Talk:Albania

Transport, Railway

I suggest that the Railway subsection be edited to remove information about the construction of highways in Albania. Most of the information is already in the Highways subsection, and the author's enthusiasm for new highway construction seems to compromise his/her objectivity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.239.197.44 (talk) 17:59, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Recent edits on Religion

We've been over this controversial topic about religion before and we've reached a stable version of it. I see some recent edits trying to push a POV.

The CIA Factbook reference https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/al.html gives the following figures:

• Muslim 70%, Albanian Orthodox 20%, Roman Catholic 10%
• note: percentages are estimates; there are no available current statistics on religious affiliation; all mosques and churches were closed in 1967 and religious observances prohibited; in November 1990, Albania began allowing private religious practice

So even the Factbook states that there are no available current statistics on religious affiliation, those informations are probably from 1967. Thank you.kedadial 16:21, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

The International Religious Freedom Report 2007 of the u.s department of state is clear on the recent religious groups in albania, so there is no need for the wrong information someone used to put it here without giving any refrence on it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eb500 (talk • contribs) 21:15, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

The statistics of 70-30 (70% muslims and 30% christians) come from the very distant year 1929. That was 80 years ago, but unfortunately the last one when a religious census was taken. Now the situation is completely different in Albania as a result of a great number of conversions to Christianity. Sampling results have put the number close to 40-60 (40% muslims and 60% christians). sulmues--Sulmues 17:53, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Demographics section

The sources in the demographics section clearly say "Most Western sources put the Greek population at 200,000." 200,000 out of 3 million is ~6%, not 2%. --Athenean (talk) 18:59, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

You are saying in the article:

"Most Western sources put the Greek population at 200,000..."

then you back it up with a source which says:

"but most Western estimates are around the 200,000 ...".

Anyway, I replaced it with a neutral Western source, the CIA Factbook, which says 3% of the population. Thank you.kedadial 19:35, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

The two source you removed are also neutral Western sources, and also far more specialized and reliable than the CIA world factbook. --Athenean (talk) 19:39, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

The CIA Factbook is reliable, but it's a tertiary source. It's not clear as to where the Factbook is getting its information, therefore it is best to cite secondary sources, such as the references from Athenean's version, for this information. Nishkid64 _{(Make articles, not wikidrama)} 02:36, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't know if you have checked the sources that were there, I'll repeat what I've said before.

This was written on the article of Albania:

"Most Western sources put the Greek population at 200,000 ..."

While the book that was used as a source was saying:

"but most Western estimates are around the 200,000 ...".

You see what I mean. The article was alleging what the book is alleging. I think that we need a real reliable source on this controversial topic.

"The CIA Factbook is reliable, but it's a tertiary source. It's not clear as to where the Factbook is getting its information ...".

Then, is it clear where does that book get it's information, where it says that most Western estimates are around the 200,000?

Thank you kedadial 03:20, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

No, I'm afraid I don't see what you mean. If the book says ""but most Western estimates are around 200,000 ...", then what is wrong with saying that in the article? If source X says Y, then we can include Y in the article. It's called "sourcing". This is how wikipedia works. So your claim that "The article was alleging what the book is alleging." is mystifying. The book is a perfectly reliable, secondary source that specializes on the subject at hand. The CIA factbook is a tertiary source that should not be used when reliable secondary sources are available, per WP:PSTS. --Athenean (talk) 03:45, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Also, the second source (Pettifer) The Greeks: the land and people since the war., which you also removed and are pretending does not exist says quite clearly: "200,000 Greeks live in Albania". Another neutral, reliable, secondary Western source that specializes on the subject. I don't see how it could be more clear than that. --Athenean (talk) 03:49, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

This source is telling us that there are 1.7% of Greek minority in Albania. AnnaFabiano (talk) 15:27, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

If you continue to page 69, you will see that it says "Most western estimates are 200,000". --Athenean (talk) 17:46, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Maybe the most fair is to put two or three estimates with sources. Since there is no official data about minorities. Would you agree? AnnaFabiano (talk) 21:55, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I think that is a good proposal. If you look at this version [1], that's exactly what you seem to have in mind. One sentence about the size of the minority being contentious (which it is). One sentence about the minimalist (Albanian) and maximalist (Greek) estimates, and finally, one sentence about what most western sources say. The version I am referring to was stable for a good while, and seems to be in line with what you are proposing. Would you be fine with restoring it? --Athenean (talk) 02:59, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

I would say that is fair enough, although, it is only fair if we put the correct CIA percentage as it is displayed there, together with western estimates (200,000). Kedad, what do you say? AnnaFabiano (talk) 13:47, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

I have this independent source about Greek minority in Albania. It says that there are about 117.000 Greeks living in Albania. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AnnaFabiano (talk • contribs) 13:57, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Says that Albania's population is 33 million. I don't think we should put too much faith in it. --Athenean (talk) 05:51, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Unclear map

The map appearing next to the religion statistics is unclear. What does the red, green and yellow mean? I can make a guess for the red, but the yellow and green I would have no clue. Kind regards.Calaka (talk) 14:15, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Fixed kedadial 14:54, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

The map is based on the 1989 tottalitarian census, which is questioned and possibly biased. Green for Greeks, Yelow for Slavic/Macedonias (sometimes called Bulgarians).Alexikoua (talk) 14:49, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Maybe it should be noted that it is a 1989 census. AnnaFabiano (talk) 14:53, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

It was totalitarian but we do not need to rub that on everyones face all the time. When people read the rest of the text they will understand that it was totalitarian. AnnaFabiano (talk) 17:35, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Agree. Since the demographics section does not mentions that, it shouldn't be repeated. Actually this is exactly what makes this census of questioned quality, and shouldn't be avoided. Otherwise the map should be removed, this article is already overloaded.Alexikoua (talk) 19:59, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I think that there is too little information about minorities in both Albania and Greece articles. So, any map, of any sort (this one is historical - you cannot delete a part of history just because it does not suit you - it could be propagandistic, but still it is part of history and it is the only one that we have for the moment) that shows a whole or a part of the puzzle concerning minorities in Albania (and Greece) is welcome. If you want to contribute, make another one with information from foreign organisations, or something similar. AnnaFabiano (talk) 11:34, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Things are simple, if it is a propaganistic census it should be noted. Imagine in the same way uploading data sourced from the North Korean government, and in the same way carefully avoiding and label them 'biased', 'tottalitarian' or at least 'questioned'. Wiki is a free encyclopedia and according to its policy there is no way such kind of information to be presented in an amateur way.Alexikoua (talk) 16:15, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Fine. How would you say if we would put in brackets at the end of the caption: (before the fall of communism)? AnnaFabiano (talk) 16:50, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Sure, would be ok. Alexikoua (talk) 19:03, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Religious Data

Falcon8765, yes there is lack of religious data from Albania however you are manipulating the data from a specified and trusted source (The statiscs given here are the result of a survey conducted by Albanian WB Data and Statistics, New York University of Tirana and Mother Theresa University of Tirana) by adding data from an informal, 79 year old census that arbitrarily assigned Albanians to religious sects (70% muslim, 20% orthodox christian, 10% catholic), based on old ottoman arbitrary data, which was based on the Albanian populated territories of the ottoman empire including modern day Albania, Kosovo and the valley of Presevo, Chameria, Western Macedonia and part of Montenegro, which in 1930 where not part of the Albanian state. I don't know what your reason is for adding the range (9.43%-70% muslim), but I don't think that lack of religious data is a good enough reason to manipulate the results of a separate survey and rely on outdated, informal, far from accurate data from Ottoman times. The results of the survey accurately portray the current religious picture of Albania.--I Pakapshem (talk) 23:29, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

WHAT IS THIS INSISTENCE WITH MANIPULATING THE DATA OF THE SURVEY, WHICH CLEARLY PUTS ALBANIAN MUSLIMS AT 9.43% AND NOT IN RANGE OF 9.43% TO 70%?! TO ALL EDITORS WHO KEEP DOING THIS: THE 70% STATISTIC IS TOTALLY UND UTTERLY WRONG AND OUTDATED!!! IT'S FROM A PSEUDO-CENSUS CONDUCTED IN 1930 ON RELIGION! IT'S ALMOST 80 YEARS OLD!!!!! YOU THINK THAT'S RELEVANT?! ESPECIALLY WITH THE SYSTEMATIC DERELIGONIZATION THE COUNTRY HAS GONE THROUGH WITH THE REPUBLICAN, MONARCHIC AND COMMUNIST SYSTEMS! IT DOESN'T MATTER IF IT'S FROM THE STATE DEPARTMET, IT'S SIMPLY AND UTTERLY WRONG AND OUDATED!--I Pakapshem (talk) 20:47, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

The survey says the percentage is 9%, while the US Department of State gives a figure of 70%. From what I understand, there is no certain figure for the Muslim percentage in Albania so both figures should be left there. Just because you disagree with the statistic doesn't mean that we should disregard it. And take it easy with the caps lock button. --Local hero ^talk 21:01, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Where does the state department get that figure? Does the state department hold a census on religion in Albania? Have you read other information about religious activity in Albania from other American government agencies? Well let me tell you: The state department uses the same 80 year old pseudo census, which I have explained in detail above, that all other misled westerns use. And it doesn't matter wether I disagree or not, the census is 80 years old and anything but accurate and that is a fact. How would you feel if we used a 80 year old census about FYROM to represent it's current state? Would that be accurate? One more time, read my explanation above carefully and do a little more research. The 70% percent figure needs to go, and the survey is our best option until a proper census on religion is conducted in Albania.--I Pakapshem (talk) 21:30, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree, we should leave the two figures there as it is hard to say an exact number. I also believe that most of the 70% percent of population that get counted as Muslims are not religious at all, but that's just my view. Thank you. kedadial 21:17, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

In light of the recent demographic study carried out by Pew for over 3 years and just released, it states that Muslims account for 79.9% with all other religions and affiliations accounting for 19.1%. This is backed up by a 2008 report by the Ministry of Statistics of Albania as well as Unicef. Furthermore 95% of the Muslims in Albania are Sunni and less than 5% are Shia/Bektashi

I will leave this message on here for about a week before changing the article. The sources I am providing are http://www.childinfo.org/mics3_surveys.html and http://pewforum.org/docs/?DocID=451. You will need to download the pdf's.

I believe these are the most up to date and sources as well as unbiased. The statistics provided should not be confused with how much of the population is actually practicing that is a moot point. It’s to do with religious affiliation. Furthermore the source that has been provided for the 9% claim is not verifiable at all!! I remember seeing the link, and it did not seem to be publicised on any official website, and looked like it had been drawn up by kids. I believe what I have provided are the most authoritative and reliable statistics to date. I hope people don’t delete it when I change it, unless there is actually evidence of studies carried out that are more authoritative

Thank you

--Elias101 (talk) 10:58, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Autochthony of Albanians

The autochthony of Albanians is generally accepted to day by scholarship.In fact, the theory of Albanian autochthony has never been disputed with such determination and savagery as today, precisely when so much scientific proof has been produced in its support. Nevertheless, the number of researchers still today refusing to take into consideration the many arguments supplied by different academic disciplines has shrunk, or, more accurately, absolutely the only researchers who deny the theory of Albanian autochthony are Serbian.Dr. Aleksander STIPCEVIC.THE QUESTION OF ILLYRIAN-ALBANIAN CONTINUITY AND ITS POLITICAL TOPICALITY TODAY</ref> —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.106.109.10 (talk) 14:15, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Member states of La Francophonie

I see this new category has been added [2], I find it somewhat hard to believe but I don't know enough about Albania to tell. Should that category stay? FFMG (talk) 15:04, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Hard to believe for me too, but it's true according to the La Francophonie article.--Kotniski (talk) 15:06, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Albanian Religious history - before muslim

Megistias, that part shows that Albanians were Christians before being Muslim and atheist. If you remove that, than you remove a part of basic information on religion. It shows how Albanians is believed to have got their Christian religion. So please discuss before editing. —Anna Comnena (talk) 01:08, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

No Anna it was irregular and out of place.Main article exists.Megistias (talk) 09:49, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Megistias, if you remove it, that you are saying that Albanian were never Christians. That is how information is written. In religion there is the lead, than a brief history. —Anna Comnena (talk) 10:08, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

A simple sentence can be added at the first paragraphs that Albanians were traditionally christians.All that back and forth into time should just ofMegistias (talk) 10:18, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

But it is interesting to know how did Albanians get their religion. —Anna Comnena (talk) 10:28, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Religion, again

A sentence in the "Religion" sentence says "Christianity had to compete with Illyrian paganism until the middle ages". Since that sounds rather odd, I placed a citation needed tag. 13 minutes later, User:AnnaFabiano added a citation, except that it says nothing about Christianity having to compete with Illyrian paganism until the middle ages. Nothing at all. So it should either be removed, or the sentence changed. This is deliberate source falsification in order to push the tired "Albanians are Illyrians" POV. --Athenean (talk) 22:24, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

First of all, the sentence that you are referring to was a stable for a long time now. Second, the reference clearly states that paganism was present until Middle Ages. If you do not like the way the sentence is formed, feel free to suggest, if all editors agree we can change it. On the other hand, if the previous sentence is unclear to you, you can request a reference for it too. —Anna Comnena (talk) 22:32, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Show me where the reference you added says that "Christianity had to compete with Illyrian paganism until the middle ages". Page number? Can you quote it? The fact that it was "stable" means nothing. Only proper sourcing matters, not whether you claim something is "stable". --Athenean (talk) 22:43, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Oh, by the way, Edwin Jacques is most certainly not a WP:RS. Please remove him. --Athenean (talk) 22:45, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

I do not believe that your intimidation will help resolve any issue. If you were interested in resolving anything you would behave a bit more civilized and not imply, whatever it is you imply when you say "Illyrian mania" and leave such arrogant comments. I have added another reference. Though what you are requesting seems odd: Show me where the reference you added says that "Christianity had to compete with Illyrian paganism until the middle ages". I have references that back that statement but no reference that will use those exact words. —Anna Comnena (talk) 22:50, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

1) Edwin Jacques is not a serious source. 2) Where does your other source say anything about "Christianity had to compete with Illyrian paganism until the middle ages"? I'm noy trying to "intimidate" you, I just asked you a simple question. In fact your other source doesn't even mention the middle ages. You quote the following: The reason may be that the Albanians were formed spiritually under the influence of Roman paganism, which was added to the pagan traditions of the Illyrians. Now how does that back up the sentence Christianity had to compete with Illyrian paganism until the middle ages? Can you please explain? --Athenean (talk) 22:55, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Edwin Jacques conforms to all WP:RS standards.

The reason may be that the Albanians were formed spiritually under the influence of Roman paganism, which was added to the pagan traditions of the Illyrians - 1. Albanians were signified as Albanians in the Middle Ages (do you agree?) 2. The sentence shows pagan influence among Albanians and Illyrians.

This sentence ""Christianity had to compete with Illyrian paganism until the middle ages" only shows that Christianity among Albanians was not easily accepted. There existed pre-christian religious (pagan) activities that were somehow also present in the middle ages. The reference backs that. —Anna Comnena (talk) 23:08, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Edwin Jacques does not conform to WP:RS at all. He is not a historian, but a priest. His book does not contain a bibliography, so it is not a WP:RS. To be considered RS, a book must have a bibliography. Now, the rest of what you are saying is just confusing. Albanians were formed in the middle ages. OK, so what? 2. The sentence shows pagan influence among Albanians and Illyrians What pagan influence among Albanians? I'm sorry, but that doesn't make any sense. The only thing your source says is that the Illyrians mixed their own paganism with that of the Romans. Nothing about Illyrian paganism surviving into the middle ages. So if you want to change the sentence to something like Albanians were formed spiritually under the influence of Roman paganism, which was added to the pagan traditions of the Illyrians, that's fine, because that is what your source actually says. But to claim that Illyrian paganism survived into the middle ages based on this is too much of a stretch. --Athenean (talk) 23:21, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

There existed pre-christian religious (pagan) activities that were somehow also present in the middle ages. I'm sorry, but that sounds like total WP:OR. Your source doesn't even mention the middle ages. --Athenean (talk) 23:25, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Albanians were not signified before Middle Ages. So, if the reference says Albanians were formed spiritually under the influence of Roman paganism, which was added to the pagan traditions of the Illyrians it means that they are referring Middle Aged Albanians (though it could be after the middle ages, but then Albanians turned into islam). BTW, how can one make WP:OR on a talk page? —Anna Comnena (talk) 23:30, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually, if you look at Origin of the Albanians, it is more likely that Albanians were formed in early Christian/late Roman times, not the middle ages. They are first mentioned in the historical record in the middle ages, but that is an entirely different point. What you are saying is WP:OR and WP:SYNTH because you take what the source says Albanians were formed spiritually under the influence of Roman paganism, which was added to the pagan traditions of the Illyrians and SYNTHesizing it with Albanians formed in the Middle Ages, which is (a) not true, (b) unsourced. So you are synthesizing the source with an unsourced statement to draw a conclusion that is not backed up by the source. --Athenean (talk) 23:36, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

though it could be after the middle ages. So now you are claiming that Illyrian paganism survived till after the middle Ages, and that Islam had to compete with Illyrian paganism? Come on, be reasonable now. --Athenean (talk) 23:38, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

To recap: Anna inserts a sentence in the reilgion section to the effect of Christianity had to compete with Illyrian paganism until the middle ages, which is unsourced. When challenged she "sources" it with a source that says Albanians were formed spiritually under the influence of Roman paganism, which was added to the pagan traditions of the Illyrians [3], which says nothing about Illyrian paganism surviving in the middle ages in Albania. She then SYNTHesizes this passage with the (unsourced) statement "Albanians formed in the middle Ages" to support the conclusion that Illyrian paganism survived until the middle ages. This is pure SYNTH/OR, it is factually wrong, and makes no sense whatsoever. The way I see it, the current silence indicates an inability to provide an adequate rebuttal or source. Therefore, since she has failed to appropriately source the sentence Christianity had to compete with Illyrian paganism until the middle ages, it should be removed on the grounds that is unsourced WP:OR. --Athenean (talk) 01:34, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

1 jacques is garbage a priest or something not a historian...2 the noel malcolm chapter cites the BELIEFS of an ALBANIAN NATIONALIST not his own opinion...noels words on the other hand 'with this argument, the mythic pattern becomes complete'...87.202.60.49 (talk) 06:49, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

i removed the badly cited sources but i didnt add a fact tag i leave that to more interested eidtors...87.202.60.49 (talk) 06:56, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

To claim that some Albanians were practicing Illyrian paganism in the Middle Ages sounds very adventurous, given the severe limitations of the sourcing. There seems to be a lot of hand-waving going on. In such a difficult area, it might be better to include some direct quotes from the sources in the references, and let the reader decide. An alternative is to omit the whole topic, since the proofs seem weak and it's not clear how important it is to the article. EdJohnston (talk) 15:46, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

After Rome was declared a Christian Empire by Theodosius in 380, laws were passed against pagan practices over the course of the following years. Many of the ancient pagan temples were subsequently defiled, sacked, and destroyed, or converted into Christian sites. As such, the Christianization attributed to Constantine eventually became a more coercive process under Theodosius.From Christianization.

• Also the province of Illyricum provided military for the empire, their religious affiliations would have been taken care of as early as possible.Megistias (talk) 15:55, 30 September 2009 (UTC)