Talk:Jats

Archives
July 2005 – December 2006

---

NO IF NO BUT ONLY JATT

WE ABOUT TO FORM [[JATTISTAN COMANDO FORCE.WE DEMAND SEPRATE STATE OF HARIYANA,WESTERN UP,EASTERN RAJASTHAN ETC.PUNJABI JATS INVITE TOO.JO BHI JAT KI AULAD HAE SUPPORT US.JAT IS GREAT.JAT IS GREATER THEN ALL OF CAST OF INDIA.JO HUMSE TAKRAYEGA CHOOR-2 HO JAYEGA.JAI JATtISTAN,JAI HINDUSTAN. .==Patiala, Nabha and Jind==

Every history book I have read describes these three states as Sikh Kingdoms, so what are they doing here? They were not like the other wholly Jat Kingdoms. People like Arminder Singh are testimony to this. Any comments? Preceding comment unsigned by 82.36.147.99

Back up your {{disputed}} with citations. I've removed them, but you're welcome to place them again SHOULD you find citations. -Penwhale | Blast the Penwhale 11:24, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

===Dispute===[[maa ki chu.. dispute ki.no cast greater then jats.if anyone stand fingure on jats.we cut his hands.

Hi,

see refrences: History of the Sikh Misals by Bhagat Singh (Punjabi University, Patiala). SN Banerjee - A History of Patiala. Tazkirah-i-Phulkian - Bute Shah. Lepel Griffin - Raja's of Punjab. Tawarikh Guru Khalsa Part 2 Gian Singh. Some points to note:

1) Patial (Nabha and Jind) -THe Phulkians - were identified as one of the Sikh Misals.

2) As a Misal they followed Gurmatta or the meeting of Sikh Misal's that conveyed at Amritsar.

3) Sikh Misal's like the Ahluwalia helped defend the Phulkian's often.

4) The citation used to back up the article are spurious.

5) The fighting forcs of the Phulkian was not Jat in content but contained, Kalal, Tarkhan, Rajput, Julahai, Mazbhai's (all Sikh's).

6) The present day ancestors of these states are intertwined in Sikh politics. Captain Arminder Singh an example.

7) Guru Hargobind (Sikh Guru) - helped form the states by giving patronage and protection to Mohan (one of the first ancestor's of the Patiala state) against hostile Bhatti Rajputs.. It would not have been formed other wise. Mohan fought at Meharaj with Guru Hargobind (as a loyal Sikh), against the Mughal's.

8) Loyalty to the 10th Sikh Guru expressed in a Hukamnama (Edict) - HUkamname - Ganda Singh.

I can cite many other reasons and sources, but I move that these are NOT Jat Kingdom's but solely Sikh one's due to formation, charachter and custom. These should be moved to Sikh section.--Sikh-history 07:54, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Censorship?

I am disturbed that so many comments are being moved so quickly to the archives. Is there a good reason for this? Several notes I wrote included questions which were never answered before they were relegated to the archives. How can one have a full and open debate when this is going on? John Hill 03:27, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

It is true this article is pure POV and the refrences used are dubious. There is no discussion going on. --Sikh-history 07:55, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Jats Race

John hill suggests that Jats have been mixing for a long time;however is it not totally correct.Recent evidence suggest there has been a separation in groups in recent times,for instance [1].So it more likely Jats where mixed in ancient times and less so now.In fact Jats at the ethnic level are quite mixed ,however each clan may have its own history [2].I'll include the uzbek link in the main page.Here's a quote from the paper.

'In conclusion, our results show that, although people from the same lineage and clan share generally a recent common ancestor, no such common ancestry is observed at the tribal level, which is likely to be socially constructed. Further studies of other traditional societies are needed to evaluate the extent to which the pattern observed in Central Asia can be extrapolated to other world regions. In any case, our study demonstrates that the resolution of modern genetic markers allows us to make historical investigations at the scale of kinship groups and to practice a kind of “ethnogenetics.” It explores the roots of the descent groups in patrilineal populations and reveals the mythical nature of the genealogical links between people of a tribe and their claimed ancestor. As anthropologist Lawrence Krader pointed out, “genealogy is at once ideology and history” (Krader 1963a, p. 157).' —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jaspajat (talk • contribs) 17:23, 14 December 2006 (UTC).

Neutral Point of View

I believe this whole article (and associated articles on Jats) urgently needs to be carefully revised to ensure that it meets with the Wikipedia's "Neutral point of View" guidelines as it seems to contain much that could be classed as propaganda or wishful thinking - see NPOV. John Hill 23:09, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi John Hill, NPOV should be maintained. There may be modifications as per that policy. But you have deleted Physical features section which I could not understand. When you describe an object you have to write as it is. If nose is long you have to write that. If they are strong in physique you have to write that. What is racial feature here in describing a group of people whom British called Martial Race. When it is a race you have to write that. Physical features is one of criteria to study a race. I think it may added to the article. burdak 05:37, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi Shri Burdak: I am sorry I have to disagree with you. The previous section on "Physical Features" which I deleted had many things wrong with it and was anything but "neutral."

First of all, there is no agreed-on definition of the physical characteristics which make up the so-called "Aryan race". Several groups have made claim to being descended from the "original Aryans", including people from the region around Herat and neighbouring parts of Iran (ancient Aria) and some Germans, notably the Nazis. Now, I am sure you will agree that, in general, Heratis, Germans and Jats look very different from each other - so all three claims cannot be accepted and, without convincing proof available one way or the other, one must remain neutral.

No one really knows what are "pure Aryan features," or "pure Aryan characteristics" are. I am sure many Heratis and Germans would not agree with this way of describing Jats, and may even be offended. That is why it is so important to retain a "neutral point of view" NPOV.

And what exactly do "pure Aryan", "unmistakably Aryan", and "non-Aryan features" mean? Have a look at the Wikipedia articles on Aryan and Aryan Race.

Similarly, just because an old British report referred to the Jats as a "Martial Race" does not necessarily mean that the Jat were a racially distinct group. In fact, it is probably best interpreted that the Report either meant that they were a significant threat to the British or that they provided good troops for the British forces in India. The word "race" has been so misused over the years, and can imply so many different things, it is now almost meaningless unless very carefully defined by the author. See the Wikipedia article on race.

Further, there was a long quote from a Dr. Birereton (with no proper references given) which was extremely simplistic and full of generalizations. Worse, it was very insulting of Jat people. Comments such as: "Their intellectual facilities are not brilliant partaking more of shrewedness and cunning than ability" and "The Jat women are of very strong physique exceeding man in this respect proportionately speaking. They are not remarkable for personal beauty . . ." These are outrageous generalizations mainly demonstrating the prejudices of Dr. Birereton and have no place in a serious reference work. John Hill 14:34, 2 January 2007 (UTC) I therefore, removed this offensive quote of Dr. Birereton from the article some time ago. John Hill 06:40, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree with John Hill ,the Racial elements of Jats are not uniform but this is the problem with wiki, it does encourage fanatics.I'm supposed to be a Jat but I differ even from my father who is a good 30% bigger in size.Some jats I know have hooked noses ,straight etc.Some Jats have almost white faces ,some have Red or brown faces.My mother is almost white but my sisters are brown.Just type in Jat in google picture search .

Was Ashoka really a Jat?

I notice a fanciful modern image of Ashoka has been added to the article, implying that Ashoka was a Jat. In fact, this hypothesis rests on very little (if any) real evidence.

There are a number of speculations as to the background of Ashoka's famous grandfather, Chandragupta Maurya, but claimed connections with the Jats seems to be based solely on unverifiable statements made by Jat "historians" on the basis of a claimed quote from the Buddhist history, the Mahavamsa: "Mauryanam Khattyanam vamsha jata", supposedly taken from p. 27 of Geiger's translation of that book.

Some time ago I specifically queried this quote on this Talk page as I could not find it anywhere in Geiger's translation (see Archives), or in the original Pali. To date, I have never had this query answered so, until the evidence is given, one must assume that this quote is suspect, and cannot be taken seriously. If someone could please find the supposed quote in the Mahavamsa and provide me with the appropriate references I would be very grateful.

Although there does not seem to be any firm historical evidence regarding the ethnicity of the Mauryas, legends state that Ashoka's mother was the daughter of a poor Brahmin (see the Wikipedia entry on Ashoka).

Until good evidence is supplied from recognised historical sources, the claim that Ashoka (or, indeed, any of the Mauryas) was a Jat should be withdrawn and removed from the Wikipedia. John Hill 23:33, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Character

Would any fair-minded, reasonable Jats out there please help stop excessive claims on this page? The constant self-inflating claims being made here can only serve to bring ridicule upon Jats in general, which is not fair to other Jats. I am getting tired of having to counter the many overblown accounts of Jats and Jat history on this page. This sort of self-criticism should, I believe, be done by Jats themselves - Jats who would like to see a fair and honest portrayal of their people and their history, not a propagandistic rant on racial or communal superiority.

The most recent example is a section on "Character" inserted by someone who hasn't given their name or contact details. I will delete it from the article as I don't believe much of it can be substantiated - but I will include it below with the generalizations and inflated, boastful-sounding language put into italics so that other readers can decide for themselves whether such a paragraph deserves to be in what is a supposedly neutral and fair account of the Jats. If you think I have been unfair, please let me know. Here is the paragraph I have removed (italics mine):

Overall, the Jats have a very good self image. Jats are thoroughly independent in character, and assert personal and individual freedom, as against communal or tribal control, more strongly than any other people. They are very brave and hardworking and are filled with determination and pride. Jats usually have light brown skin, dark eyes(although light eyes are not uncommon) and dark hair.

Please don't get me wrong - there is no doubt that many Jats are strong individualists and are very hardworking and proud. But certainly ALL Jats don't share these qualities - and how can one fairly compare such characteristics with those of other groups of people? This smacks of racial prejudice to me and raises questions about the character of the author. John Hill 04:18, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Maurya and Jats

• Ashoka's famous grandfather, Chandragupta Maurya, has been claimed Jat on the talk page of Chandragupta Maurya, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Chandragupta_Maurya, you may see it. I tried to find more evidences and I find that other sources also mention this fact. These facts are:

• According to Ram Swarup Joon Mauryans being Jats, were denigerated by Brahmans to show their cotempt. according to him, Infact Maurya was not a caste but it was a gotra of Jats which is still found in Jats. The existence of Khoye Maurya gotra in Jats proves that Mauryans were Jats. Gupta was a title of Chandragupta Maurya and not the caste, as has been proved in the history of Chandragupta Maurya. He was a warrior of Jat caste.

• Gupta is degenerated form of Gapt, which is generally considered to be a corruption of Gaut[3]. (See-Gaut)

• Mor, Maurya, Maurana are Jat gotras of very old standing. Hence the rule of this dynasty has been given a high place in history of Jats.

• The Jat historian Bhim Singh Dahiya published a paper titled The Mauryas: Their Identity (Vishveshvaranand Indological Journal, Vol. 17 (1979), p.112-133) in 1979 and a book titled Jats the Ancient rulers (Jats the Ancient rulers, Dahinam Publishers, Sonipat, Haryana, by B. S. Dahiya I.R.S.) in 1982, wherein he concludes that the Mauryas were the Muras or rather Mors and were Jat of Scythian or Indo-Scythian origin. It is claimed that the Jats still have Maur or Maud as one of their clan name.[4]

• This view may become creditable only if it is accepted that the Jatts evolved from the Madras, Kekayas, Yonas, Kambojas and the Gandharas of the north-west borderlands of ancient Indian sub-continent. This is because king Ashoka's own Inscriptions refer only to the Yonas, Kambojas and the Gandharas as the most important people of his north-west frontiers during third century BCE. See: Rock Edict No 5 and Rock Edict No 13 ( Shahbazgarhi version). These are also gotras found in Jats.

• The view of Bhim Singh Dahiya that the Mauryas were Jat is supported from the fact that Khoye Maurya is clan of Jats found in Uttar Pradesh, India. The meaning of 'Khoye Maurya' is the 'lost Maurya' in Hindi language. The Khoye Maurya clan is not found in Rajputs. Moreover Madraks, Joon(Yona) and Gandharas are clans found in Jats.

• The Buddhist traditions preserved in Mahavamsa describes Chandragupta as coming of Kshatriya clan of Maurya: Mauryanam Khattyanam vamsha jata (Geiger Trans p 27). It means "Mauryas are Kshatriyas of Jat clan".

• A K Mittal in 'Political and Cultural history of India', page 126, 'Rahul Sankrityan' in 'Bauddha darshan', page 19 and Dr Atul Singh Khokhar in 'Jāton kī utpati evaṃ vistār (Jart tarangiṇī)(Origin and expansion of Jats), page 113, have mentioned with reference to Mahavansha and 'tatva prakashini' that Mauryas are kshatriyas belonging to Jat vansha.

• Dr Atal Singh Khokhar further writes, in 'Jāton kī utpati evaṃ vistār (Jart tarangiṇī)(Origin and expansion of Jats), at page 139 of the above book that Chandragupta Maurya has been mentioned in 'divyadān' as under in sanskrit:-

Moriyānaṃ khattīyānaṃ vaṃse jātaṃ sirīḍaraṃ chandraguttoti pañcata cāṇakyo brāhmaṇo tato navamaṃ dhanantaṃ ghātetvā caṇdakodhasā saṃkale jambūdvīāriha rajja sammisincisī

Meaning - Chandragupta, born un Maurya kshatriya vansha, killed nine Nandas with the help of Chanakya and established his rule in entire Jambudvipa.

• In the above sanskrit text it has been mentioned as chandragutt. Bhim Singh Dahiya has brought out to the layman reader, that Chandragupta Maurya, the Kushans, the second Guptas, and Harshavardhana were Jats. He showed how the G letter was a substitution for the J sound, as the J letter did not exist in the ancient Greek alphabet. The significance was in determining who the Guti were. According to Bhim Singh Dahiya by applying Grimm's law Guti becomes Juti or Jati or Jat.

• As per Spunar the ancestral abode of Mauryas was at 'Parshupur', who were Jatri (Jatrana) Jats of Mand Empire. Mand is also a Jat gotra. (see Mand)

• Maurya is not found in any other kshatriya caste. The logic that Mauryans being Jats, were denigerated by Brahmans to show their cotempt, further makes the claim strong.

• The above evidences show connection of Mauryas with Jats. burdak 16:07, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Ancestry of the Mauryas

Dear Sri Burdak: Thank you for getting me to have a look at the long, often heated, and, I believe, inconclusive, arguments about the ancestry of Chandragupta Maurya.

I think any neutral person would have to agree with the statement on the main page about Chandragupta Maurya that: "The ancestry of Chandragupta is still shrouded in mystery and not known for certain [30]. There are divergent views regarding the origin, and each view has its own set of adherents."

More long and detailed arguments on the subject can be found on the Ancestry of Chandragupta Maurya page. There is no need to repeat them all here.

What is clear is that this is a very contentious subject and, therefore, in keeping with the Wikipedia NPOV policy, articles should contain suitable qualifiers to any such claims. Therefore, it is permissible to make a statement such as: "many Jats writers believe (or claim) that Ashoka (or whomever) was a Jat" - so long as this is backed up by references. However, as there are so many competing points of view, it is not permissible to make a claim that Ashoka or Chandragupta was a Jat.

I will, therefore, go through this article and make some qualifications to any such claims and also remove the modern picture which claims to represent Ashoka Maurya which, in the interest of fairness, should not be represented on the Jat page. Moreover, I don't think it is known what he looked like, so this image is just some modern artist's fantasy.

Finally, I will ask you one last time if you (or any other readers) could please try to find the claimed reference to Ashoka being a Jat in the Mahavamsa which you keep referring to? I can find no trace of it in Geiger's translation or the Pali text. But if it does exist, and it can be checked in reputable sources, it is indeed an important reference which I think should be much better known.

If it does not exist, one can only assume the claim was made falsely and, therefore, it puts many of the other 'historical quotes' about Jats in this article into question. John Hill 00:45, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Who should we believe a westerners view of Indian history or an Indians view.Western historians have often made claims without any facts eg scythians were blonde blue eyed europeans etc without question.

if a desi individual could write an objective treatment on jat history, then by all means. But in this case it looks like an impartial authority is needed until my fellow desis can show a little maturity. --Sakredfire 14:41, 15 March 2007 (UTC)--24.10.28.47 14:13, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Please refrain from racist taunts

I strongly object to, and totally reject, the racist taunts made above by some anonymous author - someone without the decency to even sign his or her comments.

There is absolutely no valid reason to judge the accuracy of an historian on race or nationality. This is a clear case of racial prejudice. There have, indeed, been many biased accounts of Indian history made by both European and Indian writers. In fact, Sri Burdak below refers to bias by some Brahmin authors. Is this the sort of "Indians view" the author would like to have featured on this page?

Furthermore, if the author had taken the time to check my comments above they would have seen that I have already objected to biased, racist comments made by a "European" author against Jats, and therefore removed them from the article.

So, please refrain from this sort of ugly divisive nonsense in future. My only goal in contributing to this article is to present as accurate and unbiased account of Jats and their history as possible, so that Jats and everyone else may be able to have a reliable account of their culture and history.

I should add that this comment was made from the IP address 213.48.46.141 - see: User talk:213.48.46.141, which is a public-access site registered to The Royal Borough of Kingston upon Thames in England. It has been the source of a number of cases of vandalism on the Wikipedia and has been blocked several times in the past. I will report this racist comment on the talk page of that site and ask that it be blocked (again). John Hill 23:00, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

There is nothing racist about the following statement

'Who should we believe a westerners view of Indian history or an Indians view.Western historians have often made claims without any facts eg scythians were blonde blue eyed europeans etc without question.'

Just because John Hill does not like the comment it does not make it racist.It was not directed to anybody but is a statement of fact .The idea that there is no valid reason to question european authors, has John Hill forgotton the Nazis.On one hand John Hill complains about censorship which I attempted to correct,but when he reads something that he misinterprets or disagrees with he beomes the censor.The fact is I was the one who started the genetics section of this page (even though it is not very good).But it is the only section that is impartial and non-rascist.(As far as other Kingston users are concerned I can not comment).

As for Indian sources ,the idea that hindu jat nationalist sources are impartial or Brahmin sources are impartial is absolutely nonsense.

In Fact many sources John Hill and Burdak quote ,even the reading of ancient texts have been biased by western imperialist and nationalist,to point this fact out is not racist.

Dear Anonymous - please apologise

Your statement above ("'Who should we believe a westerners view of Indian history or an Indians view.Western historians have often made claims without any facts eg scythians were blonde blue eyed europeans etc without question") is clearly racist as it implies one should believe an Indian's view of Indian history over a "Westerner's" view, basing one's belief solely on their place of origin, rather than on the evidence they present.

This kind of extreme generalization based on a person's origins, and avoidance of dealing with the evidence is, by it's very nature, racist and repugnant, whether you wish to admit this or not.

I have never in my life suggested that I believe there is "no valid reason to question european authors". This is a completely unwarranted, unjustified and unjustifiable attack on myself and my character.

There can be no doubt that many "Westerners" are prejudiced and have many have presented biased accounts of Indian history - something I have always openly acknowledged - but so have many Indians.

Also, how can you ask: "has John Hill forgotten the Nazis"? when in my note above on this very same page (see: "Neutral point of view"), I specifically mention the Nazis and their racist fantasy that they were the true descendants of the "original Aryans"? Please, whoever you are, at least check your facts before you start writing.

I believe you owe me a public apology - although from the sort of untrue and hateful things you have already said I suspect I am asking in vain - but, please, it would be a very pleasant and welcome surprise if you did. Maybe then we could have a constructive dialogue and, together, help make a more accurate and trustworthy history of the Jat people available to readers of the Wikipedia.

I have nothing more to say at present - but if you wish to write to or about me again, please do at least pay me the courtesy of providing a name for me to reply to. (Perhaps you are ashamed to use your own name and prefer to hide behind a cloak of anonymity like some latter-day Ku Klux Klanner?) Even a "nom de plume" would be preferable than for me to have to reply to some nameless entity. Thank you. John Hill 03:49, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok MR Hill who should we believe a Englishman or an Indian when it comes to the history of the Ango-saxons.No apology is required ,as I pointed out my comments are not directed to you, if they where I will state it as I have done now.As for term westerner,you seem to imply a racial connotation ,I am a westerner interms of language/culture but I am not white.Why do you assume all western historians are not descended from India.As to being anonymous,it is called freedom of expression.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.48.46.141 (talk • contribs) 15:41, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Reply to Anonymous

OK Anonymous - I will try to get through to you on these issues once again. First, I do not judge any historian's credibility on their race, colour, place of birth, sex, or cultural affiliations. I would not believe ANYTHING on the basis that the person who said it was an Englishman or an Indian. Do you?

In regards to history, whenever I can, I check the original evidence. When this is not possible, I try to check everything I can about the subject, including competing theories, and then assess the understanding, knowledge and competency of the historian and make an informed judgment about whether it is worth my while taking their theories or statements seriously. Then, I may "accept" their arguments as a "working theory", at least until further evidence or better arguments become available. (Please note that I have not used the word "believe" here - I do not "believe" historical matters unless there is really strong and convincing historical and/or archaeological evidence and, even then, I am always open to change my assessment if new information contradicts what I previously accepted).

You are the one who first implied a racial connotation as your comments suggest that "Western" historians cannot be trusted (at least in regard to Indian history), while Indian ones can. You are the one who put "Westerner" and "Indian" historians in opposition - not me.

What ever do you mean by stating that I "assume all western historians are not descended from India"? I don't understand what you could possibly mean by such a comment. I have never said any such thing.

I agree, you certainly have the right to remain anonymous, but it does seems a bit rude and cowardly to make serious accusations about a person's character from behind a veil of secrecy.

Several of your accusations and insinuations about me I find not only false but highly offensive (such as the one where you imply that I believe that "there is no valid reason to question european authors"). Unfortunately, it is clear you don't intend be reasonable and fair, or to make an apology. Unless and until you change your mind, I have nothing further to say to you, although I reserve the right to point out to other readers any false, misleading or racist comments that you may make in future. John Hill 03:52, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Jat history recognition

Thanks John Hill, for your comments. I had earlier also asked you about the comment refered about Jats in Mahavansha to verify. As I have reproduced some sanskrit verson from the authors refered above such as A K Mittal in 'Political and Cultural history of India', page 126, 'Rahul Sankrityan' in 'Bauddha darshan'etc, these are not Jats but reputed authors. They have also mentioned it. We have to find in Mahavamsa and 'tatva prakashini' books refered. I do not have these books.

I have added in my earlier note by giving Grimm's law how historians have come to conclusion that Gupta were Jats. In sanskrit version I quoted above gutt is for jutt or jat. If some body has these books may bring first hand facts from them.

In Indian history there is a lot of bias against Jats. The traditional writers and record keepers were brahmans. Jats were not in proper tuning with them because they did not believe in superstions and false ficticious preachings. So origin of Jat rulers were termed 'shrouded in mystery' or they were called even Shudras. This thing has been made clear by Deva Samhita, which is there in the text of the Jat article. In the shloka-17 of 'Deva Samhitā' when Pārvatī asks about the origin of Jats, Shiva tells Parvati that:

गर्व खर्चोत्र विग्राणां देवानां च महेश्वरी Garva kharchotra vigrānam devānām cha maheshwarī

विचित्रं विस्‍मयं सत्‍वं पौराण कै साङ्गीपितं Vichitram vismayam satvam Pauran kai sāngīpitam || 17 ||

Meaning - "The history of origin of Jats is extremely wonderful and their antiquity glorious. The Pundits of history did not record their annals lest it should injure and impair their false pride and of the vipras and gods. We describe that realistic history before you."

For the reasons behind these historical facts you have to understand Jat people. I do not know to what extent you have interaction with Jats or if you have ever lived with them. There is one saying about Jats that they are good masters but bad subordinates. They are very egoist and if somebody hurts his ego he can go to any extent in revenge. R.C.Majumdar is a very reputed author of Indian history. Even he also recognized that there was bias in writing the history of Jats. R.C.Majumdar in his book "History of culture of the people of India, the clasical age" (page 42) writes about their role in stemming the tide of Islam for two centuries as under:

"From the very commencement through every one of these routes. The early naval raids against Thana, Baroch and Debal and subsequent raids in the same direction mark the vain efforts to reach India by sea, of the land routes, the Kheyber pass was guarded by Kabul and Zabul while the Bolan pass was protected by the brave Jats of Kikan, If there had been history of India written without prejudices and predilections the heroic deeds of these brave people, the jats who stemmed the tide of Islam for two centuries, would certainly have received the recognition they so richly deserved." burdak 17:18, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Reply to the above note

Dear Sri Burdak: Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful reply to my comments. I agree with you that many accounts of Jats and their history have been very biased and even racist. It is for this very reason that I think it is so important to try to present as reliable, and as accurate an account as is possible now. Repeating others' claims without checking their sources is always dangerous.

Making overblown claims about the background of any nation or group of people is just as misleading and divisive as understating their achievements and, in the long run, will only serve to hurt the people about whom the overblown claims are made - as well as fostering resentment and even hate from other groups. So, I believe, it is most important to be as accurate as possible and, when we are not certain of our facts, to clearly state this.

Ideally, a comprehensive review of Jat history should be undertaken where claims made are carefully checked against original sources by well-qualified and neutral scholars. I am certainly not qualified to do this myself and so I am appealing to other readers who are qualified to please do this much-needed research.

I first became involved in this dispute because I objected to claims that Kanishka was a Jat. After studying Kushan history for almost 30 years I have come to the conclusion that, until more evidence surfaces, there is no way to be certain of Kanishka's ethnic background, or even his first language.

I would be thrilled if someone could find the reported quote from the Mahavamsa apparently linking the Mauryas to the Jats. The Mahavamsa is regarded as a generally reliable document on Sri Lankan history and such a quote in it would be an important discovery. However, even if it does exist (and I have made quite a thorough search without finding it), we must remember that the Mahavamsa was not written down until about the 6th century CE - some 800 years after the fall of the Mauryas, and so such a quote would still have to be referred to with some qualification.

Now, to a couple of other points: Yes, I agree, R. C. Majumdar is "a very reputed author of Indian history", and I am sure he is quite right that the role Jats have played in the history of India has often been understated and unrecognised.

And, yes, I have known many Jats throughout my life; some of whom have been amongst my closest friends - which is why I have a particular interest in this page. I grew up in Trinidad in the West Indies among the descendants of Indian migrants and many of my playmates and schoolmates were of Indian descent. Most of them were Hindus and Muslims, but only a few were Jats. However, one of my best friends as a young man was Jitander Singh, a Sikh of Jat descent, who I worked with in a Virus research laboratory. Later, in Vancouver, Canada I came to know many Sikh Jats (one of whom I dated for several months). I have made several trips and spent several years in India and Pakistan, much of that time in the Punjab. I have shared houses with Jats, worked with Jats, and socialised with Jats but, I must admit, I am no expert on Jat history and culture, though I do have a personal interest in them. I hope this answers your questions. Sincerely, John Hill 00:31, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Whose a jat

Why does this article assume the Jats of today are the same as the Jats of the past.Ethnic groups are fluid and it is very likely that many of the Jats of today have no relation to the Jats of the past.For instance Indo-greeks of the past are probably now Jats or Brahmins or even Dalits.Also the item on the life style is rather biased,for instance to state that Jats of today don't it meat is nonsense .Muslim Jats eat meat, many sikh Jats eat meat (and drink).One can only say that 'most Hindu ' Jats don't eat meat,and that is more to do with fact they are Hindu rather than being a Jat.Plus many muslim Jats marry cousins,in fact the item should be headed 'Life style of Indian Hindu Jats'. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.48.46.141 (talk) 15:59, 11 January 2007 (UTC).

A plea to put a stop to untruthful, misleading entries

On 28th January, 2007 someone working from a computer with the ID of 213.122.25.190 changed the statement: "According to some Jat writers ancient Jat kingdoms include those of:

   * Chandragupta Maurya
   * Ashok Maurya
   * Samudragupta
   * Chandragupta II
   * Kaniska
   * Yasodharman
   * Harshavardhana"

He or she changed the first part of this statement (without noting that this is what they had done) to read: "According to historians and scholars[38]. some ancient Jat kingdoms included those of:"

Now, this sentence very misleading because, in fact, many, if not most, modern historians and scholars would NOT agree with this statement.

But, even worse, the reference given is to Swami Dayananda Saraswati's book Satyarth Prakash and I have just checked the translation of this book and cannot find a single reference to any of these kings or to Jats in it. So, whoever has inserted this lie has obviously been intending to mislead readers.

Please - the Wikipedia is not the place to be pushing some kind of nationalistic or racist propaganda and all right-minded persons, including, I feel certain, most Jats, would be horrified at this misuse of the Wikipedia.

This is not the first time this kind of trick has been played on this page. This sort of malicious nonsense will only serve to bring Jats in general into disrepute.

Moreover, I don't have the time to keep policing it and checking for false references and the like, and nor should I have to. Would other readers and editors please keep a close eye on this page (and ones associated with it) to make sure this doesn't keep happening? Come on all you fair-minded Jats - help put a stop to this deliberate misrepresentation of your history! It is quite glorious enough without being artificially pumped up with lies and misrepresentations.

I will, for the moment, change the wording back to what it was previously.

Sincerely, John Hill 10:16, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Sort of the neutrality issue

Do NOT remove warning tags. Explain, or it will be reverted. - Penwhale | Blast the Penwhale 05:39, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Do not delete contents

I find that some contents of the article and talk page have been deleted without any explaination. The Archive of this talk page is blank. It should be reverted back. Opinions may differ but we should reach to some conclusions before deletion. Contents on page may be ratained till strong counter evidences are available. burdak 06:59, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Reverted Archives

Dear Shri Burdak (and other interested readers): I have restored the Archives as best I could. This is the first time I have done such a thing so I hope I have done it properly - but please let me know if I have missed anything or done anything wrong. Cheers, John Hill 14:41, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Dear John Hill, Thanks for the action of restoring the deleted content from talk page. It is OK.burdak 02:34, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Who is having who on? Please help make this a good, balanced account of Jats and their culture.

I just noticed the following overblown racist nonsense in the "Life and Culture of Jats" section:

"Jats are thoroughly independent in character -this was noticed many times by British Empire army officiers- and assert personal and individual freedom, as against communal or tribal control, more strongly than any other people. . . . Jats are by nature adamant if they are treated with contempt or injustice. They are independent by nature, self-conscious, and never hesitate to give their life for their people in times of war."

Does the writer really think anyone other than a fanatic is going to believe that Jats "assert personal and individual freedom, as against communal or tribal control, more strongly than any other people."? Or that they (presumably meaning ALL Jats): "never hesitate to give their life for their people in times of war."

Does the writer really think that only Jats get upset if they are treated with contempt or injustice? Does the writer not realise that, by making such statements, he (or she) is treating ALL other peoples with contempt?

Such ridiculously overstated generalizations and comments have no place in an Encyclopedia such as the Wikipedia and will only cause readers to ridicule Jats and see them as braggarts, racists and liars. It can only bring Jats in general into disrepute - and this would be totally unfair to other Jats.

I am getting very tired of trying to tidy this page up and make it a reasoned, balanced account of Jats and their culture - and nor should I have to - I am not a Jat. There must be plenty of very sensible and well-educated Jats out there who would be embarrassed to see this sort of divisive nonsense being promoted in public.

Please, would some level-headed Jat take this responsibility on themselves? And, while you are at it, please have a look at all the other articles related to Jats and purge them of this sort of garbage? John Hill 10:27, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Harshavardhana was probably not a Jat

I have just removed Harshavardahana from the list of ancient rulers claimed to be Jats. According to Xuanzang, Harsha was of the 吙舍 feishe or Vaishya caste. See: Watters, Thomas. On Yuan Chwang's Travels in India. Two volumes. 1904-1905, Royal Asiatic Society, London. One volume reprint: Munshiram Manoharlal, Delhi, 1973, pp. 343-345; and the Grand dictionnaire Ricci de la langue chinoise. 7 volumes. Instituts Ricci (Paris – Taipei). Desclée de Brouwer. 2001. Vol. II, p. 578.

However, according to some historians they were Jats, but this appears to be based solely on a suggestion made by Alexander Cunningham in 1871 that Xuanzang must have mistaken "the Vaisa, or Bais Rajput for the Vaiya, or Bais, which is the name of the mercantile class of the Hindus". Cunningham, Alexander. The Ancient Geography of India: The Buddhist Period, Including the Campaigns of Alexander, and the Travels of Hwen-Thsang. 1871, Thübner and Co. Reprint by Elbiron Classics. 2003., p. 377.

As Thomas Watters has pointed out, this is most unlikely as Xuanzang, "had ample opportunities for learning the antecedents of the royal family, and he must have had some ground for his assertion." Watters, Thomas. On Yuan Chwang's Travels in India. Two volumes. 1904-1905, Royal Asiatic Society, London. One volume reprint: Munshiram Manoharlal, Delhi, 1973, pp. 344-345.

Proponents of this improbable hypothesis apparently include: Bhim Singh Dahiya in his Jats, the Ancient Rulers, A clan study in the Pre Islamic period, 1982, Sterling Publishers New Delhi. and Thakur Deshraj, in Jat Itihas (Hindi), Maharaja Suraj Mal Smarak Shiksha Sansthan, Delhi, 1934, 2nd edition 1992 page 87-88. who apparently claim that "Harsha’s clan was Virk, but Dilip Singh Ahlawat claims that he belonged to the Bains clan of Jats. The Virk clan is linked to the Virks of Mandsaur, Central India, and Bains to the Punjab. Both Bains and Virk are said to be clans of the Jats."

For more details see the revised page on Harsha. John Hill 05:51, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Request for an apology by Ravi Chaudhary

Ravi Chaudhary:

Thank you for your recent invitation to join your Jat History Yahoo group (at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/) to present my “arguments” regarding my comments on articles relating to Jats on the Wikipedia. Regretfully, I must decline as I am already over-committed to a number of on-line groups as well as working on Wikipedia articles and preparing three books for publication. I really cannot take on more at this time.

What I would like to say to your readers, and readers of the Wikipedia, is that I am more than happy to discuss the reasons for any suggestions or changes I make to Wikipedia articles on the appropriate “Talk” or “discussion” pages in the Wikipedia itself.

I should also add that any comments I have made in the past or may make in the future have been and will always be signed by me, with my real name, John Hill. You can be assured that any remarks or changes made in the Wikipedia without my name attached were not made by me.

Now, I would like to reply to the comments you have posted today (3rd March, 2007) on your group’s discussion page about me and my work which I think are unfair and offensive.

Someone wrote in to your group suggesting that I am “basically a good scholar” and that I have posted a [draft] translation from the Hou Hanshu on the internet. You have replied: “Unfortunately, he has become so enamored with those manuscripts that he has started to believe them to be the gospel truth. There is a difference between making a translation and then reinterpreting \ the translation. . . .”

I am at a loss as to what could possibly have led you to make this false accusation. If anyone would like to go back over my discussions on the Jat “Talk” page (and the archives) they will find that I have only once made a very brief reference to the texts I have been translating (and never even mentioned them by name). All my other remarks are based on, or refer to, other sources. And to say that I “have started to believe them to be the gospel truth” is a most unfair and unwarranted attack on my integrity as a scholar and, indeed, as a person.

Mr. Chaudhary, I ask you for a public apology both on your list and in the Wikipedia. John Hill 00:40, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Response >>

Dear Mr. Hill

All you are doing is to push your POV, and deleting and re deleting material that does not suit your POV.

I for one decline to get into this revert and re-revert war.

You have been asked to join the “Jathistory” group and prove your case if you can, rather than clutter up the article here.

You choose not to.

You are welcome to change your mind at any time

The URL is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/

Ravi Chaudhary

Ravi Chaudhary 20:15, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Article in need of help

There are some very prejudicial remarks in this article which I have tried to remove such as "Jats are thoroughly independent in character - this was noticed many times by British Empire army officiers, assert personal and individual freedom, as against communal or tribal control, more strongly than any other people. They usually have light brown skin, dark eyes (although light eyes are not uncommon), dark hair"

This is offensive as this makes an exclusive trait of something that is an inherent human faculty in many tribes, races and peoples. Therefore removed.

The reference of usually light brown skin and occasional light eyes is nonsense as what survey or research has been done on the Millions of Jats of India, Pakistan, UK, USA and around the world to be able to assert such a strong claim? They are obviously Indians so appear Indian in appearance. I feel the article is trying it's best to assert foreign origins, looks and even native traditions.

The food habit section is nonsensical and it's relevance in this article is questionable. Does the Jat race have it's own unique eating habits?! Does any other Indian tribe (not religion, I said tribe) have it's own unique eating habits? I feel this should be removed or re worded.

The reference of constant conflict with Gakkers etc by the time of babur is again wrong. The actual babur-nama, states that the Gakkhers were the chiefs and rulers of the Jats. Even ravi said it was untenable in the archived page, but still allowed it to remain in the article and thus continue to mislead readers. Hence removed.

Where is the mention of the migrations of many Jat tribes into Kashmir? Mirpur is dominated by Jats and yet no mention of their history is made. Do only the ancient "questionable" theories only warrant room here? What of the simple farmers and hardworking Jat tribes who never fought but remained peaceful cultivators? What do the Jat chronicles state regarding this area of the tribes history?

I will look into further work on here as I get time. At the moment, a lot of work needs to be done.

Any further suggestions welcome.

--Rahpal 15:38, 4 March 2007 (UTC) Have changed much of the language which was very biased. But vandals seem to be changing it back. I dont see why clarifying points and tidying up the language would make people angry and change it back. This is not a Jat site, so please stop making trouble here.--Rahpal 20:33, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Dear Rahpal, you seem to be born on Wikipedia on 4 March 2007 and have deleted lot of content from Jat page. If you go on deleting this way it will be left with a stub. You are deleting well referenced paras saying no proof. When it is cited properly what proof is needed? When Babur wrote Babarnama he wrote about himself only why should he write about deed of Jats or Rajputs. How can you say he was wrong? Have you contributed this article or any other article on Wikipedia about a social group. You go to Rajput article and find that men are born from fire or by the power of mantras. See here a para from Rajput article produced here "The Agnivanshi lineage, claims descent from four persons who were born from fire or by the influence of Ved Mantras. According to Pouranic legend as found in Bhavishya Purana,an yagna was held at Mount Abu, at the time of emperor Ashoka's sons. From the influence of Mantras of the four Vedas four Kshatriyas were born". Now have tried to correct it? Why are you so worried about Jat article? Your good contributions are welcome but go on deleting can not be understood. If you know about Jats something then add. There seems bias in your approach. Please refrain from deletion. burdak 13:52, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Notice the language of the article. The Agnivanshi clans CLAIMS descent...Puranic LEGEND. These are clearly stories, and not meant to be regarded as historical fact. Besides, we don't have very many primary sources on our history. The Babur-nama is a good source of information when it makes mention of historical fact. Mughal bias does come into play, but bias would have no reason to distort whether or not Gakkars were Jat chieftains. --Sakredfire 14:42, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Deletion of section referring to a claim by Alberuni that Krishna was a Jat

I have just removed the section where it was claimed that: "The Persian traveller Biruni stated that Lord Krishna was a Jat . . .". Alberuni claims that Krishna (Vâsudeva) had a child in Mathura by a Jatt and that this child was also called Vâsudeva. In his account of this, Alberuni refers to his mother as coming from "a Jatt family, cattle-owners, low Śûdra people." This may very well have been an attempt by a Muslim writer to denigrate the Hindu god. (Sachau, Edward, C. Alberuni's India. Rupa & Co. 2002. p. 396. ISBN 978-8171676408). I, therefore, don't think this derogatory reference to a much-loved Hindu god has any place in a general article on the Jat people. In any case, this is an obviously legendary story which has little, if any, historical value. John Hill 02:26, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree, this is not a good source to quote this from, the full passage is a derogatory statement. It has clearly been sanitised to mislead.

Don't be biased

Hi Dear John Hill, I have gone through your recent edits and notes. It seems there is some bias in your edits against Jats. Firstly you deleted reference of Jats in Mahavamsa simply because on the basis of the fact that you did not find it in Online edition of Mahavamsa, without going in to details of the printed book which had been referred. You deleted this content even from discussion page of Chandragupta Maurya, which was unwanted. Entries from discussion pages are not to be deleted. Secondly you mentioned that Swami Dayananda has not mentioned about Jats simply on the basis of Online Edition of Satyartha Prakash. Here it is to be made clear that in his book Satyartha Prakash he has mentioned about Jats specifically a story of Jatji and Popji in which he ridicules the orthodox philosophy of Brahmans and how Jatji rectified. He has also given chronology of Aryan rulers in Satyartha Prakash. Before deletion you should be fully sure. Thirdly you deleted Ancient Jat rulers section from Jat People article. I do not know what is your intention. The ancient rulers believed to be Jats have some references. We can give those references and can say that further research is needed to testimony the facts. But the deletion will loose these references and we will not reach to any conclusion. Lastly you deleted Jat reference to Krishna. Krishna was having 16000 wives and obviously his descendants are there in this world. If Jats have any ancestry linkages it will reduce his status. It is of academic interest to know the linkages. It is in Jats that there is a clan called Kasania or Krishnia meaning descendants of Krishna. You do not have counter evidences for deletion. You contributed minimum contents to this article on Jats but doing the deletion work regularly. When you do not have any content to contribute then how can you decide which content needs deletion lacking the facts when references are already there. The historians who have mentioned these linkages are not Jats only but from all castes of Indian society. So it is not the fact that only Jats are glorifying this community. The existence of more than 3000 clans in the Jat caste shows its social diversity and should be considered as a testimony that these have been rulers in ancient times. In India the social groups have been always aligned with the ruling people. Because of this fact we find many clans common in Jats, Rajputs and Gujars, as they have been rulers at different periods in history. I have also seen your comments on Raphal’s discussion page where you write as if to correct the Jat article is your motto. It is not in good taste. It appears that your discussion with Ravi Chaudhary has made you to be biased. I hope you will keep a balance and not delete Jat contents. Discussions are for the betterment of Wikipedia and not to damage its contents. burdak 10:39, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

This is wrong.

The Krishnia, could also be named after another forefather. Such things happen over time. Are you suggesting that the divine Krishna's descendants would still be known by that name almost 5 thousand years later?! I dont think so.

None of the kings mentioned are known without doubt as Jats, despite what a suggestion by a isolated writer says. Chandra vanshi's (the forefathers of the Yadus, Bhattis and Sidhus, Brars) are even theorised to be descendants of aliens by one western writer, should we include that? Ofcourse not. So be reasonable.

You are very biased and I agree with Mr Hill, you are sanitising some statements like Krishna was a Jatt. If you are to use this source, then use it fully! Add the full passage which states the low Sudra status part? It was a misinformation that you sanitised and included. Thats dishonesty in disseminating info on here. Be real.

There is no info about the rest of the proud Jatt regions, such as Malwa etc. I would like this to be expanded.

--Mein hoon don 14:49, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with John too. Burdak, you accuse John of bias, but display bias in excess yourself. My cousin's family's surname is Gupta. He is not a Jatt. By claiming anyone and everyone in indian history was a jatt, you offend other indians. This isn't because being a jatt is offensive, but you're taking away from the history of their own clans by trying the build up yours. Besides, genetically most indians are fairly uniform anyway.--Sakredfire 14:51, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Dear Sakredfire, The Guptas of today and the Gupta Dynasty are two different things. Guptas of today are vaishyas, but the people of Gupta Dynasty were not Vaishyas. They were kshatriyas. The historians who proved them to be Jats have been mentioned in this discussion. It is not my view but of the historians who have written so. I do not accuse John Hill for this. My point was on bias in deletion. Deletion leads to loss of Data. You can add fresh points counter to my points. It is welcome. It should be with suitable sources. It is surprizing on history part that they know everything about Guptas and Mauryas except their origin. It is this point we are searching. Thanks, burdak 17:18, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it's very poor how this article is getting marred with "maybe", "legend", "historians proved" on issues that have never been proven. Krishna point is blatantly wrong and should have no place here. Why is there no proper history of the past few centuries? Why do these "biased" editors keep displaying theories instead of hard, undisputable facts for all to read and be inspired and educated about? There are too many people like this on wikipedia....I have put back the clarification that such kingdoms were not hard proven Jatt kingdoms. Do not remove it, as you are misleading people here Mr Burdak, and you know this very well--Mein hoon don 13:46, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I have seen that you have done many changes on Jat articles without providing any references.Nobody is preventing you from giving the factual history rather than "maybe", "legend", "historians proved" statements. I do not believe in removing but it seems that you are simply finding falt without putting facts based on sources. Hope you will add positive factual historyburdak 17:00, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

And I have seen that you are following me around wikipedia and yet are not actually focussing your attention on neutralising this article. Nobody can prevent me from contributing, but you seem to be prevented from getting off your romanticising and self serving position and stating hard facts. You also rather conveniently forget, that you yourself are the one who is adding the ridiculous "maybe", "legend" lore and misleading readers. You have already been caught out above with the Krishna point by Alberuni. How many more things I wonder are you also going to be caught out on as the discoveries come to light? Hope you will provide some factual history for a change, rather than any more unreliable legends and jackanory stories.....--Mein hoon don 17:13, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Reply to Shree Burdak - “history” versus “legend”

Dear Shree Burdak: It seems to me that we have had this discussion in various forms several times already and it is certainly getting to be very tiresome, repetitive and long-winded. I will try once more to make myself clear – but if these differences continue I will have to appeal for help from the Wikipedia Administrators. I apologise in advance for the length of my reply but you have raised a number of points and made a number of accusations.

What I have objected to on the Jat page have been the many and regular confusions between legendary material and well-documented historical events as well as unsupported, or misquoted (and even sometimes falsely supported or attributed) claims made by various writers.

Even worse, perhaps, have been the grossly inflated claims and frequent racist comments, showing that this page has been made the forum of some ruthless people with a very low regard for accuracy and truth.

As you are well aware, many other readers have also been complaining about these issues and there have been numerous arguments on these Talk pages about them – it is not just me as you seem to be implying.

This continuing bickering and re-editing is a huge waste of time. I suggest that the whole matter should be reported to Administrators to check the article and all the many references and maybe “lock it”, or restrict access to it after that process is completed.

However, as you specifically refer to edits I have made, I will take this opportunity to answer them (again) one by one, in the order in which you brought them up.

Point 1a: You have made the comment that I have: “deleted reference of Jats in Mahavamsa simply because on the basis of the fact that you did not find it in Online edition of Mahavamsa, without going in to details of the printed book which had been referred.”

As I did not have a copy of the book available, I did check the on-line version at: http://lakdiva.org/mahavamsa/editorsnote.html which claims to be the full scanned text of the first 37 chapters of Geiger’s book, which are, apparently, the only sections he referred to as the Mahavamsa. One can only assume that p. 27 of his printed book (which you refer to) must have been included in this scan – especially as it is claimed to be from the Mahavamsa. Just to be certain, though, I will try to obtain his book on inter-library loan and then check again and report back to this Talk Page. (This process will likely take several weeks as I live in a very remote region). In the meantime, if anyone has the book and could send me a scan of this page – please email it to me –with all the publishing details (my email address is available on my User Page).

Point 1b: You state that I “deleted this content even from discussion page of Chandragupta Maurya, which was unwanted.” This is completely untrue! I removed the so-called quote from the body of the main article – not the discussion page – have a look at the appropriate entries for 11 January 2007. Please stop distorting the truth and attacking me unfairly!

Point 1c: I have discussed in detail my reasons for my suspicions about this so-called quote from the Mahavamsa more than once. In fact I asked you as early as 4th November last year (see Archives of this Talk Page) to show proof that such a quote really exists – you have still to answer me.

Point 2. What do you have against on-line books? When a published book is properly scanned there should be the whole text of the original. I checked the whole text of the English translation of the Satyartha Prakash by Swami Dayananda, Sarasvati, Chiranjiva Bharadwaja, Published 1975, Sarvadeshik Arya, Pratinidhi Sabha, 732 pages, at: http://books.google.com/books?id=920AAAAAMAAJ&vid=OCLC05080824&dq=Dayananda+Sarasvati&q=Jat&pgis=1#search I have checked for keywords such as “Jat” (and all words beginning with these three letters including “Jatji”), as well as “Popji” and other key words – without any of them occurring in the text. If you can show how and where the so-called references you are interested in occur in the printed book but not the on-line version – please do so.

Point 3: You say I: “deleted Ancient Jat rulers section from Jat People article. I do not know what is your intention. The ancient rulers believed to be Jats have some references. We can give those references and can say that further research is needed to testimony the facts. But the deletion will loose these references and we will not reach to any conclusion.”

If you check the many notes I have made you will see that I have clearly pointed out that there is no general agreement amongst scholars on the family background of Kanishka, or the Mauryas, the evidence is extremely sparse and insufficient at the moment to prove anything. Just because someone makes a claim in print does not mean it is worthy of being included in the Wikipedia. For example: if someone published a book claiming Abraham, Adam, or Muhammad were Celts – should this be inserted in the Wikipedia as if it was worthy of consideration?

Point 4: You state: “. . . you deleted Jat reference to Krishna. Krishna was having 16000 wives and obviously his descendants are there in this world. If Jats have any ancestry linkages it will reduce his status. It is of academic interest to know the linkages. It is in Jats that there is a clan called Kasania or Krishnia meaning descendants of Krishna. You do not have counter evidences for deletion.”

I really don’t know how to answer this but, I can assure you that the vast majority of people in the world would find it rather hard to believe that Krishna had 16,000 wives. I am not critical of your religious beliefs – you are quite entitled to hold them – but please don’t expect other people to accept what you say as fact, even if it is found in some ancient scripture. If you discussed them as religious traditions and properly qualified them, I would have no argument with you – but that is not how they were presented.

If Krishna really had that many wives and died in 3102 BCE (as you have previously stated), he is very probably an ancestor of all of us – so why claim him specifically as a Jat? Why quote a Persian Muslim author who lived some four thousand years later as an authority on this subject? Furthermore, why quote someone (Alberuni) who claims he is descended from a Sudra woman if you are trying to prove he was a Jat? And, finally, if one wishes to quote from Alberuni about Krishna – should the story about Krishna’s partner (and mother?) came from a Jat family of “low Śûdra people” be included – not just the “sanitised” statement that Krishna “was a Jat.”

Point 5: I can see nothing wrong in deleting what I see as false or misleading information, legendary material presented as facts, and racially supremacist propaganda from any article (and I assure you I do the same on other pages I come across). I have had little to add to the more than ample coverage of Jats. I am well aware that “it is not the fact that only Jats are glorifying this community.” You will notice that there are huge portions of the article (in fact the majority of it) I have never questioned or discussed. There is no need for me, as you suggest, to add to the already very detailed accounts of Jat history – only to point out and/or remove questionable or falsified material.

In general, I have great admiration for Jat people and their history and am proud to have had many fine and close Jat friends. If I was a Jat I would be glad to tell the world of my ancestors’ background and history – and there would be no need at all for me to make up fanciful stories. But I would be very embarrassed and angry if I found members of my own people making false or unsubstantiated boastful claims.

In fact, I have frequently found myself facing up to “white” racists in many countries, and I believe it is my duty to speak up when this happens and not go along with it. Sometimes I have been able to reason people out of their hatreds, but I must admit that it has more often been quite ugly and frightening and I have been badly beaten for it more than once. I can’t say this has made my life easier or happier, but at least I can, after all these years, still look in the mirror and not despise myself for a coward on such issues.

Most large groups of people contain fanatic minorities who distort the past to suit their own ends, or to compensate for feelings of hurt or inferiority – especially people who have been colonised or ruled by others and had to face their scorn, and who then compensate by trying to assert their superiority over others. This is, however, a very dangerous game (just look at the horrific lessons of the last century in this regard). So, Shree Burdak, I become a very persistent critic when I see this developing and try to nip it in the bud. This is not to say that I will always be right, I am very likely to make mistakes on one or another point, but the large number of distorted statements on these pages in the past, and the many criticisms from other readers confirm that something has gone really wrong here and needs to be addressed seriously and with goodwill.

Finally, you claim I write on Raphal’s discussion page: “as if to correct the Jat article is your motto. It is not in good taste. . . . I hope you will keep a balance and not delete Jat contents. Discussions are for the betterment of Wikipedia and not to damage its contents.”

I can only answer that everything I have done has been done openly and in good faith in an attempt to improve what has seemed to me (and obviously to quite a few others) a badly flawed article. I will quote here what I said on Rahpal’s page for everyone to judge for themselves if I am guilty of what you accuse me of: “I like the way you have written the qualifications to the claims that have been made on the Jat People page about ancient Indian rulers being Jats. Hopefully this will satisfy everyone and bring this particular argument to an end.”

And on that note I will close this over-long reply.

Sincerely, John Hill 15:36, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Reply to Mr John Hill

Thanks Mr John Hill for your long reply. I have two points to reply urgently. Firstly Geiger’s book,referred to as the Mahavamsa. p. 27 of printed book was requested by me to verify because I do not have a copy of it. Since you are working on the subject kindly ensure from print book and let us know all. I am in too interior area to have access to a library right now. We will wait for your confirmation.

Second point to clarify about Satyarthprakash is that Arya Samaj Jamnagar (Read Vedas and Satyarthprakash on-line) is online but is not complete. I have with me a hindi copy of Satyarthprakash by Arsh Sahitya prachar trust. It has got the story I mentioned in Ch-11 on pages 234-36. It is in Hindi and is produced below -

सत्यार्थ प्रकाश में जाटजी और पोपजी की कहानी

एक जाट था । उसके घर में एक गाय बहुत अच्छी और बीस सेर दूध देने वाली थी । दूध उसका बड़ा स्वादिष्‍ट होता था । कभी-कभी पोपजी के मुख में भी पड़ता था । उसका पुरोहित यही ध्यान कर रहा था कि जब जाट का बुड्ढ़ा बाप मरने लगेगा तब इसी गाय का संकल्प करा लूंगा । कुछ दिन में दैवयोग से उसके बाप का मरण समय आया । जीभ बन्द हो गई और खाट से भूमि पर ले लिया अर्थात् प्राण छोड़ने का समय आ पहुंचा । उस समय जाट के इष्‍ट-मित्र और सम्बन्धी भी उपस्थित हुए थे । तब पोपजी पुकारा कि "यजमान ! अब तू इसके हाथ से गोदान करा ।" जाट १० रुपया निकाल कर पिता के हाथ में रखकर बोला - "पढ़ो संकल्प !" पोपजी बोला - "वाह-वाह ! क्या बाप बारम्बार मरता है ? इस समय तो साक्षात् गाय को लाओ, जो दूध देती हो, बुड्ढी न हो, सब प्रकार उत्तम हो । ऐसी गौ का दान करना चाहिये ।"

जाटजी - हमारे पास तो एक ही गाय है, उसके बिना हमारे लड़के-बालों का निर्वाह न हो सकेगा इसलिए उसको न दूंगा । लो २० रुपये का संकल्प पढ़ देओ ! और इन रुपयों से दूसरी दुधार गाय ले लेना ।

पोपजी - वाहजी वाह ! तुम अपने बाप से भी गाय को अधिक समझते हो ? क्या अपने बाप को वैतरणी नदी में डुबाकर दु:ख देना चाहते हो । तुम अच्छे सुपुत्र हुए ? तब तो पोपजी की ओर सब कुटुम्बी हो गये, क्योंकि उन सबको पहिले ही पोपजी ने बहका रक्खा था और उस समय भी इशारा कर दिया । सबने मिलकर हठ से उसी गाय का दान उसी पोपजी को दिला दिया । उस समय जाट कुछ भी न बोला । उसका पिता मर गया और पोपजी बच्छा सहित गाय और दोहने की बटलोही को ले अपने घर में गाय-बच्छे को बाँध बटलोही धर पुन: जाट के घर आया और मृतक के साथ श्मशानभूमि में जाकर दाहकर्म्म कराया । वहाँ भी कुछ-कुछ पोपलीला चलाई । पश्‍चात् दशगात्र सपिण्डी कराने आदि में भी उसको मूंडा । महाब्राह्मणों ने भी लूटा और भुक्खड़ों ने भी बहुत सा माल पेट में भरा अर्थात् जब सब क्रिया हो चुकी तब जाट ने जिस किसी के घर से दूध मांग-मूंग निर्वाह किया । चौदहवें दिन प्रात:-काल पोपजी के घर पहुँचा । देखा तो पोपजी गाय दुह, बटलोई भर, पोपजी की उठने की तैयारी थी । इतने में ही जाटजी पहुँचे । उसको देख पोपजी बोला, आइये ! यजमान बैठिये !

जाटजी - तुम भी पुरोहित जी इधर आओ ।

पोपजी - अच्छा दूध धर आऊँ ।

जाटजी - नहीं-नहीं, दूध की बटलोई इधर लाओ ।

पोपजी बिचारे जा बैठे और बटलोई सामने धर दी ।

जाटजी - तुम बड़े झूठे हो ।

पोपजी - क्या झूठ किया ?

जाटजी - कहो, तुमने गाय किसलिए ली थी ?

पोपजी - तुम्हारे पिता के वैतरणी नदी तरने के लिए ।

जाटजी - अच्छा तो तुमने वहाँ वैतरणी के किनारे पर गाय क्यों न पहुँचाई ? हम तो तुम्हारे भरोसे पर रहे और तुम अपने घर बाँध बैठे । न जाने मेरे बाप ने वैतरणी में कितने गोते खाये होंगे ?

पोपजी - नहीं-नहीं, वहाँ इस दान के पुण्य के प्रभाव से दूसरी गाय बनकर उसको उतार दिया होगा ।

जाटजी - वैतरणी नदी यहाँ से कितनी दूर और किधर की ओर है ?

पोपजी - अनुमान से कोई तीस करोड़ कोश दूर है । क्योंकि उञ्चास कोटि योजन पृथ्वी है और दक्षिण नैऋत दिशा में वैतरणी नदी है ।

जाटजी - इतनी दूर से तुम्हारी चिट्ठी वा तार का समाचार गया हो, उसका उत्तर आया हो कि वहाँ पुण्य की गाय बन गई, अमुक के पिता को पार उतार दिया, दिखलाओ ?

पोपजी - हमारे पास 'गरुड़पुराण' के लेख के बिना डाक वा तारवर्की दूसरा कोई नहीं ।

जाटजी - इस गरुड़पुराण को हम सच्चा कैसे मानें ?

पोपजी - जैसे हम सब मानते हैं ।

जाटजी - यह पुस्तक तुम्हारे पुरषाओं ने तुम्हारी जीविका के लिए बनाया है । क्योंकि पिता को बिना अपने पुत्रों के कोई प्रिय नहीं । जब मेरा पिता मेरे पास चिट्ठी-पत्री वा तार भेजेगा तभी मैं वैतरणी नदी के किनारे गाय पहुंचा दूंगा और उनको पार उतार, पुन: गाय को घर में ले आ दूध को मैं और मेरे लड़के-बाले पिया करेंगे, लाओ ! दूध की भरी हुई बटलोही, गाय, बछड़ा लेकर जाटजी अपने घर को चला ।

पोपजी - तुम दान देकर लेते हो, तुम्हारा सत्यानाश हो जायेगा ।

जाटजी - चुप रहो ! नहीं तो तेरह दिन लों दूध के बिना जितना दु:ख हमने पाया है, सब कसर निकाल दूंगा । तब पोपजी चुप रहे और जाटजी गाय-बछड़ा ले अपने घर पहुँचे ।

जब ऐसे ही जाटजी के से पुरुष हों तो पोपलीला संसार में न चले । Regards, burdak 17:22, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Reply to Shree Burdak

Dear Shree Burdak: Thank you for your prompt reply and for providing the Hindi text. I took it to my son (who speaks Hindi and used to be able to read it somewhat) but he says he is not competent enough to translate it for me - so I will have to see if I can find anyone else to help me. (Perhaps you or one of the other readers of this list would be kind enough to translate it into English?)

I will ask the library here tomorrow (Monday) to see if they can source a copy of Geiger's book for me. If they can, I will certainly inform you on this list as to what I can find in it.

I do hope that, in spite of whatever differences of opinion we may have, we can work together to make this page a truly informative, interesting and accurate account of Jat people and their fascinating history.

Yours sincerely,

John Hill

Genetic Section

I have added dispute marker, because after reading it through, all it states is that Jatts are the same genetically as all other Punjabis. So why have this section here? Also where is this information from? What paper was this published in?

--Mein hoon don 14:17, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

That's what the references are for.The article mentions nothing about Punjabi Jats but makes a inference since Jats form a large part of punjab population ,that it shows jats are unlikely to have recent East Asian or African markers.However punjabis do differ ,see references .However the section does describe Jats in comparison to other world populations.

(Genomic diversities and affinities among four endogamous groups of Punjab (India) based on autosomal and mitochondrial DNA polymorphisms.Extract..

However, while the Scheduled Castes group is also genetically very distant from both the Khatris and the Jat Sikhs based on autosomal DNA data, this feature is not observed from the mtDNA data. Further, while with respect to the autosomal DNA data, the Brahmins, Khatris, and Jat Sikhs appear to form a cluster with respect to mtDNA data, the Khatris are clearly separated from the Brahmins and Jat Sikhs. These findings based on our autosomal DNA data are consistent with those from a previous study by Singh et al. (1974) using red cell enzyme polymorphisms, which were all autosomal loci, in which Brahmins, Khatris, and Jat Sikhs were also found to show no significant allele frequency differences. Our findings reveal that the Brahmins and Jat Sikhs may have been founded by a small group of female lineages, but because of waves of migration during the historical period (Thapar 1966), which were possibly predominantly male, various new autosomal genes were differentially introduced in the populations studied. The origin of the Scheduled Castes appears to be quite different, because they stand apart from the other three groups both in respect to mitochondrial and autosomal DNA data. Our interpretation stated above seems reasonable because the haplotypes that are common in the endogamous populations of Punjab are also common among many other populations of India (Roychoudhury et al. 2000, 2001). While this interpretation may imply that there should also be extensive sharing across endogamous groups and population clustering of HVS1 sequences, neither of these is observed in this present study. The most likely reason for these observations is the high mutation rate in the HVS1 region, which can potentially scramble long-term evolutionary history.

The frequency of haplogroup M increases with decrease in the social rank of the groups, although the differences in frequencies of this haplogroup among the populations is not statistically significant. The pooled frequency (40%) of this haplogroup is lower than frequencies observed in many caste populations of other parts India, except among the Brahmins of Uttar Pradesh (Roychoudhury et al. 2000). The frequency of this so-called 'Asian specific' haplogroup shows a rough clinal decrease from south to north India. The frequency of the 'European' haplogroup U does not show any statistically significant difference across the study populations, but the pooled frequency (22%) is higher than most that of other caste populations in other parts of India, except those of Uttar Pradesh (Roychoudhury et al. 2000). However, it is interesting that haplogroup H, which is found in Europe in about 40% to 50% frequency, is present among 10% of Khatris, but at a lower (4% to 6%), but not significantly so, frequency among the other populations. This haplogroup is absent among many tribal populations of India (Roychoudhury et al. 2001), but has earlier been reported among northern Indian caste populations of Punjab and Uttar Pradesh (Passarino et al. 1996). These results agree with the interpretation of Passarino et al. (1996) that there has been a considerable inflow of genes from Indo-European-speaking populations from central, and possibly also from west, Asia into northern India, including Punjab.

Jat in Norse mythology

Jat find mention in the Norse mythology. He has been mentioned as ancestor of Odin and Odin is father of the Norse tribe. Odin (Old Norse Óðinn) is considered the chief god in Norse mythology and Norse paganism, like the Anglo-Saxon Woden it is decended from Proto-Germanic *Wōđinaz or Wōđanaz Snorre list the generations before Odin and starts with Thor and Siv and followers Loride, Eindride, Vingtor, Vingener, Moda, Mage, Seskef, Bedvig, Athra, Annan, Iterman, Heremod, Skjaldun, Bjar, Jat, Gudolf, Finn, Fridlef and Odin/Oden. Snorre uses the same kind of ancestors' to Odin as we find in the Anglo-Saxon tradition.

Jat has been shown as the Prince of the GOTHS; Progenitor of ancient Germanic Kings (in tradition)

---

burdak 06:11, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

This has to be the height of ignorance. Now Mr Burdak, if any word that phronetically sounds similar to Jat, or spells similar or same is going to be attached to Jat history, then surely you can see how ridiculous this is becoming. I know some people ancestor worship, but this is going a little too far, no? By putting this up you are again implying a connection (your excuse below of trying to suggest the info as "legend" doesnt wash, it's obvious what you are doing. Are you seriously saying that all germans are now "legendarily" connected to Jats?! Is Adolf Hitler now sired by the Indo blooded Jats? This is going too far. You need help. Quickly.--Mein hoon don 22:57, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Reply to "Jat in Norse mythology"

Dear Shree Burdak: Are you really trying to suggest that there is a connection between the god "Jat" in Norse mythology and the Jat people in India, just because of a similarity in the way the names are written? A great deal of linguistic evidence must be assembled before making a serious proposal of some linguistic connection between names. How can you expect anyone to take you seriously when you keep coming up with such wild flights of fancy?

Far more likely would be some connection between Annan and the River Annan in Scotland. At least we know the Norsemen reached Scotland.

You give a reference by a Dr. Samar Abbas based, apparently, on a paper by B.S. Dehiya: "The Mauryas: Their Identity", Vishveshvaranand Indological Journal, Vol. 17 (1979), p.112-133, in which Abbas makes the claim that B.S. Dehiya "proved" several major points, including the following:

• The Mauryas, Muras, or rather Mors, were Jats, and hence Scythian or East Iranic in origin.
• Consequently, Ashoka, Chandragupta and all other emperors of the Mauryan Dynasty were Scythian Jats (p.116).
• The Atharva Veda was the creation of Iranic sun-priests or Magas, and was not part of the original Vedic tradition (p.128).
• The primordial Jat religion was that of the original Iranic race, namely monotheist Sun-worship, which they and their Maga priests carried wherever they migrated (p.119, 128).
• Chanakya or Kautilya, brain behind the Mauryan Empire and author of the famous Artha-Sastra, was an Iranic sun-priest or Maga (p.128).
• The Mauryas or Mors were close kin of the Amorites of Babylonia and Egypt. (p.131)
• The Jat immigrants are close kin of the ancient Gutians of Sumeria (p.131), and the Goths or Gots (p.125), known in Latin as Getae."

Not bad going - "proving" all of this in just 21 pages!

I have just read Abbas' account of these "proofs" and they mostly seem very far-fetched speculations to me, based on little more than conveniently chosen vague similarities of names over huge periods of time and space. But, perhaps, other readers would like to have a look at them too and see what they think? I would be interested to hear their views.

Next you will be trying to tell us that the Mauryas derived from the North African Moors or vice versa! After all, Dr. Abbas does say: "Grammatically, Maurya is a derivative from Mūra or Moor by adding the śyan suffix (Mahābhāṣya, 8.2.1). Therefore, the original word remains Mor/Moor and not Mayūra etc. The last word Mayūr or Mayūraka is a Sanskrit translation of the original clan-name Mor, which was unfortunately found to be the same as the Hindi word Mor meaning peacock."

He adds: "Thus we can conclude that the correct name of the clan of Chandragupta was Mor. It is the same word which is the surname of some people in England and written as `Moor'. It is, again, this word, which is the European `Moor'."

And again: "Grammatically, Maurya is a derivative from Mūra or Moor by adding the śyan suffix (Mahābhāṣya, 8.2.1). Therefore, the original word remains Mor/Moor and not Mayūra etc. The last word Mayūr or Mayūraka is a Sanskrit translation of the original clan-name Mor, which was unfortunately found to be the same as the Hindi word Mor meaning peacock."

The Moors are a member of a nomadic people of Arab and Berber descent who originally occupied lands in various parts of North Africa, and whose members continue to live there. If you check carefully you will discover that these are the people generally referred to as Moors in Europe. Shree Burdak, do you believe there is also a connection between these Moors and the Mauryas - if not, why not? It would seem as likely as any of the other speculations in the article by Dr. Abbas.

To my mind all of these speculations seem to be based on the occurrence of somewhat similar-sounding names - and little else. John Hill 10:36, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Reply to John Hill

Dear John Hill, I have not given any conclusions about the connection between Jats in India and Jat in Norse mythology. I have clearly mentioned it as mythology and not the History. That is why I gave the heading mythology. Even Scandinavian people or people of the rest of world are not sure if Odin was a real person or fictional person but there are many writers like Thor Heyerdahl who thinks that Odin was a real person. I quote from above article -

"Thor is not the only to believe on the earliest Scandinavian myth writer Snorre Sturlasson at Island in 13th century AD. (Saxo Grammaticus lived a little earlier) Snorre told that Odin came from Turkland and wandered to Saxland were he founded some kingdoms and made his sons kings there. Soon he wandered again and now to Reidgotaland = Jutland and made more children and kingdoms. At last he wandered to Svitjod = Sweden and settled there and got more time for making children and kingdoms. In illiterate times folk wisdom was stored in songs and tales. There is no time line so it could have happened thousands of years ago. Mythic heroes could have some forefather"

So I put this topic for discussion. There are authors who write that these Goths were Jats as mentioned by Bhim Singh Dahiya. I have got one book by Mangal Sen Jindal, he is not a Jat, who writes that Goths were Jats and Jutland was their homeland. If there is a common name in India and Scandinavia there must be some connection. If the name is there it must have some meaning. In Lithuanian language word Jāt has got meaning -"The cavalier". This indicates Jat as real persons in those countries.

Dear John Hill why you are so allergic to new probabilities ?

Do you think Jats in India were here since ancient times?

Were there no migrations of these populations?

Could the people from Iran not go to Scandinavia or India?

This article on Jat people is not only confined to history but if it has some mythology should it not me discussed? burdak 17:17, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Reply to Shree Burdak

Dear Shree Burdak: Thank you for answering my question as to whether you were trying "to suggest that there is a connection between the god "Jat" in Norse mythology and the Jat people in India." I am relieved to find that you are not, but only raising a possibility.

I did notice with approval that you had headed your entry "Jat in Norse Mythology." However, on reading your note I assumed you were trying to imply there was a connection between Indian Jats and the Norse god Jat, because you placed it on the Jat people Talk Page and you made reference to articles which claim to establish close connections between Indian Jats and an extremely wide range of other ancient peoples.

The article by Dr. Abbas (who is discussing or reviewing an article by Dr. Dehiya) that you refer to claims very close connections between modern Jats and the Indian Manda and Maurya dynasties (and, therefore, with Ashoka, the rulers of Khotan, etc., etc), the Magas of Iran, "Dahis or Massa Gatae on the Caspain Sea," "Usbeck Tatars," the Amorites of Babylonia and Egypt, the Gutians of Sumeria, the people of Balkh and Merv, Scythians, the Yuezhi, the Yakshas, the Goths of Europe, the founders of the city of Ecbatana in Iran, the rulers of Nineveh - the 'Ari Zantoi' - a "royal governing class of Persia", Ugrians, Uighurs, the Mura and Nairi of Assyrian records, and others. Moreover, he claims that Jats provided the origin of European names such as More/Moor, Hans, Chavannes, Gauls, Rose, Irish 'Mug' and Gothic 'Magus' and even that that the ancestors of Cyrus and Darius were vassals of Jats. You must admit that Drs. Abbas and Dehiya are "drawing a very long bow" - especially when they are claiming "proof" of many of these assumed connections; that they are facts which we should accept as true.

Now, to attempt to answer some of your questions to me.

You ask: why I am "so allergic to new probabilities?" It is exactly the sort of meanings contained in this word "probabilities" that I object to when it used to describe what I see as, at best, possibilities incapable of proof and, at worst, wild speculations. I don't think these matters have much place in the Wikipedia unless they are clearly marked as such.

Yes, I think it is possible that some of the ancestors of modern Jats have been in India for a very long time. Some of these ancestors quite likely go right back to the original inhabitants of India, many tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of years ago. And, during this long time there would have been much mixing between groups and, of course, migrations (undoubtedly leading to more mixing).

It is when you imply that Jats are not descended from a range of peoples, but are an Aryan "race" that I take exception. I believe that Jats, like all of us, are of mixed descent - and that there is no such thing as a "pure race." So, to say that Jats are partly descended from Aryan peoples is undoubtedly correct. One might even be able to claim that modern Jats are mainly of Aryan stock (whatever that might mean), although I don't know how this could be proven. But, to say that Jats ARE Aryans is a nonsense.

You have previously defended the use of a note on "Physical Features" [of Jats] which contained terms like "pure Aryan features," "pure Aryan characteristics," "pure Aryan", "unmistakably Aryan", and "non-Aryan features" in this Wikipedia article (see note on "Neutral point of View" above). It is this sort of unprovable and divisive racist speculation and propaganda that really worries me and, I believe, should have no place in these pages.

Finally: Of course people from Iran have gone to Scandinavia and India (and many other countries) - they still do. And, over time, they have mixed with other groups, as they still do - not only in other countries - but also in Iran, where there are undoubtedly Arabic, Indian, African, Turkic, Jewish and Scythic admixtures, amongst others (as in India).

I hope this clarifies the points you have raised. Sincerely, John Hill 23:50, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Dear John Hill, Thanks for your note. The subject of migration of Jats needs to be expanded. I hope you will add from the literature you have. Not right now but in future to get better picture of their distribution. burdak 03:08, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Im sorry but this is going way too far, after reading the latest additions above about the Germanic links and the long theories of these so called scholars, I feel awful to say, that history is being abused. A lot on this page especially. How can people be seriously urged to contribute when they read that Thor's brother Jat "could be" the father of all Jats, that Hitler is a Jat, Michael Schumacher by that logic is a Jat. Please someone take control of this matter and stop this becoming a serious joke. Mr Burdak, you throw accusations whenever someone challenges your "legends" and "proofs" and yet ignore your racial and supremacist propoganda of jackanory stories. Get real. Soon. Please. and then please contribute. There is so much available about Jats as a people, why hide so much and make wild claims of ancient "legend connections"? Why are you doing this? Insecurity is not an excuse for this behaviour surely. This isn't meant to be rude, but abrupt. Surely you can see where you are now going a tad too far in these crazy connections? I look forward to your useful contributions of fact. Until then, keep legend in the story books, and out of history books please.--Mein hoon don 23:05, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Mention in Hindu Mythology

I don't understand one important thing. The following is written in the article:

"There is another theory also about jats. It is believed by some historians that they entered with muslims in india. It is also said that Jats are children of muslims married to Indian women. In india, races are mixed, and in todays context, it is irrelevant. many times people want to glorify them, by inventing false, wrong, and manipulated history. Their is no mension of Jats, as such, in Hindu mathology."

YET....as we read on in the article....Jats are mentioned in both above this passage (as discussed by the Hindu God Shiva)...and then are mentioned in the Mahabharta. No offence, but the Mahabharta is one of the defining texts of Hindu mythology...if not THE text...and Shiva mentioning them is pretty big a thing. So why is it that this part of the article says they aren't mentioned...and the rest says they are? Seems like someone's last ditch addition. Especially since they didn't spell the word "Mythology" right (as though they were in a rush). Either this should be erased, or atleast the last sentence...or...the rest of the article should be erased. Persianlor 03:51, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

"It is believed by some historians that they entered with muslims in india" This comment has no basis at all. Muslim religion came into existence in 7th century, where as Jats existed much much earlier periods which is clear from its mention in Indian epics. Who is the historian who says so?

"Their is no mension of Jats, as such, in Hindu mathology." This statement was part of vandalism by an unknown user and has been removed. The references from Indian epics are most authentic, with online links.

--burdak 16:47, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Jaat means caste in Hindi, and caste mean jati i.e jaat. Jat may be a special caste or jaat....ros..

It is mentioned that Jats have migrated to other countries due to MARTIAL reasons. What is a martial reason. Is being martial race really hold a prestigious place in civil societies. Probably no, becouse martialism which very often ultimately lead to hooliganism in many cases is quite antisocial and anti wisdom. Wise thoughts often keep away from those under the influence of their muscle mass. Wolves and Lions have become endangered species in the changing environment but how long humans in lion's garb enjoy freedom is not sure. Circumtances made human wear animal's masks and those masks..oof seems to be looking odd now. ... oddity on innocent faces

Reverting poorly substantiated claims once again

I have just removed another attempt by Shri Burdak to refer to the appalling and insulting reference to Krishna and the Jats by Alberuni from this article. Shree Burdak, this has all been discussed at length previously (please have another look at all the notes under "Deletion of section referring to a claim by Alberuni that Krishna was a Jat" above on this same page).

Do we have to keep repeating this pointless argument? Can't you see that such an unsubstantiated, insulting report (insulting, by the way, to both Krishna and to Jats) by a Muslim author about events occuring thousands of years before his time has no place in a serious encyclopedia? Are you, perhaps, secretly a fanatic Muslim trying to ridicule Krishna and Jats?

I have also toned down some of the reported claims of UN Sharma to indicate that they are nothing more than claims - or, at the very least, not well-established historical facts.

If other readers are interested in what has been happening on this page in terms of what I see as racial supremecist propaganda, please have a look at the edits I have made and decide for yourselves if I am being unreasonable. Thank you, Sincerely, John Hill 06:21, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Dear John Hill, I do not understand how connection of Jats with Krishna is insulting to Jats or Krishna. When Bharatpur rulers themselves call as descendants of Krishna and this claim is substantiated with their ancestry records. Have you gone through UN Sharma's book ? What are the facts to substantiate your deletions. I again write that many facts will be derived from ancestry records that will form the part of History. If you are so sincere about history based on historical facts then why do not read the Rajput articles, where people called Agnivanshi Rajputs are produced from fire with the help of mantras? Have you gone there and edited any of those articles to improve the authenticity. Your tone about the Muslim author seems to be insulting to Al-biruni. Here your role in deletion seems unreasonable. burdak 17:06, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Deletion of fallacious parts of the texts by critics like John Hill is appreciable when done in right spirit. It is however observed that many of the outsider scholars would need some authentic source composed in past to justify anything. Such scholars are however ignorant about the fact that ancient texts are unreliable becouse of monopolisation and distortion of the original ancient texts by subsequent selfish hands. The historical facts seems to have been not only tampered with but also destroyed with each change of ruling dynasties. The result is that we may be left with hardly a very small part of the ancient texts in original. The only solution to know the actual happening in past is by impartial reinterpretation based upon realistic data supported by evidences drawn out of relating circumtances. It is also noted that Shudras like Jats (as per uppers) and others and Dalits have always been shown to be of low and insignificant profiles due to obvious reasons. Those days nobody ever knew what infact written in diffrent texts. Even the greatest of great personalities seems to have been reduced to the lowest cadres of society due to rivalry. It is therefore necessary that deletions or insertions need to be made only after giving due regard to the point of contentions made by the author. roserwilson

Dear Shree Burdak

First of all, please let me unreservedly apologise to you for the unkind comment I made referring to you in my last note which was written in haste and in frustration at having to revisit items I thought we had already fully dealt with.

As to my other comments - I stand fully behind them and leave it to other readers to make up their minds as to whether they believe they are valid or not.

I agree that some facts may be "derived from ancestry records that will form the part of History" - but, they would have to be carefully substantiated from other sources before they could be accepted as "history." Ancestry records are notoriously unreliable, as they tend to glorify the family histories they purport to record, and hide uncomfortable facts.

I had not previously read the article on the Agnivanshi Rajputs simply because I have not been aware of unsubstantiated or poorly substantiated claims about famous historical figures being made - as has been commonly done on this page. I have just now looked up Agnivanshi in the Wikipedia and found the story I think you are referring to. It is headed "The Agnikunda legend" - thereby clearly indicating that this story is not being presented as historical fact. I also note the page has boxes questioning its factual accuracy and saying that it doesn't adequately cite its references or sources. There is, therefore, no call for me to say anything.

Finally, I leave it up to the readers to decide whether Al-biruni was biased or not. However, I think it should be obvious to most people that Al-biruni, a Persian traveller who visited India about a thousand years ago, was most unlikely to have been an expert on events that were claimed to have taken place in India thousands of years before his visit and involving a god who would have been considered an anathema to someone of his religion. Why, then, do you think he might be worth quoting in a general article on Jat people? Sincerely, John Hill 22:36, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Evidences to substantiate Krishna - Jat connection

The evidences from history and literature in support of the fact that Jats have descended from Krishna are as under:-

• When Jarasandha invaded Mathura with a vast army; and another asura, Kalayavan by name, surrounded Mathura with army of thirty million monstrous fiends, Then Krishna departed to Dwaraka along with Andhakas, Vrishnis, Bhojas etc clans. Mahabharata mentions in chapter 25, shloka 26 that Lord Krishna founded a federation ‘Gana-sangha’ of Andhak and Vrishni clans. This federation was known as ‘Gyati-sangh’. Each member of this ‘Gyati-sangh’ was known as ‘Gyat’. Krishna was chief of this sangha. Over a period of time ‘Gyati’ became ‘Gyat’ and it changed to Jat. The use of sutra - Jat jhat sanghate in sanskrit by Panini's grammar seems to have started from here. Thus Krishna is the real ancestor and founder of Jats.

• According to Pandit Lekhraj descendants of Yadu are known as Yadavas after their eponymous ancestor Yadu. Yadu changes to Yadav which changes to Jadav and Jat as per Sanskrit grammar.

• Nazmul Gani in Karnam-e-Rajput writes that Jat community is right in having proud of being descended from Krishna.

• The Arabian traveler Al-Biruni has mentioned that Jats have descended from Lord Krishna. The Muslim contries have a notion that Jats are the ancestors of Yadavas.

• James Todd writes that Jats are descendants of Krishna.

• Dr S. Jabir Raza of Aligarh Muslim University writes that as a mythological origin, jats are said to be the descendants of the gods Shiva and Krishna.

• Mr Neshfield, a renowned scholar of Indology, writes that The word Jat is nothing more than the modern Hindi pronunciation of Yadu or Jadu, the tribe in which Krishna was born.

• The Sinsinwar Jat rulers of Bharatpur have been recorded as Yadavavanshi, the descendants of Krishna by Prakash Chandra Chandawat.

• UN Sharma has mentioned the chronology of Krishna in which starting from Sindhupal in 64th generation of Krishna to Bharatpur ruler Maharaja Brijendra Singh (1929-1948) all the rulers are mentioned as Yaduvanshi Jats.

• Thakur Deshraj has mentioned in "Jat Itihas" that Bharatpur rulers were Chandravanshi, which was a branch Vrishni clan Yaduvanshis in which was born Krishna.

• Almost all early Jat rulers have been mentioned by contemporary poets as Yaduvanshis. The poet Sūdan , poet Somnath , poet Udayram have written about the origin of Sinsinwar Jat rulers of Bharatpur in Brij language as under -

तीन जाति जादव की, अंधक, विस्‍नी, भोज ।

तीन भांति तेई भये, तै फिर तिनही षोज ।।

पूर्व जनम ते जादव विस्‍नी ।

तेई प्रकटे आइ सिनसिनी ।।

Translation:-The Yadavas had three clans of Andhaka, Vrishni and Bhoja, out of which was originated the Sinsinwar clan.

• Raja Laxman Singh writes in Memoirs of Bulandshahar that it is a verified fact that the Jats of Bharatpur are descendants of Yadavas in which was born Krishna. The states of Bharatpur, Karauli, Jaisalmer, Mysore and Sirmaur link their ancestry with Krishna.

• Prakash Chandra Chandawat has conducted Ph.D. research work on Maharaja Suraj Mal of Bharatpur in which he writes that The Bharatpur Jat rulers are from the Yadavavansha descended from Krishna. The rulers of Bharatpur and Karauli have a common ancestor Sindpal, in the twelfth generation of Sindpal were Tahanpal, whose youngest son is the ancestor of Karauli rulers and third son Madanpal is ancestor of Bharatpur rulers. After the puranic records of Yaduvanshi Krishna, the historical records are found from the time of Dharmpal, who wasin 77th generation of Krishna. The ancestor of Bharatpur rulers was Madanpal and his descendant was Balchand in the 19th generation.

• Jat historian Bhaleram Beniwal has written after recent researches with evidences in his book "Jāton kā Ādikālīn Itihās" that Krishna was by all evidences noting other than Jat. He has mentioned the above referred evidences in addition to the following authors which mention Krishna as Jats. These are Yogendrapal Shastri, Motilal Gupta Walter Hamilton . burdak 08:06, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

---

The above is a highly suspect account. How can you deny what has been written above Burdak? Or are you not reading it on purpose? You have been proven to sanitise things for the article to appear one way when it is in effect completely different. Alberuni blatantly said Krishna was born to lowly Shudra Jats and is this blatantly implies that Jats are Shudra and lowly in the same line. How can you accept this? Are you out of your mind? Alberuni's comment should be deleted completely. I dont care who the Bharatpur rulers are, this reference is prejudicial and shouldn't be here. For record, you know this and are being coy being re introducing it a few weeks later. --Mein hoon don 16:18, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

JATS IN MATHURA NOW A DAYS

• Hath kangan ko arsi kya.If we see mathura,vrindavan,gokul,barsana,goverdhan etc.these places are full of jat population,ahir is not found there.jats believe in shrikrisna principals.all the jat culture is same ancient yadav culture.

John hill entries

Is is quite clear that John hill is clearly attempting to undermine the Jat page and related articles.He thinks his opinions is the only valid one.He pretends to be act as a person of reason but his sole purpose to rewrite everything to his world view.Burdak, although I consider some of your points nonsense ,they are no more valid than John Hills.John Hills evidence is no greater value than yours.However wikipedia often gets hijacked by people who clearly have a racist agenda.Like racist before them they try to remove any view of history apart from their own ,hence wikipedia clearly shows a western view point due to the large numbers of western contributors.People such as John Hill or people who have a chip on their shoulder against Jats like certain Indian groups, instead writing there own articles spend their time vandalising others.Unfortunatley this is the nature of wiki.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.85.12.211 (talk) 15:38, 31 March 2007 (UTC).

No he isn't. I cant believe when a person comes here to try and stop us looking like fools, you guys are just undermining him this way. Talk sense. It's an encyclopedia not a bloody memorial page. John's evidences helped clear up some fantasies, so fair play to him. Whereas Burdak keeps turning us into Thor's sons, and wants us to be Krishna's Shudra lowly sons according to Alberuni's reference that he keeps bringing in.

Western editors or not, he is welcome here as is any western or eastern or northern or southern editor who can add some valuable info for all Jats and the world to read and see. Stop being this prejudiced supremacist propoganda. If I wanted to be more direct, I challenge any "wannabe Aryan" to go up to a BNP, KKK group and ask them to be accepted as an Aryan, Scythian or whatever non Indian background you wanna claim. You wont be, guaranteed! Why aren't people just proud to be Indian instead of "everything but Indian"? Is it wrong or lowly to be just an Indian? The article a month ago was just a wierd racial "we live in India, but are really white people" rhetoric. Clean up your act guys. Mr Hill, be my guest and please help keep this an encyclopedia.--Mein hoon don 16:24, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

A modest proposal to resolve this dispute

Dear All: I think it is time to take a deep breath and try to discover some way out of this impasse. I was feeling really sad yesterday that I had allowed myself to become so emotionally involved in this dispute that I stooped to making some unkind personal remarks. It is clear to me now that Shree Burdak and others (mostly anonymous) hold very strong religious and racial beliefs about the origins of the Jats and no amount of argument or evidence to the contrary is likely to change their minds.

Similarly, it is unreasonable to think one could convince a committed Muslim, Jew or Christian that their holy books do not contain the true word of God which should be taken absolutely literally - or that, even if we can agree that these books do contain some real historical data, many of the stories they contain are fictional, legendary or, at best, parables.

However, in all these cases, it must be admitted that most people who do not belong to these groups (and many that do) cannot accept that the world was created only about 6,000 years ago (apparently believed by more than half of American citizens), that the Bible or the Koran contain the only true account of God's thinking, or that Krishna died in 3102 BCE and had 16,000 wives, or that anyone ever invaded "Mathura with army of thirty million monstrous fiends."

A general article in the Wikipedia such as this one on Jat people should, I suggest, focus on verifiable "facts" and make only brief reference to such claims - perhaps with a summary of one or two major traditions - under a heading such as: "Jat traditions and legends" with reference to a separate page with this same heading where these beliefs could be discussed in detail.

This would, I believe, help resolve these problems. We would then have a good, reliable page describing Jats, their customs and history, plus a separate article dedicated to describing legends and traditions associated with (and believed by some) Jat people. Please, would everyone involved in these discussions think seriously about this suggestion and maybe, if they agree, start such a page and move some of the more contentious material from this page to it? Many thanks for your consideration. Sincerely, John Hill 23:42, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Concentrate on issue not on persons

Dear all, there should be no comment on Burdak or John Hill. The comment should be on the content which I have provided for discussion. There is no question of changing the mental make up of any body. Somebody is religious or athiest is his personal matter and not to be discussed on this page. I have quoted the reputed authors who are historians. As far mythology is concerned there is only one book Mahabharata referred. You can not get rid of Mahabharata in India. It is an epic not a history book but some of its contents have been researched and found historically true. So if there is no counter evidence it can not be simply rejected since John Hill or somebody else does not agree on it.

About 3102 BC it has been mentioned in the History book "R.C.Majumdar, H.C.Raychaudhury, Kalikaranjan Datta: An Advanced History of India, fourth edition, 1978, ISBN 0333 90298 X" on page 1067 in the chronology of Indian History. Mahabharata does not mention this date. Wikipedia itself mentions in article on [Krishna]] -

"Krishna's birth date as July 19th 3228 B.C.E. Professor N.S. Rajaram in his article 'Search for the Historical Krishna' states: We have therefore overwhelming evidence showing that Krishna was a historical figure who must have lived within a century on either side of that date, i.e., in the 3200-3000 BC period".

So friends concentrate on the issues and not on persons. I agree with last para of John Hill regarding dividing the Jat people article into sections. I appreciate your concerns about Wikipedia.

I will request you to go to other articles on Wikipedia about Indian topics. Such as Rajput which tells about origin of Rajputs -

"According to Pouranic legends Khstriyas were born from Hands of Vishnu while Brahmins from the mouth and Vaishyas from stomoche and Shudras from feet".

The same article writes about origin of Agnivanshi Rajputs-

"The Agnivanshi lineage, claims descent from four persons who were born from fire or by the influence of Ved Mantras. According to Pouranic legend as found in Bhavishya Purana, an yagna was held at Mount Abu, at the time of emperor Ashoka's sons. From the influence of Mantras of the four Vedas four Kshatriyas were born".

Indian epics never mention Krishna as Shudra. It was later priestly class not in harmony with the philosophy of Krishna who may allege it. Caste concept was not at that time. Varna is different thing, which were as per category of work. Since Krishna was a ruler how can he be classed as Shudra?

How are you feeling insulted on Al-biruni? He was the first muslim scholar to study India and Brahminical traditions. May be his comments do not suit certain class in India. The context of Al-biruni may be different but we simply take him as regards to mentioning Krishna in relation to Jats. Caste itself is a mythical origin and can not be discussed here. How does it matter if somebody calls Shudra or Brahman. Do you believe one can be born from mouth to become Brahman or born from feet to become Shudra?

Thanks and Regards, burdak 07:07, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Wrong wrong wrong. If you are citing a legend (despite it's religious value) then it must be indicated as such, not as factual evidence. But your behaviour indicates something interesting. You are being cornered about the proofs you allege here, and when they are found as wrong or sanitised, you start harping on about other pages and allegations? Those will be dealt with in due course, but let's deal with what we have here shall we? The Indian epics regard Krishna as a king, yes. But Jat? no. Alberuni mentions Krishna as a Shudra Jat. You like to use the Jat part but sanitise the Shudra part? Whats wrong with the full reference? Jats are Jats. Are you going to confirm to the whole wide world that Shudras and Vaishyas can't be Jats? Please be real and get out of cuckoo land Burdak.--Mein hoon don 11:56, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh, Shree Burdak!

What are you trying to do? When will you stop trying to push your one-sided view of events to the exclusion of others? You continue to trap yourself by changing or omitting things to suit your own views.

Here is but one example: In your recent reference to Krishna's birthdate you quote from the article on Krishna in the Wikipedia, but conveniently omit the key part of it, which is contained in the first sentence: "Traditional belief based on scriptural details and astrological calculations gives Krishna's birth date as July 19th 3228 B.C.E.[4][5]"

Please note that the article carefully states that the date (which is quite different than the one you propose) is a "Traditionl belief based on scriptural details and astrological calculations." It does not claim that it is a fact or that it is true - it indicates by this qualification that, while it may be believed by some people, it may well not be true or accurate. So, readers who do not believe in the literal truth of early Indian scriptures, or who do not trust the findings of astrologers, are pre-warned that this is not meant to be accepted as established fact.

It is exactly this sort of qualification I am hoping you will learn to use to qualify your speculations.

The date for Krishna's birth given by R.C. Majumdar, H.C. Raychaudhury, and Kalikaranjan Datta is, according to you, 3102 BCE, while the Wikipedia article gives 3228 BCE as the "traditional date". I am sure I could find astrologers who would give a different date altogether. So, which should we believe, and why?

Is it not a tenable position to say that the Mahabharata is an inspiring ancient legend which may or may not contain kernels of historical truth, but is unlikely to be able to provide us with trustworthy dates?

You also (conveniently) forget to mention that the references to the Agnivanshi lineage in the Rajput article are carefully listed under the sub-heading "=== Legendary ===", which gives the reader fair warning of the type of information this is supposed to represent. It does not list them as "history," or "fact" or that it was mentioned by some "historian". It clearly labels the material as legendary.

This sort of qualification is all I have been asking for in this article. I believe it would improve it tremendously and make it credible and useful to a much wider audience if this was done; instead of presenting an article which will be seen by many, if not most, readers as naive, inaccurate and biased.

Finally, are you seriously proposing that I would have to disprove that Mathura was attacked by "thirty million monstrous fiends" before I can question the historical accuracy of the Mahabharata? Should I just accept this because you say that "some of its contents have been researched and found historically true"?

I might add that there has been quite a lot of work done which "proves" that some of the contents of the Bible and Koran are historically true. Does that mean that you will then accept everything they say? Come on now, please answer my questions for once - and stop trying to ignore the points I am making, as you commonly do.

I could go on and on - but I really don't have the time or heart to keep on exposing the inconsistencies and absurdities of your positions.

I am very pleased to see that you at least "agree with last para of John Hill regarding dividing the Jat people article into sections." The sooner you get your interpretations of Jat "history" onto a page headed something like: "Jat traditions and legends", and off this page which is meant to be a sober encyclopedia article on the Jat people, the better it will be for everyone. Sincerely, John Hill 08:35, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Jats in Sind

I notice Shree Burdak, while not responding to my note above, has just added a large amount of material on the Jats in Sind. Much of this may well be factual, and I certainly don't have the time to check it all for accuracy - but one claim caught my eye and I thought I should bring it up.

The account of Xuanzang (Hieun Tsang) does not specify who the people he saw in Sind were, and I believe it is impossible to state whether or not they were Jats, as Shree Burdak implies when he states: "In the seventh century the Chinese traveler Hieun Tsang witnessed their settlement. . . ."

There is nothing I can see in the account that could give any clear indication of who the tribe or community of almost a thousand families was, except to describe their occupations as slaughter and raising cattle. This description could refer to any of many different tribal, or other groups - perhaps they were Jats, perhaps they were not. And, if they were Jats, who were the other inhabitants of Sind at the time?

In fact, Xuanzang says nothing about the "ethnicity" of peoples in Sind, although he does mention the caste of the king. I thought I would quote a couple of short sections from the latest English translation (The Great Tang Dynasty Record of the Western Regions translated by Li Rongxi, Numata Centre for Buddhist Translation and Research. 1966), although the earlier translations by Beal and Watter of these passages are both adequate:

"The country of Sindhu is more than seven thousand li in circuit, and its capital city, named Vichavapura, is over thirty li in circuit. . . . The king, a Sudra by caste, is a man of simplicity and honesty, and he respects the Buddha-dharma. . . . In a district of slopes and marshes extending to more than a thousand li beside the Sindhu River there live several hundred, nearly a thousand, families of ferocious people who made slaughter their occupation and sustain themselves by rearing cattle, without any other means of living." Ibid, pp. 345-346.

There is more - but I don't think it is any more enlightening about the origins of these people whom Shree Burdak implies were Jats. If anyone knows of any more positive evidence about the origins of these people, please present it here. Otherwise, we should probably remove this reference to Xuanzang's account from the page. Sincerely, John Hill 11:52, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

If thats the case, then there is major fraud going on in this article. Wikipedia must be informed of this. Whats more worrying, is that the sanitisation of remote and highly improbably untenable links is being used here as confirmed historic references. Thats plain fraud.--Mein hoon don 11:51, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi Mr John, If you go below what you quoted you will find that The Chinese traveler Hieun Tsang refers that 'there are several hundreds of thousands families settled in Sind. Obviously these unnamed people were the Jats. It is clear that Hieun Tsang does not mention ethnicity but it is made clear by Dr S.Jabir Raza as referred above. It is not that I implied it. Probably you jump very fast to conclusions. Hope there is no dispute. It is unfortunate that before I put a note some body has deleted the Jats in Sindh Section which I had to restore first. It makes clear that the man who has deleted is biased and doing vandalism.burdak 16:47, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi Mr. Burdak! There is no mention of the numbers of people in Sindh below what I quoted. I should mention that Beal's pioneering 1888 translation that you are referring to reads "hundreds of thousands of families (a very great many) . . . " but it seems to be an error - do check Watters who refers to "some myriads of families", and the latest translation (1996) by Li Rongxi (p. 346) who puts their number at only "several hundred, nearly a thousand, families . . ." If I can get hold of the Chinese text I will check it myself but, unfortunately, I don't have it here. For the rest of my answer please go to the Talk page of Indo-Aryan origin of Jats. John Hill 04:42, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

A plea for someone qualified, and unbiased to check the accuracy of claims on this page

Dear readers. I apologise for taking up so much space recently - but every time I come back to the Jat page I discover more inaccuracies or unsubstantiated claims. I really don't have the time to keep up this editing - but someone should do it, as the page is riddled with errors.

Just this morning I thought I would check some of the references to James Tod's great pioneering work on the history of Rajasthan of 1829, the Annals and Antiquities of Rajasthan. After only brief checking it became obvious that he has been seriously misinterpreted in at least one place, adding to the long list of previous inaccuracies and distortions I have pointed out in these pages.

To detail this latest discovery - I will quote from the article, and then quote from Tod himself, to show how he has been misinterpreted. The article, under the sub-heading "Indo-Scythian origin" starts off with:

"Tod classed the Jats as one of the great Rajput tribes; but here Cunningham differed from him holding the Rajputs to belong to the original Aryan stock, and the Jats to a late wave of immigrants from the north west, probably of Scythian race."

Tod never "classed the Jats as one of the great Rajput tribes" - quite the opposite, in fact. What Tod actually says (Ibid, p. 127 and note 1) is:

"In all the ancient catalogues of the thirty-six royal races of India the Jat has a place, though by none is he ever styled 'Rajput'; nor am I aware of any instance of a Rajput's intermarriage with a Jat.¹"

"¹[Though apparently there is no legal connubium between Jāts and Rāputs, the two tribes are closely connected, and it has been suggested that both had their origin in invaders from Central Asia, the leaders becoming Rājputs, the lower orders Jāt peasants. The author, at the close of Vol. II., gives an inscription recording the marriage of a Jāt with a Yādava princess.]"

It has been my sad experience to discover many examples of such misleading references on this page which is why I am requesting that all claims and references be thoroughly checked, and revised as necessary, by some competent but unbiased reader.

It would also be of great help, I believe, if my earlier suggestion is followed so that traditional and legendary accounts are removed to a separate page where they will not be confused with well-established historical data.

These are, of course, just suggestions, and I would appreciate hearing back from interested readers. It is obvious, though, that some serious work and extensive editing needs to be done to bring this page up to Wikipedia standards. Sincerely, John Hill 23:46, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

That is appalling. This level of fraud. The sad thing is many people who see this are going to judge our communities as lying fraudulent people. Because of a handful of crazy people who makes us sons of Thor, a rajput race etc etc etc. How much more info is fraudulent on this page. Burdak and his Co. are taking these sanitised lies to a whole different level....--Mein hoon don 12:00, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi Mr Mein hoon don, a fraud name itself, do you have some thing positive in your mind or all the time thinking about Burdak without going in to details what has been written and who has written ? If you have anything to contribute do it in your own name. No personal comment. Mind it !!! burdak 15:59, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Burdak, the Wolves are at your door,in the guise of Sikh Nationalists and Western Imperialists,keep your guard up and strike.

Wolves at the door? guard up and strike? What do you think this is? A bollywood theatre?

Get real. Burdak can't answer the assertions that John Hill puts forward repeatedly, nor justify his sanitations, which even you disagree with. Regarding the fraud name, it's a username, get used to it. I am not searching phronetic connections through names like you are. Infact you have based our entire history on phronetics! Let's see, ahem, Jat sounds similar to Ghyat = Jat! Krishna, sounds like Kaswan=Jat!, Jat of norse origin the germanic ancestor king of Goths = Jat of Punjab! what ridiculousness! This is being personal to you per se, it's your "theories". Please for the sake of truth get real and put something more serious here instead of attacking and sanitising. --Mein hoon don 12:43, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Stop vandalism

I have observed that large content of this article was deleted in last days. This is vandalism and should be stopped immediately. I had to restore sections like, Image of A Jat Sepoy, Jats in Shahnama, Jats in Sindh and Migration from Sindh, a part of Jats in Mahabharata. Can somebody find who did it and get him banned? burdak 05:00, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Dear Mr. Burdak: I have just had a quick look through the history of this page and found that your image of a Jat Sepoy was removed by someone at the IP Address of 81.131.64.188 at 21:50 8th April - if that is of any help. He or she also made a number of other changes including interfering with some of the changes I had made. I may disagree with you on some things - but just removing sections without discussing it or even noting what one has done is not on. Please, whoever is doing this, stop immediately. Sincerely, John Hill 06:36, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Mr John Hill ! I searched further and found that all the content referred above was deleted by the same fellow. I have warned him on his talk page. burdak 13:12, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I have to admit, that was in poor taste whoever did that. The Jats in Sindh was questionable but qorkable so should have been discussed here before removal. The Shahnama reference, well, after seeing the sanitisation happening here and the lies about sources claiming things which evidently they did not, I have to review the Shahnama references to see if they really did claim what it is alleged here they did. But I still think they should have been left and not removed.--Mein hoon don 12:45, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

yaar meri gal suno --- there are Jatts and then there are Jaats, i think this article is having both the races mixed together, where infact they are quite different from each other(from Ravinder Singh), Any comments --

Some text and a "Citation needed" tag removed

I have just removed the comment: "It is also not accepted by modern consensus" which followed the qualifying sentence under the list of Ancient Indian kingdoms which some people claim to be Jat. It is not accurate to state that these claims are "not accepted by modern consensus" - there is obviously no consensus as we have been having an argument about this subject for a long time on these pages without reaching any consensus. However, the qualifying statement should remain as there is no proof that any of these kings or kingdoms were Jat - only speculations. Therefore, I have also removed the "citation needed" tag which is no longer necessary. John Hill 07:16, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Reply to John Hill

Dear John Hill, I do not agree with the sentence put below the Ancient Jat Rulers heading. You have put following sentence:

"It must be noted that the ancestry of the above kings has never been proven to be Jat"

Question arises how will you prove that one was Jat or not. One of the evidence adopted these by these authors is that clans are found on present day in Jats. It is the strongest evidence. It is on the basis of these historians we say that these rulers were Jats. If there is other school of thoughts who say that these are not Jats, but belong to some other clan then we have to cite the source. A general statement can not be put and assumed to be a truth. So you should not remove the citation tag. It is wrong. So I put it back. Let the citation tag be there so long further evidences come. If there is no source in support of this statement it may be removed. Thanks. burdak 10:51, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Dont think so. The citation is in itself a citation request! How can you say it needs another one? Because of a handful of theorists who only theorised it (funnily enough, mostly Jats themselves hence some bias ofcourse) how can we say that it is "confirmed" evidence which now needs to be refuted? I agree with John here Burdak, be reasonable and let's work through this. Stay calm and stop getting into a mood everytime assertions are challenged. And stop leaving silly messages on my page and on here too. Your acting immature as well as fanatical when you do silly things like this to give you an idea, Im going to do the same and show everyone how when you asked for help, you were "advised" to properly reference the contents!--Mein hoon don 12:48, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

It is after a long gap I contacted you. I have observed that large content of Jat people article was deleted in last few days. This is vandalism and should be stopped immediately. I had to restore sections like, Image of A Jat Sepoy, Jats in Shahnama, Jats in Sindh and Migration from Sindh, a part of Jats in Mahabharata. Can you find who did it and get him banned? Regards, --burdak 05:04, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi. Nice to see you again. In case, it is a case of vandalism, I highly deplore the same, and in the long run, all vandals are dealt with suitably. However, Burdakjee, when we are on a wiki, other editors may always come and change the contents. In case, you want the images, please verify the images once more for suitable copyright tags and if they fit into the contexts, you may again add them. Moreover, you should try to properly reference the contents. --Bhadani (talk) 09:33, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Reply to the above correspondences

Dear All: First of all to answer Shree Burdak: I have not added the statement ""It must be noted that the ancestry of the above kings has never been proven to be Jat" - it was there already - someone else must have added it - although do agree with it. I simply removed an unnecessary comma and the second part of the statement which said: "It is also not accepted by modern consensus" - because I think that was untenable.

I am heartened to find that there are people really trying to find a way of correcting and making this article better. I am, however, very sorry all of this has dragged on and on for such a long time. I don't enjoy finding fault with things and having to constantly argue points - I would much rather be doing other things. It is just that I think that in an article in a free open encyclopedia which is available to people around the world, there should be informative, historically accurate, and reliable information which presents Jats in a positive but realistic way. Otherwise people will go away with a false idea of Jats - and may be turned off, or even angered, by some of the inflated (and, I believe, ridiculous) claims that have been made on this page.

It has been my good fortune to know many Jats through my life, including close friends and people who have kindly and generously helped me when I was in need. And not only Jats, but Indians in general. I grew up amongst people of Indian descent, I have lived in India (and I should point out that, in many ways, I feel more at home in India than in my mother country - Canada). I am fascinated with Indian history and have have spent many enjoyable years studying it. My life has been immeasurably enriched by my contact with India and Indians, including Jats. So, it is with a deep sense of love and respect, indebtedness and responsibility, that I approach Indian history, and I hate to see it being misused in ways which I fear may increase communal tensions and/or bring Jats into ridicule.

There is far too much of such problems already in this sad world - surely here we can do better, avoid these unnecessary and negative actions, and present a truly accurate and positive picture of Jats and their accomplishments for the world to see and learn from. This article could be (and should be) an example of fairness, accuracy and interest to all.

It is for these reasons, dear readers, that I have kept coming back here and trying to point out the misquotes, suppositions passed off as facts, misrepresentations and inflated claims and incessant bickering. It is really quite shameful and unnecessary and has, at times, brought out bad feelings and even angry outbursts from myself - which has been an unpleasant surprise for me.

At this point I am really at a loss as to what to do. As I see it, the page at present contains a number of distortions and even falsehoods (many of which I have already pointed out and have tried to deal with - but most of them are still in there). Because I have found so many wrong claims in sections that I know something about - I am fearful and deeply suspicious that there may be others in areas that I don't know enough about to check properly. One problem is that I am at least 2,500 km from a decent library - so I only have my own small library of works on India to check, and whatever I can find on the internet.

I really feel the page should be heavily edited, or even better, rewritten, to make sure everything on it is factual or, when dealing with legendary, mythological or traditional material this should be kept to a minimum and clearly marked as such. Such material could be expanded on other pages clearly marked as "Jats and Mythology", Jats in Legend", "Jats in Indian scripture", or similar. There is no need to get every reference to Jats onto one page.

This should be a general page giving the average reader a reliable and factual account of who Jats are, and what their culture and achievements have been. There is no need to endlessly promote Jats and Jat accomplishments beyond what is well-established and known. Jats, as a group, are as good as any other people on the face of this planet, and their history is as interesting and as glorious as any I can think of. I know that Jat history has been ignored and distorted by other groups (particularly ruling groups and conquerors) at times. Please remember that this has happened (and is presently happening) to many peoples around the world. There is absolutely no need to feel inferior and try to compensate for this by overblown and false claims. This, I believe, is what I have been objecting to most on this page.

However, this rather major work of revision is obviously not for me to attempt. I am not a Jat - nor am I an expert on the history of Jats. I am happy to help and certainly hope to continue making suggestions or to point out when I think there is an error (whether deliberate or not) but, really, it should be written by qualified people, preferably by Jats themselves. And Jats themselves should (I humbly suggest) take responsibility for this page to make sure that it is accurate and wholesome and not likely to bring ridicule on their community or to cause hatred or resentment. I can't do this for you - but I sure hope it happens - and the sooner the better.

When I do see something that I know about that I feel needs correcting I will continue to say so - and will continue to give my reasons for doing so. But, please don't feel that I am hostile towards Jats, or am trying to be difficult for the sake of being difficult - quite the opposite is the case.

I wish everyone the very best and do hope that you can all find some way of overcoming your differences to produce a fine, informative article which you (and all of us) can feel proud of. Best wishes to all. Sincerely, John Hill 14:49, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Guptas were Jats of Dharan gotra

The Arya Manjushri Mul kalpa, is a history of India covering the period 700 BCE to 770 AD. The history was a Buddhist Mahayana work, by a Tibetan scholar, and was composed sometime in the 8th century CE.

K P Jayaswal brought this material out from above book in his eminently scholarly book :An Imperial history of India C 700 BC – C 770 AD. K P Jayaswal has spotted and brought out the fact that the second Guptas, (Chandra Gupta II, Samudra Gupta etc circa 200 BCE to 600 BCE) were Jats, who came originally form the Mathura area. They were of the “ Dharan” goth/Gotra, as shown by the inscription of the Prabhadevi Plate, where she gives her father’s (and her) goth as Dharan. The Dharan Jats still can be found in the U.P Mathura region and they proudly point to their ancient glory, of how their forefathers ruled Hindustan.

According to him Gupta is said to have been a Mathura-Jata (Sanskrit- Jata-vamsa). Jata-vamsa, that is, Jata Dynasty stands for Jarta, that is, Jat. That the Guptas were Jat; we already have good reasons to hold (JBORS, XIX. p. 1U). His Vaisali mother is the Lichchhavi lady.

Here is produced point wise account from a famous historian K.P. Jayaswal's book, History of India, PP 115-16 :

• That nowhere Guptas disclose their origin or Caste status. That their caste sub-division was Dharan. Since Prabhavati Gupta daughter of Chandra Gupta II and queen of Rudrasen II Vakataka in her copper plate grantof Pune has shown sub-caste of her family (Gupta) as Dharan (EI XV-41 P-42).
• The Salvas were a branch of the Madras and were ruling at Sialkot. These Madras had a branch named Kuninda, who were related to Koliya Naga.
• Karaskars were thus a Punjabi people a sub-division of the Madras. We know that the Madras were Vahikas and Jartas. This community, thus, consisted of several sub-divisions.
• Since according to grammatical illustration of Chandra-gomin the Jarta defeated the Huns, which means Skanda Gupta defeated the Huns. Hence Guptas were Jartas or Jat.

Bhim Singh Dahiya has proved by applying “Grimm’s Law of Variation” that in Indo-European languages the alphabet “J” changes to “G”. Due to this law the Chinese call Jats as “Getae” and Germans call them “Got”, “Gaut” or “Goth”. The Proto-Germanic name Gaut changes to Gupt as under:

Gapt is considered to be a corruption of Gaut (Gaut→Gavt→Gaft→Gapt, cf. eftir and eptir, "after" in Old Norse). Gapt changed to Gupt in India.

When Chandragupta II, Vikramaditya married his daughter with a Vakataka prince he called tribe as "Dharan" which is a gotra of Jats even today. Skandagupta has written in an inscription of Junagarh that Gupta is a title, which means soldier or a chief. Hence Bhim Singh Dahiya concludes that Guptas were Jats. burdak 04:50, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

My God. You have officially made us a laughing stock now Burdak, well done.

Gupta is another word for Jat?! So now that we have established that the Guptas are just europeanised Jats (funny how that happened in India, centuries after they settled in India, so how this europeanisation occurred I dont understand..) can we also establish if the Marathas were also Jat? Im sure you can Burdak.

Hang on, you also established in your mind, (theory ofcourse) that Burdaks are also Afghans too (i.e. Wardak) considering no proud Afghan will ever admit to this, nor any Punjabi Burdak has ever known this (duh) then can we also prove that the Pathan's who invaded India many times were also Indian? I dont think it'll be hard considering you've made Rustam Shah of Persia and others now into Jat too, lol.

You say Jat= Gaut→Gavt→Gaft→Gapt = Gupta. How about Gupta = Gupta?!--Mein hoon don 15:43, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

There is nothing left to research

The above note supplied by Mr. Burdak is taken word for word from http://www.jatland.com/home/Gupta_Empire , but, let us not judge him too harshly, as he was, apparently, originally responsible for this masterpiece of logic and historical reasoning himself on the jatland.com site.

We might as well close this page (and many if not most other pages on Indian history) and just refer everyone to Mr. Burdak's own "wikipedia." There you can find all the "proof" you will ever need (and far, far more) that, not only was Delhi - and many other places of import - founded by Jats, but the following kingdoms were all Jat kingdoms:

• Jangladesh: Asiagh; Beniwal; Godara; Johiya; Kaswan; Nehra; Saran; Punia
• Lichhavi Dynasty
• Mauryan Empire: Chandra Gupta; Bindusara; Ashoka
• Kushan Empire: Kadphises; Havishka; Kanishka; Vasudeva
• Gupta Empire: Srigupta; Ghatotkacha; Chandragupta; Samudragupta; Chandragupta II; Kumaragupta I; Skandagupta; Narasimhagupta
• Malwa: Harshavardhana; Shiladitya; Singhavarma; Vishnuvardhan; Yasodharman
• Sindh: Balhara; Nehra; Rai Dynasty

You might also like to read about the Jat kingdoms in: Afghanistan; Asia; Assyria; Baluchistan; China; Egypt; Greece; India; Iraq; Iran; Italy; Jutland; Kent Kingdom; Maldives; Nepal; Scandinavia; Turkey; Turkistan; Ukraine.

Seeing Krishna was a Jat and had 14,000 (I think that was the number) wives, and he lived some 5,000 years ago, it is becoming clear to me now that everyone in the world is a Jat and there is absolutely no need for any more historical or archaeological research as everything is "proved" already. Undoubtedly, Mr. Burdak will soon enlighten us as to how the Jats founded the Aztec, Mayan and Incan empires, Japan, Easter Island, Australian Aboriginal cultures, African cultures, etc., etc., etc.

Jats of religions other than Hindu (including Sikh and Muslim Jats) should examine the notes on the Ary Samaj page as you are clearly in serious error - see: http://www.jatland.com/home/Arya_Samaj . After reading it you will be sure to understand that your previous beliefs must be wrong because:

"The Vedas were created by God as prior to the creation of the universe and given to the ancient rishis. It contains all the fixed truths of the universe, the True Knowledge. Such laws are unchangeable (i.e. Karma, Dharma and Physical laws), they are not of the changeable type (i.e. this webpage has the colour 'x')."

And, again:

"a) The Arya Samaj does not believe in the infallibility or immunity from mistakes. To err is to be human.

b) The only appropriate forms of worship are that of the fire (havan).

c) The Arya Samaj believes in the Law of Karma. This is the truth that "acts must follow by their consequences, that the result of actions cannot be warded off or atoned by any means". This is in connection with the theory of reincarnation.

d) The Arya Samaj does not believe in "Fate". Those born in a lowly position are not condemned to live a life of despair. It is the soul system that has degraded people to punish them for the positions of the rich and powerful.

e) Everyone can make and unmake his or her destiny through the Law of Karma.

f) The Vedas are infallible and expects every woman and man to know them and to expound them for the benefits of others."

Now you know - you have no excuse! I guess we had better just ask Mr. Burdak if we can borrow all the articles from his Jatland website and forget about trying to write anything different here in the Wikipedia (for, if you try you will be sure to be abused and worn down into submission by the dogged persistence of Mr. Burdak and his true-believer friends). As Mr. Burdak has already said to one presumptious contributer to this page: "Mind it!!!!" John Hill 06:22, 19 April 2007 (UTC) (John Jat Hill)

I dont blame your anguish Mr Hill, Burdak and his friends have made this page amazingly ludicrous. I have only just added a dispute tag to the life and culture part of this article. Swords girded around their waists?! Ready for battle for their people? this isn't a romantic war propoganda novel, it's an encyclopedia!? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mein hoon don (talk • contribs) 15:49, 21 April 2007 (UTC).

Well, I do hope that one day this article might be worthy of being in an encyclopedia, but sometimes I despair. I am extremely busy at the moment trying to get a book ready for the publishers so I wish someone other than myself would edit out all the romantic and elitist nonsense that the page is already cluttered with (and is still being added to), and check out all the "references" because so many false and misleading ones have been given in the past. It has turned this whole article into a farce, which is really sad - and so unnecessary. John Hill 04:43, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Bias tag added

I have tried to avoid using this tag as long as possible but I don't think I should continue being so accepting of material that is likely to cause bad feelings between various communal and/or racial groups or, at the very least, are misleading to readers. Here are some of the statements which I feel show bias or unprovable assertions presented as "fact" and, therefore, should be removed from this article:

1. "In the government of their villages, they appear much more democratic than the Rajput; they have less reverence for hereditary right and a preference for elected headmen."

2. "Jats and Meds have been the oldest occupants of Sind." What about the Harrapans? How can it then be said in the next paragraph that: "Traditionally Jats of Sind consider their origin from the far northwest and claimed ancient Garh Gajni (modern Rawalpindi) as their original abode."?

3. "The Sinsinwar Jat rulers of Bharatpur have been recorded as Yadavavanshi, the descendants of Krishna by Prakash Chandra Chandawat.[23] Historian UN Sharma has mentioned the chronology of Krishna in which starting from Sindhupal in 64th generation of Krishna to Bharatpur ruler Maharaja Brijendra Singh (1929-1948) all the rulers are mentioned as Yaduvanshi Jats.[24] Sidhu Jats are also Bhatti Rajput in origin, and thus Yaduvanshi in origin."

Why is the genealogy of some royal family, supposedly descended from a god, inserted into this article with no qualification. Genealogies, particularly, royal genealogies, are notoriously unreliable and often try to present a sanitised and glorified background for a family. Therefore this bald unprovable claim should either be eliminated from the article or clearly marked as a (probably) biased attempt by a family to show their descent from a deity.

4. "The clan names of the Jats are unique in India. However, some of their clan names do overlap with the Rajputs and Gujars." Now - what is the point in saying that "the clan names of the Jats are unique in India" if, in the same sentence you state: "However, some of their clan names do overlap with the Rajputs and Gujars."?? This does not make sense.

5. "The Jats of the lower Indus comprise both Jats and Rajputs." Please let us know what Rajputs have to say about this. I have never heard of a Rajput claiming they were a Jat - but, perhaps some do.

6. How can it be claimed that: "Nabha was a state of Siddhu Jats" when it is also said in the same paragraph that: "According to another version they the founder of this Sikh dynasty descent from Jaisal, clan of Bhatis the founder of the State of Jaisalmer in 1156."

7. "Today, besides agriculture, Jats are engaged in white-colour [sic!] jobs, trade and commerce." What about "blue-collar" jobs, and as servants? I have known Jats working in such positions. Why are only the more "respectable", positions listed. On the other hand, why not mention Jat doctors and lawyers and the hundreds of other positions filled by Jats? Wouldn't it be better just to say that as more Jats are moving into cities and foreign countries they are beginning to move into many new professions?

These points are in addition to the many others I have previously raised on this Talk page (and in the Archives) pointing out many falsehoods, misleading statements, wrongly quoted material, and racial and religious supremacist views - some of which, fortunately, I have been able to remove from the article and they have not yet been reinstated.

Please, dear reader, have a close look at these and the other disputes on this Talk page and then help to make this a factual article of interest to all and truly worth of Jats.

Tonight I have also added a "bias tag" to the even more deeply disturbing article on the Indo-Aryan origin of Jats which interested readers might like to check.

Sincerely, John Hill 10:35, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

...........................................................

More questionable references

I notice someone calling himself "James Smith2" (is this an alias for LR Burdak, by any chance?) has recently begun adding some more misleadingly referenced text.

He states that: "Many Jats continued to resist, and a century later, Jatts would stage rebellions against the Abbasid Caliphs, even killing some of their Amirs" and gives as a reference a talk given by a Mr. M. H. Panhwar given to the National Museum in Karachi in 1979. In fact, Mr. Panhwar makes no such statement at all in his article - the closest to it is perhaps his account on p. 11 of his article that the Arab Hamari, Umar bin Abdul Aziz killed Imran bin Musa Barmaki the Abbasid governor of Sindh and with "the help of local Sindhi tribes of Jats, Meds and others he was able to capture Sindh in 854/5 AD and establish Habari dynasty."

Actually, the comment is taken word for word from the source of James Smith2's previous reference which is a stridently pro-Jat website at: http://www.surajmalfoundation.com/jattoday.html where the comment is unreferenced and, therefore, may reasonably be suspected of bias.

Readers having a look at this website may be interested to note how many of the contentious statements made here in the past have been taken from it with hardly any changes. Many long passages have been taken word for word from this website. To give just three examples (the first three I have checked this morning) - the whole of the sections on the "Jat Kingdoms in Medieval India," the "Rai Dynasty" and "Bharatpur" have been pasted in practically without change (as far as I can see) from this Jat website. No credit has been given in this article for these long lifted passages. I believe this is plagiarism and not permissible in the Wikipedia and is probably a breach of copyright as well.

I suggest all such sections be removed, and then rewritten and properly referenced. Before I start removing them, though, would anyone like to make any comments please? Also, would someone else like to take on this necessary editing job? Sincerely, John Hill 04:46, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Thats not good. I think you should take the initiative and go for it John. Funnily enough, Mr James Smith2 is actually complaining about me to other vandal patrollers when he himself is added breached unsourced and biased material? The poor attitude of the users of this article is astonishing and indicative of the bias we face here.--Mein hoon don 13:33, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Edits

Any edits you make (John) must be agreed with fellow wikipedians in consensus otherwise any unilateral edits will be reverted immediately.--Indian50 23:15, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

One more thing John please DO NOT make personal attacks on LR Burdak (accusation of him having alias) this highly uncalled for and not acceptable behaviour. Personal attacks are not tolerated here. Please do not do it again otherwise I will have to report you. Thanks.--Indian50 23:23, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

To Indian50

First, let me assure you I NEVER make edits without giving my reasons and signing my name properly.

Second, there is absolutely no justification for you to insist that I must get consensus from "fellow wikipedians" before I make any "unilateral" edits. No one else on the Wikipedia has to seek consensus before editing - why are you making a special case of me?

Also, why do you threaten to revert any edits I make immediately? Who do you think you are? Do you not check first to see if you think they are worthwhile edits? I notice on your User page that you say you are opposed to on-line censorship - your note above makes a mockery of this. If you make such a threat again I will definitely report you.

Third, my question as to whether Mr. Burdak has been using aliases is in response to him asking another contributor to this page if he or she was, in fact, me. (They certainly were not - I only use one address - and that is under my proper name - John Hill). So, it is Mr. Burdak who started this querying of identity - not me. The first time I noticed he did this was on 07:03, 25 April 2007 (UTC). I think maybe you should warn him to stop. Thanks, John Hill 01:46, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

More objectionable material

I notice there has been some more (at least to me) objectionable material added to this rather sad page on Jats, including the following:

"They are considered genetically superior to other castes and as a result can only marry within their caste. "It only takes a spoonfull of oil to contaminate a ships drinking supply"- a leading jatt comentator made on observing a jatt sikh girl marrying a muslim male.

The Jat people, as is very well known, sprung forth from the locks of Lord Shiva's head.This ancient depiction, reference or portrayal of Jat people is testimony to their noble, and divine origins. The head is considered sacred in indian culture being one of the chakra's that allows the soul to leave the body on its cosmic journey. With this in mind it is not a difficult conclusion that Jat people have an important and original station in Indian culture. [6]."

I notice that the reference numbered [6] only gives "aa" - so I presume this is another case of vandalism.

I have hesitated to remove these statements because of threats to reverse anything I do on this page. Is there anyone else out there willing to make the necessary cuts? Thanks, John Hill 01:57, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Re: Mr John Hill

I was out for last many days not editing Wikipedia. Mr John Hill seems very much biased against me and wants to put a ban on expanding this article. John Hill had messaged that he is busy and some fellow should come in his place that created doubt in my mind about a certain fellow who was inactive for long period and became active only after John hills call. So I asked him if you are same as John Hill. It was a simple query not to offend any body. That fellow put certain allegations against me but I do not mind. I believe in good health and spirit of Wikipedia. So I contribute. Unfortunately many members have not contributed even a para about Jats and their history but have started considering as experts without understanding the social complexity of the society in India. It will not help. I have created content with reputed sources. We have to accept variety of views when there is no single opinion about a fact.

I do not know what John Hill wants to prove by his comments about Jatland Wiki and Arya Samaj article on it. This site has its copyright policy made clear on its policy document so where is the need to ask permission of Mr Burdak. Mr Burdak is an editor on that site also like Wikipedia. Arya Samaj was written by some body else and not by me. At times I do editing. Why should it bother Mr John Hill at all.

I do not believe in alternate names. I always write in my own name and give the references.

Regards, --burdak 13:48, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Re. Mr. Burdak

I feel I must reply to Mr. Burdak's comments above. First, let me say there is no way I wish to put a ban on expanding this article - I would just like to see it accurate and free of biased and false information. The first thing to do would be to remove questionable material and recheck all the facts. Then, perhaps, we would stand a chance of having a fresh start on producing a useful encyclopedia article instead a misleading mishmash of fantasy and fact.

I have spent many months now pointing out false quotes, misleading quotes, mythological and other unprovable information presented as facts, and even numerous racially and communally divisive comments in this and related articles (please check the earlier exchanges on this page and the archives to it). Most of my queries and comments above remain unanswered and only a few of them have been acted on. When will the authors (or someone else) attempt to reply to them? If there is no reply - I believe these passages should be changed or removed.

Mr. Burdak says: "We have to accept variety of views when there is no single opinion about a fact." I agree - but with the qualification that this lack of consensus must be made plain in the article so readers are not misled. This is something that has been very commonly lacking on this page - as I have regularly pointed out.

It have found it very difficult to have a reasonable exchange with Mr. Burdak because he either does not answer criticisms or he goes off on a different angle, and/or makes copious quotes from hard-to-check references and/or makes unfounded accusations.

Please, Mr. Burdak, you do not seem to have understood what I have been writing about nor my concerns about lifting long unattributed passages word-for-word for some other website without even mentioning where the material was taken from. Please look at what I actually wrote above - and, when you understand what I have written, then, if you wish, please reply again.

Finally, I am relieved to hear that Mr. Burdak, like myself (but unlike some of the people who have made personal attacks against me on these pages) does not believe in alternate names and says: "I always write in my own name and give the references." That is a good start. Maybe, Mr. Burdak, if we try to be unbiased, truthful, and always fair, together we can make this page truly worthy of the Wikipedia and a credit to Jat people. I believe it is worth a try for, as it stands now, it is far below standard. John Hill 07:38, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Deletion of section quoting Xuanzang and qualifying statement added to the list of kings claimed to be Jats

Well, I guess if no one else will do it - I better start cleaning up a few of the many problems in this article. First, I will remove the section on Xuanzang where he refers to some people living along the Indus River. As I pointed out quite a while ago - there is no way to tell whether or not Xuanzang was referring to Jats or to some other group of people - he certainly never made this clear. Therefore, in spite of some claims attributed to a Dr. Raza, until there is some real evidence this information has no place in a Wikipedia article.

Secondly, someone has deleted the qualifying sentence from the list of ancient kings some writers have claimed here were Jats. As we have discussed this in detail earlier on these pages - and there is no real evidence (just claims) that some of them were Jats - I will, therefore, add a qualifing statement again to this list so that readers are not misled. Please do not remove it until some real evidence is given for these claims. John Hill 04:34, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Mr. Chaudhary's reply - but no apology

Well, wonder of wonders, Mr. Chaudhary has finally deigned to make a rely to my request for an apology - almost three months after I posted it (see above)! But, of course, there is no apology (I wonder why I am not surprised at this?). Instead, I am assailed with more accusations: "All you are doing is to push your POV, and deleting and re deleting material that does not suit your POV."

Then you say: "You have been asked to join the “Jathistory” group and prove your case if you can, rather than clutter up the article here. You choose not to. You are welcome to change your mind at any time."

First of all - there is nothing I have to "prove" - all my arguments have been detailed on these pages already although most of my comments and queries remain unanswered. Those who have something to "prove" are those who have posted questionable information and refrained from answering queries put in good faith.

What I have been talking about for the past year or more is how to make this a reasonable and balanced Wikipedia article on Jat people. Why should I discuss this somewhere else - out of public view? Why should I try to discuss matters with you on a site where I might well be censored? I say this because I sent a request for an apology from you to your website - but as far as I know it was never posted on it (though, I must admit I have not bothered to check the site for a couple of months now).

No, Mr. Chaudhary - I believe any discussions we may have should be kept in the open - I wouldn't want to meet you down some back alley of the internet as, from your past behaviour, I can only expect abuse and deviousness. John Hill 22:42, 24 May 2007 (UTC)