User talk:FloNight

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"Every blade in the field,
Every leaf in the forest,
Lays down its life in its season,
As beautifully as it was taken up."
Henry David Thoreau

Puzzled

I am puzzled and frankly a bit offended by this comment on RFAr: "As pointed out by bainer, since the Community has not reached consensus on a policy/guideline on the topic, we have repeated cycles of the issue causing content disputes. The Community needs to find a way to write this policy and not look to the Committee to do it through Committee ruling that causes a back door policy decision that one side can link to in future discussions."

I am hard-pressed, with the exception of Randomran, to find anyone commenting on this request who has been more involved than I have in developing a consensus about notability. There is an active policy discussion on this, and I've worked hard on it - unlike, frankly, any of the arbcom or TTN. I filed this request because mass deletion requests are an active hindrance to general consensus, because deletion is a hostile process. My assumption was that this reasoning was why TTN's previous engagement in this behavior - editing purely to merge articles and delete them without any attempt at discussion - was sanctioned. Because it was an active impediment to consensus building.

Even if the arbcom wishes to get away from this issue and not issue any further rulings on it - a change of policy I can understand, even if I find it deeply regrettable, I greatly resent the claim that, by bringing this request, I am somehow looking to the Committee to create a back door policy.

I recognize that the committee is deeply disinclined to step into any issue involving notability (though I would ask where, in the absence of the committee, they foresee any sort of leadership on this issue coming from). But I wish that the committee would simply say that instead of accusing me of trying to back door policy when all I was doing was asking the committee to step in on an issue they had previously ruled upon. That accusation is unwarranted and offensive. Phil Sandifer (talk) 16:46, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Given that the Committee answered a query about the situation already, I do not think that our response is surprising. Reading the comments of the users on the request page, I note that as usual, the editors involved in the situation see the issue somewhat differently than other users that are not involved. FloNight♥♥♥ 17:39, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I was, it should be noted, unaware of the previous query - I had inquired idly on the mailing list as to why TTN had not been brought back to arbcom for his behavior, and nobody indicated that the answer was "actually, he has." Indeed, Matthew Brown seemed unaware that he had, and the archiving for rejected requests does not make finding out key pieces of information like that terribly easy.

As for the comment about involved users, I'm not sure what you're driving at. I am barely involved, frankly - I've had no real dealings with TTN. I mostly discovered the situation when I was trying to get some data on the practical question of what AfD does and doesn't keep, and discovered his nominations, which I found somewhat problematic. So again, I'd have to say that I don't feel like I should be lumped in with the group you're trying to lump me in with. Phil Sandifer (talk) 21:32, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

In my view you're involved because, as you state above, you have a stronger opinion than the average user about the issue. Some users feel that many Afds are needed to keep the non-notable articles thinned out. You see deletion as a hostile process and feel that the Afds are a hindrance. FloNight♥♥♥ 21:47, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Your determination to lump users into easily defined categories in lieu of actually looking at what is being said is regrettable. Phil Sandifer (talk) 13:16, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you

While I still disagree with you on the matter with Steve, thank you for taking the time to explain the situation with me. I know I can come off as.. demanding.. and being an arb is not an easy job. I greatly appreciate it. -- Ned Scott 00:23, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the thoughtful reply. :-) Take care, FloNight♥♥♥ 19:55, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Happy FloNight's Day!

User:FloNight has been identified as an Awesome Wikipedian, and therefore, I've officially declared today as FloNight's day! For being such a beautiful person and great Wikipedian, enjoy being the Star of the day, dear FloNight! Peace, Rlevse ~ A record of your Day will always be kept here.

Thank you. This is very kind of you. FloNight♥♥♥ 10:20, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

For a userbox you can add to your userbox page, see User:EVula/Userboxes/Happy Me Day! and my own userpage for a sample of how to use it. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:43, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Milhist

Hi! I see you're a member of the American Civil War task force but not of the Military history wikiproject itself. Would you like to sign up? You can do so here. Thanks in advance, --ROGER DAVIES ^talk 11:13, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the link, I added my name. FloNight♥♥♥ 11:43, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you :) Here's the standard Welcome message. Please delete it if it's telling you how to suck eggs :)

Hi, and welcome to the Military history WikiProject! As you may have guessed, we're a group of editors working to improve Wikipedia's coverage of topics related to military history.

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If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask one of the project coordinators, or any experienced member of the project, and we'll be happy to help you. Again, welcome! We look forward to seeing you around! --ROGER DAVIES ^talk 13:15, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Your suggestion

Per your suggestion I've filed Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Hemanshu, but since he hasn't responded in over a year to inquiries, I'm not exactly optimistic on him responding to it. MBisanz ^talk 01:59, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Ginger Jolie deletion

I urge you to reconsider your stance. Your comments regarding DRV are particularly inapposite. Since the Committee has established the policy committing a decision to the discretion of a single, self-selected adminstrator when the community is divided (and, in theory, even if it is not), the decision in a matter like this is procedurally correct, whatever its outcome. This is a problem created by the Arbitration Committee, and only it can resolve it. As you accurately state, this is a "community matter," and a major part of the problem is that the decision was taken from the hands of the community and decided by the preferences of a single, self-selected administrator. Minos P. Dautrieve (talk) 12:49, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Case needs intervention

I request some urgent arbitrator's intervention into the pages of Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Piotrus 2 and I am leaving this same note to all four Arbitrators who commented on the case so far.

The pages of the case have deteriorated beyond reasonable due to the conduct of some of the case participants. Please take a look at this new section of evidence for details. Yes, many bitter cases are filled with nonsense claims but there must be a limit to how much outright crankery can be tolerated at the ArbCom cases without any action taken.

Case' pages being turned into a total mess adversely affects the chances of the cohesive outcome. Too much nonsense in the cases pages buries the constructive entries and make the whole pages unreadable or incomprehensible. This leads to the arbitrators' non-participation in the discussions, which, in turn, brings, and I am not going to sugar-coat this, the case's outcomes being often too disconnected from actual concerns raised at its pages. This is why, I am calling for a rather unusual remedy to be applied to a case itself.

I would like to request that some aggressive clerk-like work is applied to the pages of the case: the workshop and the evidence. This cannot be left to clerks since this requires application of the discretion on the cases merits beyond the freedom given to clerks. If you could go over the current evidence and workshop pages and aggressively remove the patent nonsense and senseless rants (including my own entries if they are perceived as such), the benefit would be two-fold. First, it would make case pages more readable and, thus, more useful. Second, it would send a strong message to all parties that their conduct in the case is being monitored and may have consequences that would, hopefully, switch everyone to a more constructive mode. When looking at the pages you would see at once that the nonsense there is abundant and its presence disrupts the case.

I am not requesting any sanctions against anyone at this point. All I am asking is to return some normalcy to the case' pages.

Thank you in advance. --Irpen 21:59, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

After requesting "ethical_conduct" from ArbCom, Irpen found my evidence so important that he decided to intervene contrary to his own request. I replied here (please see "bare facts").Biophys (talk) 16:04, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for that. Every arbitrator or a clerk is very welcome to remove anything from my evidence.Biophys (talk) 19:51, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Comment on proposal posted

I am leaving this note at the talk pages of four arbitrators who so far commented on the Piotrus_2 arbcom. Just letting you know that I posted a general comment on the workshop proposal by Kirill Lokshin to the workshop's talk page. Regards, --Irpen 19:11, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I'll look. FloNight♥♥♥ 19:21, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. Just giving you heads up that I responded to the followup question by one of your colleagues at the workshop's talk here. --Irpen 20:10, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Martinphi

Flonight, I am not Science Apologist. You seem to be mistaking me for him.

After my FIRST post EVER to Arbcom about Martinphi (unless you count the request for clarification on the Paranormal case to be specifically about Martinphi), you have publicly stated thee Arbcom knows full well my opinion, and I should shut up and let other people speak. This was my first time speaking on the matter. I am NOT Science Apoologist, I am not under any Arbcom restrictions for POV-pushing. Would you care to retract or rewrite your comment.person, you know. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 19:53, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

g'day Flo

Hi Flo - I hope you're well, and I thought I'd swing by here with a request re the User:Steve Crossin matter - I feel like I've dug around in quite a lot of detail at this point (you can see here what I've read up on), and in particular I found this diff very useful in clearing stuff up.

I also noticed that the WP:RFAR page is kinda quiet at the mo. so I thought I'd strike (again!) while the iron was, well, cold I guess :-)

I've chatted with Steve a bit about this, and it's clear to me that he would like to edit again as soon as possible, and if banned, would like to be able to make a statement of some sort (I feel fairly sure that others might wish to comment too, so perhaps a semi-formal 'evidence', 'workshop' process is actually a reasonable fit?). This isn't my call, of course, though - but what I would ask is that the 'internal committee vote' you refer to is formally certified 'on wiki' - some uncertainty remains in my mind over this, and it would no doubt help others to maintain Wikipedia:Editing_restrictions#Placed_by_the_Arbitration_Committee (I'm happy to update that page when this is cleared up etc. :-)

I'm happy to talk further about why I believe this is the best course of action for both the project, and for Steve - essentially it boils down to my belief that clarity is kind :-)

huge thanks for helping with this one in any way possible! cheers, Privatemusings (talk) 22:32, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

ping :-) (and there's a related chat on my talk page now, too :-) best, Privatemusings (talk) 23:33, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Proposed decision - Abtract-Collectonian

In under 19 hours, this case will be two weeks old soon. All proposals pass, and one move to close has been made. If you could kindly hop on over to this page and vote on closing, that'd be great. Cheers :) Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:45, 28 October 2008 (UTC)  Done

Can't get much more prompt than that - appreciate it (and your thoughts, as always). :D Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:53, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

No problem. FloNight♥♥♥ 18:22, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

You got email

White Cat, look for an email from me. FloNight♥♥♥ 15:34, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

My response and the only comment I will make on the matter is utter disappointment at arbcom. The ban was placed by the community, not arbcom. It would be strange for arbcom to lift a ban arbcom did not even went as far as endorsing. Arbcom did not even accept the Jack Merridew arbcom case as "he was already community blocked". The user has been indef banned like three times and you are willing to lift that. It hasn't even been a year. I do want to remind arbcom that they went out of their way to even talk about lifting my three-year-old mediation ban. To an untrained eye (my eye) it seems like arbcom only and only rewards extremely poor conduct such has harassment going on for years. -- Cat ^chi? 07:01, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

While I do not normally expect prompt responses, I'd welcome a response before arbcom decides on the matter. -- Cat ^chi? 18:38, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Since arbcom is not willing to be the solution to this problem and insists on being the source it, I have brought this matter into Jimbo's attention. I do not know if he will get involved. I hope he does. I am tired of dealing with this issue which will soon celebrate its fifth anniversary as of 12 May 2009. -- Cat ^chi? 21:55, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

White Cat, I'll listen to Jimbo's thoughts, of course. But if he can edit without bother you, then I think we should let him come back. Jack Merridew will be under editing restrictions that will keep him completely away from you and from commenting about you. One or more experienced users will be monitoring his contributions to make sure that he is not bothering you in any way. I made the restrictions strict in this way because of the problems that you had in the past. I think we should give it a chance to work, truly. FloNight♥♥♥ 22:08, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

We already tried that in commons. That didn't quite stop him. After his ban from en.wikipedia his first few edits on commons were stalking which has seemingly stopped. He doesn't make any edits there anymore.

This user had no useful contributions. He dedicated his time in removing my work. Weather it is Turkey related topics, or weather it is Anime related topics or any other topics I care about like mass removing episode and character articles. His ban here has not lasted half a year. Has it been quarter of a year?

Arbcom wasn't willing to lift my mediation ban. Why is arbcom removing Jack Merridew's ban? Is he more worthy to the community than I? I really want to know.

I demand arbcom to document their reasoning in detail. Why am I even having this conversation with arbcom? Jack Merridew is a sanctioned troll and sockpuppeter. He was convicted multiple times in harassing multiple users - of which at least three times by arbcom. He had absolutely no useful contribution for the past few years aside from an edit pattern that closely resembles User:TTN who IIRC was banned by arbcom for his edit pattern.

-- Cat ^chi? 22:38, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

I still do want to know why arbcom isn't willing to lift my mediation ban yet is considering lifting Jack Merridews indef ban. After all he was the very reason I got that ban. He interfered with every mediation attempt I made. -- Cat ^chi? 04:17, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Your mediation ban is a separate issue, but I will be glad to raise it with the Arbitration Committee now. FloNight♥♥♥ 10:27, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

You may want to review the evidence and rephrase that statement. Arbcom did a poor job back then. I want all the relevant evidence reviewed.

• My prohibition from mediating was passed 4 to 3 #Coolcat prohibited from mediating and four workshop sections were linked to the rationale. I'll give you a snapshot
  • #Mediation and opposition: Links to this diff where Jack Merridew (aka Davenbelle) did not even let me adjust section depths. This is evidence of Davenbelle stalking. I had no vested interest in the article Javier Solana yet Davenbelle followed me to that article and completely disrupted my mediation attempt with his constant revert waring even over the most minor issue documented in this paragraph.
  • #Coolcat's status as a mediator: I self nominated myself to MedCom on 4 April 2005. Among the people opposing was Jack Merridew (aka Davenbelle).
  • #Coolcat's mediation efforts at Greco-Turkish relations: Revert war by Davenbelle over my format edits. I tried to use a color scheme and Jack Merridew (aka Davenbelle) revert wared to remove it. He later revert wared over a typo fix I had. To date he made one and only one edit to the article. Clearly his interest was not the article in question but instead was my involvement.
  • #Nanking Massacre: Jack Merridew (aka Davenbelle) was of course involved but so was Karl Meier (aka Stereotek) who revert wared over thumbnail sizes with me. Fadix (aka many aliases: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan#Blocks for violation of revert parole: Didodo, Rodolui, Drosophilawhodoestnotfl, Anatolmethanol) later joined the joint harassment.
    • Fadix got a one year ban on 11 April 2007 which was extended until 25 February 2009 due to the abusive use of sockpuppets. The only relevance this has to my case is that this is was one of the three guys that interfered with my mediation attempt.

In conclusion Jack Merridew (aka Davenbelle) has interfered with each and every one of my mediation attempts even on articles he made no contribution at all (Javier Solana). The "separate issue" isn't as separate as it seems to be. The evidence speaks for itself. All arbcom needs to do is look at it.

-- Cat ^chi? 15:42, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

You know, let me tell you what is going to happen.

• Arbcom will lift the ban of Jack Merridew. We certainly need more people like him on the project.
• Arbcom will not actually discuss my mediation ban. We certainly do not want anyone like me on the project the slightest bit of courtesy.
• Jimbo will not even get involved. Imagine helping out in a complicated - yet not so complicated case. I can understand his reasoning. Sure. I respect what he is doing. But if arbcom is this incompetent and unwilling to be the solution who else can I go to?

Arbcom is very predictable with their incompetence. So I am sure all three things I stated above will become a reality.

Now tell me, why should I or anyone even care about obeying any policy or guideline?

• Evidently arbcom will never enact any long term sanctions. At most arbcom would blocks for something like three months...
• Arbcom will go out of their way to incompetently ignore any and all relevant evidence even when the case is a slam dunk. All arbcom needed to do was read the evidence - which arbcom did not even glance at. The community (non-arbcom) banned Jack Merridew forever. And once that was over arbcom is going out of it's way to allow the freak back and by doing so arbcom overrules the community ban probably for the first time in wiki history (we aren't talking about a ban by a single user but by multiple users). Arbcom is only and only helping once side of the dispute and that side clearly was never me. Not in 2005, not in 2006, not in 2007 and of course not in 2008. The fact that I am listing four years says something, doesn't it?

The sad part of it all is that this isn't the first time. I had to deal with the nonsense by MARMOT spoofing IPs and all. Brion has a report on it. I'll let you find it but I know you will not even look at it so there really is no point in me presenting a link. MARMOT too was given a second chance and he used it to make my day miserable. For that he was later unblocked. Fortunately he left the community or else I am sure arbcom would go out of their way to help MARMOT continue to be the source of annoyance.

You know, I am not sure why arbcom is committing this illogical and disruptive behavior. Why is it that arbcom is so unwilling to be a part of a solution and going out of it's way to be the very source of the problem? I do not know what motivates arbcom to act this irrationally.

Maybe what prompted this nonsense is me trying to help arbcom with the CSI thing. Clearly, arbcom doesn't need any help as they do just fine in ignoring presented evidence.

-- Cat ^chi? 18:47, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

On an unrelated note, I would recommend arbcommers to comment on the WP:VPP#A wiki equavalent of CSI (developing idea) thread. The proposal should be shaped to meet the needs of arbcom above everything else after all. -- Cat ^chi? 07:01, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Forget about it. Arbcom doesn't care about evidence. What good would it do if the evidence is collected by impartial parties if arbcom is going to ignore it. -- Cat ^chi? 18:47, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Courthouse project

We're down to needing only five more courthouse pictures of Kentucky, that "Retired Username" started. It was 11, but I took six this past week. Thought you might want to know.--Gen. Bedford ^{his Forest} 00:31, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Fantastic. :-) This was a great project. With the large number of counties in rural areas, the driving time to cover the State made the Courthouse project a formidable endeavor. I appreciate the hard work that you and "Retired Username" put in to it. FloNight♥♥♥ 15:13, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I plan to take pictures of Nicholasville's ACW monument and Camp Nelson on Wednesday.--Gen. Bedford ^{his Forest} 15:18, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Kuban Kazak-Hillock arbcom case

Hi, you recently signalled your intent to accept a case on Kuban kazak. It is not my position to direct you to change your intent, however, I would like to ensure that you have read all the statements which were submitted to the case in question after you signalled your intent to take this case on board. In the event that you haven't kept up with developments on the case, could you please review the case again, and consider if it does in fact require arbcom intervention. Thanks. --Russavia ^{Dialogue Stalk me} 03:02, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I kept abreast of the discussion but thanks for letting me know. FloNight♥♥♥ 20:10, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Email

Hi FloNight,

I sent you an email last night (: Please bear in mind I don't want Elonka to be damaged. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 19:55, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Kentucky River gorge

Has your hubby taken any pictures of the Kentucky River gorge by Camp Nelson? I was too much in a rush to take pictures of it yesterday, and it would help my new Camp Nelson Civil War Heritage Park article.--Gen. Bedford ^{his Forest} 20:36, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Reply on Bedford's talk page. FloNight♥♥♥ 14:38, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

The only other thing I can really think of is an old train station at 701 S. Broadway in Lexington. I like doing articles on old stations; I'm fixing on improving the Stanford one soon.--Gen. Bedford ^{his Forest} 22:09, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I like trains and train depots, as well. I originally come from Huntington WV, which was a planned town built by Collis P. Huntington.

Sadly, the Southern Depot on South Broadway in Lexington was demolished on July 11, 1992. We lived in Lexington back then, and I remember when it happened. It was in terrible shape by the time we move to Lexington in the mid-1980's.

The Stanford article re-write is fantastic. :-) I showed my husband last night and he was thrilled as well. We have a few more pics of the depot and the park around it, iirc. I'll look to see if we have anything that would help on the article. FloNight♥♥♥ 17:53, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I guess no one bothered to get the Lexington station delisted. I'll need to go out eventually and take pictures of the few remaining monuments on List of Civil War Monuments of Kentucky.--Gen. Bedford ^{his Forest} 18:09, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

RFC discussion of User:Privatemusings

A request for comments has been filed concerning the conduct of Privatemusings (talk · contribs). You are invited to comment on the discussion at [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/PrivatemusingsTemplate:Highrfc-loop]]. -- MBisanz ^talk 01:36, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

I'll look. Interested to see the comments. Sorry for the slow reply, for the past week I've been traveling with limited internet access. FloNight♥♥♥ 14:38, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : Issue XXXII (October 2008)

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This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 23:54, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

ArbCom_Bharatveer

This is in response to your comment in Arbcom_case.Regarding this,(Bharatveer), you have mentioned that "Last year's editing restrictions did not stop the disruptive editing so this year a different approach is needed." As you know , User:Toddst initiated this case after my edits at Binayak Sen, an AFD proposed by me (Hindu Taliban) & Chandrayaan. Please see my contributions([1]). All of my edits in this particular article were about cleaning up the article and adding more references. Please see the talk page , where I had tried to initiate discussions on this. Please note that it was me who had asked for admin intervention in this article. Please note that other editors (SPAs) were in no way adhering to WP policies. Even in this situation, I had reverted as per WP:3RR. I hope you will notice that I have not "disrupted" this article in any manner. Regarding my other 2 edits, it should be noted that those edits are in no way "disruptive to WP" in any manner. With due respect, I request you to reconsider your earlier decision.-Bharatveer (talk) 08:51, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Proposed decision - Piotrus 2

I think you wanted to support the Fof on Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Piotrus_2/Proposed_decision#Halibutt because of line 383 here, but forgot to sign? Wanted to clarify. :) Ncmvocalist (talk) 04:20, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Checkusers

Who are the several other checkuser who have invaded my privacy? WHO? Giano (talk) 23:44, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

• "confirmed and reviewed by multiple checkusers" I want the name of every single one of these people. Giano (talk) 00:11, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Bad faith

You wrote: "[Piotrus] does make assumptions of bad faith about other editors". Could you point out where I have done so, so I can reflect on the specific examples and use them to improve my conduct? Thank you, PS. On the subject of good faith, you may be interested in this thread on talk:proposed, this thread on workshop, and this mini-essay of mine (it's not very long, and it may give you further insight into my actions and thoughts). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 01:59, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Piotrus, I will give a longer answer to your question in the next several days. I need to finish reviewing all of the ruling as proposed. I was planning to contact you and Irpen about taking another try at a voluntary agreement. Do you think that is doable or is it dead in the water? FloNight♥♥♥ 20:34, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

The 1000 banrstar question is: a voluntary agreement to what? Current proposed decision, which puts an end to him going around various foras in this project and slandering me, is what I've been asking for all this time. To the best of my recollection, I have never commented on Irpen's behavior outside a dispute resolution procedure that we were both a party of, and I don't follow him around, criticizing his (nonexistent in any case) content creation (thus I have no problem with the current restriction preventing us from discussing one another, although I do think it is a bit unfair in its current wording which may imply to an uninformed observer that we are both guilty of discussing one another, even through I don't discuss Irpen). If you think I should promise or declare something, please let me know; I have already in the scope of this arbcom recognized that there are certain issues I should address - thus I promised to pay more attention to BLP, avoid edit warring even more than I already do and to avoid the word neo-Nazi, and I am open to working with a mentor(s). Unfortunately, there are things Irpen has been asking for that I cannot agree to - like admitting I am the head of the revert-warring GG-coordinated Polish cabal :) If you think there is some agreement that would help us, please don't hesitate to suggest it; as far as I am concerned, I want simply to see an end to his years-long tactic of going around and portraying me as the "evil incarnate" on this project.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 05:32, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

The DG/Giano situation

Can we at least have a motion or even just a member of ArbCom tell DG directly that the way that this whole situation was handled was so far below optimal, that he created the very situation that he was trying to alleviate? Not to mention that if ANYONE was going to block Giano, it shouldn't have been him! SirFozzie (talk) 02:24, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Seeing as the arbcom are clearly afraid to fire him, I think we need a full and very frank and very public exchange of views and reasons on this. My patience is running out. I hate secrecy and I won't be party to it for very long.Giano (talk) 19:22, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Giano, patience has never been your long suit, but I think it is your friend in this situation. These checks and your block highlighted some of the weakness with the way that ip checks are managed. People that are interested in fixing the problem have the opportunity to vote for ArbCom candidates that want to fix the problems that have been exposed. The issue involves policy and practices about doing checks as well as personnel issues (who has access). In January, I anticipate a robust discussion about how to address the way that checks are managed. There is still an open request at RFArb, if you think that action is needed could you spell out more clearly which policy was violated by whom. Newyorkbrad has made a suggestion to David and is considering making a motion. Let's see how the situation plays it's self out over the next day. FloNight♥♥♥ 20:18, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Pray tell, "weaknesses"? While I have seen a small number of checks in the log that I objected to, I am naturally curious as to why you think this particular check exposes a "weakness" in the management of the checkuser function. Thatcher 14:43, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

For a start, inadequate methods for recording, discussing, and consulting about checks and the actions needed. You and the other checkusers had no way of knowing that this account had been discussed internally with the Committee years ago and was a known account of Giano's. If you had then the discussion between the involved people would have been very different, I think. Based on this situation and other recent cases, we need to find better ways to communicate with each other. More later. FloNight♥♥♥ 15:08, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

It will be interesting to see where that discussion leads. Unless we are talking about special rules for Giano again, wouldn't this mean that all identified socks would have to be run past arbcom and checkuer-L to see if it is an approved sock? One time Alison told checkuser-L that Kittybrewster was taking on a new account name for privacy reasons. Within a few days, the new account had racked up multiple complaints for his editing and suspicions of sockpuppetry. What to do then? Or consider the time I was checking a proxy range and found two notable and controversial admins sharing several IPs. I discussed that quietly for a long time with a small group of checkusers and arbitrators before taking actions. Small groups inherently have less information than a large group. If there is a requirement to discuss findings with larger groups (to make sure that any prior approvals are uncovered) won't this result in telling a much larger number of people about scandalous-sounding situations and doing more harm than good when it turns out there is a reasonable explanation? Thatcher 16:46, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

• It exposes a weakness because you behaved like three naughty schoolboys on a fishing trip to try and find out information you had no right to. Except you are not schoolboys you are three grown men, wrongly given huge responsibility. God knows what you were planning to do with it/are planning to do with the information you hoped to get. On the last occasion Gerard discussed it on IRC - been there lately have you Thatcher? You checkusered what you knew to be a harmless spoof - that was not even a secret. I had even discussed running Lady C for Arbcom on my Wikipedia talk page! Then you dare to insult our intelligence by saying you thought it was Greg Kohs - FGS! Is that really the best lie you can come up with? No one believes that, not even you. Your great mate Gerard already knew who I was, can you not get that into your head! You all deserve firing, and that is what is going to happen. The longer this is dragging on the angrier I am becoming, if Jimbo or the Arbcom had a single care for the privacy of those that write this encyclopedia you and your cohorts would have been fired 36 hours ago. Giano (talk) 15:18, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Show me where it says on Lady C's talk page that she is an acknowledged open secret account. Show me where, when I asked Lady C to contact me, that you replied with a diff to your talk page discussion that would have made the situation clear. Assume, for a moment, that I had no prior idea who Lady C was, that in fact I had never encountered her, read a post by her, or even knew of her existence before Avi asked me about her candidacy. (I know such an assumption will be difficult for you to make but in fact, my Wikipedia experience does not revolve around you or your circle of friends.) From that assumption, tell me what clues I missed that would have told me that the account was (1) your sock, (2) an open secret, and (3) a joke that was ending soon. You could at some point take some responsibility for your own failure to communicate. For the record, my only off-wiki communications on this matter have been emails to Avi, Jimbo, Newyorkbrad, Kirill, and Lar. I have not been on IRC in months. Ironically, if I had gone on to IRC to ask whether I should check the account, someone there probably would have been able to tell me what was going on without the need for a check. Certainly communicating with 50 admins instead of 3 would have increased the odds of finding someone who both knew the score and was on line at the time. But of course, IRC has no value. Thatcher 15:52, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

No, it has no purpose what-so-ever, you have yet to find a lie to explain why you emailed Gerard - Oh yes, it was because you knew he has already checkusered. Thatcher you can squirm and lie all you like, you are in this up to your filthy little neck, and you are caught. Greg Kohs!! I suppose Alice Reighly payed Kohs to write her bio? Yeah, well, right Thatcher, really plausible that one, your smart obviously going places! - pull the other one Thatcher, it has bells on. FGS just resign and take your cohorts in crime with you. Giano (talk) 16:03, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

• I never checkusered you until after the results were clear. I checkusered an account with a few warnings on its talk page and a suspicious arbcom candidacy. You could have derailed this whole thing with a straightforward two sentence answer to my question. And you keep avoiding my questions. How, exactly, based on Catherine's talk page, was I supposed to know in advance that it was you? I already answered, oublicly and privately, why I included Gerard in my email. Would it have been better to ask my second opinion of the entire Arbcom-L list, or the checkuser-L list, or #admins? I was attempting to be discreet and careful. I may retire (this is only one of the stupid dramas and downright unpleasantness I have been involved with as a checkuser) but I will never resign. Another irony, which I'm sure you will not believe; if you wanted an insider to advocate for higher standards for checkusers, I would have been your best choice among the current batch, at least until now. Thatcher 16:24, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Giano, the longer this drags on, the more ridiculous your position seems to become. Seriously, why would Thatcher lie about what he did? Logically, what could he possibly gain by lying as you say he did? I don't know about David Gerard, but your anger at Thatcher is totally unfounded. He saw what was obviously a sock of someone else, and since the user in question was running for ArbCom, he did what anyone would have done in that position. He asked the account to identify its parent account, and when it refused, he ran a check. I fail to see how this is an issue. How was he supposed to know who it was if they refused to tell him? What followed after the check was unquestionably wrong, but it was not Thatcher's fault either. Thus, I cannot understand your anger at him. Essentially, from what I can see, you are mad at Thatcher because he did not already know that Catherine was your sock. So you expect him to resign or be fired simply because he is not capable of reading people's minds? Or because he did not act based on knowledge that he did not have? J.delanoy^gabs_adds 16:14, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

In Giano's world I breathe, therefore I lie. After Poetgate, I offered to tell anyone who was interested whether they were discussed on the checkuser mailing list during the time period when PoetGuy had access. Giano asked, and I told him "no" (which was the honest answer), and replied that he thought I was lying. So why bother asking? Who knows. Anyway, I think I'm going offline for a while. Thatcher 16:25, 20 November 2008 (UTC) That's a little heavy. Thatcher 01:02, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Please don't. I went offline for awhile, and look what happened.... Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:26, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Here is my emailed reply to Thatcher, when he said I had not been checkusered:

I was not being rude. I was asking a factual question - can you prove it? the answer is (it seems) - no. Not really good enough is it? Thanks for the information you did provide. Wikipedia and its management are long overdue a large kick up the ass. This is a world renown major site (one thing we can probably agree on) yet it is run with less efficiency, reliability and professionalism than a children's creche in the backstreets of Palermo.

I think I stand by every word of that. I don't believe I accused him of lying - I asked him for proof - I deal in proof and fact, it's how I know instictively when others are economical with the truth. Giano (talk) 16:35, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

But how could Thatcher or anyone prove to you that you had never been checkusered in 2008? Seriously, how could that possibly be proved? (Except perhaps by sending you a printout of the list of all checks that were ever run during the time period so you could check that your name was not on the list—which would of course have been a violation of the privacy of everyone who was on the list.) Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:44, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

So Brad, what has the Arbcom done about this situation so far? In emails yesterday to you and others I said I was prepared to ignore Thatcher and the other one, if gerard was dealt with. So far I see nothing has been done. It is left to me to sort it out, and prevent similar abuse. According to you, I should not be cross with Thatcher, I should not be cross with the other one - presumably I should not be cross with Gerard because he is the pet of Jimbo and the Arbcom, and let's face it no-one is allowed to tell Jimbo that his tame checkuser is a lying cheat. Who invades and violates privacy at a whim. Why is this? What services does he perform for you all, that give him such protection? Giano (talk) 17:00, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I have no connection or association with David Gerard whatsoever and he has performed no services for me of any nature (I don't even know what that means). I have evaluated his actions and those of everyone else on their merits and have a question currently outstanding to him on the RfAr page. In the meantime, you have not answered the question I asked you above, perhaps because it is unanswerable. Newyorkbrad (talk) 17:09, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

• So long as Jimbo and the Arbcom allow the likes of Gerard to have checkuser rights, you have no right to ask any questions of any of us. The less information any of you are trusted with the safer the rest of us are. Giano (talk) 17:15, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Giano, the block was unambiguously misplaced - very few people appear to be disagreeing with you on that point. The rest of your objections, however, are being met mostly with universal disagreement. Before your responses become so heated that another hugely dramatic event occurs, you should take some time away from Wikipedia to calm down and think cooly about what happened and what should happen next. Avruch ^T 17:54, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

This problem with Gerard should have been handled long ago. In fact, I was going to use him as an example in a question to all candidates (but that page seems to be protected now). So, in the light of the current arbcom elections, let me ask it here;

Imagine a powerful administrator who wants to silence some political opposition. He enters into an edit war on a Wikipedia project page and censors all criticism of his pet cause. He then protects the page on his version and even threatens to move it to Meta where he can more effectively control the content. The criticism he removed was civil and came from administrators and long time contributors.

It goes to the arbcom and parties present their cases in the usual way, except for this admin who presents his case behind closed doors, in complete secrecy. None of the other parties can see or respond to what he says. Furthermore, he's on the arbcom mailing list by virtue of his previous arbitratorship, and is therefore 'in the room' as the arbitrators discuss and decide the case.

He walks away with no consequences for his behavior.

What do you all think about this? Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/IRC --Duk 18:01, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Hi

Since you've got experience, the job of a member of ArbCom is equivalent to what kind of job in real life do you think? I don't expect it to be pretty :) 211.30.109.24 (talk) 12:51, 21 November 2008 (UTC)