Talk:German Americans

Einstein wasn't German

Why is Albert Einstein on this page? This page is about Ethnic Germans. Albert Einstein was an Ethnic Jew. He's also on the Jewish American page of Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pietervhuis (talk • contribs) 16:46, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Dude, Jews is a religion. It's not a race. They have Jews that can look like they're from northern Europe like Gweneth Paltrow, Sarah Michelle Gellar, Alicia Silverstone, Olivia Newton-John, and William Shatner. They have Jews that can look like they're from southern Europe or the Middle East like Adrian Brody, Jerry Seinfeld, Meyer Lanksy, and Karl Marx. There's also Arab Jews and Persian Jews in the Middle East, Berber Jews from North Africa, Ethiopian Jews, Asian Indian Jews (who converted to Evangelical Christianisty during Imperial times), Jews from Mexico, Cuba, and Puerto Rico, and Bukharan Jews from the Turkic countries in Central Asia. (See Jewish ethnic divisions and Lost Tribes of Israel). If Albert Einstein was born and raised in Germany and his ancestors has been living in Germany for centuries or since Roman Imperial times then he's an ethnic German like Marlene Dietrich.--Pilot expert (talk) 14:58, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

The confusion here is between religion, ethnicity, and nationality. What the identifier "Jew" means in this category is often ambiguous, even amongst Jews themselves. If we asked Einstein during his life, his answer would certainly have change. What we know for sure is that he renounced his German identity long before emigrating to the US. However, he also accepted a chair in Berlin during the beginning of WW2. The most important thing to remember about German identity is that it existed long before the 19th century, and esp. before the Great War and WW2.

Einstein was of ethnic Jewish identity, German (then US) nationality, and of no verifiable religion. It is possible to be Jewish by ethnicity and not by religion, considering many ethnic Jews don't profess any and some have even adopted Christianity (Benjamin Disraeli, David Ricardo, etc.). Being Jewish is a unique overlap of religious and ethnic identity. There are far better candidates to exemplify ethnic Germans of US nationality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.102.241.133 (talk) 07:27, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

You may discuss if he was a German Jew or a Jewish German, but if you deny him the attribute German you go with Adolf. German means historically at the first place a German *speaker*, and in the last 20 Centuries a multitude of European ethnics mixed into this culture space. It's well known that Einstein's English was lousy and all of his Colaborators had to speak German with him. And if you want to go for the genetics, an investigation of the University College London showed recently that the european Jews are mainly descendants of oriental men and central european women. There is a reason why Ashkenazim means German and why Jiddish is another variety of German (Einstein didn't speak Jiddish, there even was a a kind of conflict between Orthodox, Zionist and Assimilated Jews in Germany)--84.59.209.236 (talk) 16:46, 6 November 2008 (UTC) Popolfi

Einstein was born in Ulm (today Baden-Wuertemberg), he had a German passport and was a German speaker. So why shouldnt he be counted as German American? You dont distinguish the English into Protestant-English-Americans and Catholic-English-Americans. Regligion doesnt play a role here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.57.11.46 (talk) 00:16, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, he was quite realistic about this stupid propaganda " ...today in Germany I am called a German man of science, and in England I am represented as a Swiss Jew. If I come to be represented as a bête noire, the descriptions will be reversed, and I shall become a Swiss Jew for the Germans and a German man of science for the English! (To The Times (London), November 28, 1919 ". However he was by culture and by language German. Americans might confuse the historical situation of the assimilated Jews in Germany with the socialy segregated Eastern European Jews. But Isrealis are well aware about the cultural difference, just compare Yekke . I recently saw a documetary showing that German Jews had a crucial influence in American society, bringing the concept of "Assimilated Jew" to the States. --84.59.221.219 (talk) 13:56, 15 November 2008 (UTC) popolfi

Einstein was not ethnically german therefore he is not a german-american. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.106.195.132 (talk) 21:26, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Who is ethnically German? Please give us a definition ... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.59.206.135 (talk) 10:46, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

German Americans are citizens of the United States of ethnic German ancestry (first line of the German American article). Someone born in Germany is a German. Einstein was born in Germany AND he was a Jew. That makes him a Ashkenazi Jew or a German Jew.

Einsteins Citizenship: Germany (1879–96, 1914–33) Switzerland (1901–55) United States (1940–55)

Einstein became a citizen of the United States in 1940 and remained there the rest of his life, although he retained his Swiss citizenship. That makes him an American with German ethnicity or a German American. He was a German American. Chase I (talk)

yes, the problem is our definition. "ethnic German" will not do, because experts have always considered all "cultural Germans" in the US to be German Americans. That is, the main criteria are language and culture, not religion. Rjensen (talk) 16:44, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

IMHO Einstein alone doesn't worth this discussion, but excluding Jewish Germans of this article would be considered extremely racist in today Germany! Most "German" immigrants to the US came before there was any so called "German" nation state (1871), so the definition must be by language and culture. Otherwise it's like saying Canadian and Mexican Aborigines are not American Indians, just because the US monopolized the term "American" after revolution.

Ashkenazi Jew is somehow misleading, because this is mainly a religious school in contrast to Sephardim and the majority of them lived in Eastern Europe, having a proper culture based on orthodox Judaism, Yiddish language and mostly living in homogeneous and isolated settlements like Shtetls. Saying this, I must admit that IMHO the Yiddish language (= "jidisch taitsch" = "Jüdisch-Deutsch") is intelligible with Standard German, fare more than Low German, Dutch or Swiss German idioms, just the culture is apart. (Anyway I wouldn't have a problem calling them "German", but I doubt they would appreciate this ;-)

But the so called "West Jews" like Einstein, Kurt Weill or Heinrich Heine were also Ashkenazim but assimilated into German culture (often even heavily patriotic, just compare the roles of Walther Rathenau or Fritz Haber in WWI or notorious Erhard Milch in WWII) ! Ironically even Theodor Herzl the inventor of Zionism, wanted German to become the language of Israel, no joke! (And the Israeli legal system was heavily influenced by Yekke lawers and judges) --Popolfi (talk) 20:33, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

WWII

The last paragraph in this section is confusing in its discussion about post-WWII immigrants. I think it's trying to say that the most recent immigrants from Germany have come because of professional work reasons, since Germany is no longer a place many people are trying to migrate from. It's confusing enough that I don't want to guess, however.

Also, that theory doesn't cover the post-war immigration of German ethnic refugees from Poland, Hungary, Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union who were expelled by nations who had suffered under Nazi invasion and occupation. Enough Danouswabians immigrated from Hungary in the post-war years, for instance, to create cultural centers in cities such as Trenton, NJ and others.--Parkwells (talk) 22:45, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

German American presidents

This section claims Eisenhower and Hoover were of "primarily German ancestry", but doesn't offer sources or much evidence for the claim. Eisenhower's mother's maiden name was Stover and she was born in VA to Elizabeth Link and Simon Stover, both of whose names may also be of English ancestry. His father's family immigrated to the US in the 18th c., so there were many opportunities through the generations for Eisenhauer/Eisenhower marriages to spouses of other than German backgrounds. My German ancestors in NY started marrying out in the 1820s.--Parkwells (talk) 22:05, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

The article on Herbert Hoover says that his mother was primarily of English and Irish descent. Both his parents died when Hoover was young and he grew up with a maternal uncle. --Parkwells (talk) 22:13, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

The Richard Nixon reference in the article is interesting. Milhaus sounds German, but I thought that Nixon claimed Irish ancestry through a Quaker called Milhous who lived in the north of Ireland in the eighteenth century. But that Mr Milhous could of course have been of German origin.

I put a piece in the Irish American discussion about the relative paucity of German American Presidents in the light of the large number of Presidents claiming Irish ancestry, and how this was surprising considering that there are more German Americans than Irish Americans. It was deleted.

1886 book on German Americans in the military

Came upon this while looking for something else, it's available on-line (choose the PDF version, the text version is a not-too-useful scan). The German soldier in the wars of the United States - by Rosengarten, J. G. (1835-1921), published 1886. Sorry to post to the article talk page rather than the correct place, but I'm new and still feeling my way around. Regards, 24.178.228.14 (talk) 17:16, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Reverting deletion of Albert Einstein and the word "jewish"

While reverting recent changes to delete Albert Einstein, a recently added photo of Paris Hilton was collateral. NOTE: Paris Hilton has German heritage, so she could go back.

Re the edit comment about "Ashkenazi Jew," note that "Ashkenaz is the Medieval Hebrew name for the region which later formed the country of Germany. Thus Ashkenazi Jews are literally 'German Jews.'"

This page has before needed protection. Hopefully that will not be necessary again. Proofreader77 (talk) 19:19, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Citations?

I'm looking at the article now, and it seems like the bottom of it (including the sources) was chopped off, and the citation links don't go anywhere. I wouldn't want to mess with anything, but if this was someone's mistake or an intentional change, where can I find the original version or can someone fix this one?

71.238.25.46 (talk) 14:27, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

It's been restored. Someone was making some edits (looks like in good faith) and ended up removing the refs and other info. Thanks for the heads-up. freshacconcispeaktome 15:59, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Population

Hi. I was just looking at this article because we've got a discussion going on over at Britons with Latin American ancestry about who counts as British (some editors are arguing that permanent residency in the UK is sufficient, which I disagree with, arguing instead that the person needs to be a citizen, or at least describe themself as British, but that's beside the point). Anyway, I wondered what the situation was on a more-developed article such as this, but there seems to be an inconsistency. In the introduction, it states "German Americans are citizens of the United States of ethnic German ancestry", but then the 50,764,352 population figure seems to include 271,583 people who are not American citizens. Cordless Larry (talk) 11:23, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Johnny Weissmüller

The most-known German American is Johnny Weissmüller, alias Tarzan. Therefore he should be included in the main box. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.3.74.229 (talk • contribs) 13:51, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Rockerfellers and Elvis Presley

Please don't include the Rockerfellers and Elvis Presley as German-Americans in the info box. Their families have been living in the Americas for centuries. It's too distant to count anymore to consider them ethnically "German" and their ancestors would have intermarried with other ethnic groups during that time. I think Elvis Presley's family mostly has Scottish and Cherokee ancestry. Their families has nothing to do with modern Germany anymore. In my opinion, the only people that should count as German Americans is if their families recently immigrated to the US (ie 1st, 2nd, or maybe 3rd generation German Americans) or they are German immigrants themselves like actress Kristen Dunst, Albert Einstein, President Eisenhower, Babe Ruth, Admiral Nimitz, General Pershing, actress Marlena Dietrich, General Franz Sigel, General Spaatz, actor Eric Braeden, and architect Ludwig Mies van der Rohe. --Pilot expert (talk) 18:53, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

They are still considered German Americans as long as they have German heritage. It doesn't matter how many generations they are seperated from a German ancestor or what percentage of that ancestry they have they are still German Americans. One's heritage, like their race, can't be choosen and can't lost. Chase I (talk)

Image copyright problem with Image:Kurt Vonnegut at CWRU.jpg

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Busch family/brewery

I removed the statement that the brewer "in the family still today", for two reasons. First, it has been a publicly traded corporation for decades. The Busches remained substantial stockholders, officers, board members of the corporation but this is not quite the same as a privately held company under family control. Second and perhaps more to the point, A-B has announced its intention to merge with another giant corporation. (See article on Anheuser Busch.) If the deal goes through, "in the family" will no longer be at all applicable. Publius3 (talk) 05:17, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Bruce Willis and Clark Gable

Bruce Willis and Clark Gable, despite their English American names (and paternal ancestries), are being labelled as German Americans because their mothers were German and German-Irish American respectively. In the absence of sources where they specifically identify themselves as German Americans, either they should be excluded, or they should be labelled as English and/or Irish Americans as well, to avoid obvious ethnic bias. 92.1.160.100 (talk) 16:42, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

List of German Americans

I would appreciate a quick show of hands at Talk:List of German Americans#Jews?, I don't want to revert the user a second time without a clearer consensus. Thanks, Amalthea 01:43, 10 December 2008 (UTC)