Talk:Suleiman the Magnificent

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Please do not edit archived pages. If you want to react to a statement made in an archived discussion, please make a new header on THIS page. Baristarim 01:00, 22 November 2006 (UTC) Archives: Archive 1 - Archived on November 22, 2006

POV

There are some serious POV issues with this article. Even his defeat at Vienna is listed under 'Military Achievements'.

I'm open to rewording. But the fact that the empire reached the borders of Central Europe was an achievement in itself. --A.Garnet 14:15, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Good article review

This article has been nominated for good article review. Baristarim 00:11, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Some ideas.

I came here from the GA page and I don't know anything about Suleiman, so reading this article was very interesting. I think it will be hard to be a GA without more references -- I would generally expect to see about one per paragraph, or at least one per subsection. If you have books about Suleiman that can be fairly simple to accomplish, just look in the index for the event and there you are.

Also, I think the lead could use some light copyediting. Here's what I would suggest:

Suleiman I (Modern Turkish: Süleyman; Arabic: سليمان‎ Sulaymān) (6 November 1494 – 5 September/6, 1566), was the tenth and longest-serving Sultan from the House of Osman of the Ottoman Empire, reigning from 1520 to 1566. Under his leadership, the Ottoman Empire reached its zenith and became a world power. Suleiman was also considered one of the pre-eminent rulers of 16th-century Europe; a respected rival to Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor (1519–56), Francis I of France (1515–47), Henry VIII of England (1509–47), and Sigismund II of Poland (1548–72). Suleiman personally led Ottoman armies which conquered Belgrade, Rhodes, and most of Hungary; besieged Vienna; and annexed most of the Middle East and territories of North Africa as far west as Morocco. Under Suleiman's rule, Ottomans achieved naval dominance in the Mediterranean Sea, Red Sea, and Persian Gulf, and the empire continued expanding for a century after his death.

Of course, you can take that or lump it! The most notable thing I'd change is that "Suleiman personally led" sentence, because having "led armies to conquer x,y,z" followed by "beseiged" -- well, it confused me when I read it.

Finally, the military campaigns seem a little stubby. If stuff could be merged or expanded I think that would be a good thing.

But all in all I think the main sticking point is the references. If the article had more proper references I think it would be a GA. Katsam 03:53, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Emperor Suleiman I organized 13 military campaigns during his reign and actually died in the beginning of the 14th one so people who contributed to the article possibly mixed some data and more badly skipped some important details. Also being the sole decision maker of one of the leading world powers of his time for over 40 years makes it hard to prepare an article which doesn't skip or mix many material. I'm personally waiting offers from other Wikipedians so we can discuss more efficiently here. See you, Deliogul 16:24, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

You should unwikilink the year dates, as it is just distracting otherwise and doesn't contribute anything. b_cubed 00:16, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

GA failed

This article has a lot going for it. But its copy is sometimes hard to read (I would recommend smaller sentences or at least fewer parenthetical clauses). It is also sort of "stubby." But the biggest issue it has is lack of references -- it's a very big article and should have more than 17 in-line references. I think with references and a light copy-edit, though, it would be a GA -- and it's very interesting! Katsam 01:59, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Restructure Military achievements?

I propose the conquests be divided into "conquests in Europe" and "conquests in Middle East and Africa". As it is, to expand each conquest on its own will mean talking more about each conflict as opposed to Suleiman himself. The way i propose a more general narrative can be given of the conquests without dividing the article into little stubs. I'd appreciate suggestions. --A.Garnet 16:20, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Having more sections is good. Deliogul 21:59, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Some sort of division, yes, and geographical seems simplest. Can I say "Well done!"? It's great to see references being added. This is a subject where Wikipedia should have a featured article. Thanks! Angus McLellan (Talk) 22:27, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for comments. Hopefully in time with a bit of work it can reach FA. --A.Garnet 00:41, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Featured article drive for WP Turkey

I took the liberty of replacing Turkey with this article for the WPTR Featured article drive in WPTR tasks page. It is nothing formal or anything :) So what do you think that needs to be done? ~~ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Baristarim (talk • contribs) 19:11, 13 January 2007 (UTC).

We need more links to some specific battles and campaigns. We also need more detail about international relations. Current article only features military conflicts. Deliogul 19:36, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Good, i was going to raise this article for a possible FA drive. I began more a less a complete rewrite of the Military achievements section, taking it away from the stubby feeling of before, still need to get round to Mediterrenean and North Africa to finish it. Deliogul is right about international relations, i thought to include a "diplomacy" section where we could highlight the various alliances and detentes with European powers and the role Suleiman had in shaping Europe. For the other sections, the biggest problem i personally have is sources. Talking about the military conquests is not that difficult since many general books about the Ottoman Empire cover them. However culutral and administrative changes under Suleiman require more specific literature on his reign which i do not have, except Andre Clot (which is on loan). Finally there is still much info to add, all of which will require some research from good sources. Need to expand administrative reforms (he is the law giver after all) and cultural achievements as well as the political intrigues by Hurrem Sultan and his relationship with Ibrahim Pasha. Thanks, --A.Garnet 20:54, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm trying to find sources for international relations but it seems like many people think that military conflicts and diplomacy are the same thing because in every link that I clicked, I saw Suleiman's conquests rather than the connections between the West and the Ottoman Empire during his reign. Maybe I should go to the university's library. Deliogul 22:50, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Islamic calligraphy

This section is not "directly" linked to the sultan himself. It is more related to the period, which is defined as "golden age". I'm proposing that anything that does not directly related to sultan should NOT be here; maybe under the culture of the Ottoman Empire? OttomanReference 21:24, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Personal items!!!

Is it possible to get the pics of his personal items? such as his kaftan, etc.. Hope someone has an access to these resources. --OttomanReference 23:52, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I found the picture of his sword.[1] The second sword from the bottom. See you, Deliogul 18:58, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Belgrade

We should create a stub for the Siege of Belgrade (1521). Lysandros 03:22, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

FA drive

I've placed some tasks above at the top. Would appreciate more users helping out, expanding the stubby sections and providing good sources. Cheers, --A.Garnet 21:08, 11 March 2007 (UTC) --Free smyrnan 16:31, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

article improvement drive

You can nominate the article for Wikipedia article improvement drive of the week here. Need 4 votes by March 30th. Perhaps we can place this somewhere prominent on the WP:Turkey, like an announcements section on the front page. Thanks, --A.Garnet 21:20, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Ibrahim Pasha

I think we must mention İbrahim Pasha's position better. According to the Ottoman tradition, Viziers had to govern a given territory before they could be selected as Grand Vizier but in İbrahim's case, Suleiman skipped that and directly made him his Grand Vizier. This shows us the political power of Suleiman above the traditional laws and makes it easier to explain İbrahim's fast fall-from-power in later years. Beylerbeyi title was given to İbrahim after he rose to power ;) Deliogul 08:02, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes of course he deserves more mention and he will get it in time. Did I not make clear he was made beylerbeyi after becoming Vizier? Anyway, feel free to edit this article yourself :) --A.Garnet 10:54, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

GA Review

There are are a few things that need to be done to make the article become GA status.

As it stands the article is lacking references in some areas. A good rule of thumb is that each paragraph must have at least one reference. Here are the places that they are needed.

• First and second paragraphs in 'Mediteranean and North Africa" need references.Y Done
• This sections in 'Cultural Achievements' needs a reference: Furthmore, in the city of Jerusalem, the rule of Suleiman and the following Ottoman Sultans brought an age of religious peace; Jews, Christians and Muslims enjoyed the freedom of religion that the Ottomans granted them and it was possible to find a synagogue, a church and a mosque in the same street. Dhimmi was enforced on the populace granting some freedoms and restricting others. - Removed, see below --A.Garnet 21:45, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
• First paragraph of the personal life section needs a reference.Y Done
• Last paragraph in succession section needs referencing. Y Done
• Last paragraph in legacy section needs a reference. Y Done

In addition, the citations have inconsistent formatting that needs to be fixed in order to follow one single style. Here are a few things that need to be done. Y Done

• All citations must have period at the end of them.
• You don't need to author's first name in the citations.
• Follow a consistent form of citation.

Another issue:

• This does not be quoted: "The earliest document, drawn up in 1526, lists 40 societies with over 600 members; by Sthe 17th century the number of societies had increased and their membership had risen to some 2,000. In addition to the artists employed in the imperial societies, in Istanbul, like all the major centers of the empire, had diverse guilds of artisans which catered to both domestic and foreign needs."

I would paraphrase this entire quote, as it really adds nothing to the article in its current format. Y Done

Besides these referencing issues, the article is very good, and fulfills all the other GA requirements. Zeus1234 15:58, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Zeus, thanks for your prompt review of this article. I hope my edits today meet your above suggestions. As for the Jewish related paragraph, I have chose to remove it since I do not believe it contributes to Suleimans cultural achivements, it was also one of those sections left behind since I began rewriting this article so it was always problematic in trying to get it to fit in. Thanks, --A.Garnet 21:45, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Just saying it, i found some books in my university's library written directly for Suleiman, i think they might be useful in further referencing and improving the article as it is said that there is such a need. Im going to check them myself, for anyone who might be interested in them:

-Suleiman, the Magnificent : Sultan of the East / by Harold Lamb, Garden City, N.Y. : Doubleday, 1951.

-Suleiman the Magnificent, 1520-1566 / by Roger Bigelow Merriman, Cambridge, Mass. : Harvard University Press, 1944.

-The zenith of an empire : the glory of the Suleiman the Magnificent and the law giver / S.Z. Ahmed. ISBN 0971587302 (pbk.) :

-Lords of the Golden Horn : from Suleiman the Magnificent to Kamal Ataturk / Noel Barber, London : Pan Books, 1976 ISBN 0330247352

-The government of the Ottoman Empire in the time of Suleiman the Magnificent / by Albert Howe Lybyer, London : Harvard University, 1913.

-Süleyman the Magnificent and the Ottoman Empire / by Miriam Greenblatt, New York : Benchmark Books, 2003. ISBN 0761414894

-The Grand Turke : Suleyman the Magnificent, sultan of the Ottomans / by Fairfax Downey, New York : Minton, Balch & Company, 1929. --laertes d 22:27, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Laertes, if more info can be added from those sources that would be a great contribution. Specifically, the areas I believe that need expanding are his early life, cultural and administrative reforms and relationship with Hurrem Sultan. Cheers, --A.Garnet 10:22, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I havent checked all the books in the list yet but i did some edits, in case you think some of them are rebundant they might be deleted...--laertes d 17:38, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Garnett, i think the parts you deleted do not harm the article as they mention about Suleımans knowledge and interes of antiquity, lıke his youth hero being Alexander or that he was ınfluenced by Aristotle..ı try to fit them into the article..--laertes d 14:01, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Relations with France

Suleiman wasn't a "respected rival" of Francis because the king of French was the only ally of the Ottoman Empire in the Western Europe. He was also depended on Suleiman because of his fragile power and surrounding rivals. Imho, we need to fix that part of the article. Deliogul 20:15, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

So nobody reads the discussion page? Deliogul 18:41, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Deliogul youre right actually but i think that wording "respected rival" is being used in the sense that eventually all these men were rivals to each other even though they may form alliances among themselves against others..no problem for me though if somebody change it..--laertes d 23:05, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Reared in Crimea?

Older sources claim that "Suleiman had been governor of Kaffa while his grandfather Bayezid was alive".[2] If true, this fact certainly should be reflected in the article. --Ghirla^-трёп- 20:12, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

There's an edition of Fisher's 1948 Foreign relations of Turkey 1418-1512 available through the Electronic Journal of Oriental Studies at Utrecht uni. The relevant part is chapter 8, which deals with 1511-1512. On p.98 (=p. 4 of the pdf), Fisher states that Suleiman governed Kaffa in 1511 (?from 1510 the year of Korkud's return?). Governor for two years =/= "reared in Crimea". Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:01, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Nevertheless, the article should reflect in some way that Suleiman served as governor of Kaffa/Crimea/whatever the technical term for the territory was. Lord Kinross's The Ottoman Centuries also mentions that he was governor there (saying specifically Crimea), while suggesting that Suleiman was partially responsible for the army assembled by his father there during his bid to replace/oust Bayezid and outmaneuver Ahmed. If someone can find further corroboration of this, it would make a wonderful addition to the early section of the article. 204.52.215.69 16:01, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Ghirla already add that he was governor there to the article. The Fisher piece should have a bibliography and some of the Turcophone editors may be aware of sources which deal in depth with the war. Angus McLellan (Talk) 20:37, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Congratulations on FA status

FA

Many congratulations to all concerned with bringing this article up to FA. Thoroughly deserved. --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 10:39, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks to all editors who contributed. --A.Garnet (talk) 15:17, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Great job. Congratulations. CeeGee (talk) 19:09, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Nice article

I don't often get sucked in to read FA articles when they are on the front page, but this one managed it. Really nice read and very interesting part of history. Thanks to those who wrote and worked on this article. Carcharoth (talk) 00:48, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Lock

Lock the article to prevent the ongoing vandalism efforts please. W3bu53r (talk) 15:42, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Legacy

S was a pivotal Turkish Leader. His predecessors were nomads who lived in tents ( Selim I would not sleep in a city and died in his tent). S became the first to live in Istanbul. The article does not emphasis enough the legal structure and administrative structure created by S. While the west looked at him with fear, his legacy is mostly in the creation of systems that would carry the Empire until World War I. As a student of S, I have had the impression that he used the Chinese Empire for an administrative model, but have not found any evidence of this. Unfortunately for posterity, S created systems that were easily corrupted. Thus the Janissarys who were the bulk work of the Sultans, became the main corrupting entity. S's apparently humane treatment of Hurrem Sultan, led to relaxation of draconian rules for the harem that led to the Harem being another corupting influence. Hurrem Sultan's intrigues leading to the death of S's Mustafa is an immediate corruption of the principal of reward for performance.

Another issue is the Sultan's relationship with Islam. The Ottoman Sultan's adopted Islam in order to control the Arabs. Selim I took on the title of Calif to better control the followers of Islam, especially the Arabs. S, in codifying the laws of land, raised the importance of Islamic law in the Empire. Still, we can see that Turkish Islam is different from the mainstream Arab sects of Islam.

Inclusion of conquered people was a pillar of the S's conquests. This practice strengthened the Empire and conversely lack of it weakened the European's ability to deal with the Ottoman's. Toward the end of the Empire, corruption had undermined tolerance and resulted in the loss of support from many of the subject peoples.

All this said, S is the most recognized Sultan in the west and was equaly imprtant to the Empire. Not until Attaturk do we see great reforms and restructuring accomplished by S.

Saltysailor (talk) 01:32, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

CONSTANT VANDALISM - PLEASE LOCK EDITING NOW

Lock it now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Beamathan (talk • contribs) 02:34, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Mhm, agreed. Baseballbaker23 (talk) 04:44, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Congrats for the writers for making this a featured article.

Congrats for the writers of this article, it seems it's very nicely done. Thank you for the wealth of information. — ^talk § _Arsenic99_ 03:46, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

"Exhibition" section

The following section was added today under the title "Exhibition of masterpieces from his era":

More than 130 masterpieces from the Topkapi Palace Museum and national museums in Istanbul and, some other objects lent by European, Middle Eastern, and American museums and collections as well were on display in three art museums in the USA for a total time of almost one year in 1987-1988:

• January 25-May 26, 1987 (extended from May 17) - National Gallery of Art, Washington D.C.
• June 14-September 7, 1987 - Art Institute of Chicago
• October 4, 1987-January 17, 1988 - Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York

At the exhibition titled "The Age of Sultan Suleyman the Magnificient", 55 kaftans, embroideries, and rugs; 51 ceramics and tiles; and 40 imperial items of gold, silver, and rock crystal embellished with gems; along with 68 illustrated books and manuscripts were shown.

I don't know if this information warrants its own section. The exhibition was over twenty years ago and there doesnt seem to be much here which is relavant to Suleiman himself. I understand the good intention of editors, but if new sections are to be added on the day it is FA they should be carefully considered. Regards, --A.Garnet (talk) 10:43, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Turban

I know this is a random question but my mind boggles at the turban S. is wearing in that Titian portrait. Is that enormous onion-shaped thing supposed to be a realistic depiction of something he would actually wear on his head? If so, what exactly is giving it its shape? If it were entirely composed of wrapped cloth, I would think that it would be too heavy for the poor man to hold his neck up! --Jfruh (talk) 13:33, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

"I have a cabbage...I mean onion...for a head!" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.5.235.198 (talk) 15:20, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I had the same question when I saw it. Perhaps Europeans over-exaggerated these types of things when they painted them, because they didn't quite understand them. Just an idea.--Eva ^bd 15:53, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

From Turban#History_of_turbans: "Probably the largest-ever Turbans were worn by high-ranking Turks of the Ottoman period, including soldiers. These were enormous round turbans, wrapped around a hollow cone or framework, that often projected at the top... Suleiman the Magnificent was renowned for the size of his turban."

So its not an exaggeration and is probably not that heavy given that it is just a wrapped hollow frame. 128.227.99.215 (talk) 17:09, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Much obliged.--Eva ^bd 19:55, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Title below picture

Someone hacked this article and wrote spam under the picture appearing at the top. I tried to change it but apparently the changes made were not found in the code. Someone please change it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.127.199.123 (talk) 15:37, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Reverted text due to vandalism

Reverted to previous version due to vandalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.250.2.10 (talk) 15:55, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

NO SOURCE

This main image has no source information. Source information must be provided so that the copyright status can be verified by others. Remove it! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.214.44.134 (talk) 16:52, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

You think that something that was obviously painted in the 1500s still has a viable copyright claim? Wow, talk about copyright paranoia! Anyway I think the external link at the bottom answers any attribution or source questions. 128.227.99.215 (talk) 17:13, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

How do you know it's painted in the 1500s? external link not a Wikipedia:Reliable Sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.214.44.134 (talk • contribs)

Are you volunteering to personally go to the Kunsthistorisches Museum, Schloss Ambras and verify that the picture is there then? 128.227.97.18 (talk) 18:55, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Any Wikipedia:Reliable Sources says it is there? I'm ok with Wikipedia:Reliable Sources.

[3] 128.227.97.18 (talk) 19:05, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

SUCH A TERRIBLE source! says the image is (C) Bridgeman Art Library. can't be worse. better research here User_talk:Antandrus#NO_SOURCE. but still could be forgery. no one is sure. is better remove it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.214.44.134 (talk) 20:04, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Is better(sic) you sign your posts. 128.227.97.18 (talk) 20:43, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Ad hominem. You prefer address my bad English instead of Wikipedia Policy. Comment on content, not on the contributor. Keep you image. I no longer care. :'(