Talk:Sarah Palin

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Editing restriction

I was a little confusing (or just plain confused) with my dates in the previous edits establishing the one-revert editing restrictions, but it's been a week, and it certainly seems like things have calmed down, so the one-revert editing restriction is lifted. Thanks! kmccoy (talk) 01:21, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Children's Birth Dates

In the section called "Family and Religion", two of Sarah Palin's children have birth dates; three do not. Why? I placed Track Palin's birth date there, but it was removed. Why? James Nicol (talk) 15:17, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

I will have to go back in thew archives and look. I remember there was some muck racking about Palin and pre marital sex and the time between marriage and first birth, ect. Wasn't there also privacy issues and how notable each child was, ect. Anyways, I guess this still beats talking about if Palin is pro rape or not. --Tom (talk) 15:28, 13 October 2009 (UTC)ps, I would drop the date for Trig as well, not sure what it really adds. --Tom (talk) 15:32, 13 October 2009 (UTC)pss, I would look at archives 3,4,5,8,9,20,27,39, and 51. --Tom (talk) 15:56, 13 October 2009 (UTC)psss, James Nicol, it looks like you were already involved in this discussion? I guess you just forgot? --Tom (talk) 16:04, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

To me, anyhow, the privacy of children is the most important thing. Listing the year is usually ok, but I wouldn't give any more than that. Zaereth (talk) 16:45, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

I hadn't forgotten, Tom, but I had misremembered it as being settled that information, brief facts, about the family was certainly relevant to a public figure who has placed her family in the limelight and in a situation where the facts can be sourced. I am all in favor of privacy when notable people don't use their families in their fame, but when they do, when family members become stories of their own, then it is Wikipedia's obligation to provide the facts and birth dates are certainly fundamental facts. James Nicol (talk) 06:17, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

I couldn't agree with you more, James Nicol. Don't forget to update the Obama Daughters page with their exact birthdates. tsheiimneken 07:03, 14 October 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by ThinkEnemies (talk • contribs)

Looks like exact dates already appear in Obama#Family_and_personal_life. --skew-t (talk) 07:26, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Good catch, Skew. I do believe that politicians need their families to get elected, and the families do benefit from it. This being the case, I feel parts of their lives are now public, birthdates included. I brought up the Obama girls to keep the discussion and implementation, evenhanded. tsheiimneken (talk) 17:12, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

the privacy of the children? the one born in 88 is no longer a child. and palin's views on premarrital sex make her pre marital activities highly appropriate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.233.178.254 (talk) 21:28, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Not sure we need birth dates for individuals who are not the primary subject of the article. I would err on the side of caution and leave them out. The year is good enough in my opinion regardless of their age.-- — Kbob • Talk • 22:04, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Since it is the mandate of Wikipedia to be informative, then erring on the side of caution means including more, not less. James Nicol (talk) 13:54, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Why are the specific dates of her children's birth relevant to a bio of Sarah Palin? Those dates are relevant in their own articles, but only Bristol Palin has an article of her own. Even though her oldest child is no longer a child, he's not the subject of this article. Having the birth year is enough to establish a chronology. As to Obama's article, the specific dates of his daughters' births should be removed from that article as well, but that is a discussion for Talk:Barack Obama, not Talk:Sarah Palin. Horologium (talk) 14:02, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

This level of detail is neither required nor appropriate, particularly when it's cited to a blog hosted on site named "Palin Deception" or whatever, and this is not the first time we've had this discussion here. The obvious reason is that some hope to lead readers to a specific conclusion on the date of conception for the subject's eldest child. That is a nonsensical rationale that is not only invasive and in poor taste but also unsupported by the dates themselves! James' changes from this morning need to be reverted, unless he can provide some rationale why they belong. Fcreid (talk) 14:08, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

• I removed ALL of the dates. The two sources used by James Nicol were totally unacceptable; one was a smear site with no reliability, and the other was an open wiki. Both manifestly fail WP:RS. Horologium (talk) 14:17, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

I applaud your actions, Horologium. James Nicol was plotting this move for a couple days, you would think he could've found some credible sources, if the dates were accurate. tsheiimneken (talk) 16:59, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

A bio is a biography. A biography is a writing of a life. When your children were born is certainly relevant to your life. In addition, when you have brought your children into the spotlight, then information about them becomes more relevant. A bio entry about, say, Esther Ostrom, who has not surrounded herself in public with her family, who has not cited them in speech after speech, might not feel the need to mention her children’s birthdates, if she has children at all. Sarah Palin, however, made her children news. Thus, the children’s birthdates are certainly relevant.

To compare the article on Sarah Palin to those of her peers (i.e., other politicians): Bill Clinton’s: has Chelsea’s birth date; Al Gore’s: has the birth dates of all three children (the article of his eldest daughter, Karenna, has the birth dates of two of her children, ages ten & eight); Barack Obama’s has his daughters’ birth dates; Joe Biden’s has none of the birth dates, but his two older children have articles of their own, and the notes include citations that include all the children’s birth dates, so a single click or two does offer all the Bidens’ birth dates; John McCain’s does not include his children’s birth dates, but a note to the article about his first wife, Carol Shepp, connects to a source (“The John McCain Story: timeline” [1]) that provides birth dates for all his children); Mitt Romney’s article has birth dates for none of his children; and Mike Huckabee’s article has none of his children’s birth dates.

Thus, the articles on many other politicians include their children’s birth dates, and Wikipedia shows no consistency in this matter. Let us continue to err on the side of more information. Thus, there is no reason for the avid censoring of the birth dates for Sarah Palin’s children.

I agree that the sources could be better. Here are some of the sources that list Track Palin’s birth date as 20 April 1989:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080905132614AAepX9f

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080904132746AAOtJjS

http://www.rightpundits.com/?p=2040

http://www.freebase.com/view/en/sarah_palin/-/people/person/children

http://docrod.blogspot.com/2008/09/idiot-media-reaction-to-bristol-palin.html

http://www.greatlakes4x4.com/showthread.php?t=103089

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.bible/browse_thread/thread/ba5fe4f5b4025459?pli=1

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4168003

Some of these sources are pro-Palin; some are anti-Palin; some are Palin-neutral. I trust that we may find one that we can use. James Nicol (talk) 16:16, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

None of those is a reliable source. I also agree with others that the dates should be omitted for privacy reasons. Sbowers3 (talk) 16:31, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Really? Eight sources that all agree that Track Palin's birth date is 20 April 1989, and Wikipedia cannot rely on any of them or on the simple accumulation?

The privacy argument does not make any sense, for two reasons: One, Wikipedia supplies plenty of birth dates already, so there is no consistent policy abut “privacy”. Two, the subject of the article, Sarah Palin, became well known WITH her children. In her first nationally covered speech, she identified herself as a “hockey mom”. She made sure that we all knew about Track’s entering the army and about Trig’s Down’s syndrome. You cannot surround yourself with your children in front of the t.v. cameras and then claim that simple facts about these children violate privacy. James Nicol (talk) 17:36, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Who is making that claim? Is Sarah Palin editing this article? My take on birth dates is if the person is notable enough to have a Wiki page, then their birth date is fair game, otherwise, what is the exact date, as opposed to year of birth, really adding to the article? Anyways, --Tom (talk) 18:13, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

The answer to your second question, Tom, is Yes. Those attempting to prevent Track Palin’s birth date from appearing in the article are concerned that his birth date might encourage people to think that Sarah Heath’s pregnancy prompted her & Todd Palin’s elopement. The privacy argument is a red herring. When I returned to this article this week, Trig Palin’s birth date was given along with his genetic condition. One can hardly claim “privacy” about one child's birth date while permitting others & even more private information.

To answer your last question, I do not think that we should judge in advance how useful such information might be to one reader or another. If we had to state precisely what each item in each sentence added to an article, then most articles would be exceedingly short. Looking at this Palin article, there are several sentences or clauses that should be removed:

The statement that there has been speculation that Plain will run for president—relevant? It’s just speculation.

Her position amongst her siblings (third of four)—what does this add to the article, anyway?

Her given reason for eloping: relevant how?

Specific vote totals in Wasilla city council elections—what does this add to the article, anyway?

Frank Murkowski’s considering replacing himself in the Senate with Palin: relevant? and where’s the source?

Speaking of the Murkowskis, the article quotes Palin—fairly irrelevantly but significantly—when she blames Track for dissuading her from running for senator against Lisa Murkowski. Again, this claim adds little to the article, but it does show that Palin unhesitantly speaks of her children before the media.

The paragraph mentioning Palin’s visits to Kuwait & Germany in 2006--what does this add to the article, anyway?

One could ask your question, Tom, many more times. When discussing someone’s life, it could be quite relevant to know whether one became a parent on January 1st or on December 31st of a certain year of your life. Again, Wikipedia has no rules AGAINST informing its readers of the birth dates of the children of notable people (see the articles already cited above). Thus, we should err upon the side of provide more information, permitting Wikipedia’s vast readership to use all the information as it chooses. James Nicol (talk) 00:46, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Does Palin use a regular account or ip? --Tom (talk) 02:52, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Ha! The minions follow her will without her needing to give explicit instructions. You can see them in this discussion, in the other subjects within this discussion tab, and in the haste with which they revert any hint of negativity in the Palin article. It's not the most important point, though, Tom. I know that you see that. James Nicol (talk) 05:16, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

That was a good laugh. We actually do get explicit instructions, directly from Wasilla. user:J aka justen (talk) 05:22, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

I have reverted James Nicol again. James, you cannot use freebase, Yahoo answers, or Democratic Underground (!!) as references for anything on Wikipedia, and consensus on this page disagrees with adding specific birthdates for the children (as a violation of WP:UNDUE. You are welcome to request a Third Opinion, or discuss it on the BLP noticeboard, or even start a Request for Comment, but you don't have consensus for your changes, and your citations are wildly in violation of Wikipedia's sourcing guidelines. Horologium (talk) 14:46, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Despite the non-uniform policy across analogous BLP articles and the obvious sourcing issues here, it also remains completely unclear to me how the inclusion of these birth dates adds any value whatsoever to this article. There are many facts about the subject herself that aren't even captured in this article, so I can't fathom why would we ignore the privacy concerns and pad the article with facts relevant to non-notable persons. Fcreid (talk) 14:56, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

The reverts that are now starting back and forth between User:James Nicol and User:Horologium need to stop. Please edit in an attempt to find consensus, using the talk page, edit summaries, and getting further opinions from other editors. I'm eager to see that this article remain only semi-protected at most, no more protecting because a couple of editors disagree on the content. kmccoy (talk) 15:04, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Horologium's revert was necessary give the source used, i.e. a smear blog with vicious speculation that the subject's first child, born eight months after marriage, may have been conceived before that marriage. That type of reference has no place in a BLP. However, the source also answers my curiosity on intent... it would appear an editor wishes to introduce the birth date to stimulate the same invasive speculation into this BLP. For the record, eight months is pretty close to full-term, so much so I'm not even sure a baby is considered premature at that point. More importantly, the subject was 25 years old and had been dating her future husband since high school. Is it really necessary to speculate on that? Fcreid (talk) 15:45, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Kmccoy, I agree with you. If you look at my changes today, I included only the birth dates of the two children who are now adults (one of whom has a Wikipedia article already) with three independent sources for Track’s birth date of 20 April 1989, and I included the birth date for baby Trig, since he was SO MUCH in the news last year. I was trying to find a compromise position. There is no consensus here for including or for excluding, and, if you read previous talk pages, you will see no consensus there either.

In the spirit of erring on the side of more information (Wikipedia’s mission is to inform, after all), I made today’s revision. The immediate reversion, wiping out all birth dates, except that of little Tripp Johnston (certainly the most irrelevant birth date of all), is a bit risible and does not demonstrate any consensus either. As for the sources, I shall find better ones, but that argument is a red herring. No one has found any other birth date for Track other than 20 April 1989. All the sources (weaker or stronger) agree on the birth date.

I have read WP:UNDUE. It supports including neutral factual information. Birth dates fall into that category. I really don’t see where the problem is here. I shall not continue to include the birth dates in the article, but this demonstrates that Wiki-articles need more consistent management. It is troubling that there is a small minority who insist upon exclusion when Wikipedia should stand for inclusion. James Nicol (talk) 15:40, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Your "sources" for Track's birthdate include an extremist partisan discussion forum (which is explicitly tied to speculation about the interval between the marriage and Track's birth), freebase (which is both a Wikipedia mirror and an open database) and Yahoo answers (which is also an open wiki). I think someone should go in and remove Tripp's birthdate as well, but I'll hold off doing it myself for now. The birth years are enough for the children, and they need to be sourced to something reliable. Horologium (talk) 15:49, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

I am sorry, Fcreid & Horologium, that you don't like my sources. I seek better ones. I note, however, that you don't deny the fact of the birth date, simply that you disapprove of the sources' reliability. There was no "extremely partisan discussion" surrounding the mention of his birth date in any source I used. Naturally, people might speculate about Track's birth vis-a-vis the Palins' marriage. People have been speculating about such forever, particularly with elopements. That isn't an argument for denying basic information that is provided in many other articles. Let me ask, again, do you have another birth date for Track? If not, then the sources aren't really the issue, are they? James Nicol (talk) 15:57, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Our threshold is not accuracy or truth, it's verifiability. As best as I can immediately tell, none of the sources itemized above come anywhere near our requirements for reliability, so, yes, the sources are part of the issue. user:J aka justen (talk) 16:06, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

(E/C with J) Okay, since you have basically admitted that the real issue is Track's birth date, we can dispense with the pretense that you are looking to provide as much information as possible (IRT the other children's birth dates). The problem is both with the sources you have provided (they are inappropriate in tone and reliability) and the content itself (the exact birth dates are not important). It's not that Track is a minor (we all agree that he is not). Track is not a notable figure, and this is a biography of his mother, not him. The precise dates are not important, even if they are sourced to the New York Times or some other bulletproof source. Horologium (talk) 16:11, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't really have strong feelings in terms of whether this information should be included in general, but I would like to point out, James Nicol, that as an article about a living person, the provisions in WP:BLP apply. This means that instead of assuming we should include every bit of information that we can, the assumption is that information should not be included unless there's a compelling encyclopedic reason to do so. It even has specific guidance on birth dates. Your arguments that I've seen so far have been generally based on the idea that the information should be included because it's true, and that Wikipedia "should stand for inclusion", and that "Wikipedia’s mission is to inform". But in this sort of a case, the default stance is to exclude the information until a) it's verifiable through a reliable source, b) it's notable and not simply trivia, and c) a positive argument for the purpose of including it has been made. I appreciate your attempts to edit towards consensus, but in a case like this, you need to have strong support for inclusion before you make those edits. Thanks. kmccoy (talk) 16:23, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, Kmmcoy, it’s an interesting issue. The WP:BLP on birth dates isn’t really definitive. As I pointed out above, plenty of articles about Palin’s colleagues include the children’s birth dates or, at least, provide sources that provide such. I agree that some information is merely trivial, although, god knows, one of Wikipedia’s uses is as a treasure trove of trivia. How many articles even have a “Trivia” section, accompanied by the huffy disclaimer (reminding one a bit of Margaret Dumont) that Wikipedia ought NOT to be a place for trivia.

This is not the place for what-Palin-likes-for-lunch (although I’d be willing to hear a case that even that information might illumine or enlighten), but the birth dates of the children of a woman who surrounds herself with her children before the t.v. cameras, who likes to describe herself as “mom”, thus defined BY her children, are no longer merely trivial. As Palin wants to be identified with her children, then a few facts about them serve to enrich the portrait of Palin herself. This, certainly, would include birth dates.

It is a crude measure, but googling the name “Track Palin” came up with 174,000 hits. The first one being from “Conservatives 4 Palin”, wondering “how Track Palin is doing”. Googling the other children: Trig, 65,400; Willow, 336,000; and poor Piper, only 19,000. With that degree and level of interest, one can hardly claim that listing the birth date in Wikipedia violates any privacy.

(By the way, Google even has a related search, “‘track palin’” birthday [sic]”(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&num=100&q=%22track+palin%22+birthday&revid=757981038&ei=V7jcSvjjOoLe8QbC1Ii3BQ&sa=X&oi=revisions_inline&resnum=0&ct=broad-revision&cd=1&ved=0CNQCENUCKAA), with over 3000 hits of its own. The exclusionists may get their way here, but the world knows young Mr. Palin’s birth date, which seems to be their main worry. Indeed, they have tacitly admitted such: No one can come up with a reason to doubt the factuality of the information from these “unreliable” sources”.)

Thanks for wanting to discuss this in a calm way, Kmccoy. James Nicol (talk) 19:33, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Whether she does or does not choose to "surround herself with children before the television cameras" or whether she does or does not "like to describe herself as a 'mom'" doesn't change wp:blp. They are children, they are entitled to some level of privacy, and unless or until they establish notability on their own (since it isn't inherited), we need to be careful to ensure the information we share about them is necessary. Since I've never seen their dates of birth published in newspapers, I'm assuming folks wiser than me have established that they are not essential details for coverage of Sarah Palin, and I would tend to agree. user:J aka justen (talk) 19:46, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

James (I hope it's okay that I address you informally), I'm happy to address this issue further. As I mentioned before, I actually don't really care if the dates are included or not.. you will probably not see me make an edit in either direction on the page itself. I can understand the arguments in both directions. Personally, I love trivia. I'm the sort of person who can spend hours browsing the trivia entries on IMDB. In most articles, I believe the default stance should be to keep most information (though I also appreciate an article which keeps an encyclopedic tone.) However, biographies of living people are given special consideration on Wikipedia, in part just because it's the right thing to do, but also in part because of some negative publicity Wikipedia has received in the past related to unfounded claims, some of which were almost libelous. The spirit of the BLP policy is that articles about living people should generally be conservative and the insertion of any information needs to be not only carefully supported by verifiable, reliable sources, but also justified by a reason that the information *should* be included. Let's be honest here, the reason that this is an issue at all is that the inclusion of the information could allow one to deduce that one of the children was conceived before marriage. If that were not the case, there would certainly not be as many sources to find for the birthdate of the oldest child. I am no fan of the subject of the article. Not a single bit, really. But I am here to participate in creating an encyclopedia, and this sort of thing just feels a tiny bit like it's morphing us from being encyclopedists to being tabloid rumor-mongers, or talk-show radio pundits, or something, and what's worse is that it's being done in a sneaky way. I think, if it's important to tell the readers that a child was conceived before marriage, then you should simply tell them.

Anyway, I rambled on much longer than I intended here. kmccoy (talk) 22:24, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

I must agree fully with J's statement, and with Kmccoy. A public figure obviously warrants more invasive coverage than a private citizen, but the children of those figures are still private citizens. It has been stated here that the goal of inserting this information is to lable one young man a bastard as a smear attemt against his mother, without any regard for the child or even substantial evidence that it may be factual. Claiming that the child is now an adult does not absolve him of his right to privacy. I am against including the fine details of any private citizen, and especially children whose lives can be altered irrevocably. I would advocate the removal of such dates from the Obama article or any other biography, living or not. If these children decide someday to enter the limelight themselves, only then should such details become fair game. Zaereth (talk) 22:58, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

important tidbit to this discusssion TRACK IS NOT A CHILD —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.233.178.254 (talk) 20:44, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Track is not *a* child, but he is *her* child. Everyone understands that Track is an adult. His age is not relevant to the discussion. Horologium (talk) 20:53, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, Kmccoy, for your thoughtful opinion. Wikipedia cannot stop the occasional libel from entering its articles, and it is FULL of misinformation, of course, but that does not mean that we should become too conservative. Information should be spread around. I would rather all writers be encouraged to enter any factual information they can. Once it is reasonably organized, then readers can sort it out for themselves.

Those who worry that readers, given, say, Track Palin’s birth date, might conclude pregnancy as a motivation for elopement patronize readers & treat them like children. This mania for “relevance” would lead to articles that simply state the barest facts. As I pointed out above, the article on Sarah Palin already includes a myriad of less-than-relevant facts. Instead of CONTROLLING information, Wikipedia should ORGANIZE & PROVIDE information.

In my opinion, birth dates of one’s children are always relevant & interesting. I encourage their inclusion everywhere. Give people the facts (Sarah Heath & Todd Palin eloped on 29 August 1988; Sarah Palin gave birth to Track Palin on 20 April 1989) and let people decide for themselves. Except for the attempted restraint of basic information, I could not care less. James Nicol (talk) 22:57, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

I hope you understand this doesn't hurt Sarah Palin, if true. If she's against premarital sex, it wouldn't be because she's a hypocrite, it would mean she has learned from her rich experiences as a proud career women. I'm sure the current President would tell you not to do narcotics, and how addictive smoking can be. Dubya would tell you that drinking in excess is detrimental to one's life and career. Clinton would tell you what not to do as a married man, etc. Your obsession with this woman and her family is indecorous, to say the least. ThinkEnemies (talk) 23:29, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Personal attack removed. kmccoy (talk) 21:57, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Excepting your last sentence, ThinkEnemies, I completely agree with you. The facts do not and are not to hurt. In no way does anything about these dates or any other pertinent facts about Sarah Palin hurt Palin. Facts & information do good, and I am glad that you agree.

Now, let us wait a bit longer to see whether there is any further discussion about this matter. I look forward to making this article, and all Wikipedia articles, more informative & more inclusive. Let the readers decide on relevance. Writers & editors should worry about craft & organization.

Tom, replying to ThinkEnemies isn’t feeding any trolls. I applaud anyone who wants to add to a rational, substantial discussion. James Nicol (talk) 19:41, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Personal attack removed. kmccoy (talk) 21:57, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Find reliable sources that make an issue of it, and we can talk about including something along those lines. Until then, it's a moot point. user:J aka justen (talk) 19:54, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

I removed a couple of comments that were completely unacceptable. Use talk pages to discuss content, not contributors, please. Thank you. kmccoy (talk) 21:57, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, Kmccoy.

Here are more sources concerning the birth dates of Track, Bristol, & Trig Palin:

1. ^ Thompson, Derek (September 4, 2008). "The Sarah Palin FAQ: Everything you ever wanted to know about the Republican vice presidential nominee". Slate. http://www.slate.com/id/2199362/pagenum/all.
2. ^ "Mahalo facts on Trig Palin". http://www.mahalo.com/trig-palin.
3. ^ "Welcome to Alaska, Trig Paxson Van Palin". ktuu.com. http://www.ktuu.com/global/story.asp?s=8194634. Retrieved 2008-08-29.
4. ^ "Alaska governor gives birth to 5th child, a boy named Trig". bostonherald.com. http://www.bostonherald.com/news/national/west/view.bg?articleid=1088213. Retrieved 2008-08-29.
5. ^ Quinn, State of Alaska. "3PA-07-08535MO State of Alaska vs. Palin, Bristol S". Alaska Trial Court Cases. http://courtrecords.alaska.gov/pa/ep.urd/pamw2000.o_party_sum?44738506. Retrieved 2008-09-03.
6. ^ Quinn, State of Alaska. "3PA-07-11041MO State of Alaska vs. Palin, Track CJ". Alaska Trial Court Cases. http://courtrecords.alaska.gov/pa/ep.urd/pamw2000.o_party_sum?60228069%7C1

I hope that other writer-editors find some of these reliable. James Nicol (talk) 07:22, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant sources that reach the conclusions you had mentioned earlier you wanted the article to delve into. (And, for future reference, court documents are generally considered not considered reliable secondary sourcing for our purposes.) You may be able to reliable source the birth dates; given our policy, however, you need reliable sourcing justifying why these dates must be included (beyond the "mere" fact that they are facts, and the other arguments already discussed). user:J aka justen (talk) 07:36, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment, J., but please read this entire discussion (all 34 kilobytes) to see the justification to include these birth dates. The policy does not refuse birth dates. It simply recommends taking care. We have taken care simply to include birth dates of the two children who have attained majority & the youngest, whose birth prompted so much discussion last year. Pertinance has already been established, and many of the articles on similar politicians include birth dates for all children. What is good for the gander is good for the goose. No one would want to claim that Sarah Palin is a special case and deserves especial censorship, I trust. James Nicol (talk) 08:25, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

You might have noticed I've participated throughout the discussion, and have paid close attention to the arguments. I also notice that others have explained to you that including the dates of birth is not necessary unless and until it helps significant illuminate the content of the article; since there are no reliable sources yet provided pointing out to us why the dates of birth might be particularly notable, the dates of birth should remain out of the article. As for your goose and gander argument, you might want to take a look at wp:ose, and I'll add that if I were involved in the Barrack Obama article, I would highly suggest removing dates of birth, just as I would make the same argument for anyone not meeting our notability standards. As of currently, that applies to each of the children in question here and there. That being said, unless and until you have reliable sources commenting that their dates of birth have some significant relevance, I don't plan to comment further, as it just looks like you're going around and around in circles at this point. user:J aka justen (talk) 08:33, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Actually, J, the Slate article demonstrates the reason that Track's birth date might be important. Again, if you held that standard for every piece of information in this article, as I wrote above, how much of it would remain? I don't think that any argument would persuade you, as you are a Wassillan, as far as this article is concerned. Wikipedia articles must be factual, not hagiographic. James Nicol (talk) 12:49, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

James, I have remained quiet in the hopes that you could address those specific concerns raised by kmccoy above. There is a simple solution: find [[WP:RS|Reliable Sources] that make the same connection you strive to make in this article, i.e. that the subject's first child may have been conceived prior to marriage. If you do not find those sources, perhaps you should consider potential reasons for that, e.g. that no such conclusion can be drawn given the dates, that the matter lacks both decorum as well as significance for a professional 25 year-old, etc. Once you've assessed those potential reasons, I think you'll see greater reason to kmccoy's guidance that WP:BLP warrant special considerations for the non-notable relatives of notable people. Fcreid (talk) 14:46, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

A Wasillan? J is from West Virginia and sometimes lives in Montreal (according to his userpage). He's also a Democrat (again, according to his userpage). Not everyone who disagrees with you is a Sarah Palin bootlicker, and I (for one) am getting damn sick and tired of your endless bad-faith assumptions. Horologium (talk) 12:56, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

James, User:j is not the only editor who has disagreed with the inclusion of this information. In fact, I presented a number of concerns above which remain unaddressed. I urge to keep your comments focused on the content of the dispute rather than what you believe is in the mind of the people with whom you are disagreeing. kmccoy (talk) 13:07, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

I to disagree with user James Nicol. Can folks please also see Todd Palin. I have been reported, my comments retracted and what else. At what point does this end. Thank you very much and have a pleasent day and I hope everybody is well. Cheers, --Tom (talk) 14:03, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Count me as against including the dates. Good editors put aside their POV and do what is best for the encyclopedia. Sadly, some editors use the encyclopedia as an opportunity to push their POV. There are many good editors here with a variety of POVs who agree that including the dates is not appropriate. Sbowers3 (talk) 14:55, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

I cannot spend all day on this, I’m afraid, so just some quick responses: Firstly, I take this quite seriously and have tried to make rational & substantive arguments. I was joking, however, with J, because earlier (see above) he had referred to getting all his commands straight from Wasilla and because it seemed that he was holding to the standard “Unless you can convince me, you can’t do it”, which doesn’t seem to be the Wiki-way.

Kmccoy, I thought that I had addressed your concerns. What remains? I certainly agree that we should focus on the content of the dispute. As for Fcreid’s point, the Slate article does make a point about Track Palin’s birth date: Thompson, Derek. "The Sarah Palin FAQ: Everything you ever wanted to know about the Republican vice presidential nominee". Slate. http://www.slate.com/id/2199362/pagenum/all. Personally, I am with Kmccoy that the T.C.J. Palin’s conception is not especially interesting. I simply hold to the standard that Wikipedia should always err on the side of INclusion (making well-organized & well-crafted articles, of course), and leaving it up to readers & researchers to do with as they may. Essentially, if information is reliably sourced, then, as long as it isn't tossed in willy-nilly, it has a right to exist, and the arguments must be made to remove it.

What I would like to see is less effort placed on deletion & much more placed on shaping. C’est fini pour aujourd’hui. A bientôt. James Nicol (talk) 15:57, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for agreeing to stick to discussing the content, and not the contributors. "I would like to point out, James Nicol, that as an article about a living person, the provisions in WP:BLP apply. This means that instead of assuming we should include every bit of information that we can, the assumption is that information should not be included unless there's a compelling encyclopedic reason to do so." <-- I said that further back in this discussion, and I think that's what remains. We are not a Sarah Palin FAQ, we're not even journalism. The reality is that in the case of the BLP policy, we simply do not "err on the side of INclusion". Your assertion that "if information is reliably sourced, then, as long as it isn't tossed in willy-nilly, it has a right to exist, and the arguments must be made to remove it" is not supported by policy, and in fact it is contrary to the intention of the BLP policy. kmccoy (talk) 16:06, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Here's the thing: Track's birthday (is that his name?) is most certainly relevant. Why would an editor get to decide that this completely above board and known piece of information ought to be excluded because of what may or may not be gleaned from its inclusion? The subject is an adult and he was "born", so put it in the article! Maybe someone is making an astrological chart about the first-born children of famous women. Or, maybe someone is trying to determine the credentials of someone who advocates a specific form of behavior regarding marriage/giving birth. as ThinkEnemies would argue, It doesn't matter anyway: "I hope you understand this doesn't hurt Sarah Palin, if true. If she's against premarital sex, it wouldn't be because she's a hypocrite, it would mean she has learned from her rich experiences..." That's his conclusion. might everyone be allowed to come to their own? love Jack --Jackroy23 (talk) 18:45, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Is her Mum's name Sarah or Sally?

The article says Sarah, but I've seen Sally in most articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.253.55.25 (talk) 21:46, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Sally is Sarah. -- Zsero (talk) 00:04, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

dates

the article says she was married in 1988. What month? and what year and month was her first child born? I am unable to find those details in the article —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.233.178.254 (talk) 21:20, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

what I am getting at is it appears she was having sex before marriage and got pregnant, that is why she eloped. the exact dates will tell, assuming those dates can be verified. if so then these facts should be in the article.

interesting, this article http://celebgalz.com/track-palin-birthday-sarah-palins-son-conceived-out-of-wedlock/ mentions the date being removed from the sarah palin wiki article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.233.178.254 (talk) 21:38, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

The article you linked gives exact calculation of dates: 7 months, 21 days and some number of hours after their wedding day. Simple math tells us that the subject could have barely have detected one missed monthly cycle before scrambling to elope, which makes less sense than the obvious: that the child was born a few weeks early. In any case, that level of intrusive and speculative detail is unwarranted in any BLP article. Fcreid (talk) 21:54, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, its not our job as editors to figure things out. That's called Original Research in Wiki-speak. If there are reliable secondary sources that comment on Palin's marriage and child births than that we could consider for inclusion but this 2 + 2 approach is not appropriate for an encyclopedia.-- — Kbob • Talk • 22:00, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Agreed for the reasons stated by Fcreid and KBob. Also, beyond the scope of wikipolicy, theorizing about a subject's sex life is in very poor taste. Zaereth (talk) 22:50, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

(fyi) Proposal to merge "Resignation ..."

See: Talk:Resignation_of_Sarah_Palin#Merger_proposal ... (Dif of merge tag)

NOTE: There have now been two AfDs for Resignation of Sarah Palin—see 2nd AfD here (closed:keep).

Those who were actively editing this main article when the sub-article was created, I believe, have a feeling for why it is worthwhile to keep the Resignation article. (I have further arguments to make with respect to why keep it, but am postponing that discussion for the moment.)

META COMMENT: There seems to be what might be described (by me:) as improper zeal for getting rid of that article. My support for keeping the article is, of course, based on pure disinterested rationality untainted by zeal of any kind. :) Proofreader77 (talk) 20:20, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Rename Family and Religion to Personal life?

It seems more fitting, and it's generally what is used. 98.198.83.12 (talk) 21:32, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, excellent point, I agree.-- — Kbob • Talk • 14:37, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Author?

Should she be listed as an author since her book Going Rouge is set to be released soon and is already a best-seller in the pre-sell list? Are authors of memoirs counted as authors? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.118.248.210 (talk) 18:10, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

She's writing a book about make-up? csloat (talk) 16:19, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

The writing of the memoir was arguably incidental to her actual career in public life. If she goes on to write other books, then perhaps she would then be considered an "author," but not yet (in my opinion). jæs (talk) 07:00, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Sarah Palin and the "Wiki-Whitewash"

When I Googled "Sarah Palin Wiki" today to get to this page, I waded past numerous Google listings discussing the "Young Trigg" Wiki editing activities surrounding this article. I reviewed them briefly and learned that the incident had resulted in some fundamental changes to Wikipeida's editting process. I would suggest that a reference to that incident, its implications for electronic media's veracity, and its direct impact on Wikipedia's policies might be appropriate and necessary for this article. 24.162.243.252 (talk) 07:08, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Oh you mean this kind of talk I suppose. The histories of articles on many candidates for US political office are marked by such white/blackwashing; certainly it's nothing unusual within Wikipedia. One implication is that Wikipedia is unreliable, but this fact is well known both within Wikipedia and outside it. Did this particular incident have any direct impact on WP's policies? If it did, then conceivably it might deserve mention in an article, but surely not in this one. -- Hoary (talk) 07:19, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't recall the User:Young Trigg situation having much of a direct impact on Wikipedia policies? I guess you could say it was one additional justification for the push crawl towards flagged revisions, but I don't think any reliable sources ever covered that beyond the initial "coincidence" of the article seeing a significant spike in revisions the night before the announcement. Although there was some mainstream coverage fo that, it just doesn't seem biographical, frankly. user:J aka justen (talk) 07:35, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

My first thought was to dismiss this, but on second thought realized it is a very interesting question: Under what circumstances would coverage of Wikipedia editing of an article be included in that article. Hmmm. Now as to Sarah Palin, since this is her article's talk page, consider context of "Palin and social media" (note ref links in archive - did not reach consensus for inclusion)... Proofreader77 (talk) 07:58, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that any sound source has given sound evidence that "Young Trigg" was closely related to the Palin campaign machine. (Far more likely a Joe job, or anyway a Trigg job.) And the amount of coverage it got paled beside that of other Palin non-issues, such as the alleged allegation of the visibility of Russia from Alaska. Now consider John Seigenthaler; the major component of his recent mass media prominence is editorial crassness at Wikipedia, and this is (rightly) written up in an article, but not in that on him. -- Hoary (talk) 08:08, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Interesting. We're now in the realm of forum lol ... but I would think if there is any article in which Wikipedia editing of the article would include it's mention ... it would be Seigenthaler's. (Yes, it ought to be in there.) Now ... as to Sarah Palin, the most interesting Wikipedia story is the rumor that was kept out (proved a rumor by a Monday morning press conference due to the internet rumor). Proofreader77 (talk) 22:34, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Proofreader, if you look at the Siegenthaler bio, the controversy article is linked in a disambiguation link (at the top of the article, as a hatnote). The difference is that the Siegenthaler incident resulted in worldwide press coverage and substantial and persistent changes in Wikipedia policy; it was as a direct result of that incident that unregistered editors lost the ability to create articles. "Young Trigg"'s activities resulted in a bit of press coverage, a lot of blogswarming, and no change in policy, and neither an article nor a mention in this article are appropriate courses of action. Horologium (talk) 03:44, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Many thanks, Horologium, for information I did not know. ... Even with hatnote, not sure the event shouldn't be mentioned in his article (briefly)—many many years in the distant future it will remain to be seen if the the Wikipedia incident is mentioned in obit. But that is pure forum. :) Back to Palin, the question of whether Wikipedia is actually "social media" or something else ... but if it is "social media" then "Young Trig" episode might go in subtopic on her and that. Just maybe. :) Cheers. Proofreader77 (talk) 03:57, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

2012 speculation & polls

The "2012 speculation" section devotes a rather long paragraph to opinion polls taken in July 2009. Time marches on and there have been more opinion polls since then, including one released today.[2]. Unless something changes dramatically, there will be more polls in the future. Perhaps that July 2009 paragraph could be trimmed to make room for later information. If we devote as much space to future polls as we do to the July numbers then the article will just be a bunch of statistics. Just a thought.   Will Beback  talk  19:33, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

To the extent that the polls are consistent, we could summarize them by saying something like "numerous polls from the time of her nomination through November 2009, indicate that ...". I do think a link to the most recent should be included. Ucanlookitup (talk) 00:36, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't know that they are consistent, since they all give different numbers and breakdown the responses differently as well. Perhaps the best solution would be to pick one of the polls from before the resignation and one from after, and just delete the rest. It'll probably be necessary to spin off the section into a separate article. Mauybe the solution is to just let it grow towards that eventuality.   Will Beback  talk  05:02, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Article should mention negative aspects

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8363607.stm

other Republicans regard the prospect with undisguised horror, believing the former governor of Alaska would simply lead the party into oblivion.

This reference says the above. This doesn't mean she is bad or good but there is the feeling that she is bad for the Republican party. Consider adding this. Fuwiwebssti (talk) 02:26, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Going Rogue

I have reverted TharsHammar and JæsDisembrangler, who have both edited the article to state that Palin's autobiography was written by Lynn Vincent (or a ghostwriter). This is not an NPOV presentation of the facts; additionally, it is misleading because of the way the information is presented. According to Time, a reliable source, the book was completed early because Palin had much more time to write after resigning as governor, not because of any additional effort on Vincent's part, regardless of what The Daily Beast may think. (Time article) The other problem is asserting that the book was written by Vincent is not in line with similar books written by other politicians. The Wikipedia bio on Hillary Clinton mentions both of her major works (It Takes a Village and Living History) without mentioning that they were also ghostwritten. The articles themselves mention the ghostwriters, but not the main article. Omitting the references to Vincent in the Sarah Palin bio is appropriate and in line with established pratice elsewhere in Wikipedia. Horologium (talk) 12:17, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Just to clarify, my only edit was to remove a completely unreliable source from the article. In doing so, my edit restored the sourced content from Time, which is that Palin completed the book early (without mentioning any "ghostwriter"). I also agree that it is not necessary to discuss Lynn Vincent at this biography (although perhaps it would be appropriate at Going Rogue: An American Life). jæs (talk) 13:25, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

My apologies to Jæs; I misread the diffs and confused you with Disembrangler, who was the one who reintroduced the Daily Beast cite and the reference to the ghostwriter. And yes, the ghostwriter should be (and is) discussed at the book's article. I have altered my original comment to correct that error; I also added a brief clarification since Disembrangler mentioned Vincent by position only, not by name, in his edit. Horologium (talk) 14:30, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

I concur with this change. The book is an autobiography versus a biography, so attempts to credit it to a different author are inappropriate. Fcreid (talk) 13:54, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

The source given is an opinion blog, hence not properly usable except by noting it as opinion (and it says 90% of all politician books are ghost-written). I would add that the mentions about "policy" given by Limbaugh and Fox are concatenated in a wondrous example of SYN. "Conservative radio host Rush Limbaugh said that the book was "one of the most substantive policy books I've read." Fox News reported that the book has 13 pages out of the 432 pages devoted to policy matters.[215]" Collect (talk) 14:32, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Ancestors

Has anybody done researcb on Sarah Palin's genealogy? Is the radical pietist Maria Elisabeth Pahlin (1680-1750)her ancestor?