rulers of Soviet Union and now miss the glory days? We should remember the Bronze Soldier was not set up by independent Russia. It was set up by dead communist state called Soviet Union. Not Ukranian people, or their decents, are celebrating communist monument there. Most probably they think crazy people both side.. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.156.169.76 (talk) 15:17, 30 April 2007 (UTC).

Demolished structures category

The word 'demolished' is not correct, thus I recommend to remove this category. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.50.157.9 (talk) 23:33, 28 April 2007 (UTC).

As the comment said: come back when it is rebuilt. Then, maybe, it can go into Category:Relocated buildings and structures. For now it stays in Category:Demolished buildings and structures. -- Petri Krohn 23:45, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Try to find a new category. I do not protest against anything but I want to see correct grammar - this is not the case. The word "demolish" would be correct if the monument was destroyed (e.g. blown up or whatever). 84.50.157.9 23:47, 28 April 2007 (UTC)84.50.157.9

I'll try to find a better category. Please leave this category intact for now. 84.50.157.9 23:49, 28 April 2007 (UTC)84.50.157.9

The PM was obviously only referring to the stutue when he told the press that the "monument" was "undamaged", but what happend to the stone structure - was it actually demolished today, or not. Who is right? We need evidence! Camptown 23:50, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

There is not a single stone left of the structure in the original location. This was made clear by the published photos of the inside of the tent. -- Petri Krohn 23:55, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Unconfirmed sources say that the stone structure is almost intact and was removed by sections, not brick by brick. Trying to get confirmation. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.50.157.9 (talk) 23:53, 28 April 2007 (UTC).

Even if the structure was in sections, it would still count as "Demolished structures". -- Petri Krohn 23:57, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

No, 'demolished' means 'destroyed completely'. Like I said before, the word 'demolished' seems incorrect. Why should we put it in this category if it has not been destroyed completely (or until we do not have information if it has or has not been destroyed)? I would not put it in a "Not Destroyed Structures" category either (even if it existed) since I cannot confirm my sources right now. You should use the same mentality. I recommend removal of the category until confirmation.84.50.157.9 00:02, 29 April 2007 (UTC)84.50.157.9

It seems that you have misunderstood the meaning of the word "demolished". Any structure torn down is demolished. It does not need to be blown up with dynamite. -- Petri Krohn 00:09, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

P.S. Considering the state secrecy surrounding the structure, maybe we need to create a Category:Disappeared buildings and structures. -- Petri Krohn 23:59, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

You could create the category if you want to, but I do not see the point of it.84.50.157.9 00:02, 29 April 2007 (UTC)84.50.157.9

P.P.S. We could of course consider Category:Unexplained disappearances. -- Petri Krohn 00:05, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I would prefer it instead of the demolished structures category. Change it then?84.50.157.9 00:06, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Again with the "state secrecy" nonsense. Please stop misusing the English language to further your political ends. Dismantling something in order to re-erect it elsewhere is not demolition. See dictionary definitions of Demolish and Dismantle. Also, you were asked to, and you appeared to agree with, stopping with your completely unverified and baseless "state secret" accusations. Unigolyn 02:21, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Unexplained disappearances seems more like alien stories & divine interventions & other mystical stuff. IMO, unsuitable for the statue which was taken away with a common truck. --82.131.57.196 06:08, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Waffen SS monument and its removal relevant?

It seems that there's parallel between this conflict and the building/removal of the monument to the Estonians who fought as members of Waffen SS in 2004. I found this [3] and also remember BBC News covered it.

And that story is duly linked at the end, under "See also". See Monument of Lihula. Any longer sections in this article are hardly NPOV, and this isn't a compendium over political statue removal in Post-Soviet countries. Unigolyn 02:16, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Also, the source is plain wrong. Despite what the media claims, no SS insignia was displayed. This was confirmed by an expert (professor of semiotics from Tartu University) brought in by police [4]. Link in estonian, but broadly saying that the only identifiable insignia were distinctly estonian, and the helmet worn a generic german model (understandable, as that what was worn by estonians fighting against soviets at the time). 213.35.238.94 03:01, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Khimki War Memorial

I fail to find a Wikiarticle on exhuming of six Red Army pilots and destruction of the memorial in Khimki (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2007/04/20/014.html). They had to bring in special forces (OMON) there - and there are no plans of restoring the monument, afaik. Would be highly relevant to Bronze Soldier controversy as well, for obvious reasons. DLX 06:45, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Few more sources: 1, 2, 3 (bottom of the page).DLX 06:50, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you already mentioned it (16:21, 27 April 2007). It's relevant, but not directly related to this - it's more like those other links in the "see also" section (the alleged SS-uniform memorial, etc). This particular case is only partially about the removal of a statue. In large part, according to the comments I've read by Russians, it is about "15 years of repression". Much like the protests in France last year, it was sparked by something relatively simple, but if that other background had not been there there is absolutely no way it would have escalated to these huge proportions. Rather, the reaction would probably have been much as it was in Khimki - anger, but not wholesale destruction.

But yes, if you wish, by all means create an article about it and link it somewhere (maybe in the "see also" section). Esn 06:59, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I was going to mention that it's not really up to wikipedia editors to make comparisons. However, now that I see that the comparison is being made in the media and within Russia (from those new links you posted), perhaps it would be a good idea to start a small section about it. Mind, it still probably shouldn't be a huge part of this article. Esn 07:02, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that is exactly what I meant - something in see also section. If I can find some time this afternoon, I'll try to start the article about it - and perhaps a small section in here as well, like Esn suggested. DLX 08:30, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I've started the article now - Khimki War Memorial - just a stub atm. Someone, whose Russian is better then mine could expand it better, perhaps, as most of the sources are in Russian. Some unused sources are also in HTML comment in the article. DLX 13:42, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Order of mentioning countries

Currently, there seems to be no order to how countries are organized in the "political reaction" section. I suggest the following order:

1) Estonia (as the country most affected)

2) Russia (as the country claiming to represent the ethnic group involved, and having the most significant response - significant in the sense of influence to the further development of this issue)

3) UN (as the largest international organization)

4) EU (as the second-largest international organization)

5-?) all the other countries in alphabetical order

What do you guys think? Esn 07:19, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I think the Estonia and Russia should top the list, with EU and the the neigboring countries having priority. The UN reaction, however, seems to be an automatically generated respons without any implication (that's why UN dosen't top the list any more) Camptown 08:17, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, you both have valid points. I don't see the UN ever making a statement concerning some conflict where they would support only one side of the quarrel. They're a pacifist organization, so their response is pretty much predetermined (Make love, not war). Then again there's no point in making the closest countries more importaint. I suppose the list should be in alphabetical order, but beginning with Estonia and Russia (and leaving perhaps some white space in between the first two and the remainder). -- Telempe 09:14, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Mastaba-like?

Currently, the article describes the memorial as "mastaba-like". Is this just a convenient physical description, or is some marginal connection to Egyptian Revival architecture indeed implied?--Pharos 07:53, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Just a physical description. -- Telempe 08:47, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Rumours about the mass grave

There are rumours on the internet that some of the soldiers in the mass grave actually didn't perished in combat, but died of natural causes, alchoholism and in one case in a traffic accident. Is there any truth behind these rumours? Camptown 08:25, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

There is nothing certain about it, hence the archaeological excavations. Rumors go from "no one is buried there at all" to "few soldiers shot for pillaging, looting and raping". Looking at the current list, I doubt it is entirely true (in some cases they had to carry the body for days and 50 kilometers, while there are mass graves in battle sites, some dates are weird (Aleksandr Grigorov died in March, rest allegedly in September). DLX 08:35, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Thumbnail pictures

What's the point of having thumbnail size under My Preferences when the thumbnails have fixed widths? -- Telempe 08:59, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Since noone cared to join in discussion, I deleted the fixed thumbnail sizes. See Image use policy and Manual of Style. -- Telempe 12:31, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

The question is interesting, but far to general to be answered here. I ask that the fixed sizes be restored, to make space for the image captions. -- Petri Krohn 22:27, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Statue or the whole monument?

I still haven't figured out was just the bronze soldier statue removed or the whole monument made of bricks and metal plates? Is the "monument" still standing there without the soldier, or was every brick moved? Will only the soldier be moved to military cemetary, or the whole monument as it was in Tönismäe? --Pudeo (Talk) 10:13, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Everything's gone and everything will be put up to cemetery as it was before at Tõnismägi. 84.50.11.236 10:18, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Everything happens inside a big tent; but reports (along with authentic pictures???) suggest that the bricked monument is now removed and forensic experts are digging their way in the mass grave to exhume the corpses of what is believed to be fallen soldiers. Camptown 10:23, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

One of Estonian TV channels just showed full view of the inside of tent. It's empty alright. 213.35.238.94 16:04, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

May 8

The Estonian government now reports that the monument's relocation to the military cemetery will be completed by May 8. Does that imply that the May 9 celebrations will take place at the Cemetery of the Estonian Defence Forces this year? Camptown 10:36, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Very unlikely. I find it much more likely that the Victory Day celebrations will consist of burning down the Estonian Parlament building on Toompea. ...but Wikipedia is not a crystal ball... -- Petri Krohn 11:08, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

That's ridiculous. Toompea is completely sealed off, only some military action could break through there and be able to set fire to/blow up something. Anyway, the "celebrations" are on the 9th, so there should be no problem. Also the monument/statue/whatever you want to call it will be relocated to the new spot by tomorrow (according to the latest press release). - 82.131.30.114 11:40, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

P.S. It seems that the ethnic Russians have given an ultimatum: either the monument is restored by May 9, or the day will mark "the beginning of our war against the criminal Estonian government." (See kavkazcenter) -- Petri Krohn 11:34, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Estonian news sources have not confirmed it. If you are in need of news from Estonia and speak Russian, then read Russian edition of Postimees. Using Russian sources when talking about Estonia is not a good idea. Also, please stop posting this Anti-Estonian propaganda. Tarmo Tanilsoo 11:57, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Petri Krohn has a good point! You never know what's going to happen next. And when did <kavkazcenter.com> become a pro-Russian propaganda tool? Bondkaka 13:28, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

That blog seems just the opinion of 1 russian to me. --82.131.85.6 13:36, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Kavkazcenter is one of the best informed sources on Russian affairs. This was evident also in the case of Aleksander Litvinenko. They are however extremely anti-Russian; as the name implies, they are a "propaganda" tool of organizations involved in insurrection against the Russian government. By assosiation, they are also very pro-Estonian. They might not be right in this case, but what they publish is certainly not "Russian propaganda". -- Petri Krohn 18:02, 29 April 2007 (UTC).

BTW - "Kavkazcenter" reminds me of Estonia's ties with Dzhokhar Dudaev. --Camptown 12:27, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, he was one of soviet military commanders in Estonia during Soviet Union's breakup, and is generally considered one of the level-headed officers who kept the situation here from turning to violence. It has been claimed he ignored direct orders from Moscow ordering security clampdown. 213.35.238.94 13:33, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Wasn't Estonia one of very few countries that had diplomatic relations with Chechnya? --Camptown 14:23, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Estonia supports separatist movements of Kavkaz (primarily as an insult to Russia) unsigned comment 15:07, 29 April 2007 by Borism (talk · contribs)

Perhaps because according to the international law, they have right for their own country? Which is all they have been asking. DLX 15:19, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Which international law says countries can be created just like that? Can I create country of my own if I want to? I'd like to... Or how would you feel if say estonian Setu people would create their own country on Estonian soil? Anyway, sorry for offtopicness Borism

Charter of the United Nations grants a right for national self-determination for every nation. Setu people are not a distinct nation, they are also Estonians. 84.50.11.236 09:32, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Besides, i think everyone would let them (Setu) make their own country if most of them really insisted. But i doubt they would, considering they would have to join all the WTO and EU and NATO and all the rest, which could take lots of years... All that time without any international protection could bring severe consequences from the east. --Haigejobu 15:43, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

External links

There are sections "Supporters" and "Opponents" in Bronze_Soldier of Tallinn#External links. Supporters of what, opponents of what? Either section names should be changed or all sections merged, as now it is rather strange and un-encyclopedic. DLX 14:02, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I changed it to "Supporters of the relocation" and "Opponents of the relocation". How's that sound? -- Telempe 14:57, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

That is good, except that now links don't match the headlines. I'll change that. DLX 14:59, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Is or was?

The Bronze Soldier of Tallinn still exists. Then why do you use past tense in the beginning of the article? Andres 18:01, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

If it ever gets rebuilt, you can add the information in the article on Tallinn military cemetery. This article is about the Soviet memorial and its symbolic value Soviet and Estonian people. -- Petri Krohn 19:54, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

There are no "Soviet" people. And you're moving goalposts again. You do NOT get to decide on whether the memorial loses all its meaning by being relocated. Physically, it still exists and will continue to exist. If your theory is correct, it will be proved to be so in the fullness of time, for instance, by the lack of mourners there on May 9th. Unigolyn 20:05, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Petri Krohn is right: Past tense makes more sence, as the article is a about a war memorial on a mass grave downtown Tallinn. --Camptown 20:30, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Though it pains me to say it, Petri Krohn is right there (what Soviet people, tho?) 213.35.232.138 21:45, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

If the pieces ever get reasembled, we will have a never-ending debate about the identity (sameness) of the two monuments. What is clear, is that the statue will will have lost its symbolic meaning. To the Estonians it will mark the final step in the re-establisbent of Estonia's pre-1940 independence. To the Russians and other resident non-citizens it will most likely symbolize the "criminal acts and oppression by the fascist Estonian government" ". -- Petri Krohn 23:07, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

We will see about that. It's too early to make any kind of assumptions yet. 213.35.252.210 14:08, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Soviets??? Homo Sovieticus? And do you have some kind of cristall ball so that you definitely know what Bronze soldier in new location will symbolize to different people? Even better, maybe you can add source for that crystal ball?--Staberinde 14:39, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

What I am saying, is that I can see no (symbolic) continuity between the old memorial and the new monument with the stolen statue. I doubt if others will. -- Petri Krohn 20:18, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, the fact that you can't see symbolic continuity does not mean that nobody can see it. Of course I understand that for stalinists and ultra-nationalist Russians new location of Bronze soldier does not fit as its not so good location for getting large amount of public attention. Those people who simply want to honour fallen soldiers can still continue doing it. From some point it can be even considered better location because peaceful atmospere at cemetery can have advantages compared to former location which was next to large streets with heavy traffic, and bus station very close to it. By the way, Estonia is now independent state not province of Russia, so its up to Estonia what to do with monuments here. I would say Russians should be even happy, USSR itsselfly simply demolished memorials it did not like, without any discussion.--Staberinde 21:20, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Economic immigration

"At the time over a third of Estonia's population were descendants of Russian and other Soviet economic migrants, who had been drawn to Estonia by its rapid post-war industrialization."

This is unsourced, and incorrect information. No one was "drawn" to Estonia, it was not legal to simply grab your suitcase and head off to a different SSR. Intra-Soviet migration was controlled centrally from Moscow. Also, claims of "rapid post-war industrialization" are ridiculous. Estonia was industrialized well before the halfway point of the 20th century, and most of the immediate "industrialization" consisted of forced collectivization of agriculture. Estonia's main industries in the 20th century were textile manufacturing, lumber and power generation, all of which were just as prevalent before the occupation. I am going to rewrite this sentence, to remove the implicit exultation of Soviet economic prowess and the wholly voluntary immigration policies (which, again, didn't exist). Unigolyn 20:05, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps, Narva_Power Plants were also built without help of Soviet occupations, huh? Remove those facilities into Russian soil and live in Stone Age.86.102.223.129 01:20, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Gee, in fifty years we naturally wouldn't have managed to build the power plants ourselves. Thank you for the fifty years of occupation, killing tens of thousands Estonians and forcing others to live in poverty - after all, you brought us those mighty power plants! DLX 12:08, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks to the "rapid industrialisation" we were still sitting behind Juku computers and driving Zhaparozets in even early ninties, while we could have long time used IBM's and driven a volvo. Claims of soviet industrialization are relatively short sighted. As the estonian economy showed very fast rise in the first independence. We could have been compared to other first world nations for long time if the soviet occupation wouldn't have happened. Suva 12:15, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you were sitting behind Juku and driving Zhaparozets's. Do not forget, you also had gas in every house, delivered by Soviet/Russian pipelines as well as mentioned Soviet-built power plants. Without Soviet Empire, you'd still graze cows and lit bonfires.Sea diver 01:59, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Bonfires? Naah, not really. We'd probably have a small nuclear plant as Sweden and Finland have. Also, the only thing nowadays in common with soviet built plants is the location. Machinery etc. had to be updated to western standards, because, well, soviet technology was decades behind. There wasn't a thing that didn't need updating. 217.159.186.37 08:45, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Estonian Defence Forces?

The article doesn't observe the fact that, along with regular police officers and volonteers, also military personel (photos) are patrolling the streets of Tallinn. What kind of military personel have been involved in protecting the city from looters and vandals etc? --Camptown 20:46, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

No, these are volunteers from Estonian Defence League who are temporarily under the command of police. For a few years now they have been partnershiping (mainly at large concerts etc.) 84.50.11.236 21:36, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

If they are Estonian Defence League, then they should be counted as military, like the National Guard in the U.S. -- Petri Krohn 22:19, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Please read my comments below. The EDL members aren't present as members of military (or even as members of EDL), but as volunteer assistant policemen from civilian population. 213.35.232.138 22:46, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Then they would have to have double membership also in the voluntary police force. If they receive commands from their EDL superiors, then they are military. -- Petri Krohn 00:23, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

They are called up by police forces and assigned to police units. EDL chain of command doesn't enter the equation. 213.35.232.138 01:35, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Those are assistant policemen who don't get issued police uniforms, hence their being out with whatever they can get. Also, many of the assistant policemen are members of EDL, volunteer organisation (under the oversight of Defense Forces) for training for guerilla warfare, etc. They don't have a common uniform but often get donations from different armed forces around the world / regular army's leftovers. The faux-military outfits are commonly known as 'duckhunting suits', as that's what they're often worn for. 213.35.232.138 21:41, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and it's Jõhvi, not Tallinn. With the bulk of police forces in Tallinn, the volunteers (registered assistance policemen) were called in to support police in the outlying areas. 213.35.232.138 21:43, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Genuine message?

"Command of group "KOLIVAN " Army of Russian Resistance" I guess this is what kavkaz is referring to, from: livejournal weblog: <removed on the basis of Wikipedia policies: see Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not> - 193.40.5.245 12:01, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

But is it just another hoax? --Camptown 21:46, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

...or a provocation by Estonians?

The primary demand is citizenship to all ex-Soviet citizens. I do not think this would have been included by anyone, but real Estonian Russian non-citizens. This makes it sound authentic. It does not prove a real threat, but even a hoax or provocation has the potential to lead to concrete action. -- Petri Krohn 00:13, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

"KOLIVAN" is allegedly a medieval Russian name for Tallinn. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 170.20.96.116 (talk) 02:00, 30 April 2007 (UTC).

Translation

Here is a translation by Babelfish: (Feel free to improve on the translation -- Petri Krohn 00:01, 30 April 2007 (UTC))

<removed from Wikipedia: see Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not> 193.40.5.245 12:02, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Yesterday I found 3 Google hits for "Армии Русского Сопротивления". Today I find 118: [5] Seems that the message is notable and can be refered to in Wikipedia. Are there any Estonian languge sources for this? Whow is this group refered to in Estonian? -- Petri Krohn 22:01, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

International Committee for the Baltic States without Nazism

As a follow up to assorted statements and press releases: this one I got from Tallinn and am publishing in St. Petersburg. The Committee is improvised but I will help to register if I'd be ever asked to. The report or rather open appeal is absolutely accurate as far as ethnic dictatorship (ethnocracy) and Bronze Soldier affair is concerned although I wish the authors were perhaps less empotional and childish. As it revolves around barbaric act of official vandalism in Estonia - the Bronze Soldier debacle and is pertinent to this article, I believe it should be posted here. (Roobit 00:33, 30 April 2007 (UTC)).

---

Friends,

You should be aware that when you do business in Estonia or buy anything made in Estonia or visit it as tourist you support an apartheid state and fund a new generation of European Nazis...

(Moved long declaration to User talk:Roobit#International Committee for the Baltic States without Nazism. -- Petri Krohn 01:31, 30 April 2007 (UTC))

• The last statement is simply to long to be on wiki. If the copyright is OK and the authentecity is not a problem then it might go to wikisource Alex Bakharev 01:28, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Good heavens! Estonia IS NOT FASCISTIC, there is NO apartheid state and NO European Nazis! It may seem fascistic for mr. Putin, but it is not. That we don't want communism doesn't mean that we are fascistic. You have read Russian news agencies too much. Tarmo Tanilsoo 05:21, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Reported to WP:AN/I, here. Wikipedia is not for pushing political agendas or promoting hatred and violence, I recommend reporting such incidents in the future as soon as they happen. We've managed to keep this article NPOV, all sides agree to that - and for something that hotly debated, that is an impressive feat indeed. DLX 05:37, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Is this the same ´"anti-fascist" movement Russian State television is urging people to support? Camptown 09:49, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Splitting the article?

Some people have decided to split the article, without consulting anyone here; see 2007 Estonian unrest. If there is indeed support for this, I suggest that most of the information from this article be moved there, rather than simply duplicated. For example, all of the international reactions, and the explanations for the controversy, should be on that page rather than on this one. The only thing on this page about the incidents which began this year should be a very short paragraph and a link to that page.

That's assuming that there is indeed support for the move. Currently, all it's creating is two articles with similar information that's updated at different rates. Esn 07:24, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Oppose: I see no reason for the split. At the moment the new article just mirrors information here. If/when there are more riots, then the article can be re-created. There was some small talk about it in edit summaries, I think - and did you check talk archive 1? DLX 07:29, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Support: Well, why shouldn't we split the article? Let's have all the matters concerning the statue here, and all the unrest information there. I'd say this makes both articles more diverse. There are many reverts in the hist that claim to revert irrelevant material, just because it does not concern the Soldier specifically, just the unrests. I vote for two articles. -- Telempe 07:45, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Oppose: A spit is only confusing for people who are not so familiar with the subject. Camptown 07:51, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Support: It has been already done in Estonian Wikipedia. Let the unrest be in a separate article. My opinion is the same as Telempe's. Tarmo Tanilsoo 08:08, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

It may be, than on Estonian wikipedia, the split is done to push a POV: the unrest is presented as acts of vandalism by drunken hooligans, without any political content. In the end we may have to create a page on Organized opposition to the Estonian state. Right now we are not there yet. -- Petri Krohn 13:00, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Strong Oppose: That article is just a duplication and very confusing. We now have a situation with updates taking place on two different articles covering the same topic. Important developments are expected within the next few days. Let this article be the sole and only article for that. Bondkaka 08:28, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Already voted: To all of you opposers: you do realise that having only one article decreases possibilities covering the unrest (e.g. Claims of police brutality, external links to more info on looting and so on). -- Telempe 08:52, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I think Telempe has good point. But right now that article is a complete disaster, and totally misses the point. For example: It doesn't deal with the background of the riots, and it actually implies that the international reaction is focused on the riots, and not the political controversy (more violent riots take place on a regular basis without any statesman rising an eyebrow). Although, it may have been created with a good intention, the article ís a kind of vandalism or Recentism which has become a major problem with Wikipedia. I would support a possible solution, where the details of the riots are moved to a seperate article, with the major development (including the most important aspects of the riots, political reaction etc) left to this main article about the statue (which indeed has a greater political than artistic/architectual value. Camptown 09:05, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Support split. I believe the story around the monument was only the trigger point for the tensions that grow for decades the emphasis on the plight of the statue limits our abilities to tell the full story Alex Bakharev 09:37, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Practically, it seems complicated, though, because if we make a separate article about the political contorvercy and riots, that article would probably need to include most of the facts of the monument (the trigger). Maybe this article should be renamed the Bronze Soldier Controvercy - after all, very little in this article is focused on the very building and design of the monument, but mostly about the controvercy... Camptown 10:07, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

2007 Estonian unrest Afd-req

Dear friends: We cannot have two different articles competing with the same updates. I've now pulled the emergency break. How can we solve this problem? What do you think? please, voice your opinion here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2007 Estonian unrest, Camptown 08:09, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Protection

Please protect this article. And add pov tag. The article is compromised with false statements and vandalism. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.35.252.210 (talk) 10:10, 30 April 2007 (UTC).

I disagree. As it is now, article is pretty NPOV, especially considering the "hotness" of the topic. DLX 10:50, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Looking back, I would have hoped the that the page had been soft protected earlier. The page has received a barrage of edits from IPs in countries involved in the dispute. Most of these IPs have no other edits on Wikipedia; their edits on this page have been focused on POV pushing: edits wars over wording and deletion of sourced content they dislike. -- Petri Krohn 12:38, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

This is a current event article, every minute something notable may happen and we would not be able to proper account the new info if the article is protected or even semiprotected. Having said this I would obviously approve any level of protection if the level of vandalism would become unbearable. IMHO, so far it not that bad Alex Bakharev 13:17, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree that this article needs semiprotection - it is blown up by irrelevant info already Borism 19:51, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

September 22

Was that day (anniversary of the Red Army entering Tallinn) officially observed in some way during the Soviet years? --Camptown 10:24, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Morning of 26.04

It says in the article: "Members of protest organizers "Night Vigil" reported that police had attacked three of their members monitoring the situation in a car parked nearby, injuring one of them."

This is not accurate as they were not monitoring the situation nearby, but their car was actually parked in the area which the police was clearing out and where no civilians were allowed. The police gave repeated orders to the three member of the "Night Vigil" to clear the area, but they locked themselves in the car and refused to leave. The police tried to get to make them leave peacefully, but as they refused to show any cooperation, the police had to break the car window and use force to get them out and during that one person obtained some minor injuries. With the current wording it seems as the police attacked them without any reason which is not true. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.235.54.106 (talk) 10:31, 30 April 2007 (UTC).

Actually I think this should be removed, as it is not relevant to article and has only provocative meaning. Suva 11:05, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

The injuries were caused by broken glass, as was the case with vast majority of injuries during the riots. 213.35.232.138 11:42, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Any sources to back that up? Suva 11:51, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

This presse release byt Estoniain Foreign Ministry [6], quoting Estonian Health Care Board. 213.35.232.138 12:52, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

It is notable, as it shows the determination of the people protecting the memorial. Also provocations are likely to cause more violence later. -- Petri Krohn 12:48, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

References to russian media

The Russian media is running large provocative campaign by uttering lies towards the events. I don't think the estonian media is compromised by so hevay propaganda, but I still think neutral references should be used instead. BBC, CNN and other news sources seem to be more neutral. For example the arrest of and violence to the Night Vigil members is compromised by this issue. Suva 11:00, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Even BBC isn't neutral. For example, their correspondent who covers events in Estonia is in Moscow and uses Russian sources. 84.50.11.236 11:45, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

That is controversial issue, but they are definitely more neutral than russian media. We should possibly cite both russian and estonian sources for neutrality. Suva 11:50, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Enn Roos

What is known about the Estonian sculptor of the monument? --Camptown 11:25, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

not much, I'm afraid;-)

If somebody reads Estonian [7] and [8] might be of some help Alex Bakharev 13:50, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, there are many people here, who do. And those who read Russian - there are many such people here as well - might read interview with Mihhail Lotman, former Estonian MP, son of the famour Yuri Lotman.Pronksmees 14:12, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Have not found anything about Enn Roos in this interiew, maybe you misplaced the comment? Alex Bakharev 03:47, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Update, new sections

I'm adding news about the current protests in Moscow against Estonia's policies. Also, Russia's delegation has arrived in Estonia and made its first declarations - those have to be covered as well. Wil lgive my best, unless the page gets semiprotected :S 193.40.5.245 11:50, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

British reactions: http://comment.independent.co.uk/leading_articles/article2496635.ece
194.204.35.117 13:11, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah! Maybe the British can recreate the British Campaign in the Baltic 1918-19 to liberate the Balts from the evil Bolsheviks. -- Petri Krohn 13:26, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, interesting... any links describing the campaign? I gather it's about British naval support for Estonian forces during the war of indepencence? 213.35.232.138 13:44, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

See here. - How is this related to the issue at hand. The Estonian view fails to acknowledge that Estonian independence was gained through two foreign occupations and interventions, against the wishes of a large portion of Estonians. (These same Estonians were demanding joining the Soviet Union in 1940 and fighting Nazis in 1944.) -- Petri Krohn 14:09, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Estonia's independence gained 'against the wish of a large portion' of Estonians? Which figures lead you to conclude that? Viktor Kingissepp and Jaan Anvelt didn't make up but a very SMALL portion of society in 1918-1920. Вот так, товарищ Крохн. Pronksmees 14:15, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Would like to see a quote as well. During the interwar period, Estonian Communist Party's support hovered around 5%. Their smashing victory in 1940 elections can be attributed to ongoing Soviet military occupation (stand as non-communist, get visitors in middle of night) 213.35.241.244 14:39, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Petri, you are talking total bs. Support for independence was so strong in 191x that schoolboys joined en masse the Estonian army.

Why would anyone but small group (perhaps 15..20, with supporters maybe 300..400) of communists join Soviet Union in 1939? Estonia, with better living standards then Finland - and Soviet Union, with GULAG, famine, hunger. If you look at the photos of "mass meetings" from that time, you can actually see, how the meeting is surrounded by circle of Soviet soldiers/navy. First elections after the war reported "99.8%" support, while in some counties they had less then ten valid election tickets, according to the eyewitnesses. DLX 14:36, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Can't find a source, but remember reading that Estonian Communist Party had 53 card-carrying members pre-occupation in print media. 213.35.241.244 14:43, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Alternative Russian view http://www.dp.ru/msk/news/politics/2007/04/29/216245/

194.204.35.117 18:06, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

The soldier is up

The soldier is now at the cemetery of Estonian Defence League. Pic: http://www.epl.ee/pic.php?suurus=s&file=164643 (Reminds Batman, doesn't it?) The text in front of it reads "To an unknown soldier" in both Estonian and Russian. The stone wall will be added later since it'll take time to build it. 84.50.11.236 14:16, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like the Grave of the Unknown Soldier. --Camptown 14:22, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

This image settles it, I am restoring the Category:Demolished buildings and structures. -- Petri Krohn 14:24, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, the Tallinn monument is history now... Maybe there are categories for relocated parts of monuments? And, curiously enough, the statue actually comes out much better without the mastaba. Camptown 14:28, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Mastaba will be re-built later [9], may take up to a month - which is understandable, as it needs a solid base etc. And Category:Demolished buildings and structures is totally invalid now, as statue was the important part of the memorial (hence Bronze Soldier of Tallinn, not Limestone mastaba of Tallinn). Also, the name isn't invalid, as the military cemetery is in Tallinn as well. DLX 14:43, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

That's a pitty, because the bronze statue does look much more dignified without its back against a stone wall. Camptown 15:05, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Reappearance of the bronze soldier threw Duma's factfinding mission off course. They canceled all appointments for today, including a press conference. Ethnonazi 15:24, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

But they still want the Estonian Government to resign... Maybe the Duma deputies would better consult a Public Relations agency next time...Bondkaka 16:52, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

A friend of mine now says that the "To the Unknown Soldier"-stone is not at all new, and that the bronze statue has been put behind the stone (grave?) probably only for the time being; there is simply not room enough for the stone wall to be erected behind the statue, unless other graves are removed... Can somebody confirm this? --Bondkaka 16:35, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

The stone was there before, to accompany the graves that lie before it (military cemetery, after all). There are no graves in the bushes behind the statue, though. Check the video accompanying this newsbite: [10] Ethnonazi 17:28, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Helmet

What kind of helmet is depicted on the stone in front of the statue? It almost looks German! Pic: http://www.epl.ee/pic.php?suurus=s&file=164643 --Camptown 14:38, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Soviet make. German helmets had a distinctly different shape/profile. 213.35.241.244 14:40, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

The phrase "unknown soldier" in the modern Estonian lexicography may however be a reference to the Estonian Waffen SS. -- Petri Krohn 18:51, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Where did you hear/read that out? 194.204.35.117 18:54, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Give it up. The stone was obviously placed there during soviet times, as though the main text is bilingual, the date is followed by cyrillic 'g.g.' - russian notation. Ethnonazi 18:56, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Would it have been in Estonian and English had it been during post-Soviet rule? ;) --Bondkaka 19:28, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Still estonian & russian, with possible addition of german & english. I was pointing out the 'g.g.' part. Ethnonazi 20:17, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I've heard that the Estonian unknown soldier may refer to the Forest Brothers (restistance movement). Right? Camptown 19:01, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

There's a distinction between 'sõdur' (soldier) and "võitleja" (fighter). Forest brothers are described as "vabadusvõitleja" (freedom fighter), whereas "tundmatu sõdur" (unknown soldier) implies membership of a military. Ethnonazi 20:17, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Graves

According to this, by this evening they've found nine coffins out of (possible) twelve, archaeological digging continues. They hope to identify the remains by end of May or early June. DLX 14:53, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

So they are not expecting to find 13? Does it say if the coffins are marked with identity tags? Camptown 15:01, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

12 coffins were found, 2 rows of 6. 9 sets of remains will be recovered by tonight (archaeologists don't like to hurry). Coffins were identified by the help of archive photographs of burial - the handles were of same unusual make. 213.35.241.244 15:16, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Does anybody know why the soldiers were not buried in a military cemetery in the first place? --Bondkaka 16:38, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I wonder this too. How they died and when? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.156.169.76 (talk) 16:46, 30 April 2007 (UTC).

This yet to be determined. The official sources are quite unclear about this. 213.35.252.210 16:48, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

War Graves Protection Act

The citation of "The law was passed to legitimize removal of the Bronze Soldier as it was not legally possible before." keeps appearing and disappearing in the article. The statement is somewhat correct, the main reason for this law was to protect/move the bronze soldier and war graves from the critical place. Although statement that it was not legal before are false. There is no law forbidding moving of statues and reburial of war graves. I wish this statement to be included, but modified to be NPOV. Here is also another source to claim the views but from different perspective: http://www.postimees.ee/290606/esileht/siseuudised/207552.php (Estonian) Suva 17:28, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok, i changed it. --82.131.84.102 18:45, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

There's a whole paragraph discussing that the law was implemented in order to bypass local government, and further claims that local government most likely wouldn't have allowed the move. However, there are no citations for this, and it all adds up to speculation: The law covers all military graves in the country, not just this specific one. They are also moving military graves all over the country, not just Tallinn.

Name of this article?

It has been suggested to rename this article to the Bronze Soldier Controversy, and at the same time merge and delete the article 2007 Estonian unrest (which basically is a copy of parts of this article). Currently, there seems to be a majority for deleting and merging the competing article. What do you think? --Camptown 17:45, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Neutral: Only a small fraction of this article is about the design and building of the monument. Creating a separate article about the reaction of the monument's relocation and exhumation of the corpses is practically difficult without creating another identical article about the monument. It's probably correct to assume that the monument was only the trigger of the current unrest, which has more to do with demographic problems etc. Yet, I think that the background information gives at least a somewhat good picture of the problem. Somebody said that the reaction was mainly symbolical, but the monument is also symbolic (as its artistic value is rather questionable - we are not really dealing with a Piccasso statue, or is its aristic value mainly ignored...). Therefore, I think that the suggestion is worth some consideration. Camptown 17:45, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

At the moment I oppose a rename. This article has been nominated a good article. It has also achieved a level of stability, despite the widely defering opinions and points of view. If we rename the article, then we would need to bring all the POV material to the intro. An impossible task at this point. -- Petri Krohn 18:46, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Weak Oppose. First of all, this article is not just about the controversy, but about the statue as well. To rename it to "Bronze Soldier controversy" would not be accurate. Although it may make sense to have two separate articles (one about the statue's history, etc, and one about the current controversy), there is no exact agreed-upon date for when the information relevant to the controversy begins, since most of the background information is relevant as well. I really think that for the moment, it is best to keep everything in one place. For a split to make sense, there needs to be a thorough discussion on the best way to split it. The article is just changing too quickly at the moment for any such discussion to be effective. I suggest that we keep everything in one place for now, and have a new vote to split it later on - in a few weeks at the earliest, maybe months (depending on how long this story takes to conclude). Esn 20:27, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Support --82.131.84.102 21:37, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Just as a friendly note, a vote of support counts more if you give a persuasive reason. Esn 23:15, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok, its because the article is now mostly about the events of April 2007, not directly connected to the statue itself, but rather inspired from it. --82.131.86.22 07:55, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

City of Tallinn

What is the position of the City of Tallinn on the location/relocation/removal/demolition of the monument? Have they made any zoning plans for the park? Is it still zoned for the WW II memorial?

As I understand it, the removal is done against the wishes of the City and the Tallinn City Council. It is purely an Estonian Defence Forces operation orchestrated by the inner "national security council" of the Government of Estonia. Unlike theethnically restricted Riigikogu, the City of Tallinn has a "democratic" government, with electoral representation by the disenfranchised ethnic minorities. I do not think the City or mayor Edgar Savisaar would like to have any part in this demolition business. -- Petri Krohn 19:41, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Uh, what? Estonia is democratic country, accusing the military of meddling into civilian affairs is, frankly, absurd. Thanks for informing us about your pet theory, though. Ethnonazi 20:30, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Just to clarify on Riigikogu - all citizens of Estonia, regardless of ethnicity, are eligible to participate in the elections. Remember, a third of local russian-speaking population do have citizenship. Ethnonazi 21:43, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Ownership

Has the question of legal ownership been discussed? It seems to me, that the City of Tallinn ordered and paid for the construction of the monument. If so, how is it possible that the Estonian Defence Forces have stolen/taken posession of the monument and the statue. Has the City of Tallinn made demands for their return? -- Petri Krohn 19:46, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I understand that the monumement was removed due to a new state law on "forbidden structures", (i.e. a kind of expropriation) and that law was challenged for not being constitutional - which might have been a question of violation of a fundamental right, such as property e.g. (our Estonian pundits probably know the details better). But, as the challenge was dismissed, the property in question was banned, and had to be removed, no matter who happend to own it. Maybe the owner, whoever that may be, can ask for legitimate compensation for his possible damage. Time will tell. Camptown 20:18, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

The owner was either the city of Tallinn, or the Government of Estonia. I've sent a couple of e-mails to people who should know it, but I'm not expecting a too hasty answer - it's Walpurgisnacht. Ethnonazi 20:30, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

But tomorrow is May 1, an ordinary working day in post-communist Estonia? Camptown 20:33, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

No, May Day has no communist origin - it's an international holiday. In fact, most employers gave monday off as well, so people are having a nice 4-day long weekend over here. Ethnonazi 20:42, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

This "international" day of labor celebration is not observed in countries such as the United Kingdom or the United States. And Soviet was supposed to be communist, even though modern socialist refrain from tagging this failed economic system as "true" communism.... The markets on Wall Street will be open as usually on May 1, but Estonians may have a day of hang-over and head aches instead. Which they certainly deserve after all this turmoil. Camptown 20:52, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Apparently the lockdown on alcohol sales has limited people's Walpurgisnacht enjoyment as well. As I was told, the park the statue was located at belongs to city, but the state claims all military memorials in public spaces. Ethnonazi 21:28, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

No, that's not the law. The monument has been removed in accordance with another law, the Law on War Graves. The proposed law on Forbidden Structures was vetoed by the President and never became law. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.131.24.141 (talk) 22:48, 30 April 2007 (UTC).

Evidently the bare statue cannot be banned as it is now being set up by the Defence Forces. Also our Estonian pundits are claiming / reading from Estonian language sources that the whole mastaba would be rebuilt. What we end up is a lustration process where the pieces will return to their legal owner, once the evil spell of their Soviet dedication have been removed by a re-dedication by the Estonian (some say Ethnofascist) government. -- Petri Krohn 20:34, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Blast, I _knew_ someone would come up with a better idea once I picked my name. Anyway,it's a purely civilian operation. Reassembly of the mastaba (nice how fast we settled on a name for it) is delayed as the foundations need to be poured - and the construction-site look was deemed unsuitable for Alyosha on 9th May. Ethnonazi 20:42, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Just my speculation: Technically the law banned the public display of monuments that glorify the Soviet Union, which this monument certainly did on its location in a busy intersection downtown the capital of Tallinn. By incorporating the monument in a context of a regular military cemetary outside the city, its glorification of the dead would be less controversial, or say: more justified. Camptown 20:46, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I'll answer with a speculation of my own: the relocation is partially designed to change the meaning of the monument, from 'Monument for Soviet Liberators' to 'Monument to Honor War Dead', as the 'soviet' connotation was what kept annoying local population, together with the display of soviet flags ever 9th May. Ethnonazi 21:28, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah! A bit like relocating the Al-Aqsa Mosque to Tel Aviv and renaming it Al-Aqsa Synagogue. Now, THAT would solve a lot of problems! -- Petri Krohn 22:42, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Officially, the statue is now considered a grave marker, and it is relocated as a part of the relocation of war victims' graves from an unsuitable place onto a proper graveyard. The Law of War Graves was necessary for that because Estonia does not have a mutual war grave protection treaty with Russia, whose soldiers most or all of the victims in question were. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.131.24.141 (talk) 22:52, 30 April 2007 (UTC).

Photos of relocation

http://news.mail.ru/politics/1317880/

This is the new site for the Bronze Soldier 189.141.54.43 19:55, 30 April 2007 (UTC) ZealotKommunizma

Here's another video as well (scroll down): http://www.postimees.ee/010507/esileht/siseuudised/258058.php. It's apparent that the photoshopped pictures distributed by the government about Alyosha's new location depict the very same spot (bar the mastaba for now). Ethnonazi 21:34, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

That picture was done by Postimees, not the govt. - 82.131.54.29 21:43, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I stand corrected. Still, it did depict the right spot. Ethnonazi 22:09, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Video from inside the tent

Tonight, Russian television broadcasted a video taken from the inside of the tent, showing forensic experts digging in what appeared to be a 2 meter deep hole and possibly some bones in the bottom of the grave. Camptown 20:24, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Same on Estonian TV news. Apparently recovery of second row is somewhat more difficult, due to the bus stop, and the trees around it having grown their roots through those. Ethnonazi 20:45, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Mastaba!

Wikipedia seems to set the trend: A Google-search on Mastaba+Tallinn generates 319 hits. That is roughly 319 more than just a week ago... Camptown 21:03, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Kopli cemetery

Someone made a POV pushing attempt at adding unrelated material to the page. I used the material to create Kopli cemetery. -- Petri Krohn 21:31, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. Though factually correct, it has no place here. Ethnonazi 21:38, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Pro-riot propaganda

This entry was recently deleted as vandalism, but I think it should be further reviewed, as the "Russian" perspective is also valuable in order to understand the conflict:

Pro-riot propaganda

Before and during the events strong propaganda war as launched to upset the Russian speaking population. A photo shopped picture was circulated that depicted the statue sawed of at feet. Strong effort was put into trying to depict Estonia as a fascist country resulting in videos of arrests made by police in the first night of rioting being posted on YouTube tagged as "eSStonia" and while being actual videos showing only police action not the causes for the actions, like looting of shops. Leader of the Constitutional party Andrei Zarenkov claimed on Friday morning that the bones had already been dug up and thrown away and the statue cut to pieces and scraped and was never going to be restored . A day later the same man claimed that more than 350 ethnic Russian police officers have already or will be resigning shortly in protest to having to discipline rioters. His claims were soon said to be an outright lie by police officials Politsei: jutt lahkuvatest venelastest politseinikest on vale Postimees 12 March 2007.

--Camptown 21:51, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh, well, somebody put it back again... --Camptown 21:57, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Law enforcement for non-nationals

Heading: "Law enforcement response": An estimated of 40-60 of the rioters were not citizens of Estonia, and were residing in Estonia under residence permits. The law enforcement and the Immigration Office are reportedly working on getting them exiled through revocation of the residence permits, pending conviction in a court of law.

What is the status of permanent Estonian residents with Russian citizenship? I understand, there are many of those living in Estonia. Do they also risk being expelled to Russia if convicted? Camptown 22:10, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

That's whom that quote descibed (where from?). About a third of ethnic russians in Estonia have Russian citizenship, and they could, tehnically, have their residence permits revoked. Those with 'alien's passport' can _not_ be expelled, as there's no place to expel them to. (Coincidentially, that's claimed to be a reason why Russian attempts to have all non-citizens take on Russian citizenship havent' been very successful). Anyway, in a TV interview today, foreign minister Urmas Paet said that expulsion isn't considered a realistic option, apart from one detained russian national who broke the conditions of his tourist visa by participating in the riots. He has already been handed over to Russian authorities on border. Ethnonazi 22:24, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

The central issue here is about citizenship. Two thirds of the 1/2 million ethnic Russians are without citizenship. I am astonished if only 60 of the almost 1000 arrested are without Estonian citizenship, I would assume the numbers were the other way around: 60 of one thousend had Estonian citizenship. -- Petri Krohn 22:28, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, most of those detained were released the next morning, after they were identified. Judges only granted longer detainment for those whose active participation in riots was positively proven by evidence on hand. While at it, you're wrong about 2/3 having no citizenship (half of them are Russian nationals), and there are 350k, not half a million ethnic russians in Estonia. Ethnonazi 22:37, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

For "technical reasons" expulsion to Russia is not possible for anyone. Russia will simply refuse to accept any expelled Estonian residents, even if they have taken Russian citizenship. Estonia manitains a kind of "concentration camp" for people it wants to expel but Russia refuses to accept. At the moment the camp only houses a few ex-Soviet military retirees. -- Petri Krohn 22:34, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Whatever the place is, it isn't a "concentration camp". If you insist of calling it that way then you should be aware that even Finland has similar institutions/places for the same purpose. 194.204.35.117 05:54, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Ah, stupid me - the quote was from the article itself. I'm sorry to say, the referenced newspaper article has been mistranslated. It's saying it 'would be legally possible' to deport foreign nationals who took part of the riots, not that 'it's being worked on'. Ethnonazi 22:37, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I understand that the Estonian police is known to be relatively competent in solving crime. Some years ago, a foreign businessman was murdered in Tallinn and the Police started the investigation by saying: "We'll have the murderer within 48 hours", and so they did! (We shall hope they caught the right guy..) Regarding all surveilance cameras and private pictures and video clips from the crime scene, the local prosecutors may have a busy time to look forward to. --Camptown 22:39, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

They had 16-hour workdays after the riot nights, so you could say they already have their hands full of work (my information on this aspect comes directly from one of them, a personal friend). Police asked for extension of the nominal 48-hour maximum detainment for majority of detainees - to have enough time for processing all photographic and video evidence, but judges blocked all cases for which the evidence at hand wasn't good enough. Thus, their personals were taken down and they walked out. Ethnonazi 22:46, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I would guess that even if they could walk out, they didn't automatically escape justice. Or is the legal enforcement so overwhelmed with cases that many of the criminal acts would just be written off? Camptown 22:59, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Not overwhelmed, but everyone was working serious overtime (only 4 prosecutors, for example). Those who walked (or, in many cases, were picked up by parents) were identified, photographed, had their fingerprints taken, etc. The circumstances of their arrests are on file. Ethnonazi 23:13, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, to sum things up - source has been misquoted. Ethnonazi 23:20, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Historical comparison

The Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt pointed out that he understands why the popular reaction about the statue has been so sharp: "If somebody had errected a statue of King Christian the Tyrant in Stockholm 500 years after [the Stockholm Bloodbath of 1520], it would also have been subject for controversy."

This unexpected twist must be music to Estonian's ears. Although, the statement sound like having been delivered at 3am at a party with too much hard liquor. ;) Bondkaka 22:51, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Nice comparison, though I've read better: Imagine a statue honoring Japanese liberators on Tiananmen Square. Ethnonazi 22:56, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

In Denmark, king Christian the Tyrant (a "liberator" who organized one of the worst massacres in Swedish history) is curiously enough called "Christian the Good". Reminds me of some Russian perception of "Great Soviet leaders" in the last couple of days... Camptown 23:03, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

If it had not been for Gustav Wasa, the "Pol Pot of the North", you too would be calling him Good. Bildt really fails to see the big picture. -- Petri Krohn 23:08, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Pol Pot of the North, sounds like the Finnish tabloid reporter H. Lindqvist? --Camptown 23:15, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Such comparisons are totally BS, they fail to take into account the fact that the Soviet Union DID win the war against fascism, AND Estonia has a half a million ex-Soviet residents. If Hitler had won the war, there would be a statue of him in central Moscow and 5 million Germans saluting it. So what! -- Petri Krohn 23:05, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

That's the thing. Who Soviets fought against and whether they won or not doesn't enter the equation. It's about the brutal occupation of Estonia. If a rapist has great CV and wonderful references, he's still a rapist. Ethnonazi 23:10, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, after the war, Estonia became a closed military zon for more than 40 years, with purges and a demographic churn that turned the poor country upside-down! --Camptown 23:12, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

To all of you: Please look at the notice at the top of the page: "This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject." If you can't say something relevant to the improvement of this article, don't say anything at all! Esn 23:17, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

"they fail to take into account the fact that the Soviet Union DID win the war against fascism". So you're saying Soviet Union fought against Mussolini? Interesting.. Curgny 08:39, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

DDoS attacks

From news: The DDoS attacks crippling access to Estonian governmental sites from outside world aren't the usual, distributed botnet type. Incoming connections have been traced to IP ranges used by Russian government. Ethnonazi 23:19, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

If verified, it should be added to the text. Camptown 23:23, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

It was Minister of Justice who claimed it. I'll try to dig up an actual linkable quote (in english) tomorrow morning, best I can do right now is [11] (in estonian). Won't edit anything here until I've worked my way through the rules and regulations governing submissions. Ethnonazi 23:33, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

This was also reported on Finnish (YLE?) TV news. The source of the traffic was not attributed to Russia but to armies of hijacked bot net machines troughout the world. -- Petri Krohn 23:48, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Naturally, as most major botnets are attributed to russian hackers, these being put to use was expected. Usual botnet activity shows a distributed pattern, though, apparently in this case abnormally large chunk of connections come from abovementioned IP ranges. Or (and that's a scary thought), Russian govt computers have been infiltrated by botnets. Ethnonazi 23:54, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Failed GA

This diff indicates that the article is nowhere near stable. ShadowHalo 02:57, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

• It's probably impossible for an article like this to meet all GA-criterias while being featured on ITN. Having followed the article for the last couple of days, I'm more surprized of its comparably high level of stability. --Camptown 07:39, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Juhan Kivirähk

News media have found resentment among the Estonians! Referring to Estonian newspapers who are quoting an Estonian sociologist named Juhan Kivirähk who is critizing the Goverment and asks for its resignation. According to Kivirähk, the Estonian government created the riots in order to show the world that it was impossible to negoitate with the Russians. This seems interesting (who is Juhan Kivirähk?), but we need direct sources to confirm this story! --Camptown 09:14, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Everyone is free to speculate, but it does not prove anything about the case at hand. 194.204.35.117 09:30, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

This is already mentioned in the article. But Juhan Kivirähk is some random sociologist who thought it was his time to shine. It's not really notable figure, or atleast he wasn't befor these events and his statement. Suva 09:33, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

He had some social study & poll company named Emor, IIRC. --82.131.86.22 09:42, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

He's held in fairly high regard, so definitely not an unknown. This refers to his op-ed piece is one of Estonia's larges daily newspapers Eesti Päevaleht on 30/04. It has caused quite a ruckus, drawing many counterarguments from his colleagues, as he's been the only notable figure to have voiced such opinion apart from Keskerakond (Centrist party, Estonian de facto russian party) functionaries. Ethnonazi 10:12, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

His connections with keskerakond are also ruomored, his beliefs to be one with keskerakond are confirmed. Suva 11:00, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Another Sociologist named Andrus Saar also expressed his concerns about the whole issue and so did 12 professors of Estonian Universities before the whole mess Borism 11:08, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Andrus Saar was one of those critisising Kivirähk's article, and last night 28 professors of Estonian universities (estonians, ethnic russians, western nationals) sent an open letter in support of govt. Ethnonazi 11:12, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

The Heroization of the deceased rioter

Should we mention this in pro-rioter propaganda. As the deceased Dmitri who got stabbed during the riots is largely heroized in russian media as one who gave his life protecting the holy statue. Statements go as far as blaming police in killing him. The information from eye-witnesses suggest that he was killed in conflict with other mareuders over a pair of jeans or something. Police hasn't confirmed anything concrete, but has denied any connetions between the death of the Dmitri and police activity. Also the police is holding someone named Oleg in captive as the suspect of murdering Dmitri. We need some sources to confirm both the russian media attitude towards the event and official and eye-witness statements. Suva 09:39, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Accoring to Russian News show Vesti, demonstrators are surrounding the Estonian Embassy in Moscow in a peaceful rememberance of Dimitri. Camptown 09:46, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Their actions are nothing but peaceful. (sarcasm) 194.204.35.117 10:02, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Yesterday a pregnant woman managed to escape the peaceful rememberance vigil with her small child, and the ambassador (with eventual assistance from militia) could get out to attend one meeting. Apart from that, the embassy is completely blockaded. Ethnonazi 10:15, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Sources sources! I can find estonian ones myself, but I am currently more interested in russian ones. Suva 10:21, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

According to the Russian news show Vesti, the Estonian Consulte at Moscow (where the peaceful demontration takes place) is currently not issuing viza to Estonia. An upset woman - who had her viza application delayed - was interviewed, comparing Estonia with fascism. One might wonder if she ever gets her viza... Actually, I think that kind of news reports ("We present the propaganda - you decide") are more honest than they appear to be in the first place. Camptown 10:55, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

A russian TV journalist has claimed the youth blocked her entry to the embassy when she was trying to apply for visa a few days ago: We live in free society and we don't want you to go there was a quote attributed to one youth org's leader. If required, can dig through my browser history for a link to russian newssite that published it.Ethnonazi 11:22, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

This article [[12]] Russian youth organisations have blockaded Estonian embassy confirms the fact of blockade, quoting embassy workers. 'Pregnant woman evacuated with OMON assistance' is also mentioned. Ethnonazi 11:16, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

In the early stages of the riots, there were concerns that Russian citizens could come to Tallinn to support the riots. Issuing of new visas to Russian *residents* (not citizens) was temporarily ceased for security purposes. Similarly, buses from Northeast Estonia towards Tallinn were, for a while, stopped en-route and passenger lists taken. The visa issuances would have been restored after the riots; unfortunately, the blockade at the embassy has made it impossible. Digwuren 11:22, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Arguable relevance of sections 3.2-5 and their excessive POV

I'd argue that Claims of police brutality, Situation at the Estonian embassy in Moscow, Pro-rioter propaganda and Law enforcement response sections are irrelevant to statue itself but rather are excessive POV of both sides. Borism 11:02, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Since we are dealing with "the worst riots seen in Estonia", the claims (and denials) of police brutality are justified. Camptown 11:03, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree, as the whole article tries to concentrate on the events surrounding the bronze soldier, not only the statue itself, otherwise it would only talk about the contstruciton of the solider and controversy section would only contain: "The statue was relocated because of the ethnic estonian and russian different representation of history". We should rather concentrate on keeping those sections NPOV. Suva 11:05, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I think they should remain, and it would be obviously relevant if the article was renamed "Bronze soldier controversy".--82.131.86.22 11:06, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Right now, it is agreed that the article is dealing with the Monument + Controversy. Camptown 11:07, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I removed some of the POV tags. And I plan to remove others after I have reviewed the content. Shall we call some sort of vote on the relevance? Suva 11:15, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

This concerns the problem with competing articles. Let's stick to the agreement from previous votes for the time being. Camptown 11:21, 1 May 2007 (UTC)