Talk:United Kingdom: Difference between revisions

Content deleted Content added

Inline

Revision as of 11:02, 13 December 2008

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the United Kingdom article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38: 14 days

view · edit

Frequently asked questions

Q1: Is the United Kingdom a "country"?

A1: Reliable sources support the view that the United Kingdom is a single country. This view is shared with other major reputable encyclopedias. There has been a long-standing consensus to describe the UK in this way.

Q2: Why isn't Great Britain listed as one of the names of the United Kingdom, in the lead?

A2: See the article entitled "Terminology of the British Isles". Great Britain is the name of the largest island that the UK encompasses, and is not generally used in source material as the name of the country. Indeed, Britain 2001, the "official reference book" of the United Kingdom produced by the Office for National Statistics for "British diplomatic posts" says in its foreword:

The term 'Britain' is sometimes used as a short way of expressing the full title of the country: the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (or more simply again, the United Kingdom or the UK). 'Great Britain' comprises England, Wales and Scotland only.
— Office for National Statistics, (2001), Britain 2001: The Official Yearbook of the United Kingdom, p. vii

This view is reiterated by the Prime Minister's Office, which states:

The United Kingdom is made up of four countries: England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Its full name is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. 'Great Britain', however, comprises only England, Scotland and Wales. Great Britain is the largest island of the British Isles.
— Countries within a country, number10.gov.uk (archived version from April 2010)

A report submitted to the United Nations Economic and Social Council by the Permanent Committe on Geographical Names and the Ordnance Survey states:

Great Britain consists of England + Scotland + Wales. The term is exclusive of Northern Ireland and is therefore not a synonym for the term "United Kingdom".
— United Nations Economic and Social Council (2007). "Ninth United Nations Conference on the standardization of Geographical Names" (PDF).

There has been a long-standing consensus not to include Great Britain in the lead as an interchangable name of the state.

Q2b: Is Britain really one of the names of the United Kingdom?

A2b: Whether Britain should be listed as an alternative name in the lead has been discussed often, most extensively in August 2007 and April 2011; and whether the alternate name Britain should be qualified with "incorrect" in June 2006, with "informally" in September 2006, or with "mistakenly" in January 2011.

Q3: Isn't the United Kingdom a "collection of countries"?

A3: This is one of the most common questions raised on this talk page, but consistently, consensus goes against taking that approach. No major reputable source describes the UK in this way. However the history of the formation of the United Kingdom, supported by source material, highlights that England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales are "countries within a country". Please also refer to Q4.

Q4: Are England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales countries?

A4: This is the most frequent question raised by visitors to this talk page, and the issue which generates the most debate. However, as a result of a lack of a formal British constitution, and owing to a convoluted history of the formation of the United Kingdom, a variety of terms exist which are used to refer to England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. Reliable and official sources support use of the word "countries":

As the UK has no written constitution in the usual sense, constitutional terminology is fraught with difficulties of interpretation and it is common usage nowadays to describe the four constituent parts of the UK (Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland) as “countries”.
— Scottish Parliament. "Your Scotland questions; Is Scotland a country?". scottish.parliament.uk. Retrieved 2008-08-01.

On Wikipedia, the term has broadly won preference amongst the editing community (note, however, that a country is not the same as a sovereign state). Also commonplace is the phrase "constituent country, or countries", when referring to the countries as elements of the UK. This phrase, however, is not an actual term; ie Scotland is not a 'constituent country' in itself, but is one of the constituent countries of the UK. The community endeavours to achieve an atmosphere of neutrality and (for the sake of stability) compromise on the various UK naming issues. See also Countries of the United Kingdom for more details about the terms that have been used to describe England, Northern Ireland, Scotland, and Wales.

Q5: Why don't we refer to England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales as nations, or by the term "Home Nations"?

A5: Widespread confusion surrounds the use of the word "nation". In standard British English, and in academic language, a nation is a social group of two or more people, and not a division of land. This is also the approach taken in the nation article, and across Wikipedia (for example, the English people and the Québécois are described as "nations", reflecting real world practice). The term Home Nations is generally used only in sporting contexts. It is not used in any major reputable sources outside of sport, and is not the approach taken by any other encyclopedia.

Q6: Isn't Northern Ireland a province, and Wales a principality?

A6: This view is supported by some sources, but the current consensus amongst the editing community is aligned to a greater body of work which describes both Northern Ireland and Wales as countries. However, the terms are not all mutually exclusive: a country can also be a principality or a province, and these terms are mentioned throughout Wikipedia as alternative names in afternotes.

Q7: Why isn't the flag of Northern Ireland shown in the article?

A7: Northern Ireland has not had its own unique, government sanctioned flag since its government was prorogued in 1972, and abolished in 1973 under the Northern Ireland Constitution Act 1973. During official events, the British government uses the Union Flag — the flag of the United Kingdom — and this is the only flag used by the government in Northern Ireland. The consensus is to reflect this in the article with a note.

Q8: Why is "British Isles" not mentioned in the introduction?

A8: Again, Wikipedia editors often disagree on the acceptability and suitability of various terms and phrases. This term is not favoured by a number of Wikipedia editors, and is currently not used in the introduction both to simplify the status quo, and also to discourage edit warring.

United Kingdom was one of the Geography and places good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
May 3, 2006	Peer review	Reviewed
July 22, 2006	Good article nominee	Listed
September 30, 2006	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
February 11, 2007	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
October 3, 2008	Good article reassessment	Delisted
Current status: Delisted good article

Archives

Country/State debate archives

Terminology debate archives

Subdivision name debate archives

April 2008 – June 2008

This page has archives.

Tagline for picture of Ben Nevis incorrect

Just to say that the accompanying tag line for the photograph of Ben Nevis is incorrect; it is part of the Cairngorm mountain range, not the Grampians. If someone could check and change that, that would be marvellous.

David, 30/11/08

My understanding is that the Cairngorm mountain range is part of the Grampian Mountains. Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 15:20, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Standard links

These are the standard links I would suggest adding, as they cover all the major UK websites someone might be interested in:

"United Kingdom". The World Factbook (2024 ed.). Central Intelligence Agency.
United Kingdom at UCB Libraries GovPubs
United Kingdom at Curlie
Flatterworld (talk) 06:34, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

music section

I'm not convinced there's much of an argument for Amy MacDonald's "massive contribution to popular music"! Sure, a number 1 album in Switserland is highly commendable but it wreaks of fan insertion, as does the inclusion of KT Tunstall, who managed a worldwide peak chart position of no 3 (New Zealand) for her last album. I don't think these figures have really set the world (or even the country) alight, but maybe the fact that they're both female singer songwriters from central Scotland sets them apart?!

To be included in the section of UK music, and mentioned in the same breath as The Beatles, The Who, The Smiths, Amy Winehouse and Coldplay is, at least, moderately comical, but I feel perhaps their manager(s) should stick to promotion through the normal channels.

Thisrain (talk) 01:06, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't disagree with you, though I also find the mention of Amy Winehouse in the same breath as The Beatles amusing! Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 16:19, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The UK or Britain

The term 'the UK' could be replaced by 'Britain' in this article and some others. 'UK' is problematic since it is mainly of local use^[1]. Using Britain instead of UK is correct in the frame of political matters. And it does include Northern Ireland. Even Downing St. uses it this way and explains so on their website. There are two external manual of styles that explain the use ^[2]^[3].Springwalk (talk) 11:17, 12 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The United Kingdom should be used on these articles to avoid confusion and prevent arguments breaking out about "Britain doesnt include Northern Ireland". The UK certainly isnt just a local term, our countries offical title is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, shorted to the UK. UK is used at the United Nations, NATO, CIA world fact book, IMF and World Bank. I dont have a problem with the "British Government" or "British forces" because people of Northern Ireland are British but we have to be careful with just saying "Britain". The term "Britain" should certainly be avoided on sections and pages that talk of sovereignty. I undid the change you made on the parliament of the UK page because the opening paragraph had "It alone has parliamentary sovereignty, conferring it ultimate power over all other political bodies in Britain" That is just not as clear as saying over the United Kingdom or UK. BritishWatcher (talk) 11:32, 12 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. The term "Britain" is somewhat underspecified, and thus ambiguous, as the OED entry shows. And it's simply odd to claim that "UK ... is mainly of local use", or in any other way problematic. Given the choice between the UK and Britain, the former is quite clearly the better option when Northern Ireland is included. garik (talk) 12:41, 12 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I accept that Britain can be used as a synonym for United Kingdom, which is what the style guides show, but that's a different thing from saying that it should be used here. I don't find the local use argument convincing, for the reasons outlined in the two responses above. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:11, 12 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Neither do I. DDStretch (talk) 17:15, 12 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, if used properly Britain means England/Wales/Scotland hence the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. That is not to say that people in Northern Ireland are not British Citizens or to make any value judgements. --Snowded TALK 17:40, 12 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh god, not this AGAIN. Malcolm XIV (talk) 19:07, 12 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Notes and references

^ The standard 2-letter code for the United Kingdom is GB: "ISO 3166 code lists".
^ "Britain", Oxford English Dictionary (Online Edition): "Britain: 1a - The proper name of the whole island containing England, Wales, and Scotland, with their dependencies; more fully called Great Britain; now also used for the British state or empire as a whole."
^ The term Britain is more commonly used as a political term: an alternative name for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Ref: Guardian Unlimited Style Guide, Guardian News and Media Limited, 2007

formed from the Lordship of Ireland in 1541 and brought under English control by 1691,

I don't think it appropriate to include the statement "formed from the Lordship of Ireland in 1541 and brought" under English control by 1691, preferring the shorter phrase "already under English control by 1691." I do not see that the date of formation of the Kingdom of Ireland or how it was formed is relevant for this article any more than the date of the formation of the Kingdom of England or Kingdom of Scotland would be. I do not think this article would benefit from general details of the history of Scotland or England being added, and that goes for the history of Ireland as well: in my view, all that is relevant from those histories is what directly affects the United Kingdom. Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 10:15, 13 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think readers need context. The danger is that the various unions were different. Scotland and England came together by mutual agreement. The Kingdom of Ireland had a very different history. By the time of the union of Ireland with England/Scotland it was in effect a decision of the English Parliament and was motivated in part (if not the main) following an early united Ireland move. Ireland itself has a temporary period as an independent Kingdom largely under English pressure. Its a complex history and the danger is that the impression is given of a gradual coming together of long standing political entities. --Snowded TALK 11:02, 13 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

[ISO-1] The standard 2-letter code for the United Kingdom is GB: "ISO 3166 code lists".

[OED-2] "Britain", Oxford English Dictionary (Online Edition): "Britain: 1a - The proper name of the whole island containing England, Wales, and Scotland, with their dependencies; more fully called Great Britain; now also used for the British state or empire as a whole."

[GUSG-3] The term Britain is more commonly used as a political term: an alternative name for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Ref: Guardian Unlimited Style Guide, Guardian News and Media Limited, 2007

[1]

[2]

[3]

Revision as of 10:15, 13 December 2008 edit Fishiehelper2 (talk \| contribs) 13,440 edits →‎formed from the Lordship of Ireland in 1541 and brought under English control by 1691,: new section ← Previous edit		Revision as of 11:02, 13 December 2008 edit undo Snowded (talk \| contribs) Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers 37,615 edits →‎formed from the Lordship of Ireland in 1541 and brought under English control by 1691, Next edit →
Line 100:		Line 100:

	I don't think it appropriate to include the statement "formed from the [[Lordship of Ireland]] in 1541 and brought" under English control by 1691, preferring the shorter phrase "already under English control by 1691." I do not see that the date of formation of the Kingdom of Ireland or how it was formed is relevant for this article any more than the date of the formation of the Kingdom of England or Kingdom of Scotland would be. I do not think this article would benefit from general details of the history of Scotland or England being added, and that goes for the history of Ireland as well: in my view, all that is relevant from those histories is what directly affects the United Kingdom. Cheers [[User:Fishiehelper2\|Fishiehelper2]] ([[User talk:Fishiehelper2\|talk]]) 10:15, 13 December 2008 (UTC)		I don't think it appropriate to include the statement "formed from the [[Lordship of Ireland]] in 1541 and brought" under English control by 1691, preferring the shorter phrase "already under English control by 1691." I do not see that the date of formation of the Kingdom of Ireland or how it was formed is relevant for this article any more than the date of the formation of the Kingdom of England or Kingdom of Scotland would be. I do not think this article would benefit from general details of the history of Scotland or England being added, and that goes for the history of Ireland as well: in my view, all that is relevant from those histories is what directly affects the United Kingdom. Cheers [[User:Fishiehelper2\|Fishiehelper2]] ([[User talk:Fishiehelper2\|talk]]) 10:15, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

			: I think readers need context. The danger is that the various unions were different. Scotland and England came together by mutual agreement. The Kingdom of Ireland had a very different history. By the time of the union of Ireland with England/Scotland it was in effect a decision of the English Parliament and was motivated in part (if not the main) following an early united Ireland move. Ireland itself has a temporary period as an independent Kingdom largely under English pressure. Its a complex history and the danger is that the impression is given of a gradual coming together of long standing political entities. --[[User:Snowded\|<font color="#801818" face="Papyrus">'''Snowded'''</font>]] <small>[[User talk:Snowded#top\|<font color="#708090" face="Baskerville">TALK</font>]]</small> 11:02, 13 December 2008 (UTC)