Talk:Super Nintendo Entertainment System

SNES & S.N.E.S

Prehaps mention could be made of the fact that SNES can either be pronounced as a word (Rhyming with Pez) or as the letters S.N.E.S. I may be mistaken, but everyone I've spoken to in the UK uses the word, whereas everyone in America I've spoken to uses the letters. 81.137.159.61 14:40, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

as there's been no objections, added a small note about this 81.106.203.120 04:27, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I think we'd need a source for that, frankly. I'm an American, but my friends and I always referred to it as "s-ness." In any case, this really doesn't seem all that encyclopedic, as it's pretty much standard for a lot of unofficial acronyms. – Sean Daugherty (talk) 21:25, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I think some mention would be useful: this can be a confusing point when someone uses a pronunciation of the word SNES (Which I've now discovered can be pronounced one of several ways)

hardly the best source, I know, but a few interesting discussion on the subject: http://uk.gamespot.com/pages/unions/forums/show_msgs.php?topic_id=25234640&union_id=177 - interestingly, the say Gamespot UK Uses the word.

http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/39309975/m/115007122831

http://digg.com/hardware/Overclocking_an_SNES

It is a point of contention, and as such, I think it's worth a mention. I Propose putting back the comment about using it either as a word or acronym, but leaving the phonetics out81.149.182.210 00:06, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

PAL slowdown

This article, along with others on Wikipedia, says that PAL games are 17.5% slower than NTSC ones. Is this number actually correct? It would seem to me that it should be 16.67% slower (or, to put it another way, NTSC is 20% faster). I know that a lot of magazines have quoted 17.5% for years, and it's become an "accepted" value, but I've never seen any actual justification for the figure. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jsutherland (talk • contribs) 12:33, 30 December 2006 (UTC).

I think it's just 50Hz divided by 60Hz... this gives a figure of 83.33%, i.e. 50Hz is 17.67% slower than 60Hz. But 60Hz is indeed 20% faster than 50Hz - they're just reciprocals.

Another point I wanted to add is that I'm not entirely convinced by the text that says the PAL version Super Mario Kart was speeded up to match the NTSC 60Hz versions. Simply because it was impossible to compete with the fastest times being publishes in Japanese and American magazines if you were running a PAL copy of the game. Is there a source/reference backup up the viewpoint that the PAL version *was* speeded up?

100-83.33 is 16.67, not 17.67, which is why I think the 17.5% figure is just wrong. I'm not sure about Mario Kart, either. I knew a couple of people who played the game a lot, one with the NTSC version and the other with the PAL one, and neither of them could play the other version because, they claimed, the timings were different. That doesn't mean the PAL game wasn't sped up, but it would at least suggest that they're not identical. Jsutherland 09:11, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Blue Collar Americanism....

Isn't the Sega Genesis also a Japanese system? Why then would Americans be anti-Nintendo? Nintendo held a cult like status in the USA. I remember the console wars well but I had more friends with SNES systems than Genesis systems. I know that "my friends" are not a valid source, but the entire paragraph speaking of an anti Japanese backlash on behalf of the Blue Collar American people does not cite it's sources either. It makes no sense to me because the Sega Genesis was also Japanese. That and also because the median age for video game players during the era of Genesis and SNES was so young, that I have a hard time seeing me and my elementary school friends bickering about class warfare and USA vs Japanese consumer products when we'd have arguments over which of the two consoles we thought was better. It was usually more of a Sonic vs Mario type argument.

Of course this is all assumption based on memory. As I recall, it was children who where their main demographic. Why would children care what country their video game system came from? And if someone did, why would they buy any 16 bit console, since it looks to me like all of them where in fact made in Japan by Japanese companies. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.81.252.86 (talk) 14:26, 8 January 2007 (UTC).

I did not write that section, but can attest that there was an anti-Japanese sentiment in the PARENTS. After all, it is the parents that would purchase the systems for their kids. If you go and look at old GamePro magazines, there are letters about this, but it is difficult to pull any quotes. One letter to the editor asked if the Atari Jaguar was Japanese like the Nintendo and the Genesis. GamePro answered with a response that Atari was an American company. Whicker 05:08, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Sega started out as an American company called Service Games, designed to provide game entertainment to US miltary abroad. However, they've been wholly Japanese-owned since, I believe, about 1983 or so. The Genesis, which obviously was released after that time-frame, would have been considered (and correctly so) a Japanese console manufactured by a Japanese corporation. That entire paragraph, in fact, doesn't attribute a single source to any of its claims. I'm going to fact-tag it and wait a week or so- if a valid source doesn't pop up, it should go. Ex-Nintendo Employee 12:46, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

The "backwards compatibility" claims you tagged were relatively easy to find a source for. It would have been extremely easy if the Sega Mega Drive article cited a source. I couldn't readily find a source for the TV incompatibility claims regarding the SNES, but I did find an official reference regarding the fact of Sega Genesis incompatibility with certain TV models. Considering some of the "interesting" things the SNES seems to do with the NTSC output, I wouldn't be surprised if there were similar incompatibilities. I didn't bother to try to find anything on the "economic warfare" angle. Anomie 15:09, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Corrected several errors about the name of the system.

1. Deleted Katakana and Romaji versions of "Super Nintendo Entertainment System", they weren't necessary, it's not known as that in Japan and they made the first paragraph difficult to read. (1st Paragraph)

2. Corrected "Super Family Computer". While one might think so because the Original NES was officially the Family Computer, the SNES was officially the "Super Famicom" not "Super Family Computer". (1st Paragraph)

3. Corrected "Famicom" to "Family Computer" and added katakana for it. (2nd paragraph)

ExpatJApan 06:00, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

SNES versus Mega Drive in Europe

A claim similar to this keeps getting added and removed, over and over again.

Meanwhile in Europe, the Sega Mega Drive was winning the 16-bit war, due to a big head-start of the console, a larger and better software range, and a better advertising campaign.

Can anyone come up with an actual source for this claim? At any rate, the claim that the SNES beat the Mega Drive worldwide in total sales seems well supported. I'm going to revert to the simple worldwide sales statement and provide a citation, and invite the people who keep adding and removing the statement to bring the discussion here. Anomie 21:51, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not specifically "for" or "against" anything persay, I just think that a:) The assertion of sales dominance needs to be factually supported, and b:) "a larger and better software range" "a better advertising campaign" are inherently POV statements. The unsourced sales stuff has sat out for a long enough time that SOMEONE could have added reference links to it, for pete's sake. Ex-Nintendo Employee 22:09, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Just letting the folks visiting this page know- instead of choosing to discuss this issue, or attempting to provide a source, the anonymous user merely decided to continue re-adding the unsourced paragraph. Like I said earlier, all I've asked for is a source, and to make the paragraph NPOV. I am absolutely all for discussing this, but, unfortunately, the anon has chosen the route of the simple undiscussed revert. Ex-Nintendo Employee 21:10, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I cannot speak for Europe, but here in the UK the Mega Drive was always far ahead with hardware sales, I worked at the Virgin Game Shop in London, and there we sold 3 Mega Drives against 1 SNES. Same with the MD software, approx. 3 - 1, we even sold Amiga 500 software 5 times more than SNES software. Sega was always on the telly with advertising, Nintendo very rarely. Also, it was (is) a well known fact that Nintendo never cared about the UK. Sorry to tell you this, but besides the Game Boy, Nintendo did very badly with the NES (The SMS did very well here, even better than in the USA) and the SNES. We didn't even get the Virtual Boy. N64 did a bit better, due to Rare being British (Golden Eye). And Game Cube, shops like Currys had to give away the system for free when 4 games were purchased. SNES software prices were higher too, so logically, the country, which grew up with cheap games on the Spectrum computer, would choose the system were games are cheaper, which was the Mega Drive. That is the British way. To prove which system did better in Europe, you need to ask people from UK, France, Germany, Italy, Spain and that is a difficult task. I guess in your article you'd better stick to 'SNES did best in USA and Japan', until you are sure and can prove that SNES did better in Europe. In the UK it did not. PC Man.

You should log in to perform your edits, that way we can know who you are instead of just "the anon using t-dialin.net IP addresses". Also, please do not add your statements to the article again until we reach a consensus here.

Your personal experiences are original research. Do you have actual sales figures from a reputable source to back up your claim that the Mega Drive was "always far ahead" in any notable region? Note this would probably be Europe, not just UK. We have provided figures showing that the SNES finished well ahead worldwide, and figures are similarly available for North America.

Sales of other Nintendo systems or other systems in general are irrelevant to this discussion. There is no need to stick to "SNES did best in USA and Japan": 49 million worldwide beats 29 million worldwide, and that is the major claim the article makes. Unless YOU can provide hard sales figures, I suggest you figure out a NPOV way to work a short statement about Europe into the existing paragraph (and tag it {{fact}} to save us the trouble). Anomie 22:18, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

But then I read this from the Wikipedia Mega Drive page, so are you sure you are right?:

By 1992, Sega was enjoying a strong hold on the market, holding a 55% market share in North America. Faced with a slight recession in sales and a brief loss of market share to the SNES, Sega again looked to Sonic to rejuvenate sales. The release of the highly anticipated Sonic the Hedgehog 2, coinciding with an aggressive ad campaign that took shots at Nintendo, fueled Mega Drive sales a while longer and boosted Sega's market share percentage back up, to an astounding 65%.

Who says that they are not right? PC Man

Further, world wide sales mean nothing. Look how amazing the NES did in Japan and USA, and how bad that system sold in Europe. Look at the Amiga 500 (as a games machine), how successful it was in Europe, and how very poorly it did in USA and even worse in Japan.PC Man

Notwithstanding the fact that Wikipedia itself is not a valid reference source according to Wikipedia's original research policy, the blurb you keep inserting is only half of the paragraph, where it talks about Sega's market share dropping below 45% by the end of the aforementioned Console War. In other words, between 1992 and 1994 Sega lost that 65% market share, a direct contradiction to what you've been trying to assert here. I've already said beforehand- I have no aversion to any FACTS in the article. But if something is going to be asserted, it needs a proper source. Furthermore, by discussing the NES and the Amiga, you're muddling the issue, which is the insertion of unsourced material into the article. Ex-Nintendo Employee 22:41, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Quoting a Wikipedia article that lacks sources doesn't do anything to advance your case. Especially when you consider the sources we provided that state 20 million SNES sales in the US[1] versus 14 million Genesis/Mega Drive sales in North America[2].

Please note, you are close to violating the three revert rule. Since you do not appear to use your Wikipedia account, this is your warning. Anomie 22:47, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not violating anything and you are in no position to give me a warning. C&VG magazine states that the Mega Drive was released in the UK in Sept 1990, whilst the SNES was released in the UK in Easter 1992. The Mega Drive had a two-Christmas head start, no way the SNES could overtake the MD. I'm not muddling any issue by also mentioning NES and Amiga, those are just other examples of 'world wide sales'. PC Man

Release dates don't matter. A "two-Christmas head start" doesn't matter. Sales figures matter. Do you have any? Anomie 23:42, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

As I said as an earlier example: NES sold 60 million worldwide (Wikipedia NES page info). NES sales in Europe: 3.5 million by 1992 (NOE info from Game Over the Book). Nevertheless, the NES was the best selling 8-bit console in the world, just not in Europe, here it failed miserably. But I realise you only talk about the SNES success worldwide as well, so yes, the SNES is the best selling 16-bit console in the World, it just came second in Europe, that's all. Be happy with that. PC Man

If you can provide a reference, it would still be appreciated. In the 'History' section there is a mention of the Europe situation that needs it. Anomie 17:16, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh just one last word: Read in Game Over how Nintendo was fiddling their 'sales figures' to their advantage (page 363) (Sega too, so they are both as bad, page 364) and that in the end, the SNES failed to blow Sega away (page 371). In the USA they rely more on statistics and lies, here in Europe, we are more hands-on, gut feelings. Work in a game shop, like I did, you soon get to know the better selling system. But nevermind, in the end both companies were lying about their sales figures, so no, sales figures don't matter at all. PC Man

Is it online anywhere? My local library doesn't seem to have a copy. OTOH, I'm not inclined to believe a book with the subtitle "How Nintendo Zapped an American Industry, Captured Your Dollars, and Enslaved Your Children" is an NPOV source. I also wouldn't trust generalization from one game store. If you have a better objective measure than sales figures, I would be happy to take a look at it. Anomie 17:16, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

The book had three American editions: 1993 - Game Over: How Nintendo Zapped an American Industry, Captured Your Dollars, and Enslaved Your Children

1994 - Game Over: How Nintendo Conquered The World

1999 - Game Over: Press Start To Continue - with Andy Eddy

I guess you'd believe the book if it only had the second (1994) subtitle, perhaps? Actually, sources for the book include people from NCL (Hiroshi Yamauchi, Sigeru Miyamoto, Masayuki Uemura, Genyo Takeda, Gunpei Yokoi, Reiko Wakimoto, and more), NOA (Minoru Arakawa, Howard Lincoln, Peter Main, Al Stone, Phil Rodgers, Gail Taiden, Don James and more). So you can pretty much trust this book quite a bit more than any wikipedia fanboy stuff.PC Man

You should probably check out WP:NPA, some of your statements are coming pretty close. Whoever the sources for the book, the material could still have been assembled in a POV manner. At any rate, I cannot speak to the POV or NPOVness of the book beyond the clear bias suggested by the subtitle and a few reviews I've read, as I have no access to said book. I reiterate: if you have a better objective measure than sales figures, I would be happy to take a look. Otherwise, I don't see that continuing this will be productive. Anomie 22:10, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Technical Specifications

I've rewritten this section, and I wanted to provide a few comments:

• I've commented out my references, because they are questionable under WP:OR#Citing_oneself (in particular, there are no publicly-available sources that qualify as a "reliable publication"; reliability depends on reputation rather than publication venue). If someone else decides the references are reliable enough, feel free to uncomment them, and maybe add {{onesource|section}} at the top.
• Per the Manual of Style for embedded lists, I've written the section in prose.
• I've completely left out the Power adapter section on purpose: the wall power specifications vary by country, and I could find no good reference on any but the US console's power specifications.
• I've left out the reference to SO and ToP using bank switching, since Googling gives some people saying the games do and some saying they don't (and no one reliable, of course).
• I've omitted a few other factoids that didn't seem to fit.

Comments are welcome. -- Anomie 03:51, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Old vs New

I changed it to the previous version because the technical specs are easier to read in list form. It also provides more vital information about the Super Nintendo that the revised edition deleted. --User:71.193.186.245

The new Specifications may not be perfect, but it's certainly better than a crude list. From WP:Trivia we have Avoid organizing articles as lists of isolated facts regarding the topic. And while tech specs are not quite trivia, it's close. Lists are good for a quick overview, and we can always do both.

The old list could be put in a table like this:

(This table is based on the Sega Mega Drive article's.)
--Anss123 10:41, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

CPU Quick Reference
Processor	Ricoh 5A22, based on a 16-bit CMD/GTE 65c816 core
Clock Rates (NTSC)	Input: 21.47727 MHz Bus: 3.58 MHz, 2.68 MHz, or 1.79 MHz
Clock Rates (PAL)	Input: 21.28137 MHz Bus: 3.55 MHz, 2.66 MHz, or 1.77 MHz
Buses	24-bit and 8-bit address buses, 8-bit data bus
Additional Features	DMA/HDMA timed IRQ parallel I/O processing hardware multiplication and division

I agree, quick reference tables might improve the section dramatically. But IMO, for a quick-reference table we don't really need every little detail. Instead, just the most important facts for each section should be tableized with the main details in the text. Something like this for the CPU section, for example. If the consensus is that this looks good, I will go ahead and add such tables.

Also, part of my motivation for rewriting that list was to get rid of some of the inaccurate information in there. For example, whoever added the "PSG sound with included 2A03 core" line must have had the NES and SNES confused. I've provided references (does anyone else agree or disagree that they are acceptable under the reliable sources for popular culture guideline?) for the majority of the information currently in the article, and I hope we can maintain sourcing for any added information.

If anyone feels any vital information has been left out, or anything could be improved, don't hesitate to join this discussion.

Anomie 14:53, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

That's a nice little table, it might be an idea to turn it into a template so that it can be used by the other console articles. It would be absolutely spiffing if we could have some sort of consistency between the console articles.

If I had my way I would have rounded away the PAL clock rates, but I know from experience that people want clock speed details accurate to at least the third decimal. BTW, what is the input clock rate? Is it the crystal?

Thinking about it, it might also be worthwhile to also include the detailed table. This since there seems to be more than a few users who appreciate the nifty gritty. (The information within would have to be fact checked, of course. I've actually seen several places that claim the SNES CPU have the NES audio thingy for a jib you mentioned, but no game utilize it - with the possible exception of Mario Paint)

Finding good reliable sources for the technical aspects of the SNES is at best tricky. Worse, the sources that pass Wikipedia's criteria might actually be flat out wrong. Sites such as romhacking.net (which I believe you dug up) is probably more accurate than most, judging solely by the name.

--Anss123 16:30, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I still think the detail should be in the text instead of a table. Having both is redundant. If you want to post the references that claim the SNES includes NES audio, I'll give my opinion. I wonder how many will have used the old version of this article as their source, though. A quick bit of original research seems to prove if it is there it's not at the same memory location as in the NES, which would make it rather pointless to have it. Reference to a primary source (bsnes's source code) similarly turns up no sign of it, which indicates that no existing games try to use it. Of course, if a cart wanted to include such hardware it could do so as an enhancement chip.

I trust the references I used because I know the research that was done to create them. While romhacking.net does have some good docs, it also has some that are not so good. The best way to find the "best" docs might be to go to various SNES-programming-related forums and ask for evaluations of the candidates, and then use the responses as a primary source justifying the use of the winners. Anomie 19:11, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but my "reference" is stored on something ancient called paper. Sadly, paper does not support linking :( But I believe you when you say that this particular "fact" is "fiction".

The problem with putting the detail in the text is not that it isn't a good idea, but that IMO the text should not be too technical. On that note, the 'detailed' specifications do not need to be hosted on Wikipedia. A convenient link (the reference section is not exactly convenient) to a site that delves into the topic should satisfy those that want that info. None of the current links we got seems to fit the bill (unless I missed one :).

Of course, Wikipedia can't carter to everyone. If there is more like User:71.193.186.245 (that feels the old specs are preferable) I think we give them a week or so to chime in before deciding.

As it stands, I personally prefer the current article.

--Anss123 19:59, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

A preview. Also, feel free to comment on the proposed changes to the Enhancement chips section (basically: details should be on the linked pages). Anomie 03:21, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I do believe that this Quick Reference thing is an excellent idea. I was actually the one who did the revert before I made my account. It was my first Wikipedia edit. Savie Kumara 00:58, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia! I'm glad you inspired us to create those quick reference tables, they did turn out well. Anomie 13:44, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Trivia

Is there anything in the The Super Nintendo in popular culture section that is actually notable? Or is it all just someone mentions "Super Nintendo", or a SNES is used as background decoration, or the writers wanted someone to be playing a game and the props department randomly pulled out a SNES? Unless the Simpsons references are a popular meme, nothing on the current list appears to be anything but absolutely trivial.

Unless the consensus is definitely to keep it, I'm just going to remove the whole section in a few days. And if we want to keep it, we'll have to do better than just "A Super Nintendo was once [mentioned/played/visible in the background] in X" for various values of X. Anomie 20:35, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I tried to delete it a few days ago, but the internet went down and I took it as a sign from God that... okay I'm lazy, Anyway, other articles regularly remove similar sections on the grounds that the pop culture references are better kept to their respective articles.

In any case, the guideline tells that lists of facts should be avoided. They're acceptable as skeleton sections but in this case I doubt anyone will write about how the SNES influenced popular culture, and even if someone is I can't see this particular list being of much use to them.

I've removed the section.

--Anss123 21:51, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Images

I'd like to include a comparison of the different cartridge shapes in the article, but I don't have a PAL/Japan cart to photograph. If someone can take a picture of such a cart (resembling the NA cart image to the right) and upload it to Commons, I would appreciate it. Or if you have both types of carts, photograph them both next to each other and save me the trouble of combining photos.

My plan is to put the comparison image into the Regional lockout section, something like I've done at User:Anomie/SNES.

Also, BTW, the History section could probably use an image or two. I'm not sure what would go well in there though. Anomie 18:01, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Peripherals dispute

Ok, let's discuss this here. Do you dispute this source?

Since the SNES's release, every developer has imitated the console's popular button layout (dubbed the "diamond layout"), except for Nintendo themselves. Sure, the design was inventive, as it first allowed for that perfect ammount of buttons right at your thumbprint. However Nintendo is the only company so far to seriously strive toward innovating upon innovation, realizing that more can be done with these same four buttons to make gaming even smoother. Regardless, the Super NES controller has since its conception been the standard by which all non-Nintendo controllers are designed - the most basic of basics, if you will.

The image is used to reference the specific examples in the disputed statement. (While I have no source for this parenthetical, probably Sony copied the SNES controller layout when they changed their SNES-CD to the PlayStation and then Microsoft copied the PlayStation controller for their Xbox.)

This source talks about the shoulder buttons:

It [the SNES] also introduces the idea of shoulder buttons

FWIW, I looked up your Colecovision controller example. The Colecovision controller seems designed to be held in one hand, with the joystick or number buttons intended to be operated with the free hand. This differs from todays designs, intended to be held in both hands with controls primarily operated by the thumbs. So I'm not convinced that the side buttons on one design correspond to shoulder buttons on the other. I've used an old Atari controller with a similar design (sans number pad), and to me the side buttons don't seem to correspond to the SNES shoulder buttons at all.

Also, BTW, why revert instead of fixing the one word ("adopted") you had an issue with? I would have just let it go if you had changed "adopted" to "used". Anomie 17:14, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Of course I dispute it. First of all, the reference itself comes from a site that doesn't fit Wikipedia's standard of reliability- it's a tiny homemade site called "NGEB". The problem with sites like this is that they oftentimes make claims out of the sheer lack of knowledge. Case in point would be the plethora of people who still refuse to believe that the first platformer, analog stick and dpad were Nintendo's creations. Furthermore, one can't just use a picture to create a reference source- the reference must actually textually back up the claim. As I said in my edit summary, that diamond layout existed in various forms before the SNES controller- but if you can provide a GOOD source that gives some direct evidence that the SNES controller was the influence in every controller you mentioned, it can stay. Wikipedia's guidelines are verifiabilty. And the "shoulder" button thing is just nitpicking- it's the positioning of the buttons (on the left and right "shoulder" sides of the controller), not the finger positioning of them that defines what the button is. Ex-Nintendo Employee 22:57, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Too bad most of the sources we can possibly find on this sort of thing are at that level of reliability, huh? Maybe you should go through the rest of the sources in the article and get rid of half of them. Don't forget to check the <!--commented-out--> sources too. I'm actually at least halfway serious about this, BTW, and not just trying for WP:POINT. A picture can be a reference, if the thing referenced is something that can be effectively imaged. After all, "a picture is worth 1000 words". I could just as well say you're nitpicking in your definition of "shoulder" buttons by arguing button placement over hand position; I contend a similar thing for a Colecovision-style controller might be a button on the joystick knob. But whatever, I don't care enough (getting wikibonked?) to argue, so i'll just give in. Anomie 03:59, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

A short wikibreak seems to have helped me. I hate that we have to rely on Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/examples#Popular culture and fiction to justify most of the sources for this article, as that paragraph doesn't give much guidance as to what exactly is acceptable and what still isn't. Not that the rest of the policies are so clear either. How can you tell the difference between an article on a professional-looking personal website, a blog entry in news-article style, and a niche-market news website with a "reader comments" feature? How can you determine if someone is an "expert" on some facet of popular culture? If 500 people on a forum variously give their support to 7 different opinions on X, does that count as a (primary) source supporting a statement "Popular opinions on X differ, including #1, #2, ..."? These are mainly rhetorical questions; if they couldn't reach any sort of consensus on WT:ATT (besides that WP:IAR could be used), we're unlikely to usefully decide anything here unless we decide to follow their lead and use WP:IAR.

I've still been unable to find anything I'm sure you'd like as a secondary source, Ex-Nintendo Employee, although I have found a number of articles making the same sort of statement (particularly regarding the original PlayStation controller).123456 Would you accept a statement along the lines of "This controller is cited as the ancestor that influenced the design of many modern console gamepads, including ..." and supported by a few of these sources? Anomie 21:17, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I think it would be acceptable to use a few of these links, along with a statement about how it is widely believed that many modern controllers derive their design from the Super NES pad. Just make sure to keep out the unreliable pages. The Axess page is completely wrong about a LOT of items in many spots (it's written by one singular individual who made much of it up as he went along- check out his blurb on the NES Max). I've never heard of Shamoozal, so I can't comment on them. But 1up and Advanced Media Network appear to be reliable, quoteable sources, so that should work out quite well. Thanks for realizing I'm not completely unreasonable- just trying to make sure we keep our sources reliable so they stick. :) Ex-Nintendo Employee 01:12, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I knew you were at least mostly reasonable from some of the other discussions we've had here. (: I still would appreciate a review of the rest of the sources, especially the commented-out sources.

These I felt I couldn't add to the Technical Specifications section due to COI in my including them. I asked previously for a review of their acceptability, but no one responded. On the plus side, if there is anything factually wrong in these sources I can easily have the author issue a correction ;)

• anomie. "Anomie's SNES Port Doc" (text). Retrieved 2007-04-21.
• anomie. "Anomie's SNES Memory Mapping Doc" (text). Retrieved 2007-04-21.
• anomie. "Anomie's Register Doc" (text). Retrieved 2007-04-21.
• anomie. "Anomie's S-DSP Doc" (text). Retrieved 2007-04-21.
• anomie. "Anomie's SPC700 Doc" (text). Retrieved 2007-04-21.

These support the pronunciation footnote, but depend on considering each post as a self-published statement of that poster's own opinion and considering the aggregate as a primary source supporting the footnote. As this is a non-standard interpretation, I don't want to include them without at least one second opinion.

• "Do you say NES or N-E-S?". Nintendo NSider Forums. Retrieved 2007-05-16.
• "Pronouncing NES & SNES". Gamespot forums. Retrieved 2007-05-16.

Anomie 03:02, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

From what I am aware of, ROMHacking.net is an extremely knowledgeable, reputable site- I would trust it implicitly, and I do believe it meets Wikipedia's standards for verification. The forums would be the opposite; since anyone can post anything to a forum, they don't meet those same guidelines and can't be used as a source. Ex-Nintendo Employee 06:50, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

You're considering the use of forums as a secondary source, in which case they would certainly be unreliable except in limited circumstances. The use here however is as a primary source: Each individual post is a reliable statement about that poster's opinion of the pronunciation of "SNES", and we could clearly use them in articles about each poster per WP:V#Self-published and questionable sources in articles about themselves. The "stretch" is using the post to support a statement about the opinion expressed rather than the person expressing it. Each individual opinion of course carries little weight, but the aggregate of differing opinions supports the statement "English speakers pronounce SNES in different ways". In general, this sort of thing could support a statement of existence like "Some people believe Y about X" or "People believe different things about X, including but not limited to Y1 and Y2". It cannot be used to support statements like "Everyone/No one believes Y about X", or any quantitative statement about belief of Y, or "few/many/most" semi-quantitative statements, or any indication as to whether Y is actually true or false. Anomie 15:15, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

An inaccuracy about Super Mario World

"Nine months later, in August of 1991,c[›] the Super Famicom was released in North America with a newly redesigned case as the Super Nintendo Entertainment System. Initially sold for a price of US$199, the North American package included the game Super Mario World. With the exception of the Sega Saturn which launched in the US in 1995, this was the last major console to include a game in its packaging at launch until the Wii featured Wii Sports as a pack-in in 2006." ----- This statement is inaccurate. The original Playstation came with Ridge Racer in the box. I know on Wiki, you need sources to prove everything, but original PSX owners can all attest to Ridger Racer coming with the system. Perhaps there was also a PSX package with no games included, but Wii with Wii sports definitely was not the next game system to include a game with the system (Sega Saturn excluded) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.68.203.56 (talk • contribs) 15:19, June 4, 2007 (UTC).

A quick search turns up a number of pages that claim the version of Ridge Racer included in the Playstation box was just a demo. I'm looking for a source for the full claim now. Anomie 20:06, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Not much luck so far... A good reference for the PS1 having no pack-in at launch,[3] and a lot of sites stating the SNES was the last Nintendo console with a pack-in until the Wii, and even a few claiming Wii Sports is first launch pack-in since SNES (ignoring the Saturn).[4][5] Anomie 02:10, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

The Gamepro issue which reviewed the original Playstation mentioned that Ridge Racer is included in the box. Unfortunately, this article is not available online on Gamepro's website. 72.80.43.123 20:04, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I've found some proof from within Wikipedia that the original Playstation included Ridge Racer. Look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ridge_Racer_%28arcade_game%29 ...look at the picture of the Ridge Racer game box. It clearly says "Not for Sale" on it. Why would any video game be not for sale? That's because it is INCLUDED with the Playstation, in the box. So it is not true that Wii and Dreamcast are the only systems after Super NES to come with a game. By the way, my Ridge Racer game box says the same thing, and it is a full version of the game, not a demo copy. 72.80.43.123 20:35, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, you have failed to make your case. I'm not inclined to take your word for it on the Gamepro article, particularly in light of the sources I have found, nor am I inclined to believe your insistence that you possess such an item.

There are many reasons a game might not be for sale. Maybe it was a store demo copy? Maybe it was an empty display box? Maybe it's the box for the demo disk mentioned? Maybe it was a pack-in with a magazine, a special controller, or some such? Or even if it is from a pack-in with the actual console, was that package offered at launch (which is what the quote discusses) or was it introduced later in the life of the system? Anomie 21:03, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Anomie is right, Ridge Racer was not a pack in game. It is possible that some retailers bundled it with the system, but for a game to be a pack in it has to be inside the game box. The PSX did have a Ridge Rager demo packed in, which all things considering is almost the whole game - just with a 60 second time limit.

--Anss123 11:57, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Proposing GA-Nomination

Anomie (and others) have done an incredible job with this article. I believe it will now stand up to a Wikipedia:Good_article_candidates nomination. Anyone (dis)agree? Doing a quick comparison with the featured Nintendo_Entertainment_System article, the SNES article is not far behind. --Anss123 21:10, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I've been trying to get it to GA or even FA level, I'm glad someone has noticed! I've been planning on submitting it for another peer review "soon", and then going for the GA/FA. But before we do any sort of nomination, we need to resolve the one {{fact}} tag left in the article (feel free to help, see above), and we should also consider if anything else needs to be sourced that isn't already. Particular areas of concern that could use some fresh eyes are History, Peripherals, and Emulation and controversies.

IMO, NES would probably fail a featured article review unless the review itself prompted interested editors to fix the problems (in particular, too many fair-use screenshots (I'd like to add an SMW screenshot to our History section, but it would just be decoration so a fair use image is not allowed), a lack of rationales, and an {{Unreferencedsection}}). Wii might be a better comparison, although they have the advantage of writing about a contemporary system and thus have many more sources to choose from. Anomie 22:09, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I suppose I should have mentioned it here when I changed the header at the top of the talk page: I've submitted the article for peer review. No one has responded yet. Anomie 19:00, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Take it as a good sign. There are no obvious faults, ergo nothing for the reviewers to point out. With that in mind, go for GA.--Anss123 19:59, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Controversial sources for "Emulation and controversies"

Since the peer review request isn't getting much attention, I've been working on sourcing various statements that seem likely to be challenged. I've just added two sources to Emulation and controversies that are likely to draw complaints from some quarters.

To support some of the statements regarding the development of SNES emulators, it is necessary to cite self-published works of the developers of these emulators and of other researchers. The two sources cited are thick with "well-known, professional researchers (scholarly or non-scholarly) in a relevant field" mentioned as an exception to WP:V#SELF, and these researchers acted as "identifiable, expert and credible moderators" as mentioned at WP:RSEX#Use of electronic or online sources.

It's no secret that I have a conflict of interest in regard to the Emulation and controversies section of this article. In the past, I have followed the recommendation to propose the changes here and allow others to implement them, but each attempt has garnered little response and the responses have been favorable. So I'm going to be bold and add these sources in the belief that consensus here will support them. Anomie 04:54, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Good Article nomination

The peer review has closed with minimal comments, but the article has greatly improved anyway. If anyone has comments relevant to the featured article nomination I plan to make when the GAC passes, feel free to mention them now to save time later. Anomie 14:13, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I passed the article. It seems good enough for you to nominate it for FA status. FunPika 23:41, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

It will now undergo a complete formal GAC review OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 06:10, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

If you want to review it, go ahead. Be sure to drop a link here so I know about it. But I see no validity to your demoting the article with the only justification being "I don't like the original reviewer." Anomie 11:15, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

The article was demoted? I don't see any evidence of that. It was and still is a Good Article, according to this Talk page. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 20:36, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

OhanaUnited didn't even actually demote it properly, they just reverted the whole GA on this page. I put it back, with the note that if they want a GA review they can follow the procedure for requesting one. Of course, I'm hoping the FAC will pass and we won't have to deal with any of that. Anomie 21:16, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I missed that. Okay. I was under the impression that it had already gone through a formal GAC review and had been passed some time ago, so it would seem inappropriate to demote it and re-review it the way it had been done. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 22:41, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Featured Article nomination

Here it goes. Anomie 01:49, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Good job!! It passed! Now, go add that well deserved star :) Xihix 19:15, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Mortal Kombat and Exclusive Licensing sections

I've been working on some massive copyediting and reorganizing in support of the Featured Article nomination, and Anomie has been very helpful in making suggestions to help the article flow better. So far, I've just tackled the lead and History sections, but I wanted to open up discussion on a couple sections: "Mortal Kombat" and "The end of exclusive licensing".

I think that both of these sections have much more to do with Nintendo's history as a company rather than the SNES's history as a console. Mortal Kombat wasn't anything groundbreaking with respect to the SNES hardware - it was just a source of controversy since the game was very bloody and, at the time, Nintendo wouldn't allow the blood and gore on their console. It could just as easily have been the N64 or the GameBoy or any other console that this happened on - it just happened to be the SNES. I think that this information really should be mentioned both on the Mortal Kombat page and in the history section for Nintendo itself, but not here. It was a very significant event in video game history - it just doesn't really have to do with the SNES itself.

The same goes for "The end of exclusive licensing" - this has to do with Nintendo's policy decisions, and this particular event also occurred during the SNES timeframe. But it wasn't really a result of the SNES - again, this could just as easily have happened with any other console. It would make more sense to put this in Nintendo's history, so that this article can stay focused on the SNES. Otherwise, I'd suggest that we refocus the paragraph so that it discusses the impacts that this had on Nintendo's marketing and sales of the SNES.

Discussion? :) — KieferSkunk (talk) — 23:11, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Probably not as big a deal now - the current layout works better than I'd expected. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 05:06, 19 July 2007 (UTC)