Talk:Deutschlandlied

suggested cut

Suggest cutting all this " An artist was invited to perform the national anthem a cappella at the opening ceremony of the new Allianz Arena stadium in Munich in June 2005. German singer Sarah Connor made two mistakes, though. In anticipation of the later brüderlich (brotherly) and possibly impressed by the floodlight, instead of "Blüh im Glanze dieses Glückes" (Prosper in this fortune's blessing) she sang "Brüh im Lichte dieses Glückes" (Boil in the light of this fortune). In June 2006 at the same stadium, the proper refrain was spontaneously sung by the crowd during the first half of the FIFA World Cup 2006 playoff game to express joy about the early 2:0 lead of Germany over Sweden, possibly the first ever use of this refrain in such circumstances." because it's really not interesting.

The first two stanzas of the Deutschlandlied

The first two stanzas of the Deutschlandlied are actually not legally forbidden. But they are not the national anthem !!! (as national anthem they are forbidden !) see here:

http://www.bundesregierung.de/Regierung/Nationalhymne-,9200/Geschichte-und-Entstehung.htm

Only the third stanza is the National Anthem!

People singing all stanzas of the Deutschlandlied as the national anthem are in Germany mostly considered as right wing extremists!

So the first 2 stanzas of the Deutschlandlied have nowadays nothing to do with the German national anthem. 1945 The Allies forbade the whole Deutschlandlied

1951 The third stanza was allowed as National anthem again

1990 the highest German court (Bundesverfassungsgericht) declares the third stanza finally as legal!

Can you clarify this? In what respect did the BVerfG declare is as legal? 141.3.165.118 13:03, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

No, this is wrong. The song was totally legal before and the german chancelor and the president made it the official anthem of the reunified germany in 1991.

They made the 3rd stanza the official anthem (as opposed to the whole song as before). Please read the two exchanges of letters. JensMueller 10:01, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

---

with kind regards bender

Verboten to sing the first two stanzas

pardon me, but a 'das lied der deutschen' is totally unknown in germany. the name of the song is 'deutschlandlied' and actually is the third stanza (stave,strophe) the german national Anthem. furthermore is it forbidden to sing the first two stanza, which includes former borders to germany. my mother is born in austria and told that this song was also the austrian national anthem with of course different words. with other words ' IT IS FORBIDDEN IN GERMANY TO SING "deutschland über alles", cause it belongs to the first stanza. [unsigned comment]

No, this is an Urban Legend. It is not forbidden in Germany to sing the first two stanzas.

--Eberon 19:03, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

it is highly inappropriate but not forbidden to sing the first 2 stanzas. The original Title of the song was "Das Lied der Deutschen (Deutschlandlied)" Deelkar 04:57, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

"Highly inappropriate" is an exaggeration. A part of the population (depending on political viewpoint) finds it inappropriate to sing the first stanza. The second stanza offends nobody. --134.147.122.162 11:04, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know(and I am german) it is forbidden by law to sing the first two stanzas in public. SO it is not just highly inappropriate but actually really against the law.

Well, what can I say? You are mistaken. Arbor 12:22, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Why am I mistaken?prove that.As far as I know the allies decla red the stanzas to be illegal in 1945 and this was never declared to be invalid.

All allied declarations to that effect (if they ever existed), became null and void with German independence.

i'm also from germany and it's forbidden to sing 'deutschland über alles'. i'm not sure which stanza this is, but the other one and the third one are not forbidden. but noone sings another stanza than the third one.

Would you believe that it is not forbidden to sing the first two stanzas if a German judge said so? If you do, please listen: It is NOT against the law, it is not "forbidden". As said before it is highly inappropriate and in most cases an expression of a jingoistic attitude. --Psynus 22:04, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

It's not forbidden to sing the first stanza and the name "Lied der Deutschen" does exist. Everything that that Austrian ignorant said is wrong. "Mein Kamp" is forbidden and swastikas are. That's about all. Yeah, the combination SS in a number plate is forbidden too.

"Mein Kampf" is not forbidden. See Mein_kampf#Current_availability —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hanszarkow (talk • contribs) 16:50, August 28, 2007 (UTC)

THE FIRST TWO STANZAS ARE NOT FORBIDDEN BUT THEY ARE UNOFFICIAL

First let me say that most Germans I know consider the FIRST stanza as at least inappropriate, although describing historical borderlines. It is easy to understand why people in- and outside of Germany might have a problem with referring to these geographical informations as "Germany".

The SECOND stanza is, in my opinion, much more fitting for some drinking song than for a national anthem.

Since 1991 (following an exchange of letters between the then sitting German President and the then German Chancellor) is the official German anthem. Although this just made official the common practice of using the THIRD stanza as unofficial German anthem since 1949.

What some people ran into problems with were dissuations (can anyone offer a better translation for the German word "Abmahnung" LEG) to webmasters of internet pages which for some legitimate reason quoted the complete text of the Deutschlandlied. They sometimes were accused of promoting nazi ideology, which would be illegal in Germany. Sometimes the dissuations were issued because of the contents of the webpage itself, but most cases I recall were because of offensive guestbook entries which the webpage operator had not removed soon enough. Also there were some problems with materials which the webpages linked to. After all it was a game of "CONTEXT IS KING" which some organisation in my oppinion misused and thereby helped to create this myth.

CONCERNING CAR TAGS: It is common practice not to issue tags which have the letter-combinations HJ, NZ, KZ, NS, SA, SS on them.

Maybe it would be good to explain a little bit about the structure of a German tag for people from outside Germany? OK, the tags are separated into three areas. Altogether there can be no more than eight digits on a tag. The first section has one (big city or county) to three (smaller county) letters which refer to the issuing county. These are followed by one or two letters which are random by default but can be chosen for a small fee. These two letter are used as initials many times. Should somebodies initials incidentially be the same as one of the above combination, he would have to maybe reverse them (if possible) or think of something else. The third part has one to four numbers which may also be selected if desired (often used for birthyears or similar). FYI: There are some special rules for tags for official vehicle, police cars and military vehicles which i intentionally left out as they are not helpful in this regard.

CONCERNING SWASTIKAS: Although the display of Swastikas is a sure thing to run into legal trouble, it is not forbidden to use! It becomes forbidden as soon as it is used in a context that could be seen as promoting nazi ideology. As I can't imagine many other ways to wisely use a swastika for that leaves the use for documentation and of course in movies and such. If the use of a swastika would be illegal, the Movie "Indiana Jones 3" would probably eb thirty minutes shorter here in Germany and very hard to follow.

CONCERNING MEIN KAMPF: Basically the same as with the swastika, but with the added issue that the state Bavaria holds the copyright to this book until 2015 and intentionally suppresses any new editions in Germany (in my opinion with good reason). The question is: Who would want to read this book? The answer comes back as: nazis and historians. I think its a good thing that the first group is kept away from that book, but I think it is important that the second continues to have access to this book. It remains to be seen if the will be a law by 2015 which regulates the use of Mein Kampf.

mindbender 80.140.26.52 23:59, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for all your clarifying statements. This is so annoying, all these people believing what they talk about in the pub or hear in television ... The translation for "Abmahnung" is cease-and-desist letter. JensMueller 03:02, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

As a native German and a scholar of social science: No part of the German anthem is forbidden, anybody who claims different should please provide some evidence for his or her claim (e.g. official sources such as the German Federal Ministry of Interior). However, in practice most people only sing the third stanza. The first line of the first stanza is mostly perceived as being offensive, a view that simply neglects the historical context of the anthem (the unification of all German states was highly popular after the Napoleonic Wars; "Deutschland, Deutschland über alles" simply refers to the dream of unification and not of some German superiority (although our beer is not too bad ;)). The book MEIN KAMPF is easy accessible in most libraries. It is NOT forbidden to own but to buy it (and most Nazis surely know how to download a German copy of the text from one of the various American racist organizations). Everything that was said about car tags is right. Nevertheless, the Nazis simply changed to numbers (e.g. 18 for A(dolf) H(itler) or 88 for H(eil) H(itler)). Hope this could bring some clarity in the discussion! Regards, Enrico

I´m from Germany, too, I´ve asked a german lawyer: You CAN sing the first stanza from the "Lied der Deutschen", but NOT in the public!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.15.197.213 (talk) 18:03, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Why it should be forbidden to sing it in public? Because some stupid people here just cannot understand that it has nothing to do with the dirty Nazis that brought down this country 60 years ago? If you think about to be "political correct" you can change the names of the rivers in the song - so it makes since again. The dirty Nazis just abused the first stanza, because you can misunderstand the line "Deutschland, Deutschland über alles". But what they say today about it, is absolutly rediculious. It is a shame that one party destroyed so much in only twelve years in Germany. --89.27.213.44 (talk) 00:22, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I have some comments concerning the above remarks by "enrico" and "anonymus": First Enrico: Please try to see the difference between the German anthem and the song Deutschlandlied! The German anthem consists solely of the third stanza of the original, unamended text of Fallersleben's Deutschlandlied. Only this third stanza enjoys the legal protection that is provided for Germany's national anthem. Second Anonymus: I actually had written quite a bit concerning your post, but then figured that the words: "JUST TOTALLY INCORRECT!" would be the most fitting for your submission! RednebdniM 02:26, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

English names for the geography of Germany

The straits between Norway and Denmark that are approximately East-West are called "Skagerrak" in English. Where the same ocean then bends south and follows the coast of Denmark, it is called "Oresund". I'm not aware of an English name for it once one leaves the Oresund, until one reached the Gulf of Riga to the east or the Aland Sea to the north between Sweden and Finland. -- Paul Drye

What do "Memel" and "Belt" refer to?

I don't know the English names for "Memel" and "Belt"... The "Memel" is a river in the Baltic, "Belt" is the German expression for the part of the North Sea between Germany and Sweden.[unsigned comment]

Actually, that would have to be the Baltic Sea, as pointed out by User:Derek Ross on the belt disambiguation page. :-) • Benc • 09:49, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Maas to the memel=the meuse in holland to the memel near Kaliningrad, etsch to the belt=border of the austrio-italian alps to the former holstein border in denmark, which marked out all 40 german states, including austria/ancient german settlements of bohemia and movaria-before the slavs eventually took it over (modern day czechoslovakia) and all of the Imperial germany's borders 1871-1918. [unsigned comment]

Memel is the same in English, or at least that's how it's named in The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich which I consulted. Belt doesn't seem to be mentioned there. --Dmerrill

Okay, from the above comments we have two alternate definitions of "Belt". (1) the Baltic Sea between Germany and Sweden; or (2) the former Holstein border, near Denmark. Geographically, this is more or less the same area. But if anyone has a definitive answer, please update the Belt page accordingly. Thanks. • Benc • 09:49, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Question withdrawn. An anonymous contributor provided the answer: the Little Belt. • Benc • 04:46, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

There don't seem to be any sources cited there. Note that there is also the Fehmarn belt as another candidate. Prumpf 06:47, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Fair enough. I just assumed that since 217.228.67.219 is a German IP, the contributor knew what s/he was talking about. Needless to say, though, if anyone has a contradicting source, edit away. :-) • Benc • 07:07, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

de:Belt - "Belt (dän. Bælt) ist ein veralteter Begriff für die Ostsee" -> "Belt is an old term for the Baltic Sea"

that is true, but the anthem means the Kleiner Belt (Small Belt), between Jutland and Funen. see: Little Belt --Tresckow 01:30, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Source of the music

The music was taken from the Kaiser quartet, 1797 by Hayden. -P von stasser

Song name: "Deutschland Über Alles" vs. "Das Lied der Deutschen"

Das Lied der Deutschland is another name for Deutschland uber alles, both are the same song. Or it is referred to Das Deutschlandleid. Officially it is Das Lied der Deutschland, but Deutschland über alles is most commonly used. It is too bad that my country can not use this song, like France says "viva la france" and US uses from sea to shining sea, are we not allowed to express nationalism like other countries? nice website you have here. [unsigned comment]

Hmmm, without the music to go along with the lyrics, I may be mistaken, but isn't this song commonly referred to as "Deutschland Uber Alles" in English? I've never heard the name "Das Lied der Deutschen" before. Or are they different songs that just share those three words in their lyrics?

If it's the same song, with the name changed for obvious reasons post-WWII, that should probably be mentioned in the history of the song. A redirect might be useful too -- certainly if someone had asked me before reading this article what the German national anthem was I'd have answered "Deutschland Uber Alles"; it'd have taken me approximately 47 billion more guesses to come up with "Das Lied der Deutschen" -- Paul Drye

The song is called "Das Lied der Deutschen". The first verse starts with "Deutschland Deutschland über alles". This verse is not officially part of the anthem anymore. When Germans sing the national anthem, they only sing the third verse of the Deutschlandlied: "Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit...". --AxelBoldt

Yes, I understand that. What I mean is "At some point in the past was Das Lied der Deutschen entitled or popularly known as Deutschland Uber Alles, or are they two different songs?" If the former, in my opinion a note about the name change is necessary. As written, the article implies that the song was called Das Lied der Deutschen as soon as it stopped being a hymn to Emperor Franz. -- Paul Drye

This implication is correct. The three stanzas given in the main article were always called "Das Lied der Deutschen" or "das Deutschlandlied". Maybe some people colloquially refered to it as "Deutschland, Deutschland über alles" when that part was still sung. There is only one song and its name has never changed. [unsigned comment]

Hm! I've learned something new today. Before this discussion I would have sworn the song was named after the first line of the original first stanza. If anyone else from the English-speaking world is reading along, is that just me, or is it a common misconception for English speakers? -- Paul Drye

Dunno, Paul -- Personally, I know I thought of it as Deutschland über Alles in a WWII sense, but only in that context. I'm not sure I ever thought it was the actual title, though...maybe because I tend to mix it up with a couple of hymns, anyway -- of course, I also want to sing O Canada to the tune of Tannenbaum! US Americans probably do think of it as DUA, though...not realizing that 'über' doesn't mean 'over', but rather 'above', in the sense of 'more than'. As my kid (raised speaking German) used to say -- i love chocolate above all candy! JHK

In Germany it is always or (nearly always) referred to as "Das Deutschlandlied". Singing or using the first stanza is widely viewed as an expression of right-wing political views or outright nazism. Kosebamse 11:36 Jan 29, 2003 (UTC)

The tune appears in many English hymn books under the name "Austria", though I've forgotten what words go with it. There's a fairly well-known story of a number of German prisoners of war who were attending church one Sunday in WW2 who were astonished when the organist started playing the tune! -- Arwel 03:12 Mar 27, 2003 (UTC)

In the Broadman hymnal and other hymnals used in evangelical churches in the U.S., the tune is referred to as "Austrian Hymn". There are several hymns which use the tune, the most familiar (to English speakers) is commonly known as "Glorious things of thee are spoken". 23:07 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Common misconception, Paul. It was officially titled 'Das Lied der Deutschen' by Heinrich Hoffmann von Fallersleben (1798-1874) when he wrote the words in 1841 to the 1798 tune by Joseph Haydn (1732-1809). The song appears as Nr 118 in the monumental 2-volume Volksliederbuch für Männerchor, edited under the general direction of the then-elderly scholar Freiherr Rochus von Liliencron (1820-1912), and published under the auspices of the Kommission für das Deutsche Volksliederbuch (Leipzig, C.F.Peters, 1906).

According to the annotation, Haydn composed the tune to be the national anthem of Austria after being impressed on a visit to London by how deeply the English were moved by 'God Save Great George the King'. He fitted his newly-composed tune to the words of the poem 'Gott Erhalte Franz den Kaiser', written the year before by L.L.Haschka.--MMT

As noted, this article needs to be more clear about the status of the name "Deutschland über alles" is. I too have only known the song by that name. If this is mistaken, the article should make some note of that, because it is a very common perception. Sylvain1972 15:04, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Some changes to the introduction later: Is it clear now? The problem really is that of claiming that the song is "known as" XY outside Germany. That's a grand claim. I have several English-language musical reference works, and none of them uses anything else than Deutschlandlied or Lied der Deutschen. So it is not known as Deutschland über alles in the anglosphere—or is it? Does the vox populi decide, or do the cognoscenti? To turn it around, I am pretty sure that most Germans would know the U.S. hymn only as Oh! Say can you see! (at best!). Does this warrant a change to the introduction of Star-spangled banner? ("... known as Oh! Say can you see! outside the U.S....") Tongue planted firmly in cheek, do we want Billy Jean to include (also known as Fettucine at my door).

To sum up: I am all for addressing a common misconception. The problem is to make correct and verifiable the claim "... often referred to as ...", and make NPOV the claim "... but this is wrong". Which it is, but WP is not a usage guide. Arbor 07:00, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

I think the introduction is fine as it stands. I can assure you that the song is widely known in the anglosphere as Deutschland über alles, and although that may be incorrect, the article should acknowledge that. Especially since Deutschland über alles redirects to this article. Regarding your analogy, I think you need to keep in mind that this is the English-language wikipedia entry. If most Germans only know the Star-spangled banner as Oh! Say can you see!, then that is indeed a very appropriate thing to note in the German-language article about it. Sylvain1972 13:31, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Germans would rather know the Starspangledbanner as "The land of the free and the home of the great". If they know it at all. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.52.165.221 (talk) 10:43, 1 February 2007 (UTC).

Omission of the first verse: excessive political correctness

I think the omitted first verse of 'Das Lied der Deutschen' is one of the first victims of political correctness. 'Deutschland über Alles' quite clearly refers to love of country above all things, and not to any political or territorial aspirations. [unsigned comment]

The song is often called Deutschland ueber Alles, simply because those are the opening words of the first stanza. It is virtually unknown today that the expression "über alles", or "before all [others]" refers not to the conquest or enslavement of other countries or the establishment of German hegemony over other peoples, but rather to a call for all Germans to abandon their concept of being a subject or citizen of this or that principality or region (such as Bavaria or Prussia) and to realize the common bond they had with one another by simply being German. This concept was considered "revolutionary" at the time the words were written in 1841, since loyalty to "Germany" was considered by the princelings and kings of the disunited Reich (divided into 40-plus separate states) to be disloyalty to themselves. This "All-German" idea was suspect because it was also associated with the rising middle classes and their suppressed Frankfurt assembly of 1848. [unsigned comment]

Some additional information to be included in the article

Some of this my be worth to be included in the article.

• If I (as a German) was asked on the street, what the name of the anthem was, I would answer with "Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit". "Deutschland über alles" is a name only in so far, as it is common to refer to a piece of lyric by its first verse. "Deutschlandlied" and "Lied der Deutschen" are both understandable.
• "Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit" was printed on the german DM-coins and is now printed on the Euro coins (and is the state motto).
• The hymn of the GDR was "Auferstanden aus Ruinen" (Risen form Ruins). Informally called after its composer the "Becher-Hymne". The text was made to match the composition of the Deutschlandlied. Becher made a composition matching the text of Auferstanden aus Ruinen. Consequently both hymns can be sung on both compisitons.
• Shortly after reunification Wolf Biermann made the "Kinder-Hymne" (hymn of the children) that also matches DL and AAR. This was meant as an better alterneative.

[unsigned comment]

Actually, the Kinderhymne was not written by Wolf Biermann but by Bertolt Brecht with the music also done by Eisler. ::Helge Philipp (talk) 15:47, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

"Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit" is actually not printed on Euro coins, the german Euros just have the Bundesadler or the oak seedling/sapling on the back. --Deelkar (talk) 03:26, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

actually the 2 Euro coins do have the Motto printed along the edge, and i'ts an oak twig. :) --Deelkar (talk) 03:31, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• there is no law and no passage in the constitution (Grundgesetz) at all about this song, neither to make it the Anthem nor to forbid singing of the first 2 stanzas. The Bundespräsident R.v. Weizsäcker and Bundeskanzler H. Kohl (Chancellor) speaking for the government agreed on keeping the customary 3rd stanza as hymn. (August 1991) publicised in the Bundesgesetzblatt 19 Nov 1991, (BGBl. I S. 2135) --Deelkar 05:24, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Reasons for reversion (2 June 2004)

I've reverted the previous contribution since it adds some factually inaccurate statements. In particular, no nation called "Austria-Hungary" existed in 1797; that was a later historical development. The revision also implied that Haydn was writing what he thought was a national anthem; this is also not correct, as the song was only made into an official anthem after Haydn's lifetime. The other change was the claim that Fallersleben wanted a united Germany to include Austria. I think it would be fine to include this (reverting my reversion), but only if the person who wrote this can say what his/her factual source is. Suitable sources might include a biography of Fallersleben, a collection of his letters, etc. Thanks, Opus33 19:00, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Haydn and Austria

"Haydn wrote it because he had been requested to provide a patriotic song for Austria, his native country. The words provided to Haydn were "Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser" ("God preserve Franz the Emperor"), Franz being at the time the reigning Austrian emperor Francis II." -- I changed this for two reasons:

1. Francis II was not Austrian Emperor in 1797. He became so only in 1806. In 1797, he was Holy Roman Emperor, King of Germany, and Archduke of Austria. See the article on Francis II, Holy Roman Emperor. In fact, "Gott erhalte..." does not mention Austria at all, but it does mention "German lands" in the last stanza.
2. Strictly speaking, Austria was not yet a country, but a state of the Holy Roman Empire.

In summary: The whole discussion about the tune being Austrian is pointless, because in 1797, Austria was a part of Germany; and while there was no Germany in 1841, Austria was still a member of the German Confederation at the time. --Chl 02:44, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Austria was a 'nation' long before that, if not politically, then definetely culturally. It just wasn't an empire until 1804. Just look at the Austria page and her history. It was sign of patriotism to Austria, as was common at the time due to the threat of Napoleon.. the page on 'Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser' mentions all this and more. Are you attempting to nullify the fact that this is an Austrian tune? It doesn't matter anyway because Austria introduced a different national anthem as she (a) didn't want an anthem which had been so extensively used by the Nazis and (b) (later on) to distinguish herself as an independant nation, separate from Germany.

But Austrians such as Mozart, Grillparzer etc. regarded themselves as Germans, so there was no real Austrian nation as you declare. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.145.180.185 (talk) 19:51, 19 December 2006 (UTC).

Midi File

I live in germany and think, that you did a veeery good job on this article, espacially writing down _two_ possible interpretations of the first stanza's beginning. In fact, only a very small share of people would ever think the "united germany" interpretation could be right, but in fact it is quite probably that it is. Thanks propaganda & WWII :-(

The only thing i would like to remark is, and i'll do that in the german version of this article, too, that the hymn is not quite good represented by .mid file, because there's too much drum etc. in it. It would be better if it sounded like one of the following .mid files http://ingeb.org/Lieder/deutsch2.mid http://www.spiegel.de/media/0,4906,45,00.mid

Surely it would not be illegal to use an ogg vorbis file? I would very much like to hear a good-quality version. Even if national anthems are copyrighted (which would be ridiculous), surely this constitutes fair use?

In need of attention – what?

This article claims to be in need of attention, and I am happy to provide some. What are perceived as the major problems? I compared to the German article, which is somewhat more polished, but the English "version" has no major omissions or problems I can see.

Except maybe the following paragraph.

In the light of German military aggression and nationalist furor during World War II, it was easy to infer a sinister intent behind the exhortation to a "Deutschland über Alles", and the words were so exploited in Allied propaganda. The song still rings with menace today in the ears of some. Many would agree that, however valid the propagandists' interpretation may have been in regard to the Nazis, it does not reflect Fallersleben's original intentions.

I am not a native English speaker, so the "sinister intent" needs to be spelt out for me. Maybe for others as well. Would a native English speaker be able to distinguish "Deutschland über Alles" ("Germany above all") from "Deutschland überall" ("Germany everywhere")? Is that the implied sinister intent? Or is there another mistranslation that I am not getting? Does it have to do with the meaning of internet-speak "uber"? (That wasn't known after WWII...)

The gist is that somebody needs to explain the possible (and ostensibly widespread) misunderstandings that this text can have in others. That would be very informative. Moreover, if there are references to the Allied propaganda that enforced such misunderstandings then this article would improve even more.

Apart from this issue, I think this article is pretty good and just needs some spit and polish. Arbor 07:11, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

To answer my own question, I found this paragraph in the French version of this article

Dans les années suivantes, cependant, le premier couplet fut de plus en plus utilisé par des partis nationalistes comme les Nazis et réinterprété pour s'accorder avec leurs idéologies. Ainsi, Deutschland, Deutschland über alles fut interprété pour signifier L'Allemagne doit dominer le monde, et l'idée du poète d'une patrie unifiée pour tous les Allemands fut pervertie en une initiative Heim ins Reich, qui allait entraîner la Seconde Guerre mondiale. En Allemagne Nazi d'habitude le Chant de « Deutschland, Deutschland » précéda le Horst-Wessel-Lied, le Chant de la SA.

This says that the Nazis (not the Allies) reinterpreted the first line as an appeal for global dominion. (Really? That seems mighty strange.) I mainly know about the early history of the Deutschlandlied, and not so much about its status during WWII, so I can't make that call. A reference would be a big help. Arbor 07:17, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

It is the official anthem??? /Changing the article name

The first paragraph states the third stanza text is the unofficial national anthem of Germany, but according the German wiki and other sources online the lyrics of the third stanza have been official since the 1990s. I changed the wording because of this. If anyone has any additional information in conflict with the German wiki please mention it here.

I also think the name of the article should be changed as soon as possible. The current name Das Lied der Deutschen is the original name but hardly in common use in Germany now. When using indigenous (non-English) names in the Wiki it is probably best to refer to the name used in the Wiki of the relevant language. The German-language Wiki article is titled "Deutschlandlied" .... this is also used to refer to the song in at least 90 percent of all circumstances in Germany these days. I suggest a mixed article name, perhaps Das Lied der Deutschen/Deutschlandlied. Either way, equal status should be given to the more accurate/common name and that is the "Deutschlandlied" since it has all but totally replaced "Das Lied der Deutschen" in modern German. Harald 30 June 2005 22:36 (UTC)

About the article title, I don't care either way. I say Deutschlandlied myself, but why not have the correct title here? (The confusion about official/unofficial is based on the weird status. Is a letter between the Kanzler and the Präsident enough to make it "official"? However, you made the right edit by just removing the adjective. Well done.) Arbor 30 June 2005 22:52 (UTC)

Yes, it is. It is generally considered by legal scholars in Germany (nobody else is interested ;-) to be the customary right of the head of state to set the symbols of the state. The exchanges of letters (1952, 1991) have both been published in the Bulletin of the Federal Government. JensMueller 13:08, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

EasyByte link

that easybyte link doesn't open for me, can anyone else try it too?

Edit war over translation

We have an edit war over the translation at hand. Please stop and meet at the talk page instead.

My 5 eurocent:

• above is the better translation of über. I also think that is the common way to translate the first line, but I will check some English books
• The translation of User:213.157.5.120 and advocated by User:Witkacy is terrible. Sticks together hardly matches the tone of the original. It's not even spelt right—their antient, beautiful tones. Tones should be sound, by the way.

In short, I see little merit in the current translation and think Nightbeast's reversion was appropriate. But by all means let's talk about it. Arbor 10:28, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Witkacy's revert was motivated by Nightbeast deletion of the category Anti-Polonism on the page Kulturkampf and Nightbeast defence of the Gdansk-Danzig vote, both of which Witkacy doesn't like for reasons he's afraid to state (*cough* some just said "chauvinism"). Witkacy and Molobo intend to label Germany as an anti-polononistic country (see the article Anti-Polonism and its discussion page for information on their propaganda. All statements by them concerning Anti-Polonism in the current Germany and France turned out to be inappropriate). Witkacy is angry that Nightbeast - *cough, cough* whoever that is - challenges his dubious claims and therefore Witkacy violates WP:POINT. His knowledge of Germany is based on fantasies and bad faith, and his knowledge of the German language is at best based fully on some translation software that translates word-for-word, at worst he cannot understand German at all (according to the Collins dictionary: overall=Kittelschürze, above all=vor allem, vor allen Dingen), and just reverted motivated by revenge. The alleged POV (you know, POV-pushing people love to label everyone else a POV-pusher for some reason) is of course false. The intention of the writer of the Lied der Deutschen was translated from the German wikipedia and coincides with what my history teacher told us, of course it can be found anywhere on the net too, but that's not the point: Witkacy undoes what Nightbeast in the vain hope that he could talk Nightbeast into stopping challenging Witkacy's propaganda.

I'd really appreciate it, Arbor, if you could have a look at the Kulturkampf article and express a third opinion so a dispute resolution can deal with it and climb - judging from my knowledge of Witkacy - until the arbitration committee. - by a not so anon anon. Unsigned comment by User:213.6.36.126

Deutschland über alles

Until I just reverted it, the first line was changed to

Das Lied der Deutschen ("The Song of the Germans", also known as Das Deutschlandlied, "The Song of Germany", or Deutschland, Deutschland uber alles, "Germany, Germany, above all")...

Incorrect spelling notwithstanding, the addition is not without merit. It boils down to whether or not we should include titles that are in some sense wrong but wide-spread. Now, I don't know how many people actually refer to the Deutschlandlied as Deutschland, Deutschland über alles. I have the suspicion that very little written material does so. But still, it is a valid, and possibly wide-spread, misnomer. My immediate reason to remove the title, at least from the first sentence, is that it makes it factually incorrect. (In that the first stanza, which begins Deutschland..., is not the national anthem.) We could do something like this:

Das Lied der Deutschen ("The Song of the Germans", also known as Das Deutschlandlied, "The Song of Germany", and whose first stanza begins Deutschland, Deutschland über alles, "Germany, Germany, above all")...

or

Das Lied der Deutschen ("The Song of the Germans", also known as Das Deutschlandlied, "The Song of Germany", sometimes known by the first line of the first stanza Deutschland, Deutschland über alles, "Germany, Germany, above all")...

but now the first line is really clumsy. How about completely avoiding the bracketed part in the first sentence and write a second paragraph instead:

In Germany, the Song of the Germans is usually known as Das Deutschlandlied ("Song of Germany"). Outside of Germany, it is sometimes known by the first line of its first stanza, Deutschland, Deutschland über alles ("Germany above all"), but this stanza is not part of the national anthem of modern Germany.

I think this is informative, helpful, and targets a common misunderstanding. Arbor 09:35, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Let me just add that I have no idea if the thing is "sometimes known as" Deutschland über alles. I have checked two English-language reference works now, and they both say Deutschlandlied. So before we make the edit we need to check this, or add something wishy-washy like "sometimes informally known as". We shouldn't be in the business to spread misinformation. Arbor 09:45, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

'deutschland über alles' is the beginning of the first stanza, which is FORBIDDEN in germany. 'deutschland über alles' is NOT the title of the german national anthem

it is not forbidden, man! Who fucking told you that? Well, it can be forgiven, because it has indeed ocurred that German policemen arrested people for singing the first stanza. However, even those guys finally had to understand that no prohibition exists. So please, do so as well! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.52.147.75 (talk) 16:45, 2 February 2007 (UTC).

Above all

[Copied by User:Arbor from User:Friedolin's talk page. Arbor 18:46, 19 February 2006 (UTC)]

Friedolin, could it be that you are mistranslating the English translation of "über alles" yourself? "Above all" does mean "above all things". The popular mistranslation you are attacking would be "Germany, Germany everywhere" (from überall). Mind you, that mistranslation is inserted on the Deutschlandlied page often enough (only to be quickly reverted). But there is nothing wrong with "above all". Best, Arbor 21:27, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

No, the words in the song do not say 'überall', one word, the words do say 'über alles'.

For the incorrect translation to be correct, the word 'alles' would have had to be 'alle', as in 'alle Leute' or 'alle Länder' (all people, all countries). But the German wording is 'über alles'! 'Alles' applies to neither a male nor a female gender, it applies strictly to objects ('Sachen' or things). And in addition, to construe that Germany was coveting countries that were not part of Germany before, or had not a majority of Germans if a plebescite wer held, is patently false.

And then there is the author's intent to convey a concept of a Germany which is noble and honest, only demanding German rights, as in 'we are endowed with certain inalienable rights by our creator.' Those are the rights he was talking about, not justice or man made laws, as it has been incorrectly translated before.

If you go through my translation again, you will probably see other instances where such fine distinction is made - they are the difference between one who understands what the anthem meant to Germans who were singing it and a translation that was, there is no other word for it, done with malicious intent.  :-) Friedolin 16:45, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Friedolin, we seem to be talking past each other. Let me try to be more clear. The English phrase "above all" means "über Alles". It does not mean "über Alle". (That would be "above everyone".) So there is nothing wrong with translating "über Alles" to "above all". You are attacking a translation based on (what I believe) is a misunderstanding, and you are stipulating malicious intent in a previous editor who probably just had a different understanding of the subtleties of the English language than you and me. Another thing: you must assume good faith in your fellow editors. Implying the opposite is one of the best ways of getting banned around here. Stop it now.

I propose that you begin on working your alternative translations into the article as soon as you can (instead of having an alternative translation as you have now—that is sure to get removed). Instead, why not insert a new paragraph called Common mistranslations after the translation, with the following effect:

The first line of the first stanza is easy to misunderstand for those who do not have German as a first language. "Deutschland über alles" aims to express a [blabla, what you said above]. This is variously translated into English as "Germany above all (things or goals)". It does not mean "Germany everywhere" (which would be the proper translation of "Deutschland überall", nor "Germany before all others" (which would be the proper translation of "Deutschland über Alle".

(Maybe you want to put in a historical perspective on this as well, about the Allies spreading this mistranslation with malicious intent. I just have never been able to find verification for this.) This is a lot shorter, and infinitely more informative than providing a different translation. Moreover (and most importantly for you and me) it points to a possible misunderstanding and eradicates it. Arbor 18:42, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

[end copy from talk page]

Arbor, your efforts to make the difficult understandable are to be commended. Your paragraph below the translation of the "Deutschlandlied" goes a long way in clarifying the term "über alles". But you also took exception to my use of the word "malicious". I beg to differ, and so would you if you were German. It is nothing but maliciousness when a foreigner labels you a Nazi just because you are a German patriot. (I dare say that nine times out of ten the word Nazi is maliciously used when speaking of Germans, as it is further down below the translation of the Deutschlandlied.) It was Germans, not just Nazis who loved their National Anthem the way it was written. It was Germans who named their rivers Maas, Memel and Etsch. The Baltic Sea bordering on Germany was the Belt, just as Munich is München to them now. I know, when we say Munich and not München, it's because we have no "Umlauts" in Englisch. Well, every one knows that Munich is in Bayern (Bavaria) and Bayern is in Deutschland (Germany), so no heartfeelings about that. But when you give foreign names to the names of rivers and a sea mentioned in the German National Anthem, the implication clearly is yeah, yeah, the greedy Krauts can't have enough. They want "uber alles", they wanyt the whole world! The German National Anthem is as dear to Germans as our National Anthem is to us. We should respect that and if we translate their "Lied" it should be as close to the spirit of the words as is possible. Friedolin 19:45, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Arbor, you say that "The English phrase "above all" means "über Alles". (and that)It does not mean "über Alle". (That would be "above everyone".)" No, no, literally translated "above all" means "über allen". A more correct translation of "über alles" and to convey what was meant, would be to say "Germany comes before every thing" or "Germany comes before any thing else". For example, in English we are able to say "Above all I want to be a pilot" or we can say the same thing with "I want to be a pilot before I do anything else." Above and before can be interchanged. In the case of the Deutschlandlied saying 'before' instead of 'above' would convey more correctly what the author had in mind and what Germans understand the meaning to be. Friedolin 01:25, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Oh, personally I agree with the maliciousness. But Wikipedia is not the place for you or me to work in our own perspectives about history (or anything else). Malicious is correct (in my view) but it violates WP:NPOV. That's why it has to go. What we could do is to write "The English Historian John Doe claims that the Alllied mistranslation of the first line was deliberate had malicious intent." If you can find somebody like John Doe (I made him up for this example) then by all means put him in.

As for "above all", my dictionary has: "above all: more than anything else, most of all". I think that is as close as it can get. If you want to expand on how this phrase was supposed to be understood then please edit my attempt at an explanatory paragraph. Especially, you could write something like, "The German phrase 'Über alles' means 'above all' or 'before all', in the sense 'more than anything else', putting the goal of a unified national state before all other political agendas." Or something like that—I am sure you can do better. Arbor 06:50, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Arbor, to use a worn-out but true phrase once again, 'you are a scholar and a gentleman!' I like how you went about to settle the disagreement between us. Your last effort just about hits the nail on the head too: "The German phrase 'Über alles' means 'above all' or 'before all', in the sense as 'more than anything else', putting the goal of a unified nation (al state) before all other political agendas." This thought is repeated in "Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit" a unified nation exercizing its RIGHT to live in freedom. 68.219.31.86 02:43, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Would'nt "Germany, Germany above everything" a appropriate translation ?

Haydn's String Quartet

I don't know what cataloging system you are using, but the string quartet with the aforementioned theme is normally referred to as opus 76, nbr. 3, which is correctly recorded as being in C major.

Also, it is a pretty standard convention to denote C major with an uppercase "C" and c minor with a lowercase "c".

Good points all—I encourage you to fix it yourself. Welcome to Wikipedia. Oh, and remember to sign you contributions on talk pages; simply type four tildes at the end, and a time stamp and signature will appear automatically. Arbor 09:07, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Heligoland VS Helgoland

I think it is worth a consideration what is more English. Helgoland is much more frequent than Heligoland in Google. Britannica refers to München as Munich, the English name. But Britannica's article on Heligoland is named Helgoland and only says also spelled Heligoland. Sciurinæ 13:52, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Oh. I had no idea. If in fact Helgoland is an accepted English name, then by all means we should use that. In that case my reverts were pretty obnoxious. Could you provide some more data? (Google is not so good; English dictionaries, history textbooks, and maps would be better.) Arbor 15:36, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Shouldn't this be discussed at Talk:Heligoland? It would make sense to use here whatever name the article there ends up with. Any proposed name change should go through Wikipedia:Requested moves. As long as there is no mention on the Heligoland page that Helgoland is used in English, using Heligoland exclusively seems at least consistent. Kusma (討論) 23:28, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Apparently I was wrong. My OUP dictionary referred to it as Heligoland and so does MSN Encarta. I'm not sure whether Britannica's implication that both names are English is correct, but if I should find enough evidence pointing into that direction, I will address the issue at Heligoland article, just as Kusma proposed. Sciurinæ 20:53, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Formal legal grounds

The formal legal ground is an exchange of letters between the president and the chancellor, see [1] and [2].

This follows from the customary right of the head of state to set the symbols of the state. JensMueller 13:05, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Translate exchanges of letters

Is there a need to translate the exchanges of letters into English? I feel it would simplify the discussion ... JensMueller 10:48, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

POV all over the place

I'm not going to try to "fix" this one, as I get the idea there would be a revert and mini-war, but I'll post a couple of problems I have with the criticism section. First:

"The song has frequently been criticised because of its generally nationalist theme"

This strikes me as almost mildly retarded. Nationalist themes in a national anthem? Are there national anthems with non-nationalist themes? You don't really hear many anthems like "France is Tolerable" or "America Can Be Agreeable with the Right Weather." On to the even more idiotic slant:

"The enemies of Germany inferred a sinister intent of a German supremacy on a global level behind the exhortation to "Deutschland über Alles in der Welt" ("Germany above all in the world"), and the words were so exploited in Allied propaganda. The song still rings with menace today in the ears of some anti-German people."

"Enemies of Germany?" "Anti-German people?" It sounds like a propaganda release. How about adding "enemies of Socialism" and "Jewish capitalist swine" while we're at it. Although, it seems like someone inserted anti-German POV into the pro-German (pro-Nazi?) POV with "still rings with menace." Roland Deschain 12:27, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Not only that:

The reason why German is no longer the primary language near the Memel is the massive forced displacement, deportation and genocide of eastern Germans immediatly following the Second World War. More than 16 million Germans were forcibly uprooted, and nearly 3 million perished during the harsh winter of 1945. Most of these figures represent women and children, as the majority of the male population was wasting away in Einsenhower's death camps.

Aside from the fact that no citation was given, this is pure propaganda. -- Kerowren 15:38, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

The deportation after WW II is a historical fact. "Genocide" and "deathcamps" sound like propaganda to me. All in all I don't see the relevance in conjunction with an article dealing with the German national anthem. -- 80.144.240.145 14:26, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

That many German POWs died in American prison camps isn't disputed. The number is, but the low end (as I recall) is in the hundreds of thousands. Rklawton 04:21, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Recht means Law

===> NO: "Recht" in this context means "justice", see remarks below (mindbender) 80.140.4.22 17:11, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

In German, Recht means law. It means "right" only when it is not capitalized. So "Recht" is always law. --SergioCQH 17:08, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

It means right. Kingjeff 19:26, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

As a German native speaker, I can agree with Kingjeff. For example: I have the right to drink alcohol, would be correctly translated as: Ich habe das RECHT, Alkohol zu trinken.

Some comments on the translation of "Recht" as "right", which I personally find insufficient and potentially misleading! In the context used in the "Deutschlandlied" "Recht" clearly is in the context of there beeing an "Rechtsstaat" or "free government under the law" in the German State(s). My opinion therefore is that the translation "justice" would be much better. Not only because of the multiple and not always completely identical uses of the words "Recht" and "right" in the German and English languages, but also because even a "free government under the law" doesn't only provide its citizens with rights, but also many times also defines restrictions to protect others, as well as it might impose some duties on those citizens such as a military service and unfortunately taxes. mindbender 80.140.26.52 22:55, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

As nobody posted anything that disproves my above comments I have changed the translation of "Recht" which were sometimes "law" and sometimes "right" to the more appropriate "justice". Also as an additional argument for this change I want to point out that the continuous text of this article repeatedly uses the word "justice" while I couldn't find "law" or "recht". (mindbender)80.140.4.22 17:11, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Nazi Rock Band

Not sure who added the second external link "Das Lied der Deutschen. All three stanzas, beginning with the first. (MP3 sound file)".

According to the ID 3 Tag it's from the Nazi Rock Band "Zillertaler Türkenjäger". Personally, I think it's pretty tasteless to link a Nazi Rock Band. If one feels the urge to link mp3s then I would suggest linking a Pre Hitler Version. schaecsn 2/9/07

I also noticed that and removed it. 84.161.103.230 14:50, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

The ID 3 Tag is still the same. that should be removed once and for all.

another version can be found at www.deutschlandlied.de

maybe we could link that version? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.135.222.207 (talk) 19:34, August 28, 2007 (UTC)

- Yamok 19:27, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

real strange. i mean this nazi band surely is not a women's choir. but why is this tag existing?

-Yamok 16:16, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Lyrics and translation - bug

Hi! "Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit" - recht in this sentence means law. I've corrected that.

Sorry 4 my bad English. ;) Marcin from Poland 83.22.62.75 21:58, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

"never formalised

"but the decision was never formalised." - The article says the decision by (President) Heuss and (Chancellor) Adenauer was never formalised. I do not understand what this is supposed to mean. The decision by the Federal President IS formal. I'll change the article accordingly. 22:11, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Theodor Heuss and Konrad Adenauer agreed upon the third stanza to be the national anthem, but it was not passed as a law until 1991. The federal constitutional court considered the letters stating the agreement between Heuss and Adenauer to be "not conclusive". number29 16:49, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Motto

A quick internet search didn't get me any closer to finding a source for the purported "motto" of Germany. As I've never heard about a "motto" before, I'd like to ask here: Can anyone name a reference for the phrase having any official meaning, let alone being a "motto" of Germany? To my knowledge, it's simply a well-known phrase (similar to Allons enfants de la patrie, God bless America, America the Beautiful, and other lines like that...), which is catchy, the beginning of the anthem and thus has been printed on that official stuff like coins etc. --Ibn Battuta 21:47, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism

Due to repeated vandalism, I removed that "variant joking about Partitions of Germany" which hardly belongs in the article anyway.-- Matthead ^discuß!     O       17:36, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

@ "Deutschlandlied: Geography": displayed map shows wrong "modern" borders to the East

I don't know how to edit the graphic in the said entry. But the map displayed shows "modern" time Germany to be reaching as far East as Warsaw!

Reply to the Above: the map does not show wrong borders - whoever put it there messed about with the resolution of it - the entire map is too wide.

But the map is definitly wrong, at least concerning the borders of Austria. In 1841 Austria was not just this little piece of Europe drawn in the map, as the Austrian Empire at that time included big parts of southern and eastern Europe. It was the idea of the German nationalists (like Hoffmann von Fallersleben), to take the German-speaking parts away from Austria and integrate them into a German national state. But the Austrian government (especially prime minister Prince Felix of Schwarzenberg) successfully defended the integrity and multinationality of the Austrian Empire. For more details see: Austrian Empire. -- Rfortner 20:57, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Again: translation "Recht" to "law" or "justice"

See also the sections Recht means Law and Lyrics and translation - bug above.

There are a lot of possible translations for "Recht", see here the results from Germany's most frequently used online translator. Thus, whether "law" or "justice" (or even "right") is appropriate, must be determined from the context. If you take a look at Deutschlandlied#Historical background and Deutschlandlied#Hoffmann's lyrics, it is clearly that "Recht" is claimed against the "Unrecht" (injustice) of monarchical states. Also, there is a strong relation to "Rechtsstaat".

Because also in a Police state and a Monarchy there are a lot of laws, especially against Freedom of speech, I think that "law" is an inappropriate translation, I would prefer "justice". Another idea: "Recht" might be translated as Rule of law, although that expression is a bit long, but that's what von Fallersleben wanted to express.

--Cyfal (talk) 13:50, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

"Justice" certainly is the best translation. I guess Hoffmann had the French motto "Liberté, egalité, fraternité" in his mind when he tried a German translation that fitted his rhyme scheme. What if he translated "egalité" to "Gerechtigkeit" and shortened it to "Recht" - accepting the tiny difference that does exist in the meaning. --Klausi 14:47, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Über Alles

http://jwz.livejournal.com/849708.html?thread=16564524 - interesting discussion on exactly what "Über Alles" means in this context, also discussed above in "Above All". The sense seems to be that "before all" would be a more accurate translation - it's not saying that Germany should rule above all but that it should be first in the hearts of its people. Is there a citeable discussion of this anywhere so that some of the interesting information on this talk page can make it into the article? — ciphergoth 11:09, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Manuscript

Would someone care to add a paragraph about the original manuscript being in the Berlinka (art collection) collection in Kraków? Which seems odd, to say the least. Sca (talk) 19:37, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Another variant

When I lived in Germany in the late 1970s, a work colleague used to sing a variant he remembered from the immediate post-war period that went something like:

Deutschland, Deustchland, ohne alles
Ohne butter, ohne brot...

I can't remember the rest of it. Could anyone supply this version, since it's similar to the 1921 variant already mentioned?

As for translations: My feeling about über, from the use of this word as I encountered it in similar contexts, is that it implies putting A ahead of B, preferring A over/to B, or giving priority to A over B; and, given the historical context in which it was written, that Deutschland über alles was intended to mean to give priority to wider, pan-German interests rather than the narrow interests of smaller groupings. Recht is as in Rechtsstaat: a state in which rule of law prevails. Fwiw, Jim_Lockhart (talk) 14:32, 15 June 2008 (UTC)