Talk:Ancient Macedonians

Non-Hellenic words?

find me a ancient macedonian word with a non-hellenic etymology. I challenge everyone to bring it on the discussion group.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.133.162.45 (talk • contribs).

...ooooh....a challenge....sort of like arm-wrestling. very macho. Actually, there apparently are a number of Macedonian words that don't have clear "hellenic etymologies", but these can be viewed as loanwords from another people, so your challenge is irrelevant, and would not prove anything pro or con. good luck finding another earth-shattering challenge. In the meanwhile, try to use this talk page to discuss changes to the article's content.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.228.53.144 (talk • contribs).

noone can find anything non-Hellenic about Macedonians. DefendEurope (talk) 08:09, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Ancient Macedonians were an Ancient Greek Tribe. period.

This article has been vandalized. You delete ancient sources. You block ancient and modern historical and linguistic knowledge. This is disgusting. Ancient Macedonians were Hellenes like Molossians, Chaonians, Thesprotians, Spartans, Athenians etc. are you guys allergic to truth? for tribes like Molossians and Chaonians it's ok to put "Molossians were an Ancient Greek tribe", but for the Macedonians it is not? there are hundreds upon hundreds of ancient writings of Macedonians calling themselves Greek, Greeks calling Macedonians Greek, Persians and other foreigners calling the macedonians Greek. http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Macedonia do you have proof and sources against that? If you disagree with this fact that Ancient Macedonians considered themselves Greeks(or Hellenes), bring your arguments and sources or silence forever. If there is not doubt about whether ancient Macedonians were a Greek tribe why is this article not like any other ancient Greek tribe article? it should be like this: "The Ancient Macedonians (Greek: Μακεδόνες, Makedónes) were an ancient Greek tribe who inhabited..." if there is no evidence against it except propaganda, why not let the people know the truth? that is the way that it should be "Greek tribe". Ask any Historian. look at modern and ancient Historians: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Macedonia see it for yourself , crosscheck it and tell the whole truth. DefendEurope (talk) 08:42, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree this is disgusting this is suppossed to be an encyclopedia.Respect facts and sources,if you disagree with something show some facts and arguments and let us discuss Wrcrack (talk) 07:40, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Another example of FYROM double standards

How typical from our northern neigbours. When you refer to yourselves, you demand that everybody calls you Macedonian because that's what you call yourselves. But when you refer to the Ancient Macedonians, who SELF IDENTIFIED as Greeks, we have to sit and listen to what you (or some propaganda sources of yours) say about them. There is a Greek saying (from the Greek shadow puppet theater of Karagiozis) that goes: "Mine is mine and yours is mine". --    Avg    02:46, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

• Ancient Macedonans that self identified as Greeks?? Where did you get that idea from? I have never heard it. --B. Jankuloski 23:21, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, B. Jankuloski, here are a few quotes from famous ancient Macedonians which (unfortunately, for obvious reasons) they don't teach you:

Alexander I of Macedon, king of Macedon from 498 BCE to 454 BCE:

Tell your king (Xerxes), who sent you, how his Greek viceroy of Macedonia has received you hospitably. (Herodotus, “Histories”, 5.20.4, Loeb)

Men of Athens... In truth I would not tell it to you if I did not care so much for all Greece; I myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Greece change her freedom for slavery. I tell you, then, that Mardonius and his army cannot get omens to his liking from the sacrifices. Otherwise you would have fought long before this. Now, however, it is his purpose to pay no heed to the sacrifices, and to attack at the first glimmer of dawn, for he fears, as I surmise that your numbers will become still greater. Therefore, I urge you to prepare, and if (as may be) Mardonius should delay and not attack, wait patiently where you are; for he has but a few days' provisions left. If, however, this war ends as you wish, then must you take thought how to save me too from slavery, who have done so desperate a deed as this for the sake of Greece in my desire to declare to you Mardonius' intent so that the barbarians may not attack you suddenly before you yet expect them. I who speak am Alexander the Macedonian. (From the speech of Alexander I of Macedon when he was admitted to the Olympic games, Herodotus, "Histories", 9.45)

Alexander the Great, king of Macedon, 356 BCE - 323 BCE:

Your ancestors came to Macedonia and the rest of Greece and did us great harm, though we had done them no prior injury. I have been appointed leader of the Greeks, and wanting to punish the Persians I have come to Asia, which I took from you... (Alexander's letter to Persian king Darius in response to a truce plea, as quoted in "Anabasis Alexandri" by Roman historian Arrian, Book II, 14, 4)

Holy shadows of the dead, I’m not to blame for your cruel and bitter fate, but the accursed rivalry which brought sister nations and brother people, to fight one another. I do not feel happy for this victory of mine. On the contrary, I would be glad, brothers, if I had all of you standing here next to me, since we are united by the same language, the same blood and the same visions. (Addressing the dead Greeks of the Battle of Chaeronea, as quoted in “Historiae Alexandri Magni” by Roman historian Quintus Curtius Rufus.)

If it were not my purpose to combine foreign things with things Greek, to traverse and civilize every continent, to search out the uttermost parts of land and sea, to push the bounds of Macedonia to the farthest Ocean, and to disseminate and shower the blessings of Greek justice and peace over every nation, I should not be content to sit quietly in the luxury of idle power, but I should emulate the frugality of Diogenes. But as things are, forgive me, Diogenes, that I imitate Heracles, and emulate Perseus, bands follow in the footsteps of Dionysus, the divine author and progenitor of my family, and desire that victorious Greeks should dance again in India and revive the memory of the Bacchic revels among the savage mountain tribes beyond the Caucasus. (Plutarch, "Moralia: On the Fortune of Alexander", I, 332a-b)

Youths of the Pellaians and of the Macedonians and of the Greek Amphictiony and of the Lakedaimonians and of the Corinthians… and of all the Greek peoples, join your fellow-soldiers and entrust yourselves to me, so that we can move against the barbarians and liberate ourselves from the Persian bondage, for as Greeks we should not be slaves to barbarians. (Pseudo-Kallisthenes, “Historia Alexandri Magni”, 1.15.1-4)

Now you fear punishment and beg for your lives, so I will let you free, if not for any other reason so that you can see the difference between a Greek king and a barbarian tyrant, so do not expect to suffer any harm from me. A king does not kill messengers. (Pseudo-Kallisthenes, “Historia Alexandri Magni”, 1.37.9-13)

There are Greek troops, to be sure, in Persian service — but how different is their cause from ours! They will be fighting for pay — and not much of at that; we, on the contrary, shall fight for Greece, and our hearts will be in it. (Addressing his troops prior to the Battle of Issus, as quoted in “Anabasis Alexandri” by Roman historian Arrian, Book II, 7)

Philip V, King of Macedon, 221 BC - 179 BC:

For on many occasions when I and the other Greeks sent embassies to you begging you to remove from your statutes the law empowering you to get booty from booty, you replied that you would rather remove Aetolia from Aetolia than that law (Polybius, “The Histories”, 18.4.8)

Cheers! The Cat and the Owl (talk) 14:38, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

uhmmm, mr Jankuloski, do you really think that a person with your last name is related in any way to ancient Macedonians?? In fact the name Macedonia is Greek, related to the adjective makednos and to the root mak- still existing in the greek word mak-ros, you can find it yourself in greek-origined english modern words such as macro-economics. Educate yourself before trying to bias history for your own nationalistic purposes. And if you can not find any ancient macedonians self identifying themselves as ancient Greeks look for Alexander the 1st in the early 5th century BC. Why dont you look up the names of ancient Macedonians: Krateros, Philippos, Amyntas, Olympias, Alexandros, Gorgias, Aristoteles, Protagoras, Parmenion, Hephaistion etc etc etc. ALL GREEK. You could not find one single name of an Ancient Macedonian that does not have a purely greek name. And i could tell you this. I am a greek but i do not care at all if Ancient Macedonians were Greeks or just a neighbour nation to Greeks like the ancient Thracians. Since they decided to embrace the greek culture and to be assimilated by Greeks, whats your problem? that still makes them Greeks. Blood doesnt count. What counts is culture, civilization, language and what you really want to be. I recognize your right to have as part of your national name the term "Macedonian", you could call your country either Northern Macedonia, Slavomacedonia or FYR Macedonia. Why dont you recognize our right to not let you Slavomacedonians monopolize this name and its history? At least my name is Dionysios, related to the god Dionysos, worshipped by ancient Macedonians and Alexander the Great (Alexandros o Megas). What is your name really mister -ski? (Dionysios 16:45, 25 January 2007 (UTC))

Yes. Dionysis. And your father is Zeus and mother is cleopatra ! ! DELUSIONAL.

Any 10 year old Greek can read what is written on the tomb of King Philippos. Can you?

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Hxseek (talk • contribs) 09:00, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

=Hellenistic absorbed??=

The following paragraph makes absolutely no sense:

"Historians generally agree that the ancient Macedonians - whether they spoke a Greek dialect or a distinct language - were absorbed into the Koine Greek-speaking population in Hellenistic times."

Wrong time period. The Hellenistic period did not begin until after the death of Alexander the Great, while we know that the ancient kingdom of Macedon started to take part in the Greek world since at least Alexander I of Macedon, that's a century before King Philip II of Macedon was even born. ~Mallaccaos, 25 May 2006

The assimilation of XMK as a language/ethnicity is generally thought to have taken place in Hellenistic times, not before Alexander III's death. In the lead paragraph things are usually kept brief, but you can add info about the process beginning in pre-Hellenistic times. 69.106.104.144 17:56, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

That doesn't match up with the other aspects that have so far been found, which point that XMK as a language/ethnicity was at least starting taken place since the 5th century BC, such as: aside from Thucydides, who lived in the 5th century bc, proclaiming them as part of the ancient "Hellenic" tribes branch, we also have Alexander I of Macedon, who modeled his court after Athens and was a patron of the poet Pindar; Strattis Athenian comedy which presents Macedonian speech as a form of Greek; the Hesychius of Alexandria glosses where the majority of these words can be confidently identified as Greek; Persians who had no stake in calling them Greek, such as King Darius Hystaspes, who ruled over the Macedon kingdom during the 5th century bc, would call them Yaunâ Takabarâ ("Greeks with sunhats"), Yaunâ=Persian word when referring to Greeks and Takabarâ=Persian world in reference to the Macedonian headwear. The Persians must have seem some sort of Hellenic influence to call their Macedonian subjects "Yauna"; the Persians dealt with the ancient people back then, they didn't call the Thracians, Libyans, Carians etc as such, but they did with Macedonians. Plus the Persians had Greeks living in their back yards all over Asia Minor, I'm sure they could have told the difference between the people they ruled over; King Archelaus establishing the new capital at Pella, and holding annual festivals in honor of Zeus at Dion (a city right next to Mt. Olympus); Southern Greeks such as Euripides, Agathon and the famous painter Zeuxis composing some of their most famous works in Macedon at the request of King Archelaus. By the 4th century BC there already numerious Doric inscriptions from pre-Hellenistic Macedon, such as the Pella katadesmos which points that not only there might be the chance that the royal Macedonian families were the only ones who spoke/wrote in some Hellenic dialect but so did the regular folk in a Hellenic Doric/North Western dialect which was not Attic or Koine. Which is why I questioned the "absorbance", if one has that view, of Macedon during the Hellenistic ages, when there is some evidence to suggested it might have started earlier then that. ~Mallaccaos, 25 May 2006

Just a few corrections:

• The political acts of Alexander I tell us something about the political orientation of that king, but hardly about the ethnic background of his subjects - nobody doubts Macedonia started importing Attic culture from the south around that time. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:01, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

The way the first paragrapher of this article was phrased, it sounded like it didn't. ~Mallaccaos, 25 May 2006

• Of the Strattis comedy, one single sentence is preserved, in a writer quoting it centuries later - I'd like to see a reference to a reputed linguist discussing what evidence this yields for the Macedonian language issue.

And how many sentences 'have been preserved to tells us that this single sentence proves other wise? What we do know is that the person playing the Macedonian in the play pronounces Αττικοι as Ωττικοι and υμεις as υμες. I haven't seen anyone disproven this as being false yet.~Mallaccaos, 25 May 2006

Yes, and in the interest of WP:NOR, could you please point us to the linguistic article that discusses how well these supposed dialect features fit in with the properties of the Pella dialect? (Not that I'd exclude they might, but who here is competent to judge this?) By the way, I might be wrong here, but isn't "Ωττικοί" just a case of standard crasis of vocative "ω" with "Αττικοί"? Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:53, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

The minute it is pointed to us of the linguistic articles which gives "proof" Borza's "linguistic" evidence disproves ancient Macedonian falling under the Greek dialects. As to the source of the Strattis comedy, it was taken from an article by Alfred Korte quoting Athenaios VII,323b which Sakellariou translated into English. ~Mallaccaos, 27 May 2006

Ah, that's something. Could you provide a full citation of the source so we can include it in the article? As for the linguistic discussion about the pros and cons of the Greek-dialect hypothesis, see the language article, it quotes a few things. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:02, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

P.S.: Ah, I now see you probably got the info from this third-class nationalist website: [1]. That web author manages to get even the quote from Sakellariou wrong. "Ma freen", αα ρε φίλε indeed! Let me make a suggestion: We should all get down from our respective soapboxes and spend a bit more time in libraries instead of on the web arguing and edit-warring. I'm still planning to rewrite the article, but not before I have read both Borza and Sakellariou in the original, and I very much recommend everybody else do the same. I'm not going to enter into any more arguments based on cheap web material. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:23, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

• Hesychius is 5th century CE not BCE, almost a millenium after the critical period you're talking about.

I stand corrected on the century but its value can be seen the dialects which are found in it do take back to the works of Aeschylus and Theorcritus which also includes the Macedonian dialect.~Mallaccaos, 25 May 2006

• There aren't "numerous" Doric inscriptions, AFAIK. There's the Pella katadesmos and very little else. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:01, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Ofcourse, and as it was stated above, there so much evidence which points to it not falling within the Greek dialects. [roll] Isn't it funny that with each find, it mostly confirms its association with Greek then disproves it? Its interesting that King Archelaus called his new capital Pella, derived from the Doric word, APELLA, which the Doric speaking Spartans (not close friends of the Macedon btw) also used in refrence to a ceremonial location; and what did Archelaus do after building Pella? Ah yes, annual festivals in honor of Zeus at Dion.~Mallaccaos, 25 May 2006

• The Doric material (both Pella and Strattis) do not contradict the claim above about integration into the Koiné Greek-speaking population in hellenistic times, but support it. Whatever the relation between those Doric fragments and the elusive "Macedonian" proper - neither of them was Koiné. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:01, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

What people seem to not understand when making claims such as that is that the Hellenistic Koiné Greek dialect, which was btw was based on the Attic dialect with numerious regional influences from local dialects, was not a phenomenon particular to Macedonia. Throught out the Greek world the Attic koine replaced the local dialects. So if you are basing the suppose "hellenization" of Macedonian on the integration of Koine Greek, then you might as well base that theory through out the ancient Greek world and say that Attica, Sparta and Thebes became "hellenized" at that same period too. ~Mallaccaos, 25 May 2006

I know what Koine was, thank you very much. The original sentence expressed the development quite precisely: Before the Hellenistic age, there was something that may or may not have been a Greek dialect; after the Hellenistic age, there was something else that was Koine. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:53, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

The original sentence, gave one the assumption that Macedon became a "Hellenic" culture after the entire world had been conquered and Hellenized by the Macedonian Empire, when for the Macedonians to be "supposedly" so "Hellenized" by the time of Alexander the Great, their "Hellinization" would have started much earlier then Koine Hellenic age. Couplet with that all the other material written in this article, it gave the article a different feel to it...which I tried to balance with some of the material I added. This current version which you cleaned up, is much better, IMO, and more balanced to what we do know so far. ~Mallaccaos, 25 May 2006

Glad we agree at least on this. :-) I'd still like to do a rewrite of the whole "controversy" section further down, but it's a big task. We can then also re-introduce some of the material you mentioned, I'd just want to frame it differently. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:02, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

there is no reason to treat "Ancient Macedonians" in an article different from Macedon. This is a blatant pov fork, containing nothing but a rehash of the topics covered there. A clear "Merge with Macedon". Stop littering new pov forks just to score points in the tired old and boring "Macedonia" coflict. dab (ᛏ) 20:05, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

This article was created by Alexander 007 following a discussion held at Talk:Macedon; and I hadn't been informed that we were vicious pov-pushers attempting to assure the victory for x side. As for "nothing but a rehash of the topics covered there", I found this statement sort of weird; where is the stuff in Macedon that is also in Ancient Macedonians?--Aldux 20:25, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I guess the original idea was okay, but the article has spun a bit out of control and has become POV-forkish in large parts through some recent additions. I wouldn't mind refactoring it back into the two other articles, but I think the most pressing task is to put the discussion on a decent basis in the literature, and not that cheap rehashed stuff from the usual nationalist websites (see above). Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:38, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

It a merge is going to take place, then exactly what is merged should be filtered carefully. I think the last sections, expecially the Hellenic controversy section, may not be needed at all. --Telex 20:46, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

One of the reasons this article was created was to free Macedon from the Hellenic controversy section, that was large, ugly and unscholarly. Removing it made Macedon better and far more peaceful, and I don't want to return to the previous condition. This article is bad now, but it can always be bettered.--Aldux 20:58, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Since the [personal attacks removed] have begun to attack this page also, I should explain that the first reference to Herodotus and the Dorians is not mine, although I believe it correct; the second is from Sakellariou's Macedonia. Septentrionalis 23:30, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't matter, the way it's written it is as if the article is trying to pass a hidden clue to the reader "fairy (bullshit) story" or "Alexander and Philip use that in order to pretend to be Greeks (which they weren't)" etc, etc. Miskin 23:39, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

PMA/Sept: The evident attacker is you. The vandals you are insinuating are actually very reasonable and contributing users, who are protecting the article from your POV edits, undue weight and original research. Try to blow your steam some other way, or be prepared to face the necessary consequences of WP:NPA.  NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 23:41, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

On the contrary, I'm taking Telex's suggestion, and citing Herodotus and Sakellariou here. 23:55, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

NPOV

Pmanderson do you think I'm not in possession of sources that say exactly what I want to write? Well you're wrong. The only reason I'm not making blunt edits here (although I can source every one of them) is because I'm respecting the NPOV policy, which clearly states that during highly controversial subject, _none_ of the views should be favoured over the other. I rewrote your edits in order to respect that policy, and what I get in return is a bunch of banal personal attacks. Miskin 23:46, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Niskin has now four times deleted a sourced citation of evidence not otherwise mentioned in this article. This is against policy (and common honesty). If he objected to the phrasing, that was within his rights to alter; to delete facts is vandalism. Septentrionalis 23:52, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

<YAWNS> Miskin 23:54, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Next time you want to report someone for 3RR, I would advise you to look at the diffs _before_ clicking the edit button. Miskin 00:09, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Cool down guys

Okay, you've all edit-warred enough for today.

• I agree with Pmanderson that Herodot's origin stories need to be put into some context, as there certainly are scholars who regard them as (a) mythical and/or (b) applying only to the royal house, not to the people in general. Both can easily be referenced. I think the text he proposed was not quite optimal though, I'd try to make it shorter.
• As for the language formulation ("the language spoken..."), to my mind that formulation is so neutral it does not, in itself, entail a claim to separate-language status. Therefore, the addition ("... or Greek dialect") is unnecessary.

What else were you quarrelling about? Fut.Perf. ☼ 00:34, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

• • Of course contributions should be edited. If I had been edited, rather than having the text blanked, I would have let reasonable alternatives stand.
  • "Language" is incidental damage, although it is used in this context even by those who consider Macedonian a Greek variant; it is fairly widely considered to be further from the (other) Greek dialects than they are from each other.
  • Miskin has blanked all reference to Herodotus's account of the Argead descent; this unquestionably belongs in this article. I will quote it in full if necessary, although it should not be.
  • He has also left the impression that, if accepted, it would imply the same descent for the Macedonian generals, which does not follow. Septentrionalis 15:16, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

As I said before this is a very controversial topic and edits must be very elegant. Pmanderson's were not at all, so I rewrote what I could and removed what seemed to be out of context. Nothing is conclusive and no view must be favoured over the other. All views must be given equal emphasis, and the order of presentation will depend on how many sources support each view (and not on the priority Alexander_007 decided to give). The article's sections must also be re-organised. Miskin 01:39, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I have yet to come across a scholar who questions or refutes Herodotus' citation in the article, i.e. that Macedonians were Dorian settlers. The Achaean and Heraclid origin of the Argead dynasty is a different story, and whether factual or not, it was accepted in antiquity even by Thucydides. However historian today do question its validity. Pmanderson's edits on the other hand were implying that scholars who doubt the mythical origin of the Argead dynasty would also doubt the Herodotian account on the Doric origin of Macedonians, which is not at all the case. One is about the Macedonians in general and the other is about its Royal family. Miskin 15:43, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

By the way pmanderson, there is a school of scholars which regards Macedonian speech to be a Hellenic language sister to the known Greek dialects, and there's another school which regards it simply a Greek dialect with Thraco-Illyrian admixtures. The view on Macedonian being completely distinct to Greek is held by a minority. Miskin 15:48, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh and pmanderson try to look at other people's edits before accusing them. I didn't blank the reference on Herodotus' accounts on the Argead dynasty [2] (eventhough it's mentioned later in the article). I removed a small paragraph which was making POV conclusions on the ethnicity of the Hellenistic rulers, who were in reality not even Macedonians, therefore largely irrelevant to the section and the article in general. Miskin 15:52, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I removed the following:

• "Both Philip II and Alexander the Great used this claim of kinship to secure recognition as Greeks, including an invitation to the Olympic Games."

Eventhough this is probably sourced, within a such controversian topic you cannot present it as factual, let alone stick it in the "origins" section. As I said before, in my opinion pmanderson's purpose was to mislead the reader into believing that Herodotus' acount on the Dorian invasion is as mythical as his record on the Argead dynasty. I repeat: They are two distinct records. If you find a criticism on the former theory, then by all means stick it in, but don't try to generalise the criticism on the latter in order to refute all of Herodotus' mentions on Macedon.

• "This claim of kinship applies to the Macedonian royal house, which was extinguished shortly after Alexander's death. The Macedonian generals who thereafter made themselves kings over Syria, Egypt, and Macedonia itself were not members of that house; although Ptolemy I sometimes claimed to be an illegitimate son of Philip II"

What does that have to do in the section "origins"? Later Hellenistic rulers were not even Macedonian, they were simply Greeks from all over the world. Therefore I don't see the need to point out the obvious, i.e. that they did not inherit Macedon's royal line. Miskin 16:04, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Mallacaos' additions

Ehmmm, sorry Mallacaos, but that source doesn't suffice to make it not WP:OR. We're not just dealing with reporting facts here, we're dealing with using facts to argue for an opinion. You've sourced the fact (Greeks as metics), but you haven't sourced the idea that it can serve as an argument about the Ancient Macedonians. Come back when you can say: "Author X has argued that, because even Greeks from other cities were treated as metics, we may conclude that the claim that Macedonians were "barbaroi" does not entail they were non-Greeks." - I very much doubt you will find such an idea in reliable printed sources by reputed historians or linguists. Hint: the difference between "citizen" and "metic" is different from that between "Hellene" and "barbarian". - No partisan websites please ([3]). Quote a book, or even better, a scholarly journal. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:46, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Ethnicity

So the Argead dynasty and the kings of Macedon claimed Greek decent, yet we are still 'disputing' whether they were not a Greek peoples? Give me a break.

That's a question I've already asked in the past. It's contradictory isn't it? But that's life. Miskin 10:07, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

LOL: "Herodotus lies in his book". Quick, someone write to his publishers and send him a stern warning letter with Eurydice, plus relevant news footage from CNN. That will teach him, the rascal! Politis 13:39, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

It is a usual tactic of propagandists to accuse historians of lying... Poor Herodotus cannot defend himself... However, history has proven him to be right in most of his statements. and about the rest, future will show... Apropos, for centuries people and propagandists believed that Homerus was lying about the Trojan War, or that Linear B was not a Hellenic script... But, History always takes her revenge. and no matter if the Skopjans rename their airport, history can't be erased:). Hectorian 13:47, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Let them IMO. And then Thessaloniki Airport should be renamed to "International Airport Alexander the Great - Cyril and Methodios - Kemal Ataturk the butcher" or something like that ;-) //Dirak 14:29, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Back to issue: One theory states that the macedonian kings claimed, even lied, greek descent to advance diplomatic interests. However, the greeks and macedonians mutually saw themselves as distinct people — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hxseek (talk • contribs) 08:55, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

replying to hxseek> Hxseek why don't you stick to Slavic people, where you belong and stop spreading propaganda? Macedonians are Greeks. Macedonians are Hellenes. Proof:

"Your ancestors came to Macedonia and the rest of Hellas and did us great harm, though we had done them no prior injury. I have been appointed leader of the Greeks, and wanting to punish the Persians I have come to Asia, which I took from you..."

• Alexander's letter to Persian king Darius in response to a truce plea. Arrian, "Anabasis Alexandri", II, 14, 4

if you don't believe all these you can crosscheck them from their original books.

"Our enemies are Medes and Persians, men who for centuries have lived soft and luxurious lives; we of Macedon for generations past have been trained in the hard school of danger and war. Above all, we are free men, and they are slaves. There are Greek troops, to be sure, in Persian service - but how different is their cause from ours! They will be fighting for pay - and not much of at that; we, on the contrary, shall fight for Greece, and our hearts will be in it. As for our foreign troops - Thracians, Paeonians, Illyrians, Agrianes - they are the best and stoutest soldiers in Europe, and they will find as their opponents the slackest and softest of the tribes of Asia. And what, finally, of the two men in supreme command? You have Alexander, they - Darius!"

Alexander the Great addressing his troops prior to the battle of Issus. Arrian, "Anabasis Alexandri", II, 7

• Holy shadows of the dead, I’m not to blame for your cruel and bitter fate, but the accursed rivalry which brought sister nations and brother people, to fight one another. I do not feel happy for this victory of mine. On the contrary, I would be glad, brothers, if I had all of you standing here next to me, since we are united by the same language, the same blood and the same visions."

Alexander the Great addressing the dead Greeks of the battle of Chaeronia. Curtius Rufus, "Historia"

these are -ancient- historical facts and evidence collected through centuries from various sources, Greek and non-Greek.

also Alexander's father name was Phillipos, a common Greek name. just like Alexander, all his families names were greek and have meanings in Greek. and in Greek only. Alexander's mother's name was Olympias. if you know a thing about ancient Greeks Olympos is their sacred Mountain of their Greek Gods. that's where her name comes from. where also the name Olympia, a city of southern Greece. and the name "Olympic Games". i guess you know the Olympic Games..

...

"

• Tell your king (Xerxes), who sent you, how his Greek viceroy (Alexander I) of Macedonia has received you hospitably.

Herodotus, "Histories", 5.20.4 ,Loeb

all the above are pure ancient sources.

for some more modern sources>

• The Macedonian kings, who maintained that their Greek ancestry traced back to Zeus, had long given homes and patronage to Greece's most distinguished artists."

Robin Lane Fox, "Alexander the Great", p.48

i can go on forever...

and for the Skopians-Slavs who want to steal history i have to say. Be proud of whatever you are. But Macedonians in the blood you are not. and also>

• We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century (AD)... we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."

Kiro Gligorov, (first democraticaly elected president of FYROM, referring to the citizens of his country), Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992

i would be surprised if any of you can stand half a point against all these facts....DefendEurope (talk) 00:26, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Greeks and Macedonians

E. Badian "STUDIES IN THE HISTORY OF ART VOL 10: MACEDONIA AND GREECE IN LATE CLASSICAL AND EARLY HELLENISTIC TIMES" by the National Gallery of Art, Washington. , Department of History, Harvard University http://www.gate.net/~mango/Badian.htm

Facts- two Greek rebellions challenge Macedonian foreign domination. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.247.99.26 (talk) 14:38, 25 January 2007 (UTC).

Factually, there are many errors in Badian's article above, so why post it?

Spirit of Truth

(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!

POV?

Instead of learning things about ancient macedonians, the article contantly examines whether they were greeks or not. Well actually I do not thing that such thing as 100% greek exists as it does not exist a 100%french or german or modern macedonian etc. And it would not make any sense to try and explain ancient times with terms of nationality of nowadays. The point of view of this article reflects aspects of racial purity and fascism and it does not belong in a serious socio-cultural or historical study. What is the point anyway? Because of the ridiculous name quarrel, it seems to me that the articles are being used for propaganda reasons -Eug

sadly, this is true. These pages are plagued by nationalists who prevent them from discussing their actual topic. Nobody seems to be interested in the Ancient Macedonians themselves, all that interests people is slapping some ethnic label on them. I find this rather sad; a true patriot would show genuine interest in the past. In this sense, I have met very few true patriots in all these nationalist disputes disrupting Wikipedia. dab (𒁳) 08:51, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes. I think this can only be achieved if and when Greece drops its monopilising attempts over the great ancient macedonians. The Macedons are common to the history of macedonia and greece, and at the same time not the equivalent to either modern Greeks or Macedonians. When we all realise this, then we can focus on learning more and more about them and not proving they are Greek, or whateverHxseek 09:09, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Hxseek 09:10, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

and when the north or slav-macedonians stop monopolizing the geographic name of macedonia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.49.0.219 (talk) 15:13, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh brother. This discussion hardly constitutes a reliable form of consensus. If direct evidence emphasizes the ethnic or tribal identity of the ancient Macedonians, then it is our job as users to present that evidence. Unfortunately, there is no detailed description of the type of evidence Rawlison and Ramsey possess to support their arguments regarding the supposed Illyrian, Thracian or mixed origins of the ancient Macedonians. Personally, I could care less if the ancient Macedonians turn out to be Scythians who know how to dance the kalamatiano. What needs to be done is to ensure that direct evidence is provided wherever an argument is placed in the article regarding the origins of the ancient Macedonians. End of story.

To be brutally frank, utilizing terms like "racial purity" and "fascism" to describe moments where users are presenting evidence that emphasize a tribe's ethnic identity is questionable behavior to say the least. Was Herodotus a "fascist" when he described the origins of the Macedonians? No. So, let us please avoid utilizing pathetic and cliche dime-a-dozen pejoratives just because we do not agree with things that exist in reality.

Granted, I agree that users should provide data about the ancient Macedonians other than just data that discusses their ethnic or cultural identity (or self-identity). As users we need to stay focused on any tasks that will help expand and enhance the quality of this article. Talking about "fascism" and "racial purity" really accomplishes nothing. If a few "nationalists" have direct, verifiable, and reliable evidence that focuses on the origins of the ancient Macedonians, then I could care less about whether or not their collective behavior demands our use of trivial pejoratives.

Let's cut the bullshit and get back to work. I deeply apologize for the profanity, but users should know better by now regarding what needs to be done in terms of enhancing the quality of extant (and so-called "controversial") articles. Deucalionite (talk) 15:02, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

to Hxseek: when Greeks (and many others) show what the ancient Macedonians were, they are monopolizing? but a Slavic group claims heritage and usage of the name Macedonian in a national way it is not? ...150.140.226.157 (talk) 11:14, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Recent edits

Hkseek, hxseeker or whatever, for once I will try to tell you somethings (although I seriously doupt you will understand).

-This article and generally the articles conserning Macedon are not a Greek POV as you claim. They are a product of serious talks and contributions by many editors and represent mainstream theories.

-It is obvious that you use pseudohistory sites like historyofmacedonia.org or similar Slavomacedonian sites as your sources and that from there you find your evidences. Reproducing such fallacies won't help you and people can not take you seriously.

-If you would bother to read the article you might be able to see that it states that Besides the theory which regards Macedonians as a Greek-speaking tribe (Masson, Hammond), the Macedonians were sometimes spoken of as a tribe of Thrace, the land north-east of Greece, akin to the Thracians.(Sir William M. Ramsey). Rather than a Greek origin, some scholars argue that the ancient Macedonians had an Illyrian or Thracian origin. It is also possible that the ancient Macedonians underwent ethnogenesis syncretizing Greek as well as Illyrian, and Thracian elements (cf. Borza, et al.). Searcing historyofmacedonia.org to find all the quotes by scolars who share these theories does not addes gravity to your claims, nor it proves anything more than the obvious: that some have these theories, but most think otherwise, as it has been said, proved and proved again and again in this and similar talk pages. Try to read some of these, before editing. Kapnisma ? 07:53, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes. I agree with most of what you say. And i din't state that this particular article is POV. Its just the language section i think tends to make the conclusion that the languag was greek a little too explicitly, when most would agree that the conclusion is still not 100% due to the fact that (a) little, if no, ancient macedonian text exists (b) the couple of hundred ancient macedonian words are not really sufficient to definitively decide a conclusion (although I am no linguist) and many words are actually hellenised because of the overwhelming cultural influence of Greece. As for you attack on my sources, I don't see why scholars from england or the US would have a POV on the matter. In fact i didn;t use any Macedonian (slav) thoughts. It appears that some people like to gloss over theories which don't agree with the greek side

However, contrary to what you may beleive, I am not necessarily trying to advance the view that Macedonians aren't greek. Hxseek 09:10, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Hxseek: you say that "little, if no, ancient macedonian text exists". Based on such an argument, namely on the non-existence of texts, we could speculate that there may have been hundreds of other languages. The only language we know for sure that was spoken in ancient Macedonia is Greek, Macedonian Greek. I am not aware of any references to a distinct, non-Greek, 'Macedonian language'. Besides, Greek cities or regions occasionally accused eachother of speaking poor Greek or even of not being Greek. The Athenians did it to the Spartans and to the Macedonians, the Spartans to the other Greeks, aso... Politis 11:47, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Helle. TOpic ancient macedonian language

Hi Kapnisma. The reason for my editing of the introduction for 'ancient macedonians' article is as follws: It reads

"Historians generally agree that the ancient Macedonians, whether they originally spoke a Greek dialect or a distinct language, belonged to the Koine Greek speaking population in Hellenistic times"

I beleive this is an unclear statement. From what i understand, Koine Greek is the language that came into common use after antiquity, the result of the 4 main ancient greek dialects. ANd, yes, this language became widespread in anceint Macedonia during the time of Alexander the Great. WHat is not known is whether it was spoken by everbody in Macedonia, or just the nobles/ traders/ administators, etc

But that is beside the point. An introductory paragraph should outline the theories about the nature of ancient macedonian language itself. Ie it would be more appropriate to state something like "Theories regarding the ancient macedonian language differ, with scholars placing it either as a dialect of Ancient Greek, a distinct though related language to greek, or an altogether seperate Indo-European language. Whatever the case, it belongs to the paleo-Balkan language group, as does Greek, Thracian and Illyrian".

{I am note trying to be anti-Greek. I am genuinely interested in the topic and simply what to make the article as best as it can be) 203.166.99.230 07:10, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest you are Hxseeker, now about whether Koine Greek was spoken as you put it just by the nobles/ traders/ administators, etc, the 6000 inscriptions of it that have been found across Macedonia (in graves, pottery, stones, degrees, etc), combined with Pella katadesmos, other Doric inscriptions and the absolute absence of any other inscription in any form of a mystirious forgotten language or in Illyrian or Thracian is the main reason why most researchers are concluding that although we do not have enough data to adequately classify their language it most propably was if not a form of Greek, then a sibling language and a fact that those who reject it have no explanation and a response to that. (Please, do not start quoting from the usual sites that you use as source every single one who has your views again, as proof)

Kapnisma ? 08:26, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I'll have to correct you on this. When linguists talk about whether Ancient Macedonian was Greek or not, they definitely, always, mean exactly that forgotten, unwritten, mysterious language that is not what the inscriptions are. The language in which gotán meant 'pig' and danós meant 'death'. The inscriptions are Greek, pure and simple, of course. That the other language, whatever it was, did not get written is no surprise at all. 99% of all ancient languages never got written. Whether or not that mysterious "other" language was what the majority of Macedonians would have spoken at the time of Alexander is yet another question. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:42, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

and whether or not that "mysterious" language is a ghost language that never really existed, but you make it up out of your..mind in order to make a hypothesis is also another question. what is not in question is that ancient Macedonians as a whole spoke Koine Greek and no other language by the Hellenistic era, they also spoke Attic earlier, and a NW Doric Greek dialect even earlier.150.140.226.157 (talk) 11:20, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Firstly, I was refering to whether the Koine Greek was spoken just by some, as our friend was suggesting, or by the whole population during Hellenistic era. Secondary, that forgotten, unwritten, mysterious language, apart from gotan and danos (rather curious indeed, if greek), also included hundreds of greek first names (not only the well known Alexander and Phillip, but also Ptolemaieos, Orontes, Polysperhon, Perdikkas, etc), dozens of greek placenames (Pella, Aegae, Lete, Aliakmon, Argos Orestikon, etc), tens of other easily understandable as greek words for social associations, such as etairos, names of months, etc, etc. All these, combined with the fact that no other inscriptions, apart from greek ones was ever found is an unchallengeable fact not easily expalinable with naive arguments like common indoeuropean legacy. To conclude, their language although hard to classify due to lack of data, can easily explained as beloging to Greek family, rather that any other else, according to the above. Of course, there are other views too, but they can not give adequate answers why a non greek population was giving greek names to their people, cities, mountains, rivers, etc (O. Masson) or why the archaelogical researches reveals clearly greek pottery, artcrafts, architectural style, etc in their cities and graves and not something else as the findings in Illyrian and Thracian graves and cities are giving us. Kapnisma ? 17:27, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I see what you are saying, but you as Future Perf said, ancient Macedonian was not written. So the words 'discovered' in Macedonia could be Greek per se (not Macedonian), thus giving a conclusion that the macedonian language was greek, or something similar. None of what you have stated actually disproves our points

Similar situations have occurred even in not as distant history, whenever a culturally dominant people interacts with other culturs. Eg the Germanization of Boheimian nobles during the late middle ages. They spoke, legislated and wrote in German. An archeologist from the future, finding German inscriptions throughtout Bohemia, would concluded that the boheimians were Germans and spoke German, although we very well know that they are not. In fact the large majority of the masses did not even speak any German, but being largely illeterate, they might have left no traces of Boheimian language. Just an analogy (and czeque language was written, but just an illustrative point)

Now, all i was saying is that you may want to clarify the intro. Yes, ancient macedonia came to speak Koine Greek during and after Alexander the GReat, but before this, the exact nature of their language was unknown. As i said before "Theories regarding the ancient macedonian language differ, with scholars placing it either as a dialect of Ancient Greek, a distinct though related language to greek, or an altogether seperate Indo-European language. Whatever the case, it belongs to the paleo-Balkan language group, as does Greek, Thracian and Illyrian". And we may never know because of the lack of written anceint macedonian words. Many words found throughout Macedonia are pure and simply Greek, being interpreted by some scholars as proof that ancient macedonian language was greek. Hxseek 00:52, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Your arguments, Hxseek, have been responded above and if you consider yours as more solid, let's leave it to the understanding of someone else who will also read our conversation. But, risking repeating myself, I will tell you that you have failed to explain why there is not even a single one word found in any other language, apart from Greek, why the toponyms are Greek, why, finally archeology reveals greek art, greek burial customs, greek pottery, etc, etc everywhere in Macedonia. As it concerns your other argument the Germanization of Boheimian nobles during the late middle ages an archaeologist from the future wouldn't suppose they were German, because i)their names were Bohemian (while the approximately 600 Macedonian ones, saved to us, ARE Greek [Hoffmann, O. Die Makedonen. Ihre Sprache und ihr Volkstum for the entire vocabulary]), ii)their cities, rivers, mountains were in Bohemian language, not in German (while Macedonian ones ARE, again Greek), iii) the artistic style of their artcrafts, the type of their houses, their burial customs, etc, etc was not German (while Macedonian ones ARE Greek). So, you can understand what both I and the article are saying: That although the data, saved to us, is not enough, due to the above, most researchers consider Macedonian language to be Greek, or at least belonging to Greek family, but some others believe something else. Kapnisma ? 11:58, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with what you say, although there would be large differences in development of nationalist consciousness between antiquity and medieval times . Anyway, all i was trying to impress upon you is that maybe the intro could be modified. I wrote it in the discussion forum out of good faith. What I proposed aimed to incorporate the different theories re: language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hxseek (talk • contribs) 04:25, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually the argument that there are "not many" or "few" inscriptions dating before the mid 4th century does not bear any gravity, since fist of all it is a very subjective argument. Instead of saying that "there are thousands of inscriptions that prove...", we could always claim the exact truth. "That there are NO inscriptions found from the age of Macedon yet that are in a language different from Greek". This is true and until we have a number of the Greek inscriptions, we make a strong point while allowing for other inscriptions to be found, if ever...

GK1973 (talk) 02:19, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

About merging the article with Macedon

Definely no. This article contains quit detailed information about the ancient macedonians that if included in the article of Macedon will simply make the latter very long, and very difficult to follow. I thing that the current format is fine with links from the one article to the other Italiotis 17:37, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

The material could easily be shortened. There's quite a lot of unnecessary overlap with yet a third article, Ancient Macedonian language, which means the language paragraph should really just be a brief summary anyway. There's also far too many long block quotes, all of this can be reduced and summarised. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:41, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

indeed. Ancient Macedonians is little more than an argumentative pov-fork. What are "Ancient Macedonians"? They are the inhabitants of Macedon. That's it. Everything is concerned with the modern nationalist "were they Greeks?" question. Nobody seems to be interested in discussing them as a group in their own right. This is {{coatrack}}ing. Argumentative blather about Greekness of Macedonians belongs on Macedonian naming dispute, Macedonism or Greek nationalism, not here. What can we say about the Macedonians? They were Atticized from the 5th century -- like Macedon. Before the 5th century, they spoke a separate language, the Ancient Macedonian language. Hey, let us tell you about this language (about 60% of article, never mind that it has its own very detailed article). Finally, here's a list of Macedonians, and an anecdote about participation in the Olympic Games. There is nothing here that could not be either pruned as redundant, or merged into a short "population" section at Macedon. dab (𒁳) 08:33, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

If they spoke a separate language or a separate dialect is the unanswered question for both sides and has nothing to do with the modern disputes

77.49.0.219 15:52, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

and nobody seems to be interested in discussing what the Macedonians said about themselves(self-determination right)

and Not what the other groups said about them

77.49.0.219 15:58, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually all texts from any civilization of the time determined the Macedonians as Greeks. The Persians, the Romans, the Jews...

We know that the Persians called them "Greeks with broad hats"

The Romans clearly determined them as Greeks

“For if all the wars which we have carried on against the Greeks are to be despised, then let the triumph of Marcus Curius over king Pyrrhus be derided; and that of Titus Flamininus over Philip; and that of Marcus Fulvius over the Aetolians; and that of Lucius Paullus over king Perses; and that of Quintus Metellus over the false Philip; and that of Lucius Mummius over the Corinthians. (Orations of Cicero)

The Jews...

“And when he had said this to Parmenio, and had given the high priest his right hand, the priests ran along by him, and he came into the city. And when he went up into the temple, he offered sacrifice to God, according to the high priest's direction, and magnificently treated both the high priest and the priests. And when the Book of Daniel was showed him wherein Daniel declared that one of the Greeks should destroy the empire of the Persians, he supposed that himself was the person intended.” (Josephus, Book IX, 8.5)

The bible...

From The Machabees...

“1:11. And there came out of them a wicked root, Antiochus the Illustrious, the son of king Antiochus, who had been a hostage at Rome: and he reigned in the hundred and thirty-seventh year of the kingdom of the Greeks.”

“11:24. And we have heard that the Jews would not consent to my father to turn to the rites of the Greeks but that they would keep to their own manner of living and therefore that they request us to allow them to live after their own laws.”

And many others...

Actually there is only ONE argument as to the barbarism of the Macedonians from Demosthenes, and even he only claimed it ONCE in thousands of lines he wrote in many orations against Phillip...

GK1973 (talk) 02:28, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Do not merge. Article should remain as there are articles about other ancient populations. It is also important to have arguments about their origin. Seleukosa 08:33, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

No merge. This is an important article concerning the modern Macedonian naming dispute. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 13:02, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Merge? Of course not. Then we should have to merge all country articles with people articles. Do our friends from the north want to merge Republic of Macedonia with Macedonians (ethnic group)? since the latter is "an argumentative POV-fork"? Don't think so...--   Avg    19:24, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Thracian Kings and Olympic games

Were exactly are the references that Thracians Kings were talking part in the Olympic games?? Can someone provide a link or a reference so that we can verify this claim? Seleukosa (talk) 17:39, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Some newspapers are not proof or reliable references for an incredible fact that a Thracian king could participate to the Olympic Games. Please provide a real reference or if possible the quote from the original ancient text that said so! The only possibility of participating is only if he was of Greek descent and only if he was able to prove it! Being an honorable citizen of Athens would have given him the right to participate as a viewer and not as an athlete! I am deleting the passage unless a reference from a respectful historian can be found or at list the quote from the original ancient Greek text is found! Seleukosa (talk) 10:46, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Map

File:Macedon2.JPG

Ugly map

We currently have this map in the article. It's probably useful, but terribly ugly. I'd be prepared to re-draw it, I think I could produce something better. Is the content of the map as such uncontroversial? Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:03, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

You know what i think and what i will source to back it..Its ok but ugly.Also pointing out the territories would be better.Megistias (talk) 09:06, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm just talking about territories. The map will not touch on the ethnic character of either the Macedonians or any of their neighbours. This was really just a factual question: are those borders approximately correct? Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:50, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I believe i have seen the original map for this a while ago thought i cant find it right now(curses).Approximately this is the expanansion but we have to verify.Megistias (talk) 09:55, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Deleted Proof, Deleted evidence about the Greekness of Macedonians

why do you delete evidence? why is this article not including the fact that "All of the over 6000 inscriptions found in Macedonia until now are in Greek: Inscriptiones Graecae, Part X: Inscriptiones Epiri, Macedoniae, Thraciae, Scythiae. Multiple vols., Berlin. See Online Epigraphical Database"

is there a reason? why do you hide evidence like that? if there is not, can you see why we should not put this in there? how can the reader know about ancient Macedonian inscriptions? it must be there. DefendEurope (talk) 14:47, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Few of them may be relevant. The ones before 330 BC and the ones bearing peculiar Greek names or words.Catalographer (talk) 12:28, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Modern scholars section ( per WP:RS)

Modern scholars section is poor and definitely needs to be updated. We got opinion here of William Mitchell Ramsay (died 1939) and George Rawlinson (diet 1902) claiming an Illyrian or Thracian origin of ancient Macedonians while more than 80 actually modern respected and reliable scholars stating ancient Macedonians were Greek are not mentioned! I understand that perhaps it’s too much to cite 80 scholars, but we can cite 40, or even 20. The Cat and the Owl (talk) 08:46, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Yep the oldies must be removed.Megistias (talk) 08:56, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I’ve updated it. The Cat and the Owl (talk) 12:58, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Tellon from Orestis

Tellon is probably this fella "Τέλλων Μαινάλιος παίδων πύξ" Anonymi Historici (FGrH)(1139) Victores olympici(fort auctore Phlegonte vel Eratosthene)(P.oxy 222)(026),Occurence volume-Jacobi#F 3b,415,F fragment 1 line 16.

• There is a huge list of olympic winners. Megistias (talk) 15:09, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

And the name is attested as "Τέλλον" as wellMegistias (talk) 15:13, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Massive source addition.

Honestly, don't you think that this is a bit over the top? I'm sure many sources could be found to support all views in the section. Can we just stick to the ones already included? 3rdAlcove (talk) 16:13, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Though not even 1/4, it’s fine with me. The Cat and the Owl (talk) 16:15, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Beside few historians of 19th century (with no archaeological findings at that time) and modern political motivated Slav-Macedonians there aren’t any respectfully scholars who have argued against the Greek origin of the ancient Macedonians. Even Borza has agreed. Seleukosa (talk) 11:04, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Borza says maybe..Catalographer (talk) 08:43, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Primary and Secondary Sources should not be divided

If you want so many quotes without their secondary comments by scholars, this fits in wiki-quote but not in wikipedia.

Only Herodotus has stated about the origins of Macedonians and we need the secondary sources on this specific passage Catalographer (talk) 08:29, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Added John Crossland's. The Cat and the Owl (talk) 15:20, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Crossland's quote is about Perdiccas the first Argead king of Macedonians according to Herodotus. I was referring to Herodotus 1.56.1 "they settled, under the name of Macedonians, in the chain of Pindus".Catalographer (talk) 12:22, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Herodot as to the Macedonians

What Herodot said was not that :

"the Macedonians were a Greek tribe left behind during the great Dorian invasion "

He says that the Greek tribe of the Macedonians who migrated south into Peloponnesus were renamed to Dorians.

The text presented in the article reads :

“ ...for during the reign of Deucalion, Phthia was the country in which the Hellenes dwelt, but under Dorus, the son of Hellen, they moved to the tract at the base of Ossa and Olympus, which is called Histiaeotis; forced to retire from that region by the Cadmeians, they settled, under the name of Macedonians, in the chain of Pindus. Hence they once more removed and came to Dryopis; and from Dryopia having entered the Peloponnese in this way, they became known as Dorians."

Thus, the text should read that "According to Herodot, the Macedonians later migrated into (or invaded) Peloponnesus where they were named Dorians."

GK1973 (talk) 02:04, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Ancient Macedonians were Ancient Greeks?

The doubt comes from the use of the word "Philhellene" (a term reserved for non-Greeks) to refer to Ancient Macedonians (by Ancient Greeks) and from a very likely distinct origin for Ancient Macedonians and Ancient Greeks [Ref.: Eugene Borza, "In the Shadow of Olympus: The Emergence of Macedon"]. Therefore the article should focus on the description of Ancient Macedonians and leave the doubtfull Greek origins aside.Ilidio.martins (talk) 03:19, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Man, you just don't quit. You are a man on a mission, aren't you? That is a very weak argument you make, because as people have already told you, in the ancient context "Philhellene meant "Greek patriot" [4]. You've already been told this [5], but you just ignore it and keep repeating yourself over and over. Not only that, but you also have absolutely no source to back what you are saying. --Tsourkpk (talk) 04:46, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

While the article certainly could use a lot of work (notice similar opinions expressed above; some argued for a merging with Macedon since this served as mostly POV-pushing, though it's been fixed quite a bit since then), it doesn't state that the ancient Macedonians were certainly Greek. In any case, I agree that "the article should focus on the description of Ancient Macedonians". Stop acting disruptively and make some proposals, instead. ;) (Btw only Alexander I was called a philhellene to my knowledge, and the word indeed was used for Greeks as well in antiquity. In such a case, we would need secondary sources that comment on/explain the primary sources.) 3rdAlcove (talk) 09:01, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

It was indeed only Alexander I from Macedon, plus a couple of other Greeks from various places, and various other references on the same meaning in the Greek context. See Philhellenism#Philhellenes in Antiquity. NikoSilver 12:26, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

"Examining the dynamics of Macedonian relations with the Greek city-states, he suggests that the Macedonians, although they gradually incorporated aspects of Greek culture into their own society, maintained a distinct ethnicity as a Balkan people" -Waldemar Heckel, Bryn Mawr Classical Review (a review on "In the Shadow of Olympus: The Emergence of Macedon By Eugene N. Borza", so stop citing Borza. :) 212.120.7.4 (talk) 08:57, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Error ?

Before removing this part, does anyone have any reference to even one text during the early macedonian kingdom that refers to the Macedonians as barbarians? I am not aware of any such text but I want to hear any opinion on this before removing it...

"During the early kingdom, as in the case of the Aetolians, Macedonians were often regarded by the southern Greeks as "barbarians". "

GK1973 (talk) 23:47, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Even if it were sourced, mentioning it is a blatant violation of WP:UNDUE and WP:POV , because it serves only to advance the agenda that "Macedonians were not Greeks". No rational editor would include that information in their article on Macedonians, unless if they also included the subsequent remarks that "calling another Greek a 'barbarian' was a common practice among rival Greeks in ancient times", which absolutely nullifies the original intent of the first premise. I am adding a {{fact}} for now, and will be removing it aggressively on the grounds of WP:V in 3 days. Then, if someone insists in re-adding it (with a source, of course), I will add the source for the 'common practice'. NikoSilver 12:37, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, someone did revert it again so I reverted it back.

GK1973 (talk) 23:05, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Omitted/deleted words in Lede?

A sentence in the Lede currently reads, ungrammatically and ambiguously:

"The Macedonian Royal family known as the Argead dynasty claimed Greek descent and Macedonians Kings since Alexander I were allowed in the Ancient Olympic Games but contested, an athletic event in which only people of Greek origin participated[3][4]."

[Added bolding indicates problemmatical parts.] Logic and my understanding of subsequent text in the article suggest this might better read:

"The Macedonian Royal family known as the Argead dynasty claimed Greek descent, and Macedonia's Kings from Alexander I onward were allowed not only to attend but also to contest in the Ancient Olympic Games, an athletic event in which only people of Greek origin participated[3][4].

I've tried here to preserve the original flavour implied by the "but", though I would be inclined to replace "not only . . . but also" with the shorter and more positive "both . . . and". If someone with access to references [3] & [4] can confirm this version accords with them, could they perhaps make the substitution? 87.81.230.195 (talk) 08:40, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

There are many clear problems with these statements and I changed them, unfortunately anonymously but added my name i the changes.

1. obvious grammatical mistakes

2. The "but contested" part makes no sense in English though I suppose that the person who added this wanted to say that Alexander I's Greekness was contested by the rest of the Greeks. This should be mentioned in the article (clearly not there)but dear Somebody, the verdict of the Hellanodicae should also be mentioned, that he conclusively was deemed a Greek.

3. By no means did only Kings compete in the Olympics as far as the Macedonians are concerned. We have commoners who contested and won, which of course in turn shows that common Macedonian people DID contest in the Olympics. We have the names of some winners and of course there are all those whose names we do not have since they did not win. I would also point out that the Argeads were not only the royal bloodline of the "Macedonians". They were a tribe of Macedonians as Strabo clearly says (text will be provided if info disputed, maybe it should also be added in the article). The Argead royal boodline was the Temenids.

And of course there is no evidence that Macedonians did not contest in the Olympics before Aleander I. We are also told that his Greekness was disputed, but overruled. Do not forget that at the time the Macedonian kingdoms (kingdom is a wrong term, since there were more than one Macedonian tribe and more than one Macedonian kingdom) were subject to the Persians... This is why I added "at least since Alexander the I"

GK1973 (talk) 11:33, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

heavily atticized??

Could somebody explain me the point of this expression in the introduction? What does this mean and why is this here?

Does it mean that the Macedonians were heavily influenced by the Athenians by that time in terms of culture and language? Does it mean that they spoke Attic by that time and not Aeolic or Dorian? Does it mean that the Koine of the late 3rd and 2nd centuries BC was Attic?

This sentnce is clearly wrong as it stands there alone and unsupported. If someone supports it, he should make sure that it be analyzed in its proper place.

So I strongly propose its removal from the introduction, for alone it confuses rather than helps explain...

GK1973 (talk) 11:40, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I think it meant that from the 4th century onwards they adopted the attic dialect (which is the accurate sense of the phrase). The koine was developed a bit later. 194.219.26.65 (talk) 11:57, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Difference vs. Similarity

Hello. I'm fairly new to this, so please don't mind the way of handling things around :) I would just like to put this topic, so we can summarize what makes Macedonians and Greeks so similar or different. Here is a start (oh, and no poetry, like ancient citations or something, please):

- Has anyone of you ever seen a political, social or anyway else similarity between how Macedonia was organized, and how were the Greek states organized? :) Bobvo (talk) 16:41, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Bobvo, if there is a point that you want to make just make it clear, so that it can be addressed to. Just making questions and waiting for answers with no clear purpose is not what we are doing here. I could easily answer your question but this is not what we are suposed to do here, so if there is a clear point, dispute or suggestion you want to make on this article, please go on and put it here for discussion. And please, try to be as civilized and unprovocative as possible in issues that attract a lot of fanaticism, issues like the Greekness or not of ancient Macedonia.

And of course, ancient citations are the main sourves we have on ancient matters whether of interest here or not, so do not try to downgrade their immense importance, please. They form the foundation of history as we know it, since archaeology alone cannot delve into such matters. I really hope that I have misunderstood your tone and innuendos, but if you wish for yet another fruitless debate, do it in a forum suitable for this.

GK1973 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 23:28, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it doeas have a point - the whole article is about Macedonians been Greek or not, pan-hellenic games, greek language, alfa, beta, bla, bla, bla... Is this article "The orign of Ancient Macedonians"? I think it should have some info about the Macedonians, at least about social organization, religion, habbits and traditions of the Macedonians, not just this pity escuse for article, in a form of verifying that each and every time when the Macedonians are mentiond, the Greeks are put in the same sentance. I mean, WTF? Get it right! Agreee? :) 212.120.7.4 (talk) 08:14, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

So... make suggestions. What do you want to see added or what do you want to add? And please, sign your anwers. By the way, this article is about the people alone. As far as their politics, social organization etc are concerned look up the article "Macedon", which is about their political entities. I agree though that this article has to expand.

GK1973 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 19:15, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

OK, never mind the heading of this section. I would like this article, since it has a reference section bigger then the article himself, to be more concentrated on the Macedonians, not their (not)Greeknes. I hereby call upon those who wrote the article, to expand their nationalistic horizons and use those references to add something about Macedonians religion (Xantika, for example), customs, what were they eating, for example, why did they drink so much, know, something about themselves. I've read the Macedon article, but it says more about the kingdom, how do I put it... its macro-oriented :) I would like a little bit more micro-approach here, agree :) Bobvo (talk) 14:26, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

What Macedonian religion? Do you mean the dodecatheon? Who or what is Xantica? Give universally acknowledged sources or / and ancient texts. I agree with you that there should be more information on the Macedonians. So, if you have any sources you want to quote or any particular data you want to add, make your proposals here. Thanks. GK1973 (talk) 20:47, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I think that our fellow user from the Republic is referring to Xanthika (Ξανθικά), some sort of purification festival of the army that took place during the Xanthikos (Ξανθικός) month. Any more information (and addition to the article, why not) would be welcome. I believe Polybius(?) mentions specifics. 3rdAlcove (talk) 08:30, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

To expand this article

3rd Alcove, I agree that we can expand this article and make it much better than it is now. But what will be done must be done with care, for this issue is political as well as historical and affects millions of people. As far as I am concerned, I have no problem stating that there is a contest for the Greekness of the Macedonians nowadays but making it sound as though there was one in the past is very far fetched and should be VERY well supported. You mentioned two names, Isocrates, a politician who clearly believed that the Macedonians are Greeks and Thucidides who never in his histories disputed the Greekness of the Macedonians. If you want to use ancient literature (which is the correct way to go) you will have to come up with the exact extracts. Even nowadays, there is only a small minority of historians who try to support that the Macedonians were not Greeks and of these most (including E. Borza) state the assumption that they MIGHT not be Greeks, clearly stating that the evidence is against their supposition. Again, I have no problem presenting an alternate side as long as this is clearly stated, thatis that this is exactly what this is about... another theory, supported by the small minority of academics. You also pointed out that Macedon was according to Hesiod not a son of Helen, but Macedon was a grandson of Deucalion, a Greek by definition since the progenitor of the Hellenes was not Helen but Deucalion. Anyways, the dominant academic position is clearly that the Macedonians were nothing else but a Greek tribe and throughout the ancient years, there was absolutely NO dispute on this issue. There was NO historian, whether Greek, Roman, Jew or of any other origin that called the Macedoniams non Greeks or barbarians. Demosthenes used the term, but his adversary Aeschines did not. Isocrates, also a contemporary Athenian did also not call any Macedonian a barbarian. Read what Aeschynes said and you will be amazed of the Greekness he pours on the Macedonians. (He mentions common Macedonian names, talks of the common Gods and the songs the embassadors sang in Phillip's court etc)

So, should we want to add cultural information and details on the Macedonians, we have to do it in a scientific way that will not distrb historicity and if we want to mention alternative theories on the non Greekness of the Macedonians it can be easily done in a clear paragraph named "Non Greek orgin of the ancient Macedonians theory" or sth like that.GK1973 (talk) 16:26, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with GK. I also do not have any objection to include the minority scholarship disputing the Greekness of Ancient Macedonians. But it must be clear that it is a minority, and that the majority has certain specific conclusions. 3rdAlcove non-consensual edits obscured, instead of clarifying this issue. On the issue of Demosthenes, let me just say a few things: Yes, he called Macedonians "barbarians", and I mention that clearly, without hiding anything (and why, should we, Greeks, be afraid of the truth?) in his wiki-article I rewrote, and brought to FA status. But Demosthenes' characterization had mainly a "cultural" substance and meaning. Macedonians were the "uncivilized" compared with the "civilized" Athenians, Spartans etc., who deserve and are honored to be called "Greeks". Demosthenes did not make a genealogy research neither referred to the "Greekness" of the Macedonians. According to his view, they were not "Hellenes" because they were not so civilized to constiture members of the "hellenic civilization". That is why they are "barbarians". Actually Philip is a "barbarian". His criticism is concentrated on him; not on the whole Macedonian nation. And, 3rdAlcove, do not underestimate the personal Philip-Demosthenes rivalry; two bitter enemies ready to accuse each other of the most horrible things. Being a "barbarian" is just one of these horrible groundless accusations; there were more by both men and their "puppets". Tsatsos correctly points out that "Demosthenes regarded as Greeks only those who had reached the cultural standards of south Greece and he did not take into consideration ethnological criteria."

In general, I share the worries of 3rdAlcove about the article. But is he willing to undertake the task as a whole, and not sporadically? Is he willing to research this minority scholarship, and provide the proper references and citations? If yes, I am more than willing to help him with my experience in upgrading articles (if this experience matters at all). But non-consensual edits non-supported with material and references do not help. On the other side, co-operation and mutual work on the article could do miracles.--Yannismarou (talk) 10:30, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

As far as Demosthenes is concerned he of course called Philip a barbarian, twice in all his speeches (another evidence that the characterization was nothing but an insult since his speeches against Philip and the Macedonians were numerous indeed). Of course he is also called a barbarian by Aeschines, his political opponent in Athens, who says that Demosthenes is a barbarian on his mother's side. This has nothing to do with Demosthenes's words but helps make clear how the Greeks sometimes used the term to insult rather than really characterize someone's Greekness. There are numerous examples of Greek writers calling other Greeks barbarians. What makes the difference is

a. the frequency the term is used (hundreds or thousands of times concerning Romans, Persians, Illyrians etc) b. the context (usually the term barbarian is used not as an insult but as a determinant only and bears no ill meaning)

So one has to ask how many times are the Macedonians called barbarians in ancient AND medieval texts? The answer is : too few to mention... The Macedonians are mentioned in ancient and medieval texts as many times (if not more) as Spartans and Thebans together... Yet, apart from some political speeches of Demosthenes's times the Macedonians are NEVER called barbarians or given ANY other history or prehistory than totally Greek. They always are spoken to in Greek, they always speak Greek (if you read Arrianos's testament of Philotas' trial it is clear that the Macedonian "tongue/dialect" is Greek). Anyways, if needed we can keep on talking anout the Greekness or non Greekness of the Macedonians for countless pages. The important thing is that the academic community as a whole acknowledges the Greekness of the Macedonians and that is why their history and culture is taught universally under the term "Classical Greek Studies". This is proof enough that at least for the time being the Grekness of the Macedonians can be disputed only as an alternative theory NOT accepted but by the great minority of historians and archaeologists.

So... let's get to the point. Points to be analyzed according to my opinion are :

A. the different tribes of the ancient Macedonians. B. their origin as attested by the ancients and archaeology. C. cultural events taking place in ancient Macedonia as well as cultural events the Macedonians took part in outside their borders. D. their religion (according to my sources Greek in all aspects, if anybody has to add something different he can always procure sources) E. their language as attested by texts and archaeology (again if somebody has sources about some non Greek lamguage he should procure sources). The work of those FYROMian engineeres about the Rosetta Stone is NOT accepted by the international academic community (which persists supporting that the middle text is middle demotic egyptian) and we can discuss it but it can hardly be used as evidence, though the thory that the Macedonians did not speak Greek or spoke a "barbarous" Greek dialect can be analyzed. F. any info on art, foods, science, technology would also be welcome.

Anything else?

GK1973 (talk) 12:55, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Concerning Thucydides: Do not forget that Thucydides called:"barbarians" even the Epirotes who resided in Dodona, which was considered by many (as Aristotle) the cradle of Greeks.The point I am trying to make is, Thucydides is not disputing the Greekness of anyone, rather the level of civilisation they had in comparison to Athens.--Michael X the White (talk) 15:21, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

I already said that Thucidides DID NOT call or anytime hint that the Macedonians were barbarians... NEVER... I don't know how something like that could be said by someone who has read Thucidides. He even clearly differentiaites when he talks about an army of barbarians and another one of Macedonians...

GK1973 (talk) 22:25, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Sure, no problem. --Michael X the White (talk) 14:51, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Disamb note, clean up tag etc.

3rdAlcove changed the disamb note at the top of the article from "This article is about the people of ancient Greek; for the unrelated modern Slavic ethnic group see Macedonians (ethnic group)." to "This article is about the people of classical antiquity; for the unrelated modern Slavic ethnic group see Macedonians (ethnic group)."

It is definitely a minor issue, and therefore I do not intend to allow myself to get involved in an edit war for this matter. Nevertheless, I do not understand why it is so bad to make clear what the scholars' community and the historians diachrinically agree on, that the ancient Macedonians were ancient Greeks (note that I do not say "Greeks" but "ancient Greeks"). This is the scholars consensus on them, as the scholars' consensus for the modern "Macedonians" (feel free to remove the quotation marks if you do not like them) is that they are Slavs. So, honestly I do not understand the rationale of this change. We change the note because of Demosthenes, one or two more historians saying that "maybe" they were not Greeks, and some groundless, vague and inconsistent criticisms of the established theory coming from fYROM? I bring this issue here for further input by other editors. I think GK1973 comprehensively exposed the diachronic consensus on the Ancient Macedonians, and if 3rdAlcove questions anything, and has sources and material to enlighten us, I am all ears.

About the clean-up tag I cannot disagree, and I first said that the article needs a lot of work. And I also stressed that if 3rdAlcove who correctly points out its flaws is willing to undertake the task, I'll definitely help him. Or even better, we can collectively with GK and any other interested editor undertake the task.--Yannismarou (talk) 07:39, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

This is precisely the point at issue. The argument of the Macedonians here is that ancient Greece ended at Thessaly; I find it difficult to dismiss this entirely when Pausanias supports it. I would not object to Greek in the article myself, but I do recognize that there are two sides; the dab header is not the place to make these assertions.

But the inhabitants of classical antiquity is no improvement; that's everybody in the ancient world. The Macedonians were a people/populus/ethnos, and if we need a noun, it would be hard to find a better one; I do not see that it invades the central question at all. So were the Ionians. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:17, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

• As for cleanup: holds a record does not mean tells or asserts or relates; it means that Herodotus either attained an unparallelled athletic score, or has a phonodisc in his hands. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:23, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I really fail to see the problem here... Noone disagrees with the fact that there is a small minority of academians who support that the Macedonians were not Hellenes themselves, even though they were hellenized and considered by many, especially Non Hellenes (like Romans, Jews and Persians) as Hellenes. As long as this is clear there is no Greek who would disagree with mentioning arguments and hypotheses on that point. BUT, it has to be also accepted by those who do not view the Macedonians as Hellenes that their point of view is ONLY SUPPORTED BY A MINORITY and is not the "new", "modern" or "prevalent" point of view. And then of course comes the question of how we should adress a dispute such as this. The answer is also clear. ANY serious encyclopedia over the world bases its articles on the prevalent position of the academic community and mentions the existance of other positions, which can be more analytically discussed in independent articles (like "The Non-Hellenic origin of the ancient Macedonians hypothesis"). Although there will be people from FYROM who will greatly disagree with this point of view, although I do not claim that their point of view should be hidden or buried, we could also dispute so many articles with theories such as "the Italians have nothing to do with the ancient Romans, since for centuries their cities were occupied by various German tribes", that "the Romans were actually Greeks, a fact they themselves attested", that "Hitler was a very ethical and well minded person who is brutally slandered by the victor's propaganda", that "the people of FYROM who call themselves Macedonians are in reality Bulgarians", "that the ancient Greeks were black" etc etc etc... All of these arguments have been uttered and are supported by actually MORE people and academians than those who support the non-Greekness of the ancient Macedonians. Is this what we want? To NEVER be able to write anything because some wish that their opinion was supported by more people? We can argue for pages and pages about the issue and it would be evident, as it is to any editor here who occupied himself with this issue even for a small amount of time, that the Hellenic origin and self identification of the ancient Macedonians is by far the most prevalent theory and is supported by the huge majority of evidence, whether archaeological or historical. This is why the academic community places the teaching of the ancient Macedonian history and culture under the Classical GREEK studies. Does this mean that the other theory does not exist? Of course not. It should be mentioned BUT it can't be treated as equal or we run a HUGE risk of having MOST articles in Wikipedia disputed and rewritten. So, friends from FYROM or supporters of this theory, place your arguments in writing and make an article to really present this theory and dear Greeks / Hellenes and the supporters of the other theory, make an article that will answer to these arguments. Then we can just stop this idiocy and refer to the ancient Macedonians as Greeks (per the prevalent academic fashion) BUT always and at all times mention this other theory and redirect everybody to it. I am really tired of having to be so careful not to disturb this minority by refraining to mention the prevalent historical point of view or having to persuade others that the other theory should also be mentioned...

As for the "inhabitants" of Classical Antiquity, it is a word that would be clearly wrong since there are inhabitants in a clearly defined SPACE and not time... There can be an inhabitant of a city or country or a house but not one of the medieval times or the 19th century...

GK1973 (talk) 23:14, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

The real Macedonians and the map

A part of Albania and Albanian Macedonians territories including Greek territories where Albanians live belong to the territory of ancient Macedonia please refer to this map ,the name Macedonia is correct if Albanians are representative of former ancient population [6] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.78.64.246 (talk) 20:07, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

??? I make no sense here... Could you please rephrase?

GK1973 (talk) 05:18, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

About ancient Macedonians

I have reinstsated the phrase "people of ancient Greece". The reason is that first of all Macedonians existed before classical antiquity. The second is that Macedon was part of the ancient Greece and as such Macedonians were people of ancient Greece. The ethnicity of ancient macedonians is stressed extensively in the main text. Further Macedon was part of ancient Greece, and still is part of modern greece, collapsing with the modern greek provice of macedonia. By allowing a grey issue about that is equal to raising issues about the rights of Greece to its northern province and as such to indirectly support irridentitism against the northern greek province which is absolutely no NPOV. So in order to maintain a NPOV we have to maintain the phrase "people of ancient greece".213.249.63.38 (talk) 05:25, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

That's really pushing it. Wikipedia is not the vehicle for Greek grudges against the Macedonians to be played out, and many of your statements are not entirely supported by scholarship. "Of classical antiquity" is fine. Moreschi (talk) (debate) 06:46, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Greek grudges is quite offensive and your point of view are extremely no NPOV. I demand your apology as this is not a place of trolling. Second the issue of ancient Macedonians are completely unrelated to the modern issue. Whether some 2,500 years ago macedonians were an original greek tribe or became hellenised at 5th century BC i cannot see how it is related to the modern slavic ethnic group. The way the whole issue is presented simply supports indirect irridentitism against northern greece. And it is completely no NPOV. I didn t add ancient greek people but people of ancient greece.This is very different. Ancient Macedonians and macedon is an unrelated issue to the greek -ethnic macedonian dispute. I expect some more arguments and not illiterate insults. Thank you. 213.249.63.38 (talk) 08:09, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Please have a look at Ancient Macedonian language. The relationship of the Ancient Macedonians and their language to the Greeks of that era is a highly ambiguous one and is not as straightforward as you are making out. Moreschi (talk) (debate) 08:26, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi. As I said it is related to that. Whether they were a people of pure greek origin or they bacame hellenised and finally absorbed by the greeks 2,500 years ago it is irrelevant. The same for their language. Ethnic Macedonian leadership admited the same : "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia." From Kiro Gligorov President of Macedonia at Toronto Star newspaper, March 15, 1992 We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians." From Kiro Gligorov President of Macedonia at the Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992, p. 35 The rest of the approaches are no NPOV. Nonetheless I shall not revert it again but instaed I would like to hear some more opinions based on the previous statement as well which is very scholar at the same time.213.249.63.38 (talk) 08:32, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

What is highly ambiguous about the ancient Macedonian language???? Come on people... Again... Thousands of inscriptions have been found all over Macedonia and her dominions that were ascribed to Macedonians. ALL are plain Greek. This "dispute" only arose because of a political agenda. For thousands of years the ONLY dispute was about the exact linguistic attributes of this dialect and NOT about whether it was Greek or not. Even if you support this theory that has the Macedonians use one language orally and another in writing (???), you have to admit that the universally accepted conclusion of the VAST MAJORITY of international universities and academics is that the Macedonians spoke and wrote GREEK. So, when you say "highly disputed", you actually talk of a bery small fragment of the academic community, whose opinion of coursde should be mentioned BUT IN NO CASE can be presented as equally important or equally accepted. As for the issue of the Macedonians being here porteayed as Greeks, well... whether you like it or not, this is what the academic community in almost in its entirety supports. The Macedonian culture and history are all studied under the term Classical GREEK Studies, (Romans are not...).

GK1973 (talk) 12:45, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

And further the discussion concerns a language prior to the adoption of attic greek at the 5th century BC thus 2,500 years ago. Whats the issue here? That suddenly 2,500 years later some slavic youngsters decided to change history and for that we have to be PC and turn our sight from the truth? Because their prudent leadership only 15 years ago were admitng the obvious :

"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia." From Kiro Gligorov President of Macedonia at Toronto Star newspaper, March 15, 1992

So what is PC those days? To support a forged irridentitism or stick with facts. Read the relative articles at Britannica and get a slight grip of historical accuracy.Melathron (talk) 09:40, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Albanian Macedonians to day represent former antic population of Macedonia who spoke the Hellenic doric or epirotic dialect, a thraco-illyrian language from where to day Albanian language originates, but higher classes used the koinne dialect of Atiki. In case that anyone knows that then I am the one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.78.64.246 (talk) 10:54, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Uh-oh, this has gotten ridiculous. Even Dodona (the above IP) chimed in with his wild theories... 3rdAlcove (talk) 11:06, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

“Wild theories” can be nothing more wild then this claim I do not see anything wild , why is that??--Macedoni from Korca (talk) 11:22, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Demosthenos and the Macedonians

... not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honors...

You know this, right? This is today considered ba Greeks as a political acting. Why isn't, for example, Alexander I of Macedon participation in the Olympics considered as political acting? I'm willing to write something about this :) Bobvo (talk) 16:51, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

What does this have to do with anything? You take your best argument as to the non-Greekness of the Macedonians (actually your only one) and you debase it to absurdity... What do the insults a political enemy of someone have to do with Herodotus's attestation that the Argeads are Greeks as far as he knows, as the Hellanodices also accepted? What political move, especially to a kingdom that was not consideed strong at the time? What you are saying asks for much writing, but it obviously is not your goal. So, if there is any real question as to anything that has to do with the ancient Macedonians, their Greekness or non-Greekness you are welcome to ask. If you only wanted to write about Demosthenes then you did and the meaning of his words are clear to someone who has read Greek literature. Can you answer why Demosthenes only calls his rival a barbarian twice in all his hundreds of lines against him? Why his contemporary Athenian orators, like Aeschines and Isocrates talk about and to the Macedonians and NEVER call them thus or anyway suggest that they are not Hellenes? Why he was accused by ancient Greek historians for slandering Philip and why he was himself accused of being a barbarian by Aeschines? And of course, even if his words should be taken literary (a fact that has been denied by the acadenic community, even by those who do not deem the Macedonians as Greeks), then how should one take the words of your top politicians (President Gligorov, Prime Minister Georgievski or Foreign Minister Malevski), people of far more political weight than orator Demosthenes? Anyways, if you have any serious queations, I will be happy to answer to the best of my knowledge.

GK1973 (talk) 23:38, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

@the OP troll: Demosthenes is already mentioned in the article. Isocrates who considered Philip a fellow Greek isn't, though...hmm, something should be done about that. 3rdAlcove (talk) 12:11, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Makednos

I think there is a slight confusion in the text. The ancient greek tribes are not tracing their origin only through Hellen in the hesiod theogony but through Deucalionids. Do not forget the name greeks come from Graecus a son of Pandora II , a sister of hellen and daughter of deucalion. Henceforth the argument that makednos might be excuded from the greeks should he be concidered a son of hellen 's sister Thya is not a valid one, that why the correction. Melathron (talk) 18:54, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

This is correct. I will prepare a detailed answer to this in the next days... now I have to go sunbathing...

GK1973 (talk) 20:07, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Doric in Macedonia

Yes, 3D Alcove. Except for the Pella katadesmos there are many other inscriptions in Doric although you are right that the majority of the epigraphy is in the (Attic) Koine, since they are dated later than the mid 3rd century BC. Even in that, though, there are many instances of Doric and Aeolic elements like in the conjugation of names. Actually the Pella Katadesmos is not the oldest Doric inscription found in Macedonia. Check for epigraphies found at Elimeia (dated as far back as 500 BC), in Aiane, in Aiges etc and of course there are the Derveni Papyrus, which is the oldest papyrus in Greek ever found (6th century BC, it also has Doric elements in its scripts), as well as at least three other katadesmoi etc. And of course thousands are unclassified Greek, since they are simple names or words that could be given in any Greek dialect. Let us not forget that Dorian or Aeolian are not a different language and share most of their forms and syntaxes with the Attic or the Koine Attic (which is also not the same thing as traditional Attic).

GK1973 (talk) 00:30, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

source about Macedonian prehistory

they talk about Mycenaean civilization there. see:[7] interesting for some, i guess.150.140.226.157 (talk) 09:01, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

No they actually speak about the presence of Mycenean Pottery which is a totally different thing. LH (Mycenean pottery) has been unearthed throughout the Mediterranean (Sicily, Egypt, Asia Minor etc.) and its presence is not always easy to interpret. There are of course scholars that understand the existence of LH pottery in northern Greece as an indication of permanent Mycenean presence (see what Karamitrou Mentesidi says in footnote 11) but this issue is far from resolved. In recent years evidence of Mycenean presence has been accumulating but the question of its significance remains moot for the time being. BTW the phrase "The excavations have unearthed the oldest pieces of black and white pottery, characteristic of the tribes of northwest Greece, discovered so far" is rather non sensical in archaeological terms. The term "Black and white" pottery is rather generic and has no particular meaning to my knowledge. The local "Mattpainted" (αμαυρόχρωμη) pottery (sometimes imitating LH mycenean prototypes) is what was probably meant, but this type of pottery is still not very well understood and documented. The source provided for this "Black and White pottery" seems to be somekind of popular archaeology documentary that shouldn't really be there after all.--Giorgos Tzimas (talk) 11:52, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

first of all I didn't say what it means so don't accuse me of so and neither should you cause that would be OR. i just mentioned that generally. of course the archaeologists and historians must have a way of working and deciding whether a culture is Greek or just a culture that had relations with Greeks150.140.225.175 (talk) 16:09, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

You probably miscontrued my response because there was not even a hint of accusation. I simply elaborated on the importance of LH pottery unearthed in Northern Greece.--Giorgos Tzimas (talk) 23:43, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

ok. =]150.140.225.175 (talk) 09:32, 26 October 2008 (UTC)