Talk:Scientology

South park episode?

There was a South park made about this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Park_Scientology_episode (sry i dont how to link) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.1.73.86 (talk) 02:47, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Lots of viewers (including this editor) found the episode to be hilarious, but think about it: South Park has lampooned so many subjects--ranging from venture capitalist gnomes to Mormonism--practically every article in Wikipedia could be required to feature a South Park references section. And that would be kind of specious, considering that other fine TV series have also covered a similar amount of ground. Still, the episode evidently merits its own page, so maybe the article could include a "Pop-culture references" section linking to various other resources, if only for cross-reference purposes. However, I worry that such a section would devolve into a ridiculously consensual statement like "Many Scientologists did not enjoy the episode; however, many non-Scientologists did," etc. Rangergordon (talk) 10:40, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

There's a South Park Controversies article. The episode is noted extensively in there. See that article. Or see the article specifically for that episode.KriticKill (talk) 21:47, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I decided to check up the Scientology page after watching some episodes of South Park again. From memory, there are three episodes completely dedicated to poking fun at Scientology. One is explicitly about Scientology while the other two heavily imply a connection. Season 5 episode 3: Super Best Friends, season 9 episode 12: Trapped in the Closet, and season 10 episode 1: The Return of Chef. Due to the fact that there have been 3 episodes dedicated to how absurd the makers of South Park feel Scientology is, it should be noted on the Scientology page. For Clarification, the first episode mentioned is about "The Church of Blainology". The second episode explicitly discusses Scientology. The third episode parodies the second episode's format but makes the topic about pedophilia. For review, each of the episodes can be viewed at http://www.southparkstudios.com/episodes/ (Edit: Ack, forgot the sign again) Zencyde (talk) 12:12, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

There's a long history of popular entertainment shows having episodes that poke fun at Scientology, either mentioning it directly or with thinly veiled references that are obviously intended to be Scientology: Millennium (TV series) (Jose Chung's Domesday Defence), Absolutely Fabulous, Peep Show (TV series), the film Bowfinger and so on. We're not obliged to put these in an encyclopedia entry on Scientology, but if you want to compile them into a separate article, go ahead.MartinPoulter (talk) 12:36, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Scientology is not a 'destructive cult'

I think that is a one-sided opinion, I do NOT want 'destructive cult' under see also, anyone agree? I am a scientologist and I think that is quite offensive.

Well, as a member of the sect you're not objective. Those not involved are mch more objective in this matter.

Yes but if we write this article with the intetion of not offending scietologist then how can it be netural

It is a destructive cult, there is extensive documentation for this. Just as was the case with nazizm or communism - those were oppresive, destructive systems. And we write about it, about facts, not worrying about offending some communists or members of a nazi regime.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Heartislove (talk • contribs) 14:18, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Highly POV, considering the linked article does not mention Scientology at all, and removed. --Rodhullandemu 14:23, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

It is a destructive cult, have you ever seen the inside of an RPF camp? It looks like a concentration camp and is full of people that are physically harmed because the "church" finds them undesirable.

I think that you should relink it as scientology has been proven to be harmfull not only through legal action but the actual scientology documents themselvs talk of fair game and rehabilitation project force. Yet ask yourself why then does scientology do everything in its power to supress ANYTHING critical of them from the public eye? what has it to hide if not the fields of dead bodies. bodies not even born here. bodies stolen from other countrys so that they may work hard labour to build new church facilitys. I have seen the camps with my own eyes and have been in gold base. Its nowhere near as bad as it used to be but that does not change the cold fact of the matter. Slavery is wrong, scientology is wrong and no matter how much they try to surpress information and assault protesters they will fall.

They still deny the xenu story and I have no doubt you will as well. But the fact remains it is real and it is in l rons own handwritting. The same is said about all the curel and inhumans policys that exist in corporate scientology.130.156.142.10 (talk) 17:05, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, entertaining and lurid as your comments are, they constitute original research and the issue of whether Scientology is a destructive cult is not addressed by either article. That's why the link has been removed. It is paramount that we maintain a neutral point of view. If you have reliable sources to state that Scientology IS a destructive cult, please feel free to cite them. --Rodhullandemu 17:13, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, read about the cult a bit, then try to resolve the big dilemma of yours if it is a destructive, money grabbing cult or not. Educate yourself, then post here, not the other way around. Unless you have an agenda and try to make a dangerous sect look quite alright. What's next - gonna try to make Hitler be a nice fella? What you do is not entertaining, it is either ignorant or purposeful, thus wrongful. --Pitdog (talk) 23:36, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, but it doesn't quite work like that here. My only agenda here is to ensure that verifiability policy is adhered to. It isn't my job to do my own original research to make up my own mind as to whether Scientology is a "dangerous cult". That would be invalid, in spades. I reiterate: provide some reliable sources to state that Scientology IS a destructive cult, or not. No dilemma; your proposition, and therefore, by OUR rules, your proof. If you're not happy with that, please feel free to pursue your agenda elsewhere. --Rodhullandemu 00:07, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

What about the images of children working in the fields at gold base? What about the numerous lawsuites against the church for human rights violations. what about the actual leaked policy letter pened to paper by L ron hubbar himself? Is that not enough? It took us forever to get the xenu story to stay up without it getting removed. Even though that had plenty of evidence. Now look I see what your saying, while there are plenty of sources that when viewed togethure make one classify the church as a deystructive cult there is no actual research with the singular purpose of proving that. if there was it would use the resources already cited in this article as well as others. I will get some stuff togethure for you to read. I do recomend you go to whyweprotest They have all the leaked dox and durty secrets posted thier for all to see.130.156.142.240 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 18:02, 13 November 2008 (UTC).

Reliable sources? --Rodhullandemu 00:07, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

While I agree that Scientology is a destructive and criminal cult preying on gullible people with sly tactics and manipulation, this really isn't the place for that discussion. Head over to alt.scientology if you want to cult bash them (and for the guy there who said he's a scientologist, you belong to a scam, not an actual religion. Anywhere else I would not give a wit about offending your 'religion') KriticKill (talk) 19:13, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

He is right you know, deystructive cult is deystructive. It kills people, forces them not to seek medical attention when they need it. You got your slave camps your ilegal activity, your physical and emotional abuse. The jenifer ghorman rape is a perfect example. She was told by her surperviser to move in with him. She had no choice and then she was repeatedly raped by him and the church did nothing. WHY? because he was a cacon. somebody who acording to the church can be "Forgiven the death penalty 10 times over"... That seems pretty deystructive to me. You look at all the people who blew the org they all have horrifying storys to tell about thier experieneces inside. they can't every last one of them be lieing. Mark my words after I am done citeing my sources this article will be forever linked with deystructive cults. Aaron Bongart (talk) 16:42, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

In the Latey Judgement (a High Court judgement in the UK), Scientology was described as "corrupt, sinister and dangerous" and referred to as a cult. Justice Latey described at length why he used those terms, and the judgement was upheld by the Law lords on appeal. Judgement of Mr Justice Latey, Re: B & G (Minors) (Custody) Delivered in the High Court (Family Division), London, 23 July 1984. I don't think this in itself justifies putting it in a list of dangerous cults on WP, but it legitimises a weaker, more careful statement.MartinPoulter (talk) 17:24, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Over referencing

This articles reference list is massive, and it doesn't need to be so. There is no reason to have multiple references for a single point. For example, the article currently has 3 references for the fact that Scientology was created by L. Ron Hubbard. One would suffice. I will remove some of the extra references. DigitalC (talk) 21:59, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree. And I see these are being used to push an agenda. Case in point is the 3rd paragraph which includes 6 citations to "prove" that Scientology is uniformly considered to be harmful etc. whereas all the references show is that 6 sources held negative opinions. This has been used to justify making an overly strong statement "Former members, journalists, courts and authorities in multiple countries have described the Church of Scientology as..." which requires a modification such as "some former members", etc. I personally know many former members and journalists who don't hold these views, and there have been many court decisions that have been favorable to the church. There are authorities who endorse church programs. For example, the Church was awarded American Flags and commendations by several US Reps. So citations are being used to "prove" premises which they do not prove at all IMO.Su-Jada (talk) 03:11, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

This is a controversial topic where just about every point or reference is fought over. Over-referencing can get ridiculous, but it's better to have over- than under-referencing. Having a maximum of one ref per factual statement is going too far IMHO. Su-Jada says "I agree" about the over-referencing point but goes on to complain about under-referencing. With "Former members, journalists etc." the implied quantification is "some"- it would be odd in English to read it as "all journalists, all courts" around the world. I agree that there could be a lot more references to back up the negative statement, but then this clashes with DigitalC's point that there should be no more than one.MartinPoulter (talk) 17:30, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

This sentence makes no sense in ordinary English

As I see it, one of the purposes of this page is to provide a succinct understanding of Scientology beliefs and practices to outsiders in plain English. As one myself, I can not decipher this sequence of words. It depends on too many definitions which may be considered by some to be jargon. If anyone can explain it to me, or phrase it in a better way, please do. Until then, I have removed it from the article. Spidern (talk) 05:18, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

An action must contain construction which outweighs the destruction it contains in order to be considered good. "Good is any action which brings the greatest construction to the greatest number of dynamics while bringing the least destruction. "An 'absolute wrongness' would be the extinction of the universe and all energy and the source of energy. . . . An 'absolute "rightness"' would be the immortality of the individual himself, his children, his group, mankind and the universe."

Thats Scientology for you. But hey, if you can't parse this, you must have a MU. I can paraphrase it, as "To be considered good, an action's benefits must outweigh its drawbacks". DigitalC (talk) 05:58, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

They've rephrased the philosophical argument about utility. For an action to be considered good, it needs to bring a higher ratio of good results to bad results than any other, and conversely for an action to be considered evil, it needs to bring a higher ration of bad results to good results than any other. It goes on to say that the best action would be one that brings immortality to people and / or mankind. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.137.201.28 (talk) 19:11, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Scientology Lead

The lead to this article needs work. First off, it violates the guidelines of what a lead section should contain -- "a concise overview of the article." IMHO it is not written in "a clear, accessible style." It differs greatly from lead sections of other religions, which describe the basic beliefs and hierarchy of the religion. For example, there is no mention of "The Aims of Scientology" and the Creed of the Church of Scientology, the eight dynamics , the ARC triangle and the fact that all the basic principles of the religion are contained in the basic Scientology and Dianetics books and lectures . Rather, and in contrast with the lead articles on other religions in Wikipedia, it gets into opinions about the church, controversy, criticism. This skews the articled from the start. I think we should include a paragraph that summarizes these key beliefs, since that is what defines the religion. Anyone disagree or object?Su-Jada (talk) 04:39, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you that a concise paragraph describing the beliefs of Scientology is well in order. I would welcome this addition as a second paragraph. That being said, bear in mind that there is a more extensive section on some of the topics you mentioned (ARC, eight dynamics, etc). I suppose a good way to approach the problem is to imagine yourself in the place of a reader who has no idea what Scientologists believe, and how you would inform this person in a few sentences. Keep it short and succinct, and if you wish to add more detail, do so later in the page (beliefs/practices sections). ←Spidern→ 05:31, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Regarding your footnotes, in case you wish to use them in the article, we require third-party sources. The Church of Scientology is not a reliable source on the topic of scientology. You have to mention the controversy in the lead, since there's a dispute as to what the most basic teachings of Scientology actually are. We can't just present the Church's claim of what it's teachings are, without mentioning the controversy over what they actually teach. One controversy we should remove from the lead is mention of Tom Cruise. This is a bad case of recentism. --Rob (talk) 06:44, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

The article is heavily overburdened with primary Church of Scientology sources as it is, some of which are used where they are not WP:RS. AndroidCat (talk) 08:31, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, let's focus on removing these inappropriate, non-WP:RS, non-secondary sources. Cirt (talk) 10:48, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't totally understand how Scientology published books are unreliable sources. Wouldn't saying the Vatican, or the Bible would be unreliable sources for the teachings of The Catholic Church? The Bible is what is taught at Sunday school and at Church so wouldn't those be the beliefs of that religion and what that religion is about whether there are atheistic views as well? I personally think there are too many references of articles written by a person quoting an interview written from another article, that references another newspaper, that references a book written by the person who actually interviewed the person they claim they're quoting yet I'm still not sure that person gave consent to quote them or that the actual source even said that. To me that's not very reliable. Anyone agree, or see what I'm talking about? Chesire1984 (talk) 08:13, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't think the Bible would be the best source for many teachings of the Catholic Church. Different churches use that text but interpret it differently and often have very different beliefs because of it. If there are secondary sources whose statements aren't reliable, then the information should be referenced with something else or removed, but it seems like that's a much less common problem. Wutudidthere...isawit (talk) 09:18, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Chesire1984, I think the succinct difference is that Scientology is promoted by one network of organizations which has monetized the scriptures. Knowing that they have sued in the past for copyright infringement and sharing of "trade secrets", it is apparent that there is a vested business interest in the scriptures. Thus, they cannot be considered an RS. It would be similar to citing advertisements for windows on the Microsoft page. Furthermore, the materials make many pseudoscientific claims which are not peer-reviewed or academically accepted, generally speaking. ←Spidern→ 13:37, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Length of controversies section

I'm beginning to think that the controversies section is becoming much too large and overwhelmingly detailed for this page. I think the best way to deal with the situation is to migrate a great deal of that information over to the controversies page, and provide more of a broad outline here instead of going into as much detail. What are other peoples' thoughts on this? ←Spidern→ 13:37, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

That's been tried before. No. In fact, since a majority of references to Scientology are that it is controversial, why are so many topics confined to the ghetto of the Controversy section, while a number of fluffy topics backed with nothing but POV non-RS sources are allowed to freely roam the article space? AndroidCat (talk) 08:40, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Agree with this comment by [[::User:AndroidCat|AndroidCat]] ([[::User talk:AndroidCat|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/AndroidCat|contribs]]). Cirt (talk) 10:49, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

In that case, perhaps it would be prudent to integrate some of the material from the controversies section into the bulk of the article where applicable. ←Spidern→ 12:27, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

I'll second that notion. There are alot of places where implimenting the various dirty secrets and leaks into the main article would be prudent. Especially when you talk about belief systems. They belives that children are the same as adults and thats why they force the kids to audit people and ask questions about things like sex and masturbation. To them the child normally 10 - 13 is mature as an adult and can handle this.130.156.142.240 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 17:57, 13 November 2008 (UTC).

Removed KRC and ARC section

ARC and KRC triangles

The Scientology symbol contains two triangles which Hubbard called the "ARC triangle" and the "KRC triangle", respectively. The points of the lower triangle are said to represent Affinity (emotional responses), Reality (an agreement on what is real) and Communication. Scientologists believe that improving one aspect of the triangle "increases the level" of the other two.

The points of the upper triangle represent Knowledge, Responsibility and Control. Many auditing processes and training routines aim at increasing an individual's ability to gain knowledge of, take responsibility for and exert control over external and internal elements.

I have removed this section from the article because it fails to establish notability, and only uses a primary source. Seems like undue weight is also given to this section. ←Spidern→ 00:37, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

There are scholarly works that detail these Scientology beliefs from an independent perspective. They should be briefly mentioned, but absolutely not sourced to Scientology books themselves. I'll see what I can dig up. --GoodDamon 00:49, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Any scholarly works that you can find would be very much appreciated. This page is in dire need of some solid academic information. ←Spidern→ 01:10, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Agree with the removal of this material by [[::User:Spidern|Spidern]] ([[::User talk:Spidern|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Spidern|contribs]]), the material was all sourced to dubious primary sources, as opposed to the more preferable WP:RS/WP:V secondary sources. Cirt (talk) 04:52, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Here is another removal of content from the article for similar reasons. Posted here for discussion and archival, in the case that someone is able to find good outside sources. As of now, all of the other subsections of "beliefs" at least use some secondary sources in one way or another.(see below comment) ←Spidern→ 05:37, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Tone scale

Main article: Tone scale

The tone scale characterizes human mood and behavior by rating it on a scale from −40 ("Total Failure") to +40 ("Serenity of Being"). Positions on the tone scale are usually designated by an emotion, but Hubbard said the tone scale could also indicate health, mating behavior, survival potential or ability to deal with truth. According to Scientology, lower positions on the tone scale indicate more intricate problems and greater difficulties in solving them for lack of communication. It is believed that the higher the person’s tone is, the better the person’s ability to communicate; and conversely for lower tones.

I recant what I said above about the beliefs section, Dianetics subsection is still entirely primary-sourced. ←Spidern→ 05:44, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Better sources

I've found some good sources for overview information about the above topics, which is all we should go into. Too much detail would be undue weight for a summary style article. More detailed information should go in the Scientology beliefs and practices article, which also needs a primary sources cleanup.

So, on to the better sources:

• Neusner, Jacob (2003). World Religions In America. Westminster John Knox Press. ISBN 9780664224752. - Good for basic info on ARC and KRC triangles.
• Corrigan, John (2008). The Oxford Handbook of Religion and Emotion. Oxford University Press US. ISBN 9780195170214. - A brief overview of Hubbard's tone scale.

I don't see a need for much more than what either of these very reliable academic books provide. --GoodDamon 19:32, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

These are excellent choices.

I have also found a few more I recommend:

• Lewis, James R. (1997). "Clearing the Planet: Utopian Idealism and the Church of Scientology". SYZYGY Journal of Alternative Religion and Culture Volume : numbers 1-2 Winter-Fall 1997. Mandeville Press. ISBN 0-914829-42-4. - a brief description of the history of Scientology and Dianetics and some of its core beliefs, and biographical data on L. Ron Hubbard.
• Introvigne, Massimo (2002). "Religious Minorities and Anti-Cult Activity in Italy in Comparative Perspective". International Perspectives on Freedom and Equality of Religious Belief. J. M. Dawson Institute of Church-State Studies, Baylor University. ISBN 929182-66-9. {{cite book}}: Check |isbn= value: length (help) - a good reference for the religious nature of Scientology and why it was given religious recognition in Italy.
• Jennifer, Robinson (2002). "Scientology (Church of Scientology)". The Encyclopedia of Cults, Sects, and New Religions. Prometheus Books. ISBN 1-57392-888-7. - Description of Dianetics, Scientology training as a religious practice, as well as some historical information.Su-Jada (talk) 07:02, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Legal status

Is it appropriate to designate a legal status in this article? It seems to me that the Scientology article should be dealing with the beliefs and practices as they pertain to followers worldwide, not just a single organization (such as the CoS or CSI which may be based in a single country). Since different countries have often classified Scientology in very different ways, it seems like designating Scientology itself as non-profit would be incorrect. Wutudidthere...isawit (talk) 09:45, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

This is a good point. Cirt (talk) 10:33, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

well your correct, there is few things non-profit about scientology. For the most part it is a business. The gratuitous ammounts of money they save by useing slave labour to refurnish and build new facilitys is astronomical. Forgive me for sounding evil but you really got to hand it to them. I think hubbard said something about the best slave or prisioner being the one that thinks he is free. Something like that and he is right. If you look at how much the sea org people get paid to work from 7am to 11pm you would see its only 15euros a week. It is even worse in the US.130.156.142.240 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 17:55, 13 November 2008 (UTC).

Agreed. The article needs a serious revamp of less Scientology doctrine, and more actual info. I would say sum most of the article down to a single section summarizing their beliefs. I can't believe that the church itself isn't actually writing this article. I've got a feeling we're going to need semi-pro status on it to make a real article out of it (I'd really love to see a section detailing their criminal exploits, like Operation Snow White, for example). KriticKill (talk) 15:29, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

There's a whole article on Operation Snow White. AndroidCat (talk) 01:30, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Neutrality and inclusiveness

The unfortunate aspect about the Scientology Corporation's foundings and history is that it literally takes several books to cover all of it, all the crimes, human rights abuses, civil rights abuses, motivations, behavior, once-secret bait-and-switch bunko scams and everything else.

Wikipedia articles can't be nearly as inclusive as everyone (other than Scientology crime bosses and ringleaders) would like them to be because then the Wiki entry would literally be a thousand pages long.

I mention this because someone claiming to be a Scientology customer complained about Scientology being a "danger cult" -- which it is and which everyone recognizes as being factual and which belongs in any article about Scientology.

A reasonable solution would be to enumerate all of the massive exposures of Scientology's racketeering crimes, human rights abuses, and what not as covered in the numerous books, magazines, and newspaper articles which have been published since the 1960's. Neutrality means that one covers the truth and does not pander to the wishes of criminals, after all, but enumerating all the mountain of court documentation and the pile of books written by law enforcement, health officials, one-time ringleaders, and previous customers of the crime syndicate would help. Fredric Rice (talk) 23:53, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a forum. Do you have a suggestion for improving the article? --GoodDamon 23:55, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I think he is makeing a suggestion. He is basically asking people to do what I am doing. Summerising some of the more major crimes of scientology, source and cite them and then put them into the main article. This is what I am doing. The best part is NOBODY can dispute something about scientology if it is in L ron's own hand writting as for example his journal entries are. The ones showing him as a flamming racist. Nutrality actually means no shifting to biases of one side or the other, listing the good and the bad. So far the article has alot of nutrality but lacks insight on the darker more dangurous sides of the "church". Aaron Bongart (talk) 17:18, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

There is very little good side to Scientology. In the interest of neutrality, however, someone might want to note the considerable anti-drug work and funding that they do.KriticKill (talk) 17:12, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

You are aware that much of that work is against psychiatric drugs? I'm no fan of Ritalin or our society's drug-first mentality, but Scientologists literally don't believe a paranoid schizophrenic should be treated with anti-psychotic drugs. That's not exactly a point in Scientology's favor. --GoodDamon 17:56, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

There are separate articles about Narconon and CCHR, which are already linked from the Scientology article. I agree that their efforts should be described as "anti drug" rather than "anti drug abuse". Don't agree that depriving people of medication for reasons of pseudoscience counts as a good point.MartinPoulter (talk) 18:22, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

This thing needs some work.

Since I am currently unable to edit the article directly I will post any changes here. I will not cite any of the sources of this information untill I am done skimming through the entirity of the article and posting edits here. After which I have posted all my sources most of which will be leaked scientology documents I will request the changes be made.

"It is believed that thetans were brainwashed by these extraterrestrial cultures as a means of population control. The belief of extraterrestrial origins are not taught to new members, but are only presented after members have advanced through the ranks of Scientology"

-The rank at which the xenu creation story is taught is "OT3". Sources:http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Scientology_cult_Hubbard_Class_VIII_Assists_Xenu_lecture_recording_1968

---

"Scientology asserts that people have hidden abilities which have not yet been fully realized.[48] The Church of Scientology claims its tenets are not a matter of faith but of testable practice.[49] It is believed that further spiritual awareness and physical benefits are accomplished through counseling sessions referred to as "auditing".[50] Through auditing, it is said that people can solve their problems and free themselves of ethical transgressions and bad decisions.[51] Those who study Scientology materials and receive auditing sessions advance from a status of "preclear" to "Operating Thetan".

-I think somebody should point out that some of the things listed in scientology doctrine as abilitys of I think OT8 and above is the ability to "exteriorise" or walk through solid objects. Also move things with thier mind. Sources:

---

"Conflicting statements about L. Ron Hubbard's life, in particular accounts of Hubbard discussing his intent to start a religion for profit, and of his service in the military.[14]"

- somewhere is shoudl mention that hubbard was a racist, and send letters to his first wife useing the N word. There are excerpts of different lectures he did were he said equally negative things about blacks. Its not extreamly important and would most lilly bias the article to much but it none the less should be mention that hubbards moderate dislike for minoritys was an inflence in the joining of the nazi party by scientology. I have a few old newspaper image of scientologist dressed up with swasticas I will post after I am done going through the article. Aaron Bongart (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 12:39, 14 November 2008 (UTC). Sources:

The South African native is probably the one impossible person to train in the entire world — he is probably impossible by any human standard.

–L. Ron Hubbard, PAB No. 119, 1 September 1957, as published in Level 0 PABS (c.1968, The American St. Hill Organization).

As long as a white foreman is there, they will prevent soil erosion; but the moment that a white foreman turns his back — boo! There goes the whole program. And you finally get up to the point of where he's [native] supposed to take care of something, a lesson which has never been taught to the native of South Africa.

–L. Ron Hubbard, 15th ACC (Power of Simplicity) lecture "Education: Point of Agreement", 30 Oct 1956.

…the African tribesman, with his complete contempt for truth and his emphasis on brutality and savagery for others but not for himself, is a no-civilization.

–L. Ron Hubbard, Scientology: The Fundamentals of Thought, Bridge Publications: Los Angeles, 1997.

[Y]ou'll find in Africans a fantastic amount of heavy space opera and so on, going on … which makes the colored African very, very interesting to process because he doesn't know why he goes through all these dances … and why he feels so barbarous ….

–L. Ron Hubbard, 1st Melbourne ACC, lecture "Principal Incidents on the Track", 27 November 1959.

They took people who were totally dedicated to certain tribal procedures … and said, "You're free." And they said, "Free. Free? Free. Ah! You mean there's no police anymore." Boom! Boom!

–L. Ron Hubbard, State of Man Congress, Opening lecture, 1 January 1960.

You shouldn't be scrubbing the floor on your hands and knees. Get yourself a nigger; that's what they're born for.

–L. Ron Hubbard, in a letter to first wife, Polly Grubb

Unlike yellow and brown people, the white does not usually believe he can get attention from matter or objects. … The white goes further. He often believes he can get attention only from whites and that yellow and brown people's attention is worthless. Thus the yellow and brown races are not very progressive, but, by and large, saner.

–L. Ron Hubbard, Scientology: The Fundamentals of Thought, Bridge Publications: Los Angeles, 1997.

Now it's of peculiar interest to an Arab country that there is a company and a certain set of bankers who also finance the World Federation of Mental Health. …and we see that although the KGB and so forth seems to be associated with the World Federation of Mental Health, their other organization in action seems to go back to Jewish Bankers.

–L. Ron Hubbard, Aides Conference, "Covert Operations", 2 November 1969

… gooks … really more or less savage at heart.

–L. Ron Hubbard, personal diary, June-July 1927

get more here http://www.solitarytrees.net/racism/deny.htm

Need I say more? So will somebody please make the neccecary adjustments to the article?

---

Discussion of proposed content additions above

I see no mention of the RPF or FairGame. I will provide documentation, I have images of Big blue where they have 3 bunks high and abotu 100 bunks to a small room. one bathroom. Stuff like that. I had alot more before somebody vandalised my articel. Keep in mind whoever is doing this that all this stuff is protected under the fair use act.

This is taking longer then I thaught, there is just SO MUCH dox to prune through. I mean in the past 8 months more scientology dox have been leaked in that time then at any other time in history combined. So there is alot of content. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aaron Bongart (talk • contribs) 13:34, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

We can't over-utilize primary sources, and Hubbard's own writings -- as bizarre as they are -- are primary sources. Ideally, scholarly researchers and newspapers will publish reliable secondary sources of information providing detailed analysis of the leaked materials, but publishing that ourselves is not Wikipedia's job. Wikipedia is not news, and there's no deadline for getting material into it. It would be best if you tracked down reputable news and scholarly sources, and pointed us towards those instead. Those can be used. --GoodDamon 16:51, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually those can be used, there is no more realiable source then the handwirtten journals of the guy. You can't possibly say that "secondary" research is more solid and reliable then the original information. If that was the case we would define a word in the dictionary not by its definition but by somebody esles interpritation of the definition. I am sure you can see the clear lapse of logic in this. There is nothing that I am aware of that says secondary research is better then the ORIGINAL 2 + 2 = 4. Wiki is not about makeing peopls minds for them. If we are to substitue EVERY original source of information for one that is the result of an already made decision or interpritation we sevar the artery of nutrality and throw open the doors to bias and oppinion. These sources will be used because they are straight from church doctrine. It is impossible for there to be ANYTHING more "reputable" then the original. All fltrations and interpretations of the original open the door to leading opinions and biases against the church. I do not want that I was fairness. Aaron Bongart (talk) 17:22, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I understand where you're coming from, but what you're describing is actually a big no-no in Wikipedia, original research. Please read WP:OR, Wikipedia's policy outlining the kind of research to avoid. Far superior to original research is the use of reliable sources, sources like newspapers and academic journals with strong histories of fact-checking and verification. If I read one of Hubbard's books -- and frankly, I don't have any desire to do that -- then report here on its contents, you have to trust my research to be accurate. If instead I make citations to Time magazine and reputable scholars who have investigated Scientology, then it's their research you're trusting to be accurate, and frankly, they have reputations for fact-checking that I do not. Citing leaked material you've looked at yourself makes you the source for that information, and that's against Wikipedia policy. But if you find a newspaper that reaches the same conclusions you have? That can go in. --GoodDamon 19:24, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I see what you mean, but what is more reliable the the original physical journal? What fact checking would be required other than reading it and then makeing sure the copies of it are transcribed without error? If claim that Book A says "lolwut" and then I cite a source that has images and the original Book A am I not citing a source better then if Time goes to the same location I did and writes and article that cites the original Book A just as I did? Because that is the situation we are talking about.

For example if I say Unlike yellow and brown people, the white does not usually believe he can get attention from matter or objects. … The white goes further. He often believes he can get attention only from whites and that yellow and brown people's attention is worthless. Thus the yellow and brown races are not very progressive, but, by and large, saner.

–L. Ron Hubbard, Scientology: The Fundamentals of Thought, Bridge Publications: Los Angeles, 1997.

I am saying something about the source and the source is an original scilon doc. Called L. Ron Hubbard, Scientology: The Fundamentals of Thought, Bridge Publications: Los Angeles, 1997. So if I then provide a link to that actual document as a source is it THEN better then just refering to the site that mentions the reference?

So if I qoute one of his lecture and then for my source I provide a link to the actual audio lecture and transcript, as oppsed to just saying where it came from is it then acceptable being that nobody can fake the actual document with his voice/handwritting what have you? I mean if what you say is true then that woul explain why there isnt hundreds of images of the slave camps with 10 year olds toiling in bloody agony. Because the images are taken by somebody with a long zoom camera hiding on a hill somewhere. and not by time or some "reputable" source. So basically in Time goes and sits in the same spot and takes the same picture at the same time as a regular activist the image the activist takes is now allowed in wiki but the image taken by the time journalist is. While i am sure this rule has its practical uses I at the moment see it as a hinderence to anybody that has firsthand proof of something and just because of who they are it is inadmissible.. when in court that would not be the case. Aaron Bongart (talk) 19:41, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

The problem with that is that transcripts/recordings/etc. can be faked, and while I believe you -- heck, I've seen some of the same things myself -- there's no way for anyone reading the article to verify that what they are seeing or listening to in that link is legit, unless it's hosted on a website controlled by an organization or source with a reputation for fact-checking. Let me put it another way: You don't want to leave any doors open to challenging this material's inclusion in the encyclopedia, right? Well, unless the citations are performed properly, there's room to challenge. Which would you see as the more reliable statement?

• "L. Ron Hubbard said [insert crazy rant]" (Source: This possibly photoshopped scan hosted by my website)
• "L. Ron Hubbard said [insert crazy rant]" (Source: Time Magazine, Newsweek, The Los Angeles Tmes, etc.)

But fortunately, there has been a lot of reporting on these information leaks, and a lot of vetting of those leaks. So your job, now, is to find those reliable sources, avoid original research of your own, and provide those citations for incorporation into the article. --GoodDamon 23:48, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I completly understand you now. I tottaly get it. The issue is whenever some reputable org decides to cover something scientology related they get fair gamed hardcore. The book "the complex" is going to be available soon and I will try to use some sources from that for the whole dangurous cult angle. I would like to point out that some of the racist rants from hubbard are cited in The bare faced messiah.. That would be considerd a useable source yes? Because it is a book that has been put under INTENSE legal scrutiny to the point where every last mention of hubbard was verified. Could racist jibble from the book be used here? If so then I would definatly go about it that way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aaron Bongart (talk • contribs) 00:20, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely. Bare-Faced Messiah is a scholarly work by an author with a strong reputation for fact-checking, and as you say, it has been gone over practically word by word. In fact, it's already used frequently in the article. And since Anonymous hit the scene, no one's afraid of Fair Game anymore, which is why more and more newspapers cover Scientology unflinchingly. --GoodDamon 00:52, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Scientology not Church of Scientology

I'm making this comment because by reading the article about Scientology one may assume that Scientology and the Church of Scientology are the same thing. There are many people including myself that have left the Church of Scientology because -in short- they don't believe that L. Ron Hubbard's Scientology is taught and applied in the Church of Scientology.

To be fair, things that pertain to the Church of Scientology should be moved to a separate Wikipedia section. And the Church may be mentioned along with the other splinter groups that are mentioned in the Scientology page. Illusionist1 (talk) 23:32, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

The church is by far the largest organization in the world promoting Scientology (or a version of it, if you prefer), so any article that gives an overview of Scientology is necessarily going to touch on the church more than the splinter groups. Remember, this article isn't just about the Scientology belief system (that would be Scientology beliefs and practices), it's also about the scandals surrounding Scientology, the reactions of governments and other religions to it, etc. It's a summary style article that provides a bird's-eye-view of a lot of topics. --GoodDamon 23:57, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Scientology's Money Trail

• Smith, L. Christopher (December 2008). "Scientology's Money Trail: Celebrities! Tax shelters! Bart Simpson! A glimpse into the finances of the secretive church". Condé Nast Portfolio. 2008 Condé Nast Inc. Retrieved 2008-11-19.

Good source of material on financial info about the organization. Cirt (talk) 18:41, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for this: added to the "Finances" section of the Church of Scientology article.MartinPoulter (talk) 17:34, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Scientology was not 'created'

Scientology was not 'created'. You would not say that Christianity was created by Jesus Christ. You also would not say that the notion of God was created by a group of ignorant Egyptians and perpetuated by Jews. Similarly the jobs that a person has done are not relevant to describing something that they have discovered. We don't describe Christianity as: A body of beliefs and related practices created by a jewish Israeli criminal and carpenter Jesus Christ. The practices of Scientology were discovered by L Ron Hubbard. It would be objective to change the first sentence to: "Scientology is a body of beliefs and related practices written down by L. Ron Hubbard." If it is relevant it could carry on; "L. Ron Hubbard was the first practitioner of Scientology, he was also a science fiction writer." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.238.176.41 (talk) 21:17, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

WP:RS/WP:V secondary sources to back up this notion? Cirt (talk) 21:47, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

and I would certainly like to see evidence of it existing before the birth of Hubbard. --Rodhullandemu 22:27, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Hubbard may not have been aware, but the word "Scientology" was used prior to his definition of it, for entirely different usage, back in 1871. Cirt (talk) 22:37, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

The IP address editor needs to be aware that Wikipedia's core policies and guidelines require that the vast majority of its content be derived from sources that meet the criteria established in WP:RS, that those sources be verifiable per WP:V, that the majority of those sources match the majority viewpoint, per WP:WEIGHT, and that the material be neutral in tone, per WP:NPOV (of which WP:WEIGHT is a sub-policy). Now, the vast majority of sources for material that meets these Wikipedia standards are overwhelmingly negative about Scientology. They establish a few things that most Scientologists would probably take issue with:

• That Scientology was invented by L. Ron Hubbard
• That Scientology is largely regarded as a cult
• That Scientology is abusive towards its members
• That as you progress through Scientology, you learn about Xenu and the rest of the so-called "space opera"

And so on. These are no doubt regarded as little more than lies by most Scientologists. But the thing is, Wikipedia makes no judgment as to whether they are lies or not. As far as Wikipedia is concerned, the secondary sources it relies on have already determined what is and is not true, and there is no need for Wikipedia to further vet it.

If most of the material about Scientology available from secondary sources were overwhelmingly positive and accepted Hubbard at his word -- that he "discovered" Scientology -- then this article would reflect that. --GoodDamon 00:42, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Er, I somehow feel that this "majority rules" complex isn't constructive. Who's to say that Christianity wasn't created? It might have been. The majority of people might think otherwise; but, as you may recall, the majority of people used to believe the Sun was at the center of the Universe. Aren't sources required to be capable of proving ideas rather than simply being required to say something is right or wrong? Mind you, this is what it sounds like you're implying. Zencyde (talk) 13:32, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

The point is not whether Wikipedia reflects the views of the majority--its whether we reflect the verifiable majority. Although, it's often been said that if Wikipedia were around when the general assumption was that the world is flat, that is what would have been reflected on the Earth article. Wikipedia is NOT an outlet for truth, Wikipedia is a source of verifiable knowledge. All else is original research, which is not encyclopedic. ←Spidern→ 14:27, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

GoodDamon was just explaining the rules of Wikipedia. For me (from a Scientific Rationalism perspective) the No Original Research rule has been the hardest to get used to, for the sort of reasons you talk about, but it it were relaxed, every kind of crackpot would be editing their theories into articles, saying "just because every academic expert says this is rubbish, doesn't mean it is". That would be a disaster, so I'm persuaded the rule is a very good idea on the whole.MartinPoulter (talk) 14:28, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Christianity may well have been created (although in many respects its more like an extension of Judaism), but the fact is no one has yet uncovered enough evidence to prove or disprove that. The sources in the Wikipedia articles for Christianity and its related articles reflect that. On the other hand, we know that Scientology was created by Hubbard. There's no mystical Scientology tradition that existed in mystery and shadow for 1500 or whatever years, that Hubbard 'discovered'. There are no archaeological digs to uncover the history of Scientology, we have and we know DEFINITIVELY with sources to back it up, that Scientology was created by Hubbard in the early 50's. There is no argument, and if you believe that Scientology existed before Hubbard then I have some swampland in Florida I wanna sell you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KriticKill (talk • contribs) 15:46, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Hubbard Center closed up in Samara

• Staff (November 20, 2008). "Hubbard Center closed up in Samara". Interfax. www.interfax-religion.com. Retrieved 2008-11-20.

Relevant source of info for this article. Cirt (talk) 16:01, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Scientology Ceremonies?

I have removed the following section from the article. I have seen no academic or news mention of any of these ceremonies. The fact that the only sources used here are CESNUR and the Church of Scientology is concerning. Can anyone find any reliable secondary sources to back any of this knowledge up? ←Spidern→ 08:12, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

I've tried googling it, and I've taken a look through the religious references I have on hand, but I can't find anything about it. As we're not trying to reproduce in whole or in part any Scientology literature, I don't particularly mind if primary sources like those below are removed from the article. --GoodDamon 18:05, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Spidern, you removed a core practice of Scientology from the "Scientology" article. The RS, Régis Dericquebourg is "head lecturer in social psychology at the University of Lille" [1] which makes him a far better source than most of the other "authorities" in this article. Shutterbug (talk) 21:06, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

The text you restored included two links to a primary source, and the CESNUR source alone -- which is of questionable validity as far as reliability is concerned -- does not support the content. --GoodDamon 21:13, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

CESNUR is not the source, but a scholar paper by Regis Dericquebourg supported by CESNUR. What yardstick are you using? Shutterbug (talk) 21:17, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

What do you mean by the "yardstick" comment? I don't follow. In any event, my primary point was that the link didn't support the text. If Regis Dericquebourg is a noted religious scholar, I don't see anything specifically wrong with using a CESNUR-hosted courtesy link, although the disclaimers about its usage at the top lead me to wonder if there might not be a better article elsewhere. --GoodDamon 22:55, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't see anything wrong with using a CESNUR courtesy link either. That is why I disagreed when you removed it. The "yardstick" question meant what is your measure for a "reliable" source. When is a source reliable? I go as far as to say that private pages are NEVER a reliable source. Shutterbug (talk) 00:15, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

What's a "private page?" If you're referring to a non-news blog or something like that, I agree. But a "private page" can be something like that, or something like Rotten Tomatoes, which is now arguably as influential and respected in the world of movie reviews as Roger Ebert's review column. --GoodDamon 00:50, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

• Re CESNUR ... this Oxford University Press publication lists the CESNUR site as a recommended research source, along with peer-reviewed journals. Here another example of the academic reception of CESNUR. Hundreds of scholarly publications cite cesnur.org. Coverage in relevant literature: [2]. If anyone doubts the status of CESNUR as a reliable source, let's take this to RS/N. Jayen466 02:30, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Ceremonies

The Church of Scientology provides Sunday services as well as social ceremonies for marriage, birth, and death that are performed by an ordained Scientology minister. Most, if not all, of the actual ceremonies used were written by L. Ron Hubbard and are collected in the book, Ceremonies of the Church of Scientology. At a funeral service, the minister speaks directly to the departing spirit and grants forgiveness for anything the deceased has done so he can begin life anew.

Church of Scientology vs Scientology

This article has hardly any information about Scientology but concentrates on information about the Church of Scientology, incorporations, controversies, legal fights etc etc. How about moving some of this over to Church of Scientology? Shutterbug (talk) 21:25, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

What information do you think it should have, which it doesn't already? The corporations, controversies, and legal fights are all very critical in understanding the history of Scientology, and the behaviors described herein are not isolated to the organization called "Church of Scientology". ←Spidern→ 22:40, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

There does not seem to be a difference between the Scientology and Church of Scientology article. But Scientology is (dependent who you ask) a religion, philosophy, mindset etc and not an organizational network. Imagine you know nothing about Scientology and start reading. After three pages you still have no information about Scientology but learned a lot about controversies related to the Church of Scientology. That's what I think we need to change. Shutterbug (talk) 22:49, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I changed the sequence in this regard. Reads much more fluent now. Don't you agree? Shutterbug (talk) 22:56, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Scientology is notable mainly for its controversies. I'm sorry, but that's simply the way it is right now. You hardly see any mentions of it in any mainstream news or religious scholarly work without extensive coverage of the controversies. Without them, this article would barely merit a stub; it's a very tiny belief system with about 50,000 practitioners in the United States, somewhat less even than the Bahá'í Faith, with 150,000 members. --GoodDamon 23:03, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

What makes this not your personal opinion but an objective fact? There are almost 400 articles on Wikipedia, one for each slightest facet of Scientology, its members, organizations etc etc. This article is about Scientology and not its controversies. It should supply an overview of what Scientology is and not how something thinks it is being perceived right now. What happened to WP:NPOV here? Shutterbug (talk) 23:30, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Here's a simple test: Find a news article about Scientology. Not something about the recent shooting, or something about Tom Cruise, or anything like that, but about Scientology itself.

• Does it mention Xenu?
• Does it call Scientology "controversial" or any variant thereof?
• Does it mention the Church of Scientology's extensive history of litigation?
• Does it otherwise mention any of the things that are largely regarded as unusual or controversial about Scientology, such as the RPF, or Fair Game?

If the answer to all of these is no, then you've found a very rare article about Scientology. --GoodDamon 00:42, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Archival of "dianetics" subsection of "beliefs and practices"

I am attempting to transform the "beliefs and practices" section into more of a summary-style intro of Scientology beliefs, saving the nitty-gritty stuff for the appropriate separate articles. In so doing, I have removed a large portion of the "dianetics" section which I am placing here in the case that somebody could salvage it for usage on dianetics or elsewhere. ←Spidern→ 09:12, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Dianetics

The mind in Scientology is described as a "bank of mental image pictures" that give the spirit experience and knowledge. It is accepted by Scientologists that traumatic experiences (or engrams) inhibit success and happiness in life. Scientologists subdivide the mind into the analytical or conscious mind, which is and what is referred to as the reactive mind.

The spirit, represented with the Greek letter 'theta' (θ), is thought to exist exterior to and/or independent from a body. In 1952, Hubbard reported he was able to stand as a unit of life independently of the physical body. Hubbard called the phenomenon "exteriorization".

Scientology describes the physical body as "a carbon-oxygen machine" of which the spirit is the engineer. Illnesses and injuries to the body are said to be relieved through the use of "assists."

Silent birth

I realize that silent birth is notable enough to merit its own page on English Wikipedia, but this section was too bad to leave in. Nearly every statement was referenced to primary sources, starting with "Hubbard said", "Hubbard declared", etc. I also think undue weight might have been given, having this on the main Scientology page. If anyone wants to salvage this, we need a summary-style description in a paragraph to be put in the beliefs and practices main section. ←Spidern→ 07:14, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Silent birth and infant care

Main article: Silent birth

Stemming from his belief that birth is a trauma that may induce engrams, Hubbard stated that the delivery room should be as silent as possible and that words should be avoided because any words used during birth might be reassociated by adults with their earlier traumatic birth experience.

Hubbard also wrote that the mother should use "as little anesthetic as possible." In the 1960s Hubbard gave certain dietary recommendations, writing that breastfeeding should be avoided if the mother is smoking, drinking or is lacking good nutrition herself. Hubbard described common replacement formulas as "mixed milk powder, glucose and water, total carbohydrate" and offered as an alternative to commercial products what he called the "Barley Formula" made from barley water, homogenized milk and corn syrup. Hubbard said that he "picked it up in Roman days," referring to the use of barley. Hubbard crafted the barley formula to, in his words, provide "a heavy percentage of protein" and called it "the nearest approach to human milk that can be assembled easily." Although the formula is still popular with many Scientologists, health practitioners advise that it is an inappropriate replacement due to the absence of important nutrients like Vitamin C, the lack of which causes scurvy.

Controversies

The majority of this article is about Scientology controversies while hardly any space is used on things like what Scientology does, what Scientologists do and why etc. This article seems to concentrate on controversy. There is a separate article for that already so we should work on making this a summary article of all facets of Scientology. It starts with the lead section which consists to 70% of "controversy", all related to the Church of Scientology, which - again - has its own article. Spidern removed dozens of sources and managed to shrink the article by a lot (without anyone saying "blip" I might add). This is good. Now let's add more reliable sources written by people who know what they are talking about and get rid of the fluff. Shutterbug (talk) 22:46, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

The reliable, third party sources focus on the controversy. Following WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE, we need to follow the weight given to the topic in the reliable sources. If you would like to help find reliable, third party sources that discuss "what Scientology does, what Scientology do and why etc.", that would be quite beneficial. What is currently in the article, that you believe is "fluff"? DigitalC (talk) 22:54, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but it's not WP:RS sources that focus on controversy but the editors of this article. Look at the thread above, Spidern and Su-Jada had started looking up sources that are not connected to the anti-Scientology crowd but written by people whose NPOV is unchallenged. We need more of those actually added in the article. "Fluff" for example is the section "History". It talks about individual court cases, some local law enforcement activities, all a good 30+ years old but makes no mention about the fact that in 1993 the Church of Scientology has been recognized by the IRS as charitable organization. I would say this is part of the "history", isn't it. Also no mention is made about where Scientology is located, which countries, since then. All material I would expect in a "History" section. But no, there is only "fluff" about a couple of bad Scientologists. That's WP:UNDUE weight. Shutterbug (talk) 23:06, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Please assume good faith, rather than asserting that editors are purposefully focusing on controversy. The majority of mainstream sources I have seen do not have a positive POV towards the church, and I certainly haven't been looking for sources "connected to the anti-Scientology crowd". If the IRS position is to be mentioned, again that would have to be NPOV, which would mean incorporating statements from the other POV, which I'm sure exist. I don't think that where Scientology is located is relevant to history, nor is which countries it operates out of. Thats not undue weight, simply material not relevant to history, as they aren't historical events or facts. DigitalC (talk) 03:13, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Edit dispute over paragraph in lead.

Here are the edits in question:

• (1)
• (2)
• (3)

I believe that it is a highly relevant to have this paragraph in the lead. Shutterbug disagrees. I do not understand his argument, as the content of the paragraph is not only limited to the organization called "Church of Scientology". I also do not agree that it is a "bulgy repetition of the controversy section". It is not a sin to repeat information which is relevant, particularly when presented in summary style in the lead of an article. ←Spidern→ 22:56, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I have restored it to the previous version, and urge Shutterbug to abide by WP:BRD. --GoodDamon 23:05, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Ok, here we are. As noted above this section presents undue weight for an article about Scientology and is a violation of WP:NPOV. The opinion of one article writer of Time magazine of 1991 is not representative for 54 years of Scientology worldwide. Then "One major litigation point is that of copyright infringement.". The source does not show that and I highly doubt this as verifiable. Further, it has no relevance in a WP:LEAD section. These two phrases have no backing in WP:NPOV, WP:UNDUE and WP:LEAD. Shutterbug (talk) 23:18, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Do we really have to go through all this again? It's been months. Alright...

• This article is primarily about the Church of Scientology's copyright enforcement efforts. That sentence is a very good summary of the entire article.
• WP:NPOV does not mean the article must be balanced between positive and negative material. It means the article must be neutral in tone. Let me be blunt: The vast, overwhelming majority of reliable sources take a dim view of Scientology. That Wikipedia reflects that is not a violation of WP:NPOV. You need to accept that the article will reflect most of the written material available about Scientology, and that is normal. The alternative would be to try finding reliable sources that paint Pol Pot as a nice fellow, and the Dalai Lama as a jerk, to provide "balance."
• Per WP:LEAD: The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article. It should establish context, explain why the subject is interesting or notable, and summarize the most important points—including any notable controversies that may exist.

I hope this helps. --GoodDamon 23:40, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

(e/c) Tend to agree broadly with Shutterbug. Picking out a string of press articles in this way is a kind of WP:OR. There are scholarly sources that address how Scientology has been received. Jayen466 23:42, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

• Just to address the question of tone, have a look at how Scientology is discussed in this work, authored by a leading U.S. scholar of religion (there are many pages discussing Scientology in this book, not just the first one that comes up when you click on the link; you can search within the book; a dedicated section on Scientology begins on page 196). This kind of tone is quite normal in scholarly works – although obviously, there is a broad spectrum of opinion, with some scholars like Kent more outspokenly critical – and it's a far cry from the tone adopted by an early nineties Time magazine article. Here are other relevant sources to peruse. Jayen466 23:50, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
  • The leading scholarly author on Scientology is Stephen Kent, who has published peer-reviewed articles on the topic. Of course, we would also have to define what we mean by scholarly. Would you consider Scientology:To Be Perfectly Clear to be a scholarly work?. Further, we are not bound to use scholarly works, and the tone of articles in the mainstream media (3rd party sources) should be used to determine the tone of the article DigitalC (talk) 00:11, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Source for your statement about Kent? Shutterbug (talk) 00:23, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

That would be an original research statement, which is perfectly acceptable for talk page discussion, as I am not advocating using it in the article. DigitalC (talk) 00:34, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

(outdent)Stephen A. Kent is the leading and most outspoken scholarly critic of Scientology, representing one extreme of the spectrum of scholarly opinion with regard to Scientology. But the Encyclopedia Britannica, e.g., got Melton to write their article on Scientology, not Kent. Melton is comfortably at the other extreme of the spectrum. WP:RS tells us that Academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources when available. On this topic, we have literally hundreds of academic and peer-reviewed publications available. I do not see support in WP:RS for the notion that mainstream media sources should set the tone of an article in the way that you argue. Cheers, Jayen466 00:26, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

• • • Btw, to answer your question, while it may be a bit dated, of course Stark & Bainbridge qualifies as a scholarly work. Jayen466 00:33, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

That wouldn't be in WP:RS, that would be in WP:NPOV, in which we should weight the tone of the article according to the reliable sources used. DigitalC (talk) 00:34, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't see such support in WP:NPOV either. NPOV tells us to reflect published viewpoints in proportion to their prominence in WP:RS. In other words, we have to cover the viewpoints of, say, Wallis (also dated), Wilson, and Melton as well as those of Kent et al. Would you agree? Jayen466 00:40, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with Wallis or Wilson. Do you have links to their work? I would agree that if viewpoints are raised prominently in reliable sources, they should be reflected in the article. DigitalC (talk) 03:29, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Source for latest notable scientology event

• Wagner, James (24-11-2008). "Swordsman slain at Scientology center was from out of state, L.A. investigators say". Los Angeles Times. Retrieved 25-11-2008. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= and |date= (help)

Not really relevant to the main Scientology article. See WP:NOTNEWS. --GoodDamon 23:06, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Agree with GoodDamon ←Spidern→ 23:21, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Agree too. Jayen466 23:52, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Disagree. When combined with previous altercations that have occured at Scientology buildings, a subsection could be added to the article. The essay on NOTNEWS is not applicable, as I am not proposing an "[article] about items in the news", only that this source may be used to add relevant information. Perhaps you meant WP:NOT#NEWS, but even that is irrelevant, because it states "News coverage can be useful source material for encyclopedic topics, but not all events warrant an encyclopedia article of their own". Again, I am not advocating creating an article on this event, but that it may be "useful source material" for this article.

• See also The Oregonian] for coverage of an attack in Portland in 1996.
• I may be mistaken, but I believe there was another event in addition to these 2.

DigitalC (talk) 00:45, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Event reporting is for newspapers, not for an encyclopedia, at least per WP:NOT ("Wikipedia considers the historical notability of persons and events.") and WP:NOTE ("Wikipedia is not a news source: it takes more than just a short burst of news reports about a single event or topic to constitute evidence of sufficient notability. The Wikimedia project Wikinews covers topics of present news coverage."). Shutterbug (talk) 02:48, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps you should review WP:N and WP:NOT, as your comment looks like wiki-lawyering. Notability is only relevant as to whether an article exists or does not exist. It has no relevance on whether something should or should not be included in an article. As such, "the historical notability" is irrelevant in this context. ("These notability guidelines only pertain to the encyclopedic suitability of topics for articles but do not directly limit the content of articles."). As for WP:NOT, the only potentially relevant part is "While including information on recent developments is sometimes appropriate, breaking news should not be emphasized or otherwise treated differently from other information.". I am not asking for the content to "be emphasized or otherwise treated differently from other information". So again, you may wish to review policy and guidelines, so as to not misinterpret policy to justify inappropriate actions. DigitalC (talk) 03:03, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I guess we will not solve this. Care to ask for mediation? Shutterbug (talk) 03:28, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Cult awareness network in history

I have undid revision 253886670 by User:Shutterbug. The information is objective, well-sourced, and is very relevant to the article and section. ←Spidern→ 23:17, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree, it is object, well-sourced and very relevant to the article. But not the "history" section. There is nothing historical about the bankruptcy of a deprogrammer group. They were critics and that is where this section belongs.Shutterbug (talk) 23:23, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

The characterization of the New CAN as a "promotional arm for the Church of Scientology" is contradicted by some more recent academic sources. See [3] (James R. Lewis, 2005), [4] (Anson Shupe, 2006). Jayen466 23:31, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Controversy inside the controversy... I think this should be added. Shutterbug (talk) 23:39, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

A plea for calm

This article and this talk page have been relatively calm for months now. All of a sudden, the same old arguments over the lead are popping up, and the article is starting to look like it's being battled over again. One major point of concern for me is that several editors are trying, all of a sudden, to remove reliably-sourced material outright. For example, in this edit, User:Su-Jada removed references to Time Magazine and Salon with the completely inaccurate edit summary "rm non-notable/opinion". I have very little good faith to grant for utterly inappropriate edits like that which smack of POV-pushing and conflicts of interest. This kind of behavior needs to stop immediately. So I ask that everyone take a step back, breathe for a moment, and talk first. Preferably before an incident report gets filed on any of this. Remember, it's bold, revert, discuss, not bold, revert, bold, revert, bold...ad infinitum... --GoodDamon 01:02, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Let's talk and no personal attacks, please. The reason why these old issues keep coming up is that they never have been resolved. And in the last months no one was here challenging the reliability, verifiability and NPOV-compatibility of this article. So we got this piece which is almost wholly based on tabloid style sources or primary sources to push a certain POV, like DigitalC said: "third party sources focus on the controversy". That's exactly the problem. Third party sources get filtered to forward a majority editor's (not majority source's) POV. But that is not what WP:NPOV means. Shutterbug (talk) 02:33, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

The Thriving Cult of Greed and Power#Awards Tabloid? AndroidCat (talk) 03:34, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

First off, Shutterbug, stop. I didn't commit a personal attack, and I ask you to immediately retract the accusation. I described an edit accurately and explained the issues with it as an example of the sorts of problematic editing I'm seeing springing up. And you absolutely must stop trying to describe reliable sources from Salon to Time Magazine as "tabloid." I could formally take that to the reliable sources noticeboard, but I doubt you want that. The administrators will make it quite clear that those are reliable sources, and that will be that.

Secondly, the primary sources this article contains are Church of Scientology-owned websites. I'm assuming those aren't the ones you were talking about, so could you be more specific about the references you take issue with? --GoodDamon 03:48, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I Second the motion to talk. Lets start with why you think that the Cult Awareness Network's bankruptcy is being given undue weight. The CAN being bankrupted by Scientology-related lawsuits is important information which, like it or not, is part of the the Church's history. It is well-sourced, and belongs in the history section. The dispute of "religion" status must be given more weight than the actual beliefs because the issues it deals with are covered by more media than the actual beliefs themselves, who are practiced by under 55,000 people (as of 2001). And why should a critical statement made by Time, a reputable news source quoted from an article which won awards, be removed from the lead? ←Spidern→ 03:59, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

GoodDamon--I applaud your plea for calm but I must admit I see a lack of this in your own posting here. Frankly, I would describe the 17-year old (1991) Time Magazine article as dated and more than a bit sensational (i.e. tabloid) myself (you've read it, right?) but whether you or I like it or not, certainly a quote from a legitimate scholar on the subject is something we want to encourage in the article. I also think Shutterbug has the right to express her views of sources, and defend her right to do so just as I would defend your rights here as well. Let's all of us focus on providing scholarly references to upgrade this article, rather than engaging in personal attacks.Su-Jada (talk) 04:08, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Cirt's edits

Cirt, with all due respect, you would not be the person call COI edits. As a reminder you might want to look at your own edit history and the one's of your earlier user names. Please contribute on the talk page instead of deleting WP:RS-conform sources. Shutterbug (talk) 03:45, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Speaking of which: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/COFS Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/COFS/Evidence AndroidCat (talk) 03:50, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I am at least open about my viewpoints (and I contribute with information instead of accusations). That "evidence" is still a lie - as Cirt knows very well - and this ArbCom did not solve anything. I think we need a new one, this time including you, Cirt, GoodDamon and some of these new Anonymous-connected editors. Justanother seems to be "dead". Misou probably O.D.ed on beer. Did I forget anyone? Shutterbug (talk) 04:18, 25 November 2008 (UTC)