Talk:Muhammad

re: Images on the Arabic Wikipedia

• http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad&oldid=192924201

I cannot find this discussion in the archives, so I'm copying it from history now. /X

Edit requested

{{editsemiprotected}}

An Edit is requested. I made a recent study on Muhammad's father. I found an interesting discovery.. According to Ibn-Hashim and Ibn Ishaq (Historians) Muhammad's Father and Grandfather married 2 different women in the same day. Abdullah married Amina and Abdul-Muttalib married Hala. According to records Muhammad's father died a few months after marriying Amina, Records also show that Hamza (Son of Abdul-Muttalib and Hala) was 4 years older than Muhammad. Which means that Muhammad was born more than 3 years after his father's death since Abdullah and his father married in the same day. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Inreet (talk • contribs) 09:58, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

i want to edit a pic on this page give me the rights or how can i become the established user for editing.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Imaerian (talk • contribs) 06:21, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Resolved

Achieving "established" status is simple: your account simply has to exist for four days, and you have to have made 10 edits. That's it. You can read Wikipedia:User access levels for more info on this. However, I would go to Talk:Muhammad/Images and post there before editing any images on this page, since this is such a controversial topic. Also, in the future, you should ask questions like this on your own talk page, using the {{helpme}} template. {{editsemiprotected}} is for requesting specific edits to this article. Thanks, and happy editing!--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 06:34, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Need clean-up

Some links are broken, but I am not sure whether these links are intended to be included in this article or not. Can anyone help? Thanks. --Minjokherald (talk) 03:33, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Removal of Pics

Kindly remove the so called pics of Prophet Muhammed (S.A.W).

Regards,

For All Muslims

S. H. Khan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.181.99.54 (talk) 16:28, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not censored. If you find these images offensive, you can configure your browser not to display them, see here. Ollie Fury _Contribs 18:44, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

You have only heard of 2 Muslims right now who have only but kindly asked to remove the pictures. The Muslim Ummah does not care whether wikipedia is censored or not. The Dutch printed a cartoon of Prophet Muhammad, that was within itself controversial because of content. but regardless we not only got the company to apologize but also the government. The Pope said derogatory comments and we made him apologize. If this leaks out to the known public, we muslims don't give a rats ass whether your laws permit you to put up these pictures. Eventually we will get them reversed through peaceful or forceful means. I rather you keep yourself on the safe side and not bring up a huge controversy and just remove that damn pics. Your information does not need the use of pictures that depict the prophet in anyway. So do the world a favor and take them off.

CapTa1n_Half —Preceding unsigned comment added by CapTa1n Half (talk • contribs) 11:24, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

OK, that sounds like a threat. I highly suggest you retract that statement immediately or your account will very likely be banned on the spot. --StuffOfInterest (talk) 11:33, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, that is a threat. How anyone can change Wikipedia through forceful means is beyond me anyway. Wikipedia is for everyone-those who do not want to view these pictures have been given the option of turning them off. Ollie Fury _Contribs 15:19, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

How is a historic depiction of the prophet of one of the largest religions in the world "not relevant"? Even if there were no depictions per se, people still have an image in mind when they think of the Prophet, and historical accuracy and imagery should always take precedent over other's beliefs. The fact that these images exist shows that it's not simply contributors and readers of Wikipedia who feel this way, but artists of the pasts felt a need to draw a stronger connection to Him through these depictions. Can I simply ask, what would be the consequence of depicting Mohamed? Am I to believe no scholar of the Quran has had an image of the prophet come to mind when researching him? What about those who had laid eyes upon him? If they had produced a depiction, would it have been considered unlawful, despite being based upon his earthly form? Carson (talk) 01:36, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

CapTa1n Half: The civilized world does not cave to threats. Your language bears all the hallmarks of someone who has been brainwashed to a way of thinking that is bankrupt to its core. There are 3000 religions on this planet; yours is but one of them. Please realize that if you can't learn to get along with the 2,999 other religions, then you deserve little that civilized world has to offer you. Wikipedia is a depository of information for the English-speaking world. Its talk pages are a marketplace where ideas are exchanged. Thank you very much for giving us some insight into your type of mentality. Makes me shudder. Signed, with pleasure, 67.185.247.179 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.185.247.179 (talk) 16:05, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I completely disagree with the previous post on forceful removal of the pictures but as a Muslim and a long time member of Wikipedia, I would kindly request that those pictures be removed. They're posted on an encyclopaedic article about Islam but if Islam finds them offensive, it seems contradictory to keep them on there - it's almost like a false portrayal of the religion and Wikipedia's about accuracy so I don't believe there is a competent reason to keep them up there. Fatla00 (talk) 03:00, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

You have no idea what the Wikipedia project is or what it is about if you profess to be a "long time member" and still ask for their removal. Tarc (talk) 03:11, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Tarc, there is no reason to insult other editors or give terse answers like "no" which don't help explain to the editors. There is room for differences of opinion and users should be treated with respect.

Fatla00, articles about Islam are not made up of only Islamic sources--nor should they be. But first, it's important to note that the images themselves are from Islamic sources. Islam has two important dimensions. The diversity of views which exist across geographical dimensions and the diversity of views which exist across time. Mutazilism is a very marginal force in Islam today but at the end of the first millennium it was very important. Therefore, we cover it in this encyclopedia even if Islam today views it as marginal. These pictures were drawn by Muslim artists. They did not represent the entire population of their times but they did represent important segments of at least the ruling classes in Turkey or Persia (since only the rulers could afford paintings like this). The question is are these important enough traditions about Muhammad to warrant entry into his article. I have argued that a very limited number of importantly chosen images do warrant a place in the article but that they must be contextualized since corporal images are far rarer than other types when representing Muhammad--but does that not make them historically unimportant. The argument for their removal cannot be that they are insulting to Muslims. Firstly, that is a broad overstatement and secondly even if that was true if it accuracy represents an important historic period of representation of Muhammad then it is encyclopedically important. These images say more about people from a certain epoch felt about Muhammad than they do about Muhammad himself as an historical figure. But, Muhammad is made important by how later generations represent him and there are significant enough strains of corporal representation that there should be some inclusion in this article. Feel free to argue about that--their importance within history. I spent hours at my library documenting all I could about Muhammad in Islamic art and Islamic art in general to try to have academic sources discuss Muhammad in Islamic art and its importance. This type of research is important to include and use to judge how we should use images. Feeling that the images are offensive or that they should be included by default simply because they exist are not valid responses--this is not portraiture. I hope this response helps. gren グレン 07:21, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your concern, but I will explain it how I see fit. My preference would be to just revert "remove the pics!" requests entirely from this talk page, and no even deal with the same, tired explanations to the same, tired fundamentalist demands. This is a settled matter, consensus will not change it, and WP:BITE has no application here. Tarc (talk) 16:04, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Please answer me this: Why should Islam's opinion matter? An encyclopedia exists to present information. We don't censor Nazi history because it is touchy for Germany, nor do we censor Eliot Spitzer's indiscretions because they are rather embarrassing for him. Likewise, we don't censor these images because it offends a few people's religious sensibilities. You can choose to be offended, or you can choose not to be offended. That is your right. It is not your right to tell me what I should and should not be offended about. Resolute 03:19, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Removal of Picture at least

In the section of Traditional Views sub headed European and Western Views there is a particular image of Muhammad(PBUH) suppposedly placing the Black stone. This picture has various factual errors as it was fabricated at about 1315 about 7 centuries after the prophet Muhammad(PBUH)'s life so therefore the author's depiction is incorrect. Moreover, the artist himself "Rashid al-Din" is from a Jewish denomination so therefore the image that he has fabricated is biased due to conflicts between Islam and Judaism. As well as the text under the picture tells the reader that this is a picture of Muhammad(PBUH) and does not make it clear that this is an fabrication by a Jewish artist that has much controversy. By allowing this picture to be displayed on Wikipedia, you are in effect twisting people's knowledge and beliefs on Islam. Please remove the unwanted image.

Regards,

A Barden

No. Tarc (talk) 19:03, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

A Barden, please read important notice at top of page for more information. Garycompugeek (talk) 19:18, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

See message above. You can opt to remove these pictures when you view pages like this if you want. Ollie Fury _Contribs 21:50, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

please remove the pics of prophet muhammed. it is true that we can change the settings of our browser but how can we muslims be in peace when we know that some muslims and even non muslims look at those pictures and study them accidentally or even on purpose when we know that pictures of living things are prohibited in islam? i beg you in the name of all muslims to remove those pictures because its an insult to our prophet ant our religion. please understand our feelings. no one would appreciate someone else insulting their religion. i know in this modern world pictures are common but no matter what religion is the same and we have the right to tell you what its like in islam. as you know there are stuff from non muslim biographies of prophet muhammed too and we feel its a must to remind you that in islam this is an insult. please please think about this —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.84.130.48 (talk) 16:49, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I am sorry but the answer is no. As stated before, Wikipedia is not censored. I can only suggest that you create an account, and configure your browser to remove these pictures. Ollie Fury _Contribs 17:46, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I am a muslim. Don't remove anything. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.235.174.59 (talk) 20:53, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

In Islam, depiction of ANY one of the prophets in the form of pictures and so forth is prohibited. What is your basis for not removing it? I'd like to amicably ask for the removal of the prophet's pictures. I find some of the pictures to be pretty insulting. I do believe that some of the pictures were posted not out of hatred and possibly simply due to the love of knowledge. But the priority would be not to offend people of different faith.