Talk:Platformer

Console Bias

The whole article is heavy biased toward consoles, with no mention of home computers such as ZX Spectrum, Amstard CPC or Commodore 64.

Super Mario Bros.

The caption on the second image states Super Mario Bros. is the best selling video game of all time. This seems likely to become potentially outdated, if not already. Perhaps 'as of (date)' should be added to prevent this? - AlKing464 04:40, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

::It's not likely to become obsolete any time soon. According to the 1999 Guiness Book of World Records it had sold more than 40 million copies on NES alone. That's more than GTA3, Vice City, San Andreas, and Halo 2 combined, and well over double the nearest runner up. I don't see it changing any time soon. Frogacuda 06:24, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Megaman

i don't feel as though the section on run and gun platform games works very well, for instance why is megaman not in it? i think it would be a far stretch to say that megaman games aren't linear and as far as the platform jumping criteria goes, the whole of the second stage of contra is nothing but platform jumping! i can understand where earthworm jim and vectorman are concerned, as the gameplay is not as linear in those games.

The short answer is because you wouldn't call Megaman a shooter. A run and gun is both a platformer and a shooter, and if it's one and not the other, then it isn't a run and gun. Frogacuda 17:04, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

How is Megaman not a shooter? and how can the article say there's backtracking in Megaman? the game is a straight run forwards shooting things game.How does multi-directional shooting make platformers more like shoot-em-ups? most shoot-em up have single directional shooting ie R-type and gradius.Also Contra has, as has already been said levels with a high emphasis on jumping (whole of the second level of the first game, much of the 3rd stage of alien wars. the section on run-and-gun games is nonsence and needs a more solid criteria section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jesus.arnold (talk • contribs) 21:07, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

The jumping parts of Contra are hard to miss. The platforms are huge. It's simplified in a sense. In any event, I wouldn't call Megaman a run and gun, nor have I seen it classified as such, but you do raise a good point that it might not be the best counterexample to use. I'll change it. Frogacuda 22:17, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

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You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Needs a lot more references before it's GA worthy M3tal H3ad 06:36, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Removed Chronology of significant platform games

This list has always been a bit of a sticking point. Now that the article is much more complete, the list is probably unneccessary, so I've removed it.

Copyedit(s)

Should probably have mentioned this earlier, but my main intent here is to tighten the prose as an FA candidate. Mostly, I'm going to be trying to remove unnecessary words, rephrase where I think a sentence might be unclear, and replace elements I think might be too casual in tone ("whiz through the levels," for instance). This process does sometimes make things sound choppier, so go ahead and continue passing over my own pass. ^_^ Shimeru 06:54, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, sometimes some subtleties get lost in editing. For things that I felt didn't quite work I've been trying to look at why you changed them and find something that addresses that as well as preserves what I was trying to communicate, rather than doing a straight revert. I appreciate another voice on the copy editing front. Hopefully it'll pass, but we haven't been getting alot of voices on the review :/ Frogacuda 05:23, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, I don't think it's quite ready yet. The prose still needs some work, which's why I've been trying to copyedit it. (Unfortunately, I have very little free time just now with which to do so, so I'm going at it a section at a time.) It could probably use a couple more citations too. I've elected not to support or oppose it until I've had a shot at improving it. There's a chance it could slip through the cracks, so to speak; the best thing for it would be to continue improving it and renominate it in a month or two, making sure any previous objections have been fully addressed. Shimeru 21:28, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Long tail

In what must count as a classic example of the long tail with respect to computer games...

This reference is poorly written and, I think, factually wrong. I would change it but what with the award and all,...jcp 12:19, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Nice Article

Just Finished reading it now, and it really is quite a good read. Hope it gets promoted to featured article status soon. The only problem I have is that it doesn't really mention the enormous influence that Banjo Kazooie has had on the genre in recent years; everything from Jak and Daxter, to Ratchet and Clank, and even Nintendo's own Mario Sunshine.--124.176.7.158 04:34, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I see Banjo as quite derivitive, really. Could you elaborate?67.85.176.130 01:31, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Banjo-Kazooie has been very influential to the genre for a number of reasons. In terms of style and graphics, Banjo-Kazooie has been a huge innovator: the rich characters, the dynamic music, the award winning graphics and art direction that were amazing for both the time and console. More importantly, the buddy system Banjo-Kazooie introduced has been extremely influential, like I said just look at Jak and Daxter, Ratchet and Clank, and even Mario Sunshine, they all make extensive use of it. Sure Banjo built on some of the ground work laid out by Mario 64, but the style, the buddy system, and many more features it introduced have been widely imitated.--58.168.249.12 02:54, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

The art direction is nothing short of atrocious, like everything Rare made since they starting using 3D models. This point is highly subjective, of course, but for that reason, I don't think it would be wise to include on the merits of artistic influence unless there are actual game creators that have acknowledged it as an influence.

Similarly, buddy systems have been around for decades in the genre, and I don't think anything in particular about it could be pinned on Banjo-Kazooie in particular. The Mario Sunshine analogy is an even greater stretch. I'm not even sure what you're referring to other than Mario having something on his back

Food for thought for those in denial on the plainly obvious Mario Sunshine analogy:

• Mario has a secondary character which rides around on his back. Just like Banjo Kazooie.
• The secondary character converses and plays an active part in the story. Just like Banjo Kazooie.
• The secondary character improves Mario's jumping ability. Just like Banjo Kazooie.
• The secondary character can improve Mario's speed. Just like Banjo Kazooie.
• The secondary character allows Mario to shoot projectiles. Just like Banjo Kazooie.
• The secondary character allows Mario to reach previously inaccessible areas. Just like Banjo Kazooie.
• The secondary character needs some abilities to be upgraded/found before they can be utilised. Just like Banjo Kazooie.
• The secondary character ... well, you should get the picture by now. 58.169.20.250 02:46, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Caling the FLUDD a character is a bit of a stretch. It's a utility with a computer in it. Isn't this pretty much the same as upgrading the suit in Antiriad or Metroid, or whatever? It wans't an original element to begin with. I can find you hundreds of sources that credit Super Mario as the first scrolling platform game, but does that mean it actually came out before Pac Land and Jump Bug, or does it just mean the author hasn't played that many games and is seeing simplistic relationships as cause and effect when they aren't?

How is it a stretch? Just because a character isn't human doesn't mean that it doesn't qualify as a character. By your logic I guess Clank from Ratchet and Clank isn't a character either! Oh yeah, if you can find me a metroid game where Samus' suit can talk and play an active part in the storyline, then I might take your comparison seriously! And another thing, it was CERTAINLY an original element in the 3D platform genre; banjo-kazooie was first to utilize a secondary character in this way. The FLUDD-mario/Banjo-Kazooie comparisons are pretty damn obvious, I'd hardly call it a simplistic relationship. You seem quite sure that the whole BJ buddy system is entirely derivative, so please provide evidence where the buddy system has be employed previously prior to BJ in this way (I haven't seen it, but I'm happy to be surprised). Even if it was though, something to point out is that relveance isn't entirely related to simply the old adage of 'who did it first' (which you seem to be fixated on). A game which popularizes such a style by reworking the original idea brilliantly is influential and relevant in its own right. 124.176.43.144 12:49, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Being the first 3D platformer to use a popular convention of 2D games is not significant. Neither is the fact that FLUDD or Kazooie can talk. Does it matter what the first 3D platformer to use a double jump is, for example? And would all later 3D platformers be indebted to that one, or is it just a logical extension of double jumps from 2D platformers? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.85.180.157 (talk) 03:26, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

There you are at it again! Talking up the derivative nature of the BJ buddy system (a secondary character paired on the back or in association with the primary character), yet still providing NO direct evidence, show some please! And even so, it does not take away the FACT that BJ popularized the use of this style, and that in itself is influential and relevant. 124.176.43.144 09:24, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

To popularize something, mustn't it indeed be popular? One or two other games is not significant. Also, why does it matter if the character is on his back or not? Why is that a relevant thing to latch onto that you think it really changed these games in some way? Who cares? I named other games with secondary helper characters. Who cares if they're not in a back pack? Why does that matter? Do I need to go into all the games that use magic shoes and hats now, too?

Please cite these games you speak of, and additionally, where the creators of BJ acknowledged that these were an inspiration. And by the way, it must matter if after Banjo Kazooie, other games started pairing a character directly with another! Debating whether or not it matters is irrespective of the point anyway. What matters is that BJ did it, others duplicated it after this point, and you haven't provided a shred of evidence to suggest that it was done previously. Also, BJ had two CHARACTERS directly paired together, NOT a character in possession of magic shoes or hats; trying to draw vague connections between them is pointless. 124.176.4.223 23:21, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Let's go with Earthworm Jim 2, and his sidekick Snott that he carried in his backpack and used to do certain moves. I don't know for a fact that it was a direct inspiration to BK, but since I'm not writing the BK wiki entry, I don't care. And in fact, I wouldn't care to mention that EWJ2 did this either, because it's an altogether unimportant point that has nothing to do with the development of the genre even if it hadn't been done before.

Now I expect you'll tell me that doesn't count because there isn't a hyphen in the title and Earthworm Jim doesn't have a yellow hat, but you're really not describing an evolution in the genre you're just trying to pick out one tiny thing that an extremely derivative, unoriginal Mario 64 clone did differently.67.85.180.157 05:05, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, like I said earlier I'm happy to be surprised, I never pretended to know everything about the platforming genre. However I'm not going to repeat myself ad nauseum on this issue anymore, as your circular logic is giving me headache. I'll instead direct you to the comments of Rob Haywood below. Also, You seem to be forgetting that the buddy-system is only ONE of the features that BJ did remarkably well (judging from the reviews, which maybe you should familiarize yourself with). 124.176.4.223 23:45, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

While I admit I'm not a fan of B-K, remember that there are dozens of very good Platform games, including many personal favorites of mine, that are not mentioned, but the article is already VERY long, and I'm trying to keep it to games that are significant in terms of the development of the genre and and the time they were released. It might be worthy of a passing mention along with other platformers that sold well, but I wouldn't spend time going into the details of its gameplay. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.85.180.157 (talk) 07:47, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Everyone has their own opinion, and while I do not agree with yours in relation to Banjo-Kazooie, I respect it. I tip my hat to you sir, this has been an interesting discussion. 124.187.204.91 10:51, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Remember, drawing vague connections between games is not the same thing as establishing a case for influence or historic connection. I even acknowledged at certain points in the article that certain games that did things first were probably not a direct influence on their successors (Alpha Waves and Jump Bug for example).

Got some evidence for any of those points fella? The only thing vague here is you. I seriously wonder if you've even played this game or read a single review/critique on it, as your opinions are way out of line with the general consensus.

I've played over 10,000 games on over 50 systems, including both Banjo N64 releases. If you want to write a review of Banjo, I reccomend GameFAQs.com. If you'd like to write an encyclopedia entry, you need to do your research, like I have. I've cited my sources in this wiki entry, and the claims are rock solid. IF you want to add to it, you need to be specific. There's nothing vague in this entry.

The mario sunshine analogy is not really that weak in my opinion, Mario carries around a secondary talking character on his back which gives him new abilities as well as adding to the story, also how have buddy systems been "around for decades" in the 3d platform game genre in 1998?

Precisely, I was talking about the 3D platform genre after all. Banjo-kazooie's take on the buddy system in the 3D platormer was not only critically acclaimed, it also sparked a wave imitators that continue to this day. If thats not what you'd call influential then I don't know what is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.176.23.171 (talk) 11:49, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

3D Platformers built on and borrowed from the 2D games on which they're based. And again, if you can find creators of later games crediting Banjo as an inspiration, then it IS relevant as influencial. However, if you can't find that, and the game in question didn't actually originate anything, I don't think the case is particularly strong. Banjo didn't do anything new, and no one has said they looked to it for inspiration, so it's kind of just baseless speculation. You could just as easily say Jak and Daxter is owed "Toejam and Earl" or something (and that would be wrong, too).Frogacuda 17:09, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I find your circular logic very confusing; your whole statement is one big contradiction. You seem quite happy to argue that Banjo-Kazooie is extremely derivative, even though the producers themselves have not acknowledged (to my knowledge) any of these previous forerunners you purport; something which you concede in your own words is needed to establish influence. And yet, you come in here all high-and-mighty and shut down any comparisons made to Banjo-Kazooie and the fairly obvious clones that came after it. And furthermore, relevence shouldn't just be centered around doing something new, it can also be about using a previous idea and reworking it brilliantly, which is something Banjo-Kazooie did in spades as well as being an innovator of the 3D platforming genre. And unlike you, I have a multitude of sources to back up my claims (not simply baseless rhetoric), just check out gamerankings.com for the scores of glowing reviews. Rob Haywood 02:29, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually he's quite clear on one important point that I often find easy to forget. What may be "obvious" to you is still considered Original Research unless you can cite sources. Frogacuda is simply asking for you to add some of these "multitude of sources" to the article. As long as you can cite other reliable resources for what you post on Wikipedia, go ahead and post it. If you can't find the resources to back you up, you're posting your own research, and that's highly undesired at Wikipedia. That's pretty much what it boils down to: Either post resources for your claims, or keep your thoughts to yourself. Dawynn (talk) 15:00, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

In my opinon Super Mario 64 introduced the free roaming style but other games such as Banjo kazooie Spyro the dragon Donkey kong 64 Sonic adventure Conkers bad fur days Jak and Daxter Ratchet and Clank and Crash twinsanity follow in it's foot steps —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.90.197.103 (talk) 18:56, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Super Mario 64 can be hop and bop.

1. REDIRECT [[

---

Insert text]]

You can jump on goombas to kill them. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sega31098 (talk • contribs) 04:15, August 20, 2007 (UTC).

There Only Being Two N64 2D Platform Games

"The Nintendo 64 had the fewest 2D platformers — only Yoshi's Story and Mischief Makers — and both met with a tepid response from critics at the time."

Would not the game "Mortal Kombat Mythologies: Subzero" be counted? KxWaal 02:53, 01 October 2007 (UTC)

That's generally considered to be a beat 'em up (or fighting game if you're in Europe. 68.45.100.233 17:49, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

About Kirby and the crystal shards —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.90.197.103 (talk) 18:52, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Needs source

Others found its relaxed pace soothing, but it remains one of the less popular games in the series. It featured difficult platform areas that were similar to the Bowser levels from Super Mario 64 with a focus on traditional platform jumping.

It seriously needs source. Although Super Mario Sunshine is not as popular as Super Mario 64, it's neither either as bad as Superman 64 nor "the less popular games of the series". there are Mario games 2 million times worse (look at Mario Teaches typing); or would you like to have SMS included in the list of the worst games ever?? 200.71.188.210 00:25, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I would argue that the mario "series" only includes the main platform games. The mario "franchise" and "universe." are much larger than that, but usually a series only includes games which could in some way be called sequels to the original.

Perhaps saying it's one of the "less popular platformers in the series" would be less ambiguous.Frogacuda 06:40, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Guess what? The above cited text is still uncorrected and with no references either, so if we don't find a source supporting it, I will have to delete it.--Twicemost (talk) 21:24, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

because no one answered, and in order to keep this article as GA, I am deleting that unverified --and uncorrected-- text. --Twicemost (talk) 14:44, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Hacker, Vandal, or Virus?

As I was reading the article, this caption caught my eye.

[[Super Nintendo he the game maker is pimp aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa<mat4568765Italic text[22]</math>

Does anyone know what that was all about? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.216.187.23 (talk) 22:21, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Q*Bert

Q*Bert -- Comical Action game? Isometric Platformer? How would you classify this classic arcade game? Dawynn (talk) 12:22, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Well Q*Bert is of a period in gaming before clear genre definitions existed, and this is an issue that comes up a lot during these kinds of articles. The definition of "platform game" has evolved somewhat over the years. It seems to have been used first in the UK game magazines, referring to games like Donkey Kong, Space Panic, and Lode Runner. However, by the time the term came to be widely used internationally and adopted by game creators, the meaning had morphed somewhat.

This article is written from a contemporary perspective, and thus concerns the genre as it is commonly defined today. Under most widely accepted definitions, including the one in this article, it is not a platform game at all. You move about on a grid, and you cannot control or aim your jumps. Thus, not a platformer. I would simply classify it under the broad umbrella of "Arcade".Frogacuda (talk) 23:27, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

I did a quick google test. It's a platform game. Even though it's a single screen game on an isometric perspective. Randomran (talk) 15:13, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, that would be why I posted on the Platform discussion page. And, as noted, both the "Comical Action" games and "Isometric" platformers are subgenres of platform. As noted on this page, "Comical Action" is not generally even thought of in this country. As noted -- this is a cateogry only spoken of in Japan and eastern countries. Personally, I was leaning against the isometric platform because that seemed more like something where the screen actualy panned. The "Comical Action" games do everything on non-panning screens, like Q*Bert -- I just hadn't seen any clarification as to whether Q*Bert would qualify. And websites that don't even consider "Comical Action" as a potential genre would not be good indications either for or against whether this particular game qualifies for this subgenre. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dawynn (talk • contribs) 01:15, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Honestly, it's a platformesque at best. Maybe there should be a little more acknowledgment of gray areas in classification, but I think that it would be counterproductive and confusing to discuss in the context of the genre as defined in this article.

Ok, I added a section on the ambiguities of early platform games Platform_game#Dispute_about_classification_of_early_platformers Frogacuda (talk) 00:18, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

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