Talk:Cold fusion

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This notice was posted by Tznkai (talk) 22:07, 15 December 2008 (UTC) on behalf of the Arbitration Committee.

Invention Reaction

The title of this section is a bit of a play on words, because of the previous section, and because of what I actually want to talk about here, which is in the second-to-last paragraph of the "Reaction to the Announcement" section of the article. This particular sentence seems to me to have a one-word flaw in it (stressed): Nuclear fusion of the type postulated would be inconsistent with current understanding and would require the invention of an entirely new nuclear process.

The flaw that I perceive has to do with the fact that if CF is happening, then the way it happens is a Natural thing, not something that Man actually causes, and therefore not an "invention". Properly, all we can do is figure out or discover the details of a Natural event. I remind you that even though we discovered nuclear fission and thought ourselves mighty clever to build reactors that used that discovery, Nature was first: Natural nuclear fission reactor. So I submit that the word "invention" should be replaced with "discovery", in that sentence. V (talk) 04:59, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

I assume that the intent of the sentence is to say that it would require the invention of a new theory describing this as of yet misunderstood nuclear process. I agree that some wordsmithing is in order. (For what that's worth.) --GoRight (talk) 05:48, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

I see there haven't been any other comments for a while about this. Taking into account what GoRight wrote, I propose this version of the questioned sentence: Nuclear fusion of the type postulated would be inconsistent with current understanding and, if verified, would require theory to be extended in an unexpected way. I'm choosing this phrasing because it is exactly descriptive of what happened when muon-catalysed fusion was discovered/verified. Also, it seems to me a bit rash to assume that "an entirely new nuclear process" is required to explain Cold Fusion, simply because we do not know. While I understand that at least one such has been proposed (involving a Bose-Einstein Condensate of deuterium inside palladium), in one sense even that is still an extension of existing knowledge (merely extended to encompass nuclear events) --and other proposals (such as electron catalyzed fusion) are indeed merely quite straightforward extenstions of existing knowledge. If someone could point out a CF hypothesis that is not some sort of extension of some branch of existing knowledge, I'd like to know! V (talk) 13:35, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, I've applied the change to the article. V (talk) 14:27, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Defining the low temperature fusion reaction as a discovery instead of an invention is both biased and paradoxical. The paradox is that if this is a natural process, then cold fusion is a reality. The bias is to define this as a natural process so as to diminish the achievement and deny the invention. There is no requirement in patent law to define or describe the theory. The only requirement is to show best practice to cause the reaction, for example the reactants, concentrations, temperatures, choice of catalyst, etc. A proper analog in conventional catalytic chemistry is Ziegler-Natta production of polyethylene using TiCl4 as a catalyst. [1]. Even though the mechanism is not well understood, it is an invention and a Nobel Prize was won.

IT is not at all obvious from any example in nature how to effect cold-fusion. The fact that so many could not reproduce the results early on is a testament to the fact. However, competent experimentalist did reproduce the results. Examining the literature, there were 90 reproduction from individual scientists in 1989, and the number are in the thousands now. The references are just to many to name.

On the other hand, hot fusion is not an invention, since high temperature fusion attempts to mimic the sun. Also, a theory is not an invention and can not be patented.Minofd (talk) 00:51, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Ref Consolidation

The references section has grown out of control, and it's nearly impossible to manage. I'm trying to consolidate the references - as of yet, I've only taken nearly sequential or nearly identical refs and compressed them (losing page numbers and the like). As a longer-term project, I'd like to discuss splitting refs - specifically, we have refs like 5, which reads "Browne 1989,Close 1992, Huizenga 1993,Taubes 1993" This could instead be split into 4 different refs, which would mean the body text would say "something"[5][6][7][8], with 5 being Browne, 6 being Close and so on. The advantage to this is that we would shrink the references count substantially (there's real overlap). The disadvantage is that the text would have a lot more references, and often the same number over and over. I find the second way easier to follow. Others? Hipocrite (talk) 18:25, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

PS: If you prefer the old refs to the versions I have changed, please revert me - I won't touch them again. Hipocrite (talk) 18:50, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Apologies. I would rather they were separated out, and lower quality refs could be dropped or commented for over-referenced statements, such as Hipocrite suggests. Verbal chat 18:50, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

As soon as you don't remove the page numbers from book refs.... it's not fun trying to find a fact buried in a 400 page book without a page number. If I use the same book for page 212 and for page 438 then they should be kept as separate refs somehow. For the DOE paragraph here we could use this technique that I saw at one article:

Blah blah blah blah blah.^{[7](page 115)} Blah blah.^{[7](page 212)} Blah blah blah blah blah.^{[7](page 438)[8]}

As a compromise between cleanliness and usability. --Enric Naval (talk) 04:21, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Can do. Hipocrite (talk) 12:30, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

How about pp. rather than page? Less intrusive and more common in real life. Verbal chat 12:45, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Trivia question: Why is "pp" such a common abbreviation when "pg" is also common, and makes more sense? V (talk) 13:08, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I googled pp, pg, and page, and found a page saying that "p." is for a single page, while "pp." is for multiple pages. "pg." would then just be a clearer alternative to "p.". (and i suppose its plural equivalent would be "pgs."?) Kevin Baas^talk 15:32, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I've always seen "p." and "pp." in English. In Spanish it's always "pg." and "pgs.".

I assumed Wikipedia's MOS would specify usage for that, but to my surprise there doesn't seem to be any guidance for style in reference sections. At any rate, in the style manuals I'm familiar with, the standard usage is "p." and "pp." Woonpton (talk) 16:25, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I went ahead and made the change. --Enric Naval (talk) 16:18, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

It's from the Latin paginae (pagina (n.) The surface of a leaf or of a flattened thallus.), p. singular, pp. plural. So know we know! Verbal chat 16:31, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Logically, therefore, "pg" should be used in the article, since most of the page references will be to a single page (even if it is only the first of several). That is, "pg 108" vs "pp 108-112" --if the overall idea is to save some space, then "pg" it must be. V (talk) 17:37, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Or p. or pp., as appropriate. I'd prefer this, but it's not a big deal.Verbal chat 17:43, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I basically agree; not a big deal (esp. if goal is to abbreviate stuff; "p" is better than "pg"). On another hand, the above research reveals that "p" and "pp" are Latin, and this is not the Latin-language version of Wikipedia, heh! (just kidding around. I vote we use "p" exclusively, and never worry about how many pages a particular reference may involve; just specify the first of the bunch. That is, "p 108" and never "pp 108-112" ) V (talk) 13:29, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

"p" and "pp" are pretty much standard, as is defining the range of pages being used. Given that the citation templates take care of this, (as per LeadSongDog) I don't see why we should use just "p". It isn't significantly more difficult to use the standard approach, and there's no pressing reason to do otherwise. - Bilby (talk) 13:39, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

The cite and citation templates all generate the form: William Shakespeare, Compleate Workes, pp. 1012–13, 1015 which complies with WP:MOS.LeadSongDog come howl 18:51, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I used the {{rp}} template, as suggest in my talk page. --Enric Naval (talk) 04:54, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

need help with sources

Can someone with a subscription to these magazines open them and send me a copy of the text by email? (I'm trying to get better sources for the patent section in the article, and I would like to use these) Nature[2] Science[3][4][5]. --Enric Naval (talk) 23:09, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Done, although I couldn't access one Science article, as it was outside of the database's range. - Bilby (talk) 01:20, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Thank you very much :) --Enric Naval (talk) 07:55, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Another one, this time a Simon article from Social studies of Science [6], it talks about europan patents, and appears to give a world-wide view. Someone with a subscription to JSTOR can send me the full text by private email? --Enric Naval (talk) 21:38, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Never mind, I just noticed that I can read from my university :) --Enric Naval (talk) 17:26, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

SPAWAR neutrons but not charged particles?

Why does this article discuss SPAWAR's detection of neutrons but not their detection of charged particles? Szpak S, Mosier-Boss PA, Gordon FE (2007) Further evidence of nuclear reactions in the Pd–D lattice: emission of charged particles. Naturwissenschaften 94:511–514 ?

I found its erratum amusing: [7] Navy Physics Geek (talk) 04:09, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Because, unlike the neutron detection, the charged particle detection wasn't reported by lots of mainstream new news sources including popular science magazines, and didn't appear in an ACS press release. --Enric Naval (talk) 04:41, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Are you referring to mainstream "new" sources or mainstream "news" sources? I was under the impression that peer reviewed literature was considered more reliable than news stories or press releases. If that is not the case, please let me know where it's documented. Navy Physics Geek (talk) 10:20, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant "news". You should know that one paper in a journal is nice, but it's not nice if there is no reply from other scientists, and if other sources say that the field is fringe. The reason is that, like the neutron detection paper, this is a primary source, and we can't really know what impact it has had in the field until it get replies or it starts being cited, or some scientific magazine comments on its impact. --Enric Naval (talk) 18:19, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

The SPAWAR charged particle detection paper is discussed in Kalman P, Keszthelyi T, Kis D (Dec. 2008) "Solid state modified nuclear processes" EUROPEAN PHYSICAL JOURNAL-APPLIED PHYSICS, vol. 44(3) pp. 297-302. This is the abstract:

It is theoretically shown that an attractive effective potential is generated via optical phonon exchange between two quasi-free, different particles in deuterated Pd which, in turn, enhances the probability of their nuclear fusion reaction. Mechanisms that may be responsible for extra heat production and nuclear isomer formation are also discussed. Creation of 4 He pairs due to the significantly increased probability of the p + Li-7 -> 2(4)He + 17.35 MeV and d + Li-6 -> 2 4 He + 22.37 MeV nuclear reactions is predicted. Some of the basic questions of fusion reactions in solids seem to be successfully explained.

The theory paper cited in SPAWAR's erratum (Widom A, Larsen L (Apr. 2006) "Ultra low momentum neutron catalyzed nuclear reactions on metallic hydride surfaces" EUROPEAN PHYSICAL JOURNAL C, vol. 46(1) pp. 107-111) is cited in Hagelstein PL, Chaudhary IU (2008) "Electron mass shift in nonthermal systems" JOURNAL OF PHYSICS B-ATOMIC MOLECULAR AND OPTICAL PHYSICS, vol. 41(12) and the April 10, 2008 Current Science by Krivit. Navy Physics Geek (talk) 22:03, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Hum, can someone familiar with these journals comment on this? --Enric Naval (talk) 22:05, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Please note that the term 'ultra-low momentum' is applied to the neutrons postulated by Widom and Larsen (W-L). This means they are extremely reactive, very very high cross section for reaction in the solid state. That means that essentially none will escape at all, and this fact is noted in the W-L article cited above. That means that the 'neutrons' supposedly observed by the SPAWAR group _disprove_ the W-L theory. Further, the W-L theory does not say anything specific about charged particle generation, it predicts transmutations in the solid state which may lead to tritium and He formation in some cases. However, they point out they are not excluding anything by making that prediction. In other words if someone can come up with a nuclear decay chain initiated by a neutron capture event that would emit charged particles, they would love it. Kirk shanahan (talk) 17:26, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

I would like to see the source allegedly claiming that SPAWAR results disprove Widom-Larsen theory. The SPAWAR group is clearly under the impression that W-L is the most congruent theory to their experiments. There are still transitions which are not yet clear, but those exist in standard physics as well, which is why we are always building bigger accelerators, so that we can fill in those blanks.

And the stated criteria that all three of the works in question (neutron detection, charged particle detection, and congruent theory) have been discussed in other peer-reviewed literature has been met for half a year now. I should point out that EUROPEAN PHYSICAL JOURNAL C and JOURNAL OF PHYSICS B are two of the most reputable physics journals. Navy Physics Geek (talk) 05:09, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

So NPG, let me understand this. Theroists X propose Theory Y which states that the occurrence of Z is a "rare event", i.e. has a nearly zero probability of occurring. Then Researchers A report that Z was observed multiple times and in strength enough that a "5% of Z" observation is used to prove Z has occurred. Of course, both X's and A's results are published in peer reviewed journals. So just to summarize: X says Y proves Z doesn't happen, buy A says they have proof Z occurs easily and with significant strength. Then I say that A's results disprove Y, and you need someone else to tell you it is true? I think we are looking at a case of 'pathological skepticism'. I seem to run into that a lot whenever I point out the internal inconsitencies of the cold fusioneers position. I'm not going to argue basic logic with you NPG. Kirk shanahan (talk) 19:07, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't see the figures "nearly zero" or 5% being used. The theory was selected to match empirical results. Do you think that the SPAWAR claim that charged particles come from the same source of neutrons should be included in the article? Navy Physics Geek (talk) 07:19, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

arbcom case on banning from this page

See Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#William_M._Connolley_.282nd.29 --Enric Naval (talk) 22:04, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

I believe this is the case which has been renamed to Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Abd-William M. Connolley. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 00:46, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

New article

Dated July 15 in "New Scientist" http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20327171.100-interview-fusion-in-a-cold-climate.html V (talk) 00:40, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

patents in Europe and Japan

See one granted to Canon in Japan, and one granted to University of Utah[8] (description says clearly "cold fusion", not sure if it has been granted, Britz's patent list should give some clues on this). This last one also reported in CF newsletter[9] saying that Toyota tried to adquire it. --Enric Naval (talk) 01:07, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

A Uranium-Platinum Key to CF?

The August 2009 issue of Scientific American has a very interesting article in it on superconductivity. I haven't looked yet to see if the article is on-line; I'm looking at a paper copy as I write this. The title of the article is "An Iron Key to High-Temperature Superconductivity?"; it starts on page 62. On page 66 is a small "side-bar" titled "Material Progress", with the blurb "In the 98-year history of superconductivity, researchers have discovered a diverse assortment of materials that superconduct." Then there is a list of dates and types of materials, the first being elemental mercury in 1911. The most interesting one, because of possible relevance to Cold Fusion, is this:

1979 Heavy fermions -- Heavy-fermion superconductors such as uranium-platinum (UPt3) are remarkable by also having electrons that effectively (my emphasis) have hundreds of times their usual mass. Conventional theory cannot explain these materials' superconductivity.

Well, now! I never heard about THAT before! The superconductivity article in Wikipedia doesn't mention it (of course, 1979 was before the Internet). I'd most certainly like to know more about the circumstances in which electrons can "effectively" have hundreds of times their usual mass, and I don't care a whit about the superconducting aspects of the phenomenon (at this time!). Obviously if muons of 206 electron-masses can catalyze fusion, then so can electrons that "effectively" have hundreds of times their usual mass. In fact, an electron only need to "effectively" have about 50 times its usual mass, to be able to do it. YES, I'm fully aware that this is 100% pure O.R. and cannot go in the CF article at this time. That doesn't mean the editors here shouldn't be aware of it. And, of course, others will see the Scientific American article, and some of those may make this logical connection between HFSC and CF, too, and then it will get published.... V (talk) 13:34, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

A Google search brings up a lot of references to heavy fermion superconductivity. Here's the first result: http://yclept.ucdavis.edu/course/242/HanOh_242.pdf The basic heavy-fermion phenomenon in those heavy elements seems to be this: "These are metallic materials with very large electronic effective mass, 100 or more times larger than the bare electron mass, arising from an antiferromagnetic interaction between conduction electrons and the local magnetic moments (Kondo effect) residing on a sub-lattice of atoms in the metal." Hmmmm....hydrogen with its lone proton has a magnetic moment, and a sub-lattice of bare hydrogen nuclei will be interacting with conduction-band electrons in palladium....  :) V (talk) 14:17, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Upon further study, it appears that the Kondo Effect, the cause of this unusual behavior of electrons, "only" operates at very low temperatures, within a few degrees of Absolute Zero. Are there any exceptions? Note there are speculations that metallic hydrogen would be a high-temperature superconductor. The article on metallic hydrogen indicates that an alloy such as highly compressed silane (SiH4, 80% hydrogen), can be a superconductor. Palladium normally does not become a superconductor, but when saturated to levels associated with cold fusion (perhaps 45% hydrogen), hmmmmmm.... V (talk) 17:12, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

To-do list

The first item on the to-do list is, "Expand the Cold Fusion Research section to describe all types of experiments that reliable sources claim demonstrate cold fusion." But there is no "Cold Fusion Research section" so I propose the following:

1. Szpak S, Mosier-Boss PA, Gordon FE (2007) "Further evidence of nuclear reactions in the Pd–D lattice: emission of charged particles", Naturwissenschaften, vol. 94 pp. 511–514. should go in "Further developments" and "Reports of nuclear products in association with excess heat"
2. Widom A, Larsen L (Apr. 2006) "Ultra low momentum neutron catalyzed nuclear reactions on metallic hydride surfaces" European Physical Journal C, vol. 46(1) pp. 107–111. should go in "Further developments" and "Proposed explanations"
3. Kalman P, Keszthelyi T, Kis D (Dec. 2008) "Solid state modified nuclear processes" European Physical Journal – Applied Physics, vol. 44(3) pp. 297–302. should go in "Further Developments" and "Proposed explanations"
4. Hagelstein PL, Chaudhary IU (2008) "Electron mass shift in nonthermal systems" Journal of Physics B -- Atomic, Molecular, and Optical Physics, vol. 41(12) should go in "Proposed explanations"
5. Krivit, SB (Apr. 10, 2008) "Low energy nuclear reaction research – Global scenario" Current Science pp. 854–857. should go in "Further developments"
6. "Non-nuclear explanations for excess heat" should be moved from "Experimental details" to "Proposed explanations" Navy Physics Geek (talk) 17:39, 2 August 2009 (UTC)