Talk:Japanese name

Nicknames

I believe that nicknames can exist in Japanese, such as "Satchan" for Sachiko.

(Also, "Utchan" for "Ukyou" in Ranma 1/2)

Am I mistaken?

True. My mistake. Definetely we have to mention about name like Sat-chan, Kei-kun. etc.. I totally forgot those. -- Taku 05:07 Jan 14, 2003 (UTC)

Historical names

Taku, why did you write off Historical Japanese name? I think one would wonder why ancient Japanese names have "no" in the middle? I would like to answer this and other questions. -- Nanshu 11:05 Mar 8, 2003 (UTC)

I am sorry but that article had no content but just structure. Besides, I know little about Japanese names in history. Please feel free to add mention about historical name in Japan. -- Taku 16:00 Mar 8, 2003 (UTC)

sound of silverware thrown down staircase

One time I saw a comedian in Las Vegas who said that Japanese got their names from the sound of throwing silverware down the stairwell. There was probably a few hundred Japanese in the audience, and I was pretty pissed at the guy. In my opinion, that's how Chinese people sound like they're named, so I'm probably not a lot better. I can only submit chang lin ding as my evidence--much closer than something like Isao Takamura. For some reason I think that sounds like a broken washing machine. And no,I don't know why I'm bringing this up.

--Alan D

This joke is pretty much ancient, and the nationality involved is always Chinese. I think the LV comedian messed up. Shinobu 15:30, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Yamato?

Isn't the Japanese royal family's surname "Yamato"?

I don't think so and I doubt the royal family has a surname. -- Taku 22:22, Nov 22, 2003 (UTC)

See Yamato

I don't see anything there about surname at all. --Menchi 12:52, 23 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Unicode/JIS

The claim that "Quite a few Japanese names...are often Unicode character set" is rather dubious. Isn't it confused with JIS character set problem?

No, it isn't. My Kanji dictionary has over 25000 Kanji listed and this dictionary only have around 1500 pages. Bigger dictionaries in a library would have a lot more. But if you check CJK, it is claimed "complete literacy in Japan can be expected with 2000 characters". You know it's a problem when a supposed 'final solution' seems to care nothing about more than 90% of Kanji listed in a dictionary. If your dictionary would be suddenly 1/10 thicker, well, I think you get the idea.

Revth 08:07, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Right. It should read "a very few Japanese names ...." Who wrote that? me?? -- Taku 08:13, Feb 29, 2004 (UTC)

I think saying that would needlessly confuse people so it should be "a few Japanese names". I will change it.

Macrons

I put in lots of macrons, but left them off of Ichiro Suzuki and Yoko Ono, because those names seem to be established in English without macrons. Don't know about Sakamoto Ryuichi. I put the macron in... knowing I'm being inconsistent... but I'm not familiar enough with him to know how he markets himself in English-speaking countries. If anyone has a reason to change these, please feel free.Fg2 04:01, Aug 7, 2004 (UTC)

I don't see any reason to leave the macrons out. - Sekicho 17:38, Aug 7, 2004 (UTC)

Ryukyu names

I have some questions about the sentence, "The Ryukyans, being vassals of the Chinese empires and influenced more by Chinese high culture rather than that of Japanese Shintoism, have names similar in form to those of the Chinese."

First, I agree that names like Sho Ei are highly Chinese-influenced. These, of course, are historical, and so I think that "had names" would be better than "have names." Surnames in present-day Okinawa often follow Japanese patterns, even when they're recognizably different. A typical pattern is the same two-kanji pattern of Japan. Variants exist, as in Japan. Readings might be on-yomi or kun-yomi, just as in Japan. Higa, Shimabukuro, etc. Historical readings (as in Kiyan 喜屋武) are more typical of Japanese than of Chinese. Modern given names in Okinawa seem to follow Japanese examples.

Second, I wonder about the parallel drawn between Chinese culture and Japanese Shintoism. On the one hand, a culture; on the other, a religion. The Japanese counterparts of the Sho kings would be daimyo, and many daimyo (and samurai generally) took place names as their surnames.

I would like to reword the sentence as follows: "The Ryukyans, being vassals of the Chinese empire and influenced more by Chinese culture than by Japanese, had names similar in form to those of the Chinese."

Any comments?

Fg2 23:36, Aug 7, 2004 (UTC)

I agree that the sentence sounds strange and is plainly incorrect in referring to Shintonism. But on the other hand, there are many unique, strange names in Okinawa and nothing wrong to mention it. We can do it without some strange political and religious connotations. -- Taku 23:41, Aug 7, 2004 (UTC)

I can't comment on content, as I know very little about Okinawa and the Ryukyu Islands in general, but I do know it's spelled Ryūkyūans. --Aponar Kestrel 21:57, 2004 Aug 8 (UTC)

I'm more flexible about the spelling. To my way of thinking, adding a suffix makes Ryukyuan, like shogunate, an English word. It's not in Japanese-Japanese dictionaries. So, I write it according to English conventions. Heck, we spell Tokyo without macrons, and that name really does exist in Japanese. By the way, I don't consider macrons all that important even for writing Japanese words. I see some benefit to them, and some benefit to omitting them. I admit, though, they're better than circumflexes, oh's, ou's, and -- as Brittanica has online -- underlines (ugh!). Fg2 07:17, Aug 9, 2004 (UTC)

... I can't imagine how you can see marking long vowels as not important (at least in non-loanwords; even I wouldn't bother with the macron in 'shogun' unless I meant the book). Personally, I prefer "ou", "uu", et al., simply because it makes mapping back to kana (and often, kanji) easier for me, but macrons are fairly standard for this sort of thing. I concede that there's a certain logic to the Anglicization-by-suffix arguent, though, and I certainly wouldn't bother "correcting" it in this instance.

Regardless of whether they have macrons over them or not, however, you still need two us. :) --Aponar Kestrel (talk) 07:47, 2004 Aug 9 (UTC)

There's a place name in Okinawa, ライカム. Turns out it's the former location of the US COMmander of the RYE-yew-kyews. That's a mistake that wouldn't have happened if we had a better system of romanization. So, I see the value of a good system. And yes, I agree that the macrons (or ou's or uu's) do let the reader get back to the kana. Incidentally, Commodore Perry called it Lew Chew--- that breaks a few conventions! Maybe for Okinawa, we should replace Hepburn with Perry. (I'm only joking!) Fg2 08:09, Aug 9, 2004 (UTC)

Ha! I'll see your Perry (1853), and raise you H. J. Clifford's "Loo-Choo" (1818) [1]. (Although apparently 琉球 Ryūkyū is read Lūchū (liu2qiu2) in Chinese, and they did officially belong to China until 1879.) So I suppose a (very strange) case could be made for "Luchuan" as the "correct" form. But then I'd think you meant Lu Chuan [2] [3].

... and I think that last bit probably means that this is getting silly and pointless, and not likely to be helping us make an encyclopedia. So I shall be quiet now. --Aponar Kestrel (talk) 08:51, 2004 Aug 9 (UTC)

Love it! Fg2 09:27, Aug 9, 2004 (UTC)

Not silly, these mispronunciations are neat and should be included in an article. Wikipedia, where no detail is too obscure! Maybe in Japanese place names or romaji? --216.129.68.82 20:54, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I hate to start a controversy, but Okinawa did not BELONG to China at all. Payment of tribute to gain access to trade and occupation by foreign military forces for the purpose of territorial control (no Chinese troops were ever in Okinawa) are two different things. Also, there is no evidence the Chinese taxed the people of Okinawa or conducted any census on the population. Also, Ryukyu was the name of the kingdom and by extention, the period during which the Sho dynasty paid tribute to China. In the Okinawan language, the island was called "Uchinaa", when written with Chinese characters is 沖縄 , which is how the Japanese came to call it "Okinawa" Matt, 6 January 2005

Merchant names

In the Edo period (and before), many merchants were known by the brand (the name of the store). For example, Dembei, the owner of Sagamiya, would be Sagamiya Dembei. Sagamiya was a brand, not a product (they didn't produce Sagami Provinces).

Given names ending in n

Fujita Den comes to mind. There's a story behind the name... See ja:藤田田 ... hardly mainstream. (He established McDonald's Japan and Toys R Us in Japan.)

Can't think of a specific Shin, but it seems real enough. I can, however, think of a person whose given name is Hōshin. There are probably some others ending in Shin. There's probably also a Kan. Ken is possible. (Matsudaira Ken is a stage name, though.) Kon Ichikawa.

For women, the o- pattern is all but dead. O-kon, O-gin, O-man, O-ran would have been common in the Edo period. I can't recall whether Kin-san and Gin-san, the hundred-year-old celebrity twins, went by their real names or not... Fg2 11:42, Sep 30, 2004 (UTC)

Kanemaru Shin. Also, for the otaku among us, Rurouni Kenshin... Sekicho 20:16, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)

Yes, Shin! And now that you mention it, Uesugi Kenshin.

There's Rin / O-rin (uncommon) and Karin (uncommon? moderate?) for girls. -- NatsukiGirl\^talk 09:57, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Koizumi Yakumo

As far as I know, Yakumo, written 八雲, isn't a traditional Japanese name, but rather a poetic construction. Anyone know? Exploding Boy 20:02, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)

I think you're right--I believe it's taken from a line in the Kojiki, in fact--yakumo tatsu Izu (the many-clouds rising Izu) or something. Googling that shows numerous hits on a manga character named Yakumo Tatsu also.

That's not a manga character but the name of a manga. It concerns Izumo history and makes use of the poem (which is about the founding of Izumo). See the Japanese poetry article for the text of the poem. Franzeska 13:45, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

re:Japanese Names in English--Books concerning comtemporary Japanese cultures like music

I think that the following category needs some further clarification, or maybe some subdividing: "Books concerning comtemporary Japanese cultures like music". From what I've seen, contemporary Classical musicians (that is Western classical music) usually are in GN-SN order, but for tranditional Japanese music, and also for J-Pop, I think that I've seen most of the names in SN-GN order. gK ¿? 05:40, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Title

Can someone please change the title of this article to "Japanese Names? The ungrammatical title really needs fixing, but I can't figure out how to do that. (comment from User:Squidley)

The name of this article should not be changed. If you look at Category:Names by culture, all the Wikipedia articles on how people are named in different cultures use the singular, such as Arabic name and Korean name. The same singular format is used for all the parts of a name, such as Given name and Family name. The reasons behind naming Wikipedia articles this way can be seen at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (pluralization). There is also a redirect for Japanese names for anyone who types that into the Search field. gK ¿? 07:09, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

OK, got it. Squidley

Would these be a good link for this page?

These are pages from a site I have developed that may be appropriate here. If you think they would be useful, please add them. (I am not a regular round here, so I want to run this past you guys to see what you think):

List of the top Japanese baby names (given names) from 1994 to 2003, including kanji (as graphics so user does not need Japanese fonts installed) with their pronunciation and meaning:

http://www.japanese-name-translation.com/site/japanese_baby_names.html

Brief information about Japanese names with a downloadable list of the top 500 family names by frequency:

http://www.japanese-name-translation.com/site/japanese_names.html

IMO The Baby name page looks okay, but the other page doesn't say that much so you have to do a download of the Excel file to get the most interesting information. I think that it would be better to see a Top 100 list of family names in HTML instead. Other editors might have different opinions, and one concern that some may have is the percentage of the page devoted to advertising. My rule of thumb is whether the primary intent of the page seems to be to get you to the page so you will see the ads (which happens way too often for external links on articles for different cities), so your webpages pass my rule of thumb. gK ¿? 04:05, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Good point about having say 100 top names in HTML. I could then have them as an image for people without J fonts, like on the baby names page.

I thought that it was interesting how my name "translated" into "Meet Encouragement Overwhelming Logic", although I assume with all of the homonyms in Japanese that there are probably other words that could be used. gK ¿? 10:55, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Yes, there are a number of kanaji that could be used. We have chosen kanji for their sound and meaning.

Please do not include any Japanese characters as images. It is very inconvenient to try to use those characters in other places. You can't cut & paste them, you can't search on them, you can't edit them or really do anything other than view them. Please use proper unicode for all the characters. It makes things easier for everyone. Thanks. --ChrisRuvolo 16:02, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Apologies for not being clear in my previous statement. I meant that I would use images on my own site so users without J fonts could see that characters.

Following the response from gk about the Baby Name page, I am going to add it to this article. I will not add the other page.

Possible deletion of List of Japanese given names

The List of Japanese given names article is up for deletion. If you have an opinion about its usefulness, please vote at Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/List of Japanese given names. Thanks. --ChrisRuvolo 03:22, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

re:

Ethnic Chinese and Koreans in Japan sometimes have to change the characters in their names to apply for citizenship, because of the restrictions on which kanji can be used

The restriction on kanji usage would be specific to given name and not family name?

oe

there is a japanese author by the name of oe. how do you write this name in kanji?

You might mean Ōe Kenzaburō. His name is 大江健三郎. 大江 is Ōe. Fg2 22:30, May 6, 2005 (UTC)

We should expand List of Japanese given names for this kind of inquiry.

dono

I have removed this from the article: "There is also the suffix -dono (-殿) which have been used mostly in legal documentations or other formal communications. However, the -dono suffix would only be used with surnames or full name, and never with only a given name." Is this ever true? I am curious. I have never seen dono in formal documents and dono for a surname, but a given name. Takuya-dono makes sense but murata-dono sounds quite awkward. -- Taku 11:51, May 24, 2005 (UTC)

Surname change/inheritance

Do Japanese women change their surname when they get married? Do kids inherit only father's surname? Saigon from europe 14:21, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

In most cases, women take their husband's family name as do their children. Occasionally however, men will take their wife's family name, particularly in cases in which the man is inheriting her family's business. The two cases of men taking their wife's name that I can think of are a former head of Nintendo, who married into the family line in the 40s or so, and Gendo Ikari, a fictional character from the anime Evangelion. Bear in mind though, that the concept of everyone having a family name only dates to the Meiji Era or so. Thus, a lot of how it works is patterned on the West. --Carl 14:48, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Of course, ten percent of the country (the samurai) had surnames, and the custom goes back to the beginning of internally recorded history in Japan, so they had a lot of precedent within the country too. Yes, kids take the father's surname. And the practice of adoption of a son-in-law by the father of the bride (a common pattern of adoption, but not the only one) to continue the family line has a very long past. Fg2 22:21, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

Naming Conventions

An article about names should include some information about how given names are chosen. Is it hidden in the article somewhere and I missed it? It's a very interesting subject.

• Kanji must be chosen from the approved government list, but the reading is free.
• Most names can be written in a number of different ways. Thus even for common names, the parents choose the kanji they like.
• A few parents do make up new names or choose unconventional readings.
• Many names are chosen after the baby is born.
• Many names reflect the parents' wishes, hopes or dreams.

typical for boys: strength, knowledge, virtue, fame, etc

typical for girls: beauty (美, mi, extremely common in girls' names), happiness, elegance, gentleness, etc

The wishes are sometimes more specific or have a story behind them (such as health for a premature baby).

• Names may reflect circumstances surrounding the child's birth, such as the season, flowers in bloom, or (in one case I encountered) the fall of the Berlin Wall.
• When choosing kanji, undesirable stroke counts are avoided.
• Parents may avoid kanji they think are ugly or difficult. Parents do not always consider meaning when choosing "pretty" kanji.
• Names sometimes include a kanji from a parent's name (usually the father's). I knew someone who was the 12th generation with the same kanji.
• The name may reflect the birth order of siblings (as mention in the article)
• In some cases the name may be chosen by the grandfather rather than the parents (this is a custom, not law).
• And, of course, sometimes people are named after famous people or even anime characters.

-ToothingLummox 11:43, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Removed from top of article

Proper names in Japan present a problem since virtually all Chinese characters used in names have a multiplicity of readings—both on readings, based on Chinese pronunciation, and kun readings, based on native Japanese words. Moreover, since most names are written with two or more characters, it is often impossible to be sure of the combination of readings needed in any particular case without having personal knowledge. Conversely, the same name element usually can be found written with a number of different characters. In the case of personal names, for example, more than 130 characters have 10 or more possible name readings, and the common name elements taka and nori are found written with 168 and 225 different characters, respectively. Since some characters and readings are much more common in names than others, it usually is possible to arrive at the likely reading of a name, and the number of characters available for use when registering the personal names of children is now limited by law. However, since there is no restriction on the readings that can be given to these characters, many uncertainties remain in all types of names.

I removed this from the top of the article, since it seems to have been added to the very top of the article without due consideration; it duplicates material described in the rest of the article. I thought of trying to integrate it, but the discussion of Chinese characters in Japanese names in the article is already extensive. --DannyWilde 02:32, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Shōji, macrons

I see that Shōji (東海林) links to the article on shoji, while the two have nothing in common.

Also, I think the use of macrons should be uniform throughout the article. Even though the practice in English is to ignore them, at least in such an article dealing with the names themselves (not the people bearing them) the correct form should be used. Otherwise the reader might think there is a phonetical reason behind the spelling difference. --AdiJapan 02:46, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

I fixed what I could, but I'm not Japanese and in any case I might have missed some instances. You might consider fixing mistakes yourself of course. Shinobu 18:13, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

I reverted Shōji as the more widespread reading for 東海林, although the dictionary has Tōkairin as an alternative reading also. What I meant above was that only the link was wrong. Also, Arudou Debito prefers to spell his own name with ou instead of ō (see the article on him), so I think we should keep that spelling here too, although we might consider stating that in the article. When I have more time I'll try and do the rest. Not a Japanese myself either though. --AdiJapan 00:49, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Is Shouji a more widespread reading for 東海林? That's odd. Does anyone know the etymology of this name? Shinobu 11:35, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

I suppose this is not exactly an encyclopedic answer, but I know a family named 東海林 (pronounced Shouji) and according to them it is widespread. Other possible readings for 東海林 are Toukairin and Shoushi (according to this dictionary: [4]). I don't have a source for name etymologies, but in this case it seems pretty straightforward: the Toukai woods, Toukai being the region of Aichi and Shizuoka (see Tokai region). There are many other names (and words) in Japanese that show little or no connection between the written form and the pronunciation, so Shouji shouldn't surprise you. For example 円谷 can indeed be read Entani as you can guess from the kanji, but the most widespread reading is Tsuburaya. Similarly, the name 早乙女 is most often read Saotome. The article on ateji should contain more examples, but I see it's still a stub. --AdiJapan 12:31, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

There are many other names (and words) in Japanese that show little or no connection between the written form and the pronunciation. Yes, but your examples aren't among them. 円 has a kun reading tsubu-ra (円ら), 谷 has a kun reading ya, so 円谷 is tsubura-ya; en and tani are on readings. For 早乙女, 早 has a kun reading sa, 乙 has a kun reading oto, 女 has a kun reading me, so 早乙女 is sa-oto-me. --Kusunose 04:38, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

I didn't mean to contest the widespread-ness, and I know the dictionary above and I know what ateji are; it's just that I'm interested. The etymology of the written form I can guess; it doesn't really yield an answer. Was there a family that was always called Shouji, that happened to be living in the woods near Tokai? Or where the woods always called Shouji? If so, why write Shouji down like this? Just some wild guesses, please don't take any of it seriously :-) Shinobu 18:06, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Many Japanese names are taken from place names, other source of Japanese names is profession. Accoding to some web pages[5] [6], there are people named 東海林 (Tōkairin) because of the place name; there are shōen called 東海林 (Tōkairin) in the Tōhoku Region. There are people named 庄司 (Shōji) because of thier profession; those who manage shōen are called 庄司 or 荘司 (shōji). Some Tōkairin who are shōji changed reading of their name to Shōji but retained their kanji. --Kusunose 05:11, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Wow! That's why I like etymology… Thanks! Shinobu 14:37, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Chan?

From the "Customs" section:

Many surnames originated from Chinese and Korean names. Examples are Kaneshiro (金城) (Chinese) and Chan (Korean).

It seems that Kaneshiro is a common surname in Okinawa, but I'm not sure whether it's from China. Is it common in China? And the second question is, is Chan a Japanese surname? I have never met or heard of a Japanese person with the name "Chan" and I can't imagine what kanji is used for it.

And "Many surnames originated from Chinese and Korean names"... here, I wonder how many the "many" stands for. The number of Chinese and Korean surnames (about 1,000 or so combined) are much fewer than Japanese ones (140,000).

Perhaps "a few" would be better? Shinobu 15:58, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Yamada Taro?

If Sato is the most common surname should the example be Satō Tarō? Garglebutt / (talk) 02:35, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't know. I think Yamada is a good example family name because it falls in a very common class of family names, but in principle any name would do. It's just an example after all. We could even have more than one example, if we would feel so inclined. Shinobu 15:32, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure, but I think the use of Yamada Taro is widespread in Japan, like John Doe in the US. Doe is not the most common surname in the US, but John Doe is the example nonetheless. I think Y.T is similar. Not that we have to use the same in the English Wikipedia --- but it makes sense. Fg2 21:22, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

If we had a reference for that, it would make a good addition to the article. Shinobu 16:25, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, according to various statistics on the web, neither Yamada nor Taro are the most common names, neither ranks within the top 10 in Meiji Yasuda Life Insurrance Co's stats, for example. Yamada Taro is chosen rather for its generic sound. I doubt there are many living Yamada Taro's, though, just like Mr and Mrs Doe would probably avoid naming their children John and Jane. Uly 11:47, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Trimmed "title" section

The "title" section was ridiculously long, and contained basically the same information repeated three or four times in different phrasings. I've cut it down to size: please don't go blindly reverting, because it is sometimes better for an article to get smaller rather than bigger. Since we have separate articles on Japanese titles and the Uchi-Soto distinction, we do not need to go into great detail on those subjects here! Also, WP:NOT a dictionary, so we don't need great long lists of words.

(And hello to our watchers on sci.lang.japan. Is Danny Ben still banned from editing Wikipedia due to his abusive behaviour? He seems to be spending a lot of time reading it...)

81.178.70.159 09:51, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

This Page in the News

In a recent article on The Register, a blog entry was mentioned that used this Wikipedia article as an example of a poor wikipedia page.

I'd like to see what his reasons are. He hasn't delved enough into them. WhisperToMe 00:33, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

He posted a reply explaining his position here: [7]. --ChrisRuvolo (t) 13:22, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Ishikawa

It would be more accurate to say that Ishikawa means "stone river", the literal translation, than "stoney brook". BethEnd 01:40, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi BethEnd, This is a wiki, and you can make changes like that right in the article. Improving accuracy is a good goal, and we welcome changes like that. When you make a change, you're welcome to add a comment like the one you made above, or you can simply type it in the Edit summary box (it's less work). Thanks for commenting on the article. Fg2 02:07, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Question about Saito

In the section "Difficulty of reading names" occurs the following paragraph:

An example of such a name is Saitō. While there are over 100 kanji that can be read as sai and over 200 kanji for tō, in this case, there are two common kanji for sai. The two sai characters have different meanings: 斉 means "together" or "parallel", but 斎 means "to purify". Confusing the two characters would be an embarrassing mistake.

Could someone clarify this. Does it mean there are over 100 kanji read as sai but only two that are used for this name? (In which case the number of kanji pronounced tō isn't relevent unless they can all be used with this name?) And why would it be embarrassing to mix up "parallel" with "purify"? They both seem like neutral or positive words. Tocharianne 02:45, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I warmly agree, and I'm about to make the requisite edit. -- Hoary 04:46, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I pulled out the obvious nonsense. The result, in context:

Some names also feature very uncommon kanji, or even kanji which no longer exist in modern Japanese. Japanese people who have such names are likely to compromise by substituting similar or simplified characters.

An example of such a name is Saitō. There are two common kanji for sai here. The two sai characters have different meanings: 斉 means "together" or "parallel", but 斎 means "to purify".

My reaction: Huh?

Here are a few relevant sai characters: 斎斉齊齋. I typed them in just now via a rather mediocre FEP (IME). They're all easy to type in (though the last pair are a bit tiresome to write formally). Anyway, the use of which character in place of which character is supposed to show what, exactly? -- Hoary 04:54, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Use of Surname's in speech

I've been watching the anime "The Melancholoy of Haruhi Suzumiya" and noticed that the narrator tands to refer to other characters by thier surname even when he knows them well. Is this common in Japan or is it meant to say something about the character?

The use of surnames is common, even with friends. First names aren't used as often as in the West. Tocharianne 23:27, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

3-character surnames

I originally wrote the claim in the article that says 3-character names are less common than 1 or 2-character surnames. Now, I am not sure about this. Until we get some source, we should remove this assertion. -- Taku 10:46, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Kaneko a personal name?

We read that Kaneko is a personal name as well as a family name. Is this true? I've never heard of it being used as a personal name. [cough] Is it possible that this was written by some gaijin, pardon me, non-Japanese individual, unaware of "Kanako"? Or is it me that's deluded? -- Hoary 04:57, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

We read: (For example Kaneko 金子, or Masuko 益子). Yes, how about Masuko? I don't recall ever having met somebody with the personal name Masuko, although my circle of acquaintances may be smaller than average. -- Hoary 10:44, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I have never met someone whose name is Kaneko 金子, or Masuko 益子 neither but as those name's construction is not unusual, I don't think possibility is zero. --Kusunose 14:18, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

With Google, I found someone whose given name is Masuko 益子 here. There may be someone whose given name is Kaneko 金子 as well. --Kusunose 14:20, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Here, someone claims he/she knows a person whose name is Kaneko Kaneko (金子金子). --Kusunose 14:25, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

But an isolated instance isn't the point. To list Moon Unit as an example of an American name, without describing it as uncommon or unusual, would be misleading. Is the given name Kaneko a whole lot more common than Moon Unit? Or does the article give it undue weight? Fg2 21:03, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I've found that 金子 かねこ is indeed a girl's name, though a very old fashioned one. Ditto for 益子 ますこ. Putting aside the matter of the kanji used for them, Haruna and Satomi are both surnames and girls' names. -- Hoary 13:39, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I think the most good example for the topic is Mayumi 真弓 (female's personal name). The case Kaneko and Masuko is not common and I don't feel natural.

Only one reading correct?

We read:

A name written in kanji may have more than one common pronunciation, only one of which is correct for a given individual.

This is not my area of expertise, but I believe that this is wrong.

Is the pronunciation written (via "ruby", etc.) in the koseki? I don't think it is. (I may be wrong.) If it isn't, then the correct pronunciation of a child's surname would be that preferred by the family. If the adult later decided that "Miyakawa" sounded cooler than the family's traditional "Miyagawa", she could call herself the former.

Hang on, no, it's more complex than that. I have a friend called 鎌田, Kamata. I'll call her Nami. (Her parents are Kamata too, not Kamada.) On rare formal occasions Nami has to declare that the pronunciation of her name is Kamada (which she dislikes). And presumably the roman-letter name in her passport is "Kamada".

Thus the pronunciation is not arbitrary. But even so, it's simplistic to say "only one [pronunciation] will be correct for a given individual". If you call Nami "Kamada-san" or "Miss Kamada", she'll politely "correct" you the first time, be pissed off if you continue. If however you have some power of attorney or anyway are picking up Nami's passport for her, "Kamata" will be wrong and "Kamada" correct.

Unvoiced alternatives seem preferred in Japanese; I suspect that Nami's case is common.

Now let's move on to personal names. My own interest is photography. 森山大道 is a famous photographer. It's clear from what's printed here and there that his name is to be pronounced "Daidō". But if you go back to the seventies, you'll see it printed as "Hiromichi". This is no mere fluke: 東松照明 is written to be pronounced "Shōmei", but early publications have it printed as "Teruaki". And I could give more examples, but don't want to labor the point. Question, though: Is it right to talk about a single correct reading for a name? I very much doubt it, but lack either the knowledge to improve this or the time/energy in which to find out for sure. -- Hoary 05:23, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree that names sometimes have multiple readings, and that an individual sometimes uses multiple pronunciations for his or her name without changing the writing, with voiced and unvoiced variations, or on/kun variations. My impression is that these aren't very common, but common enough that they're not curiosities. It's probably worth avoiding referring to "the" singular correct reading of a name, and acknowledging that some people have names that they read in multiple ways. Fg2 08:21, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the response.

Increasingly, I'm tending to think that the voiced/unvoiced and on/kun ambiguities are pretty common (the latter especially so among male literati). Like you, I don't want to make a big issue of it, but I'm sure it's worth mentioning, not least because the flat statement that there's a single reading contradicts what's said in a significant and growing number of articles that have templates pointing to this page. But how should one mention it most accurately?

As I'm too lazy busy to travel 100km to look up the koseki in which (yes!) I appear, I'd like to ask about a simple matter of fact: Does the koseki give the reading of the surname and/or personal names? (I asked th' missus, but she didn't remember.) -- Hoary 08:40, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

According to these pages form Oshiete! goo, koseki does not record readings, though till Heisei 6 it did for those who requested. And although Jūminhyō records readings, it's for data processing and not legal. --Kusunose 12:24, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

If this is indeed so (and right now I'm too sleepy/lazy to want to read the links you kindly provided), then for some people there is an (a) legally correct reading and for others there isn't. Most people have a (b) single pronunciation at any one stage (s) of their lives, and for most purposes we can regard (b_s) as correct; (b_s) may or may not be the same as (a) (if (a) exists). Gulp. Consider 東松照明: if his name has a legally defined reading (a), it's likely to be とうまつ てるあき (though I don't claim to know this for sure); but in any non-legalistic, non-perverse way, the real-world correct reading (b) has for the last forty-plus years been とうまつ しょうめい. And 東松's case is pretty routine, I think. -- Hoary 13:58, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

WP:FU

The comment below was originally posted on my talk page and brought here --Kusunose 07:40, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

"(diff) (hist) . . Japanese name‎; 11:53 . . (-389) . . Kusunose (Talk | contribs | block) (→Japanese names in English - removed Image:SugorokuMutou.PNG. It does not meet WP:FU)"

It is fair use. And, I have no free alternative in the context of "Sugoroku Mutou." Now, why don't you find me a replacement picture in the context of "Japanese names," and I will accept the removal of the picture? WhisperToMe 04:45, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

No, it is not. You can discuss "Sugoroku Mutou"'s name without a picture. To know how differently he is named in different media, readers do not have to know how he looks. It's just decorative. --Kusunose 07:40, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the point was that the characters' name was printed, in English, in that order (Didn't you notice the English-language text?) - the point was to illustrate the typical naming order used in English-language translated manga (Hey, manga is a visual medium, so it kinda makes sense to show a manga panel to illustrate this, doesn't it?). Either keep the image, or ask me to find a more suitable example (e.g. a page of a manga series listing characters by name) WhisperToMe 07:37, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

You don't need to "quote" an entire panel just for a text. In my opinion, that's excessive; just providing a citation is enough. By the way, the image lacks fair use rationale so it may be speedy deleted. --Kusunose 13:35, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Western middle names?

The page says that «middle names are not recognized in Japan in the Western sense». What are middle names in Western sense? There's no two identical, or even similar, "western" person naming traditions.

I suggest that the article is chnaged to something like: «Middle names are not recognized in Japan in the U.S. sense.» But then it would beg the question «Why should they?» and some troll might even add, for completeness sake, that:

«Patronymics are not recognized in Japan in the Slavic or Icelandic sense; hyphenated given names are not recognized in Japan in the French or Scandinavian sense; father/mother surname order is not an issue in Japan in the Spanish or Portuguese sense; "de" vs. "De" surname sorting issues are not relevant in Japan in the Belgian sense.» Etc. ;-)

The right thing to do is to remove the sentence altoghether. It is already explained that Japanese names typically consists of surname and given name: two words, nothing in the middle.

194.65.103.1 12:16, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

If the right thing to do is remove it, please do. See Wikipedia:Be bold. Fg2 12:42, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Ah, but the "middle name", if you have one, comes last in Japan. Bendono 13:25, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

References

Two references are poorly displayed (i.e., just the bracketed number), and one is omitted (#3). I do not know how to correct them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Skaizun (talk • contribs) 14:57, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Databases

In many databases, westerners typicly flip the order of the commonly used firstname, lastname format to make it lastname, firstnam. What format is used in japanise databases?