Talk:Eleanor Roosevelt

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Pronunciation

Explaining his preference for the pronunciation IPA: [ˈɛlɪnɔː ˈɹoʊzəvɛlt] over /ˈɛlɪnɔr ˈroʊzəvɛlt/, Timeineurope says, “rhotic and non-rhotic varieties of English are equally standard - in making a choice between them, the deciding factor is that Roosevelt was a non-rhotic speaker.” I agree that rhotic and non-rhotic accents are equally valid. But he is wrong to say that we have to make a choice between them.

As explained at Phoneme#Notation, square bracket notation [ ] indicates a phonetic transcription (showing the details of pronunciation), whereas slash notation / / indicates a phonemic transcription (showing only significant differences). So the phonemic pronunciation /ɔr/ indicates the sound of or in “for” (however it is pronounced in a given dialect). In a rhotic dialect it might be realized as [ɔɹ]; in a non-rhotic dialect as [ɔː]. Similarly /oʊ/ indicates a “long o.” In American English it might be realized as [oʊ] or [o]; in standard British English as [əʊ].

The fact that Mrs. Roosevelt was a non-rhotic speaker does not affect the way that people pronounce her name. She may have pronounced her name as [ˈɛlɪnɔː ˈɹoʊzəvɛlt], but it is factually wrong to say that is the way to pronounce it. If the article gives a phonemic pronunciation, it is not necessary either to choose one pronunciation or to give multiple pronunciations. (For those who are not interested in IPA let me explain that in plain English: With the phonemic pronunciation that I prefer, the last syllable of “Eleanor” is pronounced like “nor” (however the reader pronounces “nor”). With the phonetic pronunciation that Timeineurope prefers, it is pronounced like “gnaw” (irrespective of how the reader pronounces “nor”).) --teb728 22:27, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Aren't the schwas in Eleanor and Roosevelt the same? kwami (talk) 04:22, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Once again, this dispute about pronunciation has flared up. It should be resolved here without repeated article reversions, please. JGHowes ^talk - 16:55, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I think the precise phonetic realization listed here should simply be a normal American realization of the sequence of phonemes she used, which would be rhotic. Discussing whether Eleanor Roosevelt's accent was rhotic or not is splitting hairs. Using people's own phonetic realizations of their names would be an unworkable standard.

An unrelated pronunciation point: Merriam-Webster's Tenth Collegiate indicates that a schwa in -velt was the Roosevelts' own pronunciation. (Preferring their pronunciation in this regard does not contradict my previous point; this change would relate to the phoneme.) When the -velt part is pronounced with a full 'e' sound, that syllable should carry secondary stress. I am mentioning this here because there is a warning to discuss changes to pronunciation before editing. 136.152.224.19 (talk) 06:49, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Lorena Hickok

Someone who watches this article and is familiar with the situation, might want to watchlist the Lorena Hickok article and confirm that the content there is proper. As well as List of LGBT couples. I figured this might not be correct since this there is no mention of this Hickok in this article. --Dual Freq (talk) 03:45, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

LGBT?

Are you sure she was part of the LGBT group. She was married to a man. Rio de oro (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 22:03, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

No, it seems to be pure speculation. While a lesbian friend was in love with her, there doesn't seem to be any strong evidence that she was a lesbian herself. This has been discussed above. --Nick Dowling (talk) 10:11, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Correspondence between Roosevelt and Hickok supports theories that Roosevelt may have at least been bisexual. References should be made to those letters because they do indicate a close and possibly intimate relationship existed between the two women. 02:35, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

The article states Eleanor Roosevelt wore a ring that Lorena Hickok gave her. Hickok's page states she was LGBT and that she lived on the Rooosevelt estate until her own death. If the lesbian attention repeatedly shown towards E. Roosevelt was unwanted and unreciprocated, she would not have accepted the ring, let alone worn it. Furthermore, Hickok would not have been allowed anywhere near the Roosevelt family or estate at all. Had the media and the public discovered a same-gender, extramarital affair of such a high-profile and high-status wife, it would have destroyed not only her reputation, but her husband's reputation and career as well - FDR would have been a laughing stock, and could not have continued his career. Its discovery, during the 1930s, would have brought great shame on the Roosevelt family. The fact that Hickok was so close to E. Roosevelt, with such high risks to their reputations, should the lesbianism have been discovered, proves that there was a reciprocal lesbian relationship that was very important to both women. How is that not considered sufficient proof that E. Roosevelt was lesbian or bisexual? She should be in at least one LGBT category. Werdnawerdna (talk) 10:24, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

None of this "evidence" is convincing. There is a passage in one of Eleanor's letters to Hickok which I'll paraphrase, which seems to refute any claims that she was a lesbian. Eleanor told Hickok in the letter that she did believe and value the fact that Hickok loved her. However, Eleanor continued, she herself had no such feelings as between women. She respected these feelings as legitimate, but they were foreign to her. To me, this passage shows Eleanor's rare compassion and understanding of others, as well as her honesty.

As for the frequently quoted line, in another letter, in which Eleanor says she wants to kiss Hickok--well, in those days, female friends were more soppy in general. (I don't know how else to put it.) It was common for women friends of all types and ages in that era to walk around hand in hand, or arm in arm, and to kiss. And finally, Eleanor's long, close and affectionate relationship with her burly male bodyguard Miller, extending to enjoying sports and private times together, suggests to me a discreet, quietly happy romance. Younggoldchip (talk) 21:53, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Roosevelt was very closely associated with lesbianism, however, she does not seem to have been one herself. In September 1899, her grandmother and aunt Bamie Cowles (Theodore Roosevelt's sister) sent her to the private, prestigious, all-girls Allenswood school in England, where the headmistress, Marie Souvestre, was a lesbian. This seemed to have little impact on the young Eleanor Roosevelt but her cousin, Corinne Alsop (nee' Robinson) could see something unusual in Souvestre's personal relationships. Her close lesbian friends from the 1930's even said that she was not a lesbian. Esther Lape, who survived Roosevelt by 19 years and stood to gain the most by saying she was a lesbian even stated that Roosevelt outright refused to engage in homosexual conduct. Her cousin, Alice Longworth, who had almost nothing good to say of Eleanor Roosevelt even vehemently denied the possibility of a lesbian relationship. Furthermore, James and Elliott Roosevelt, her sons who were not above saying or writing anything adverse of their mother did not believe she was a lesbian. Eleanor's granddaughter, Eleanor Seagraves stated that she believes her grandmother had a deep love for Hickok but was not in love with her nor engaged in a lesbian relationship. Someone in Roosevelt's inner circle would've easily noticed a relationship and homosexual relationships then stood out like a sore thumb because to be outed would've brought great shame, much more so then than today. In my opinion, Roosevelt seemed very sure of her sexual orientation and it was not homosexual. 15:48, 2 February 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.23.47.66 (talk)

Clarification Needed

There is a sentence which reads "[i]n November, 1903, they became engaged, although the engagement was not announced for more than a year, until December 1, 1904, at the insistence of FDR's mother, Sara Delano Roosevelt."

Sara Roosevelt's position is not clear.

Did she insist on the engagement being kept secret, or did she insist on its disclosure?

John Paul Parks (talk) 00:19, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

"Anti-Catholic"

I appreciate the cites, but I still feel there needs to be a specific quote or attribution that says of her that she was anti-Catholic in order for the "she's not anti-Catholic" quote to stay. Otherwise it's a pre-emptive defence and unbalanced. Surely Spellman said something? Slac speak up! 04:55, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

This is what I've found about ER's prejudices on Catholics:

Smith, Jean Edward FDR, p. 77, Random House, 2007 ISBN 978-1-4000-6121-1:

"Both he [FDR] and Eleanor shared the anti-Irish, anti-Catholic prejudices of their time and class.* ...

*ER's feelings never completely changed. 'Franklin was always surrounded by Catholics,' she told her friend Irine Sandifer in 1960. "They were determined to see that he was always surrounded.' Irine Reiterman Sandifer, Mrs. Roosevelt as We Knew Her 86 (Silver Spring, Md.: privately printed, 1975)."

Smith, p. 148 (also view on Jews):

"Despite her wide exposure, some prejudices died hard. Eleanor never felt completely comfortable with the Roman Catholic clergy and the Irish politicians with whom FDR consorted, and her tolerance for those of the Jewish faith grew slowly.* Eleanor was distressed in January 1918 when she was obliged to attend a gala given by the British Embassy to honor Bernard Baruch, then head of the War Industries Board. It would be 'mostly Jews,' she wrote her Sara, and 'I'd rather be hung than seen there.' Afterward she reported, 'The Jew party was apalling. I never wish to hear money, jewels, and sables menioned again.'

Several months later Eleanor was surprised when FDR brought the young Harvard professor and Washington consultant Felix Frankfurter home for lunch. She found Frankfurter unappealing. 'An interesting little man,' she wrote Sara, 'but very Jew.' Later she would refuse to read Maurice Low's interpretive biography of Woodrow Wilson because the author was 'such a loathsome little Jew.' Blanche Wiesen Cook, Eleanor's elegant biographer, noted, 'ER's caustic comments concerning Jews remained a routine part of her social observation for many years, diminishing as her friendship with Baruch and other Jews flourished.'

FDR did not have that problem..."

Vints (talk) 09:12, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

World War II: championing Americans of Japanese ancestry

I saw claims that ER advocated that those in Hawaii not be interned, among other things. With more documentation, this would be worth inclusion. Source: this documentary shown on PBS http://www.thefirstbattle.com/ DHR (talk) 06:07, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Languages

An amusing comment by Gore Vidal:

You know, she came to the White House speaking six or seven languages. Roosevelt couldn’t do restaurant French.[1]

However, the article only mentions her speaking French... GregorB (talk) 19:57, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, that goes to Vidal's reliability.THD3 (talk) 00:30, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Birthplace

Her birthplace as "New York City" is not certain. It needs a citation, I have a citation that she was not. Wjhonson (talk) 21:45, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

eleanor

wow good —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.31.154.29 (talk) 12:41, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Lucy Mercer

I find that some of the wording regarding the Franklin's affair with Lucy Mercer ("...the affair continued right up until Franklin's death") is misleading. It makes it seem that FDR saw Lucy on a regular basis, when in fact their contact stopped from 1918 until the 1930s. From then until Franklin's death, he saw her sporadically, although the frequency increased in the last year of his life. Also, I'm adding a citation request for Theodore Roosevelt's reaction to the affair. I'm fairly well read on the Roosevelts and have never come across information indicating TR knew.THD3 (talk) 00:13, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I recall reading one of Roosevelt's son's opinion that his father and Lucy Mercer could not possibly have had a physical affair after FDR became an invalid. "He was paralyzed from the waist down," as the son put it. Also, a reporter who frequently saw Roosevelt being transferred from car to wheel chair, etc. has said that he was completely helpless in these transfers. He was moved "like a sack of potatoes" by others. This suggests that although Roosevelt and Lucy Mercer continued as companions, their sexual affair was long over. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Younggoldchip (talk • contribs) 22:07, 2 February 2009 (UTC) Younggoldchip (talk) 22:17, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Last name / first name

Is there a reason Roosevelt is referred to (fairly consistently) as "Eleanor" throughout the article? Doesn't MOS say we should call her "Roosevelt"? -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 00:50, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Fixed, except in some paragraphs where it was necessary to call all the family members by first name, as suggested in Mos:Bio. Some other people were also improperly referred to (by first name or initials) and I've fixed that as well. One question: an advisor or relative named Corinne is referred to in the section on Franklin's affair, but no last name is given. Does anyone know her surname? Ariadne55 (talk) 02:53, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

That must be Corinne Roosevelt Robinson - she's referred to earlier in the article as "Corinne Robinson". Thanks for fixing those :) -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 05:50, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the name and wikilink :-) I've added them. Ariadne55 (talk) 06:44, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Health and age

A section on Roosevelt's health should be added. For a woman of great energy, she must've overcome many health maladies during her life. She apparently was self-disciplined to have had such weak health as indicated by her short life of only seventy-eight years. 02:38, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

'Short' life?! Her lifespan was much longer than average for the time, even for a rich person. Look at life expectancy statistics over time. Note that lives were then, on average, far shorter than they are today. Werdnawerdna (talk) 09:54, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Not necessarily. Her aunt Corinne Robinson died in 1933 at age 71, and her aunt Anna Cowles was 76 when she died in 1931. Theodore Roosevelt's wife was 87 in 1948 at her death. So the ages stayed fairly consistent over thirty years. Even her cousins, Corinne Alsop (died aged 84), Ethel Derby (died aged 86) and Alice Longworth (died aged 96) had longer, far longer lifespans than Roosevelt. Also, her maternal grandmother who died in 1919 lived to be 76 years old. I can't help but believe that 78 years is not that long of a life to live. 13:15, 1 November 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.237.77.153 (talk)

Punctuation

Not going to bother signing in for this one because it's a minor point. I cannot even read this article because the punctuation is AWFUL. FYI, periods and commas go INSIDE quotation mards. Elipses are three periods "..." not as long as you want them "........" 198.135.224.110 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 21:27, 14 November 2008 (UTC).

How are you going to complain about punctuation when your diction is off? I suspect that when you wrote "mards," I believe you were trying to say "marks." The authors of the article are just as careless as you are. This is a "No Stone Throwing Zone."

FDR's choice of a wife

FDR probably should've chosen Alice Roosevelt as his wife instead of Eleanor Roosevelt. She was prettier than Eleanor Roosevelt, lived much longer (this would have put her near the top of the list for longevity of First Ladies), unlike ER's lack of longevity and was a more outgoing person than ER. 02:30, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Please reserve the Talk page for discussions about the articles content, not comments about the subject(s) of the article. But since we're on the subject, FDR came to detest Alice. At one point, he told Eleanor "I don't want to see that woman ever again."THD3 (talk) 11:08, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

He only came to detest Alice Longworth after she stated she would rather vote for Hitler rather than vote for FDR for a third term. Had they been married, the relationship would've been much different. 01:47, 10 March 2009 (UTC)