Talk:Michael Cremo

With all respect to Wikipedia author or editors. Like a Humanistic scholar, I found this article on Dr. Cremo view like tipical partidistic of the materialistic optic; like those so calle skceptical thinkers, whose are atheistic and gross materialistics. But this is no scientific or philosophical objetive people. So, Cremo work had been review in the top most promiments archology journals and many erudites appreaciate his work. Also, he is a European Archologistics Society and the Science History Association member, he earned a Ph D in Honoris Causa in philosphy of science at end. Any coolhead independent intelectual can appraciate his achievements. Regards. Dr. Franciso Esquivel Reyes. M.C. Ph. D in Organical Quimic from Universidad Autónoma de Coahuila Saltillo, Coah. Mexico.

Talk radio and WP:UNDUE

If Cremo's highest profile is that he regularly features on talk-radio (notorious for its low standards and the favoured venue for a large range of WP:FRINGE views), then this doesn't say much for him. I will attempt to rewrite this sentence so that it more accurately characterises the forum on which Cremo is presenting his ideas. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 07:51, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Undue

A lot of material presented here is ether undue or does not provide WP:YESPOV on the subject. The subject of FA is not as notable as well but if anything, should be presented from a neutral point of view. Wikidās ॐ 06:56, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

I think Cremo passes any reasonable interpretation of WP:N, as I explained in my last edit summary to the article. But I do agree that the article was going a little overboard with the criticism sections. Zagalejo^^^ 07:32, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

On the issue of WP:UNDUE, why are we giving about as much space for his being on Coast to Coast AM as we do for the entire scientific community's rejection of his work? Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 09:10, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

I think there should be some balance on any article and especially on WP:BLP articles. The section of criticism is certainly off balance, besides being full of dubious sources. So clearly to comply with req of BLP one should ether merge it into some pseudo science related article or keep it in complience with BLP - and that means no dubious sources and no slant on way or another. Read up Wikidās ॐ 18:06, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

There was a point when we just started piling things on. It should be sufficient to simply explain why his ideas have been criticized by the scientific community. I think the last paragraph (as of this edit) does that well. If we try to throw in every negative comment we can find, the prose suffers, and the article starts to look like an attack piece. Zagalejo^^^ 19:47, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Splitting up the article

It looks like the article to contain all the critical material needs to be merged, at least the section of it on FA. Otherwise it needs to be reported to the BLP taskforce for non compliance.Wikidās ॐ 19:49, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand where the material would fit in Evolutionary history of life. That merge would never stick. Zagalejo^^^ 19:50, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Then maybe a sub article or an article for the book itself? The book however is about Evolutionary history of life, even I have not read it (sorry). Wikidās ॐ 07:30, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

It may be "about Evolutionary history of life", but it is a 'tiny minority viewpoint about Evolutionary history of life' and so should not be included in that article. As to splitting the book off into a new article, I don't really think there's enough notability for two articles. Cremo is notable pretty-near-solely for the views that this book are the main embodiment of. Further, the 'overlap' & 'context' criteria of WP:MERGE would appear to work against it. The simple fact of the matter is that Cremo is known principally for the views in that book, so an article on him cannot escape from giving WP:DUE weight to the criticism of his views contained in that book. If you make your career out of telling large chunks of the scientific community that it's wrong, then you have to expect to take your knocks -- both in real life & on your wikipedia article (as much of the coverage of you will be negative). Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 08:42, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Obviously the main point is not WP:DUE but the principles of WP:BLP. I suggest that an article that is solely or mainly about criticism of a book that a person co-authored and is not his exclusive research can not exist. The policy is:

"Criticism and praise of the subject should be represented if it is relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to take sides;"

Thus just comply with it and do not "overwhelm the article" with it especially if reliable secondary sources are not that reliable or WP:V. If you insist on making it a coatrack the material will just be removed, even if the COAT is accidentally evolved through excessive focus on one aspect of the subject. Enforcement of the policies on biographies of living individuals and WP:NOT makes it clear that "coatrack" articles are a particularly pressing problem where living individuals are concerned.Wikidās ॐ 11:50, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

WP:BLP closely echoes (and directly cites) WP:DUE: "Be careful not to give a disproportionate amount of space to particular viewpoints, to avoid the effect of representing a minority view as if it were the majority one." The article therefore should give proportionate space to the majority (scientific) viewpoint, and avoid giving disproportionate space to minority (Hindu creationist and paranormalist) views. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 13:20, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Create a separate 'scientific' article, this is BLP, do not make a coatrack out of this article. Not acceptable or is it your agenda? Wikidās ॐ 13:27, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

No. Cremo has made a career out of making pseudoscientific claims, so the scientific viewpoint is directly relevant. It makes no more sense to "create a separate 'scientific' article" than it does to 'create a separate Hindu creationist article' or 'a separate paranormalist article'. Being a BLP does not shield the subject of an article from WP:DUE weight to criticism that is relevant to their notability. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 13:34, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

In truth since I know the guy he has made a career out being Gaudiya Vaisnava and its religious presentation. He only co-authored the book, that was in most written and researched by late Thompson. Even if he made his way trough 'pseudo science' -- still it will not qualify to have not-neutral or bias in the BLP. Wikidās ॐ 14:32, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

If he is not notable for this book, then what is he notable for? I have seen no articulation of an alternate notability, let alone third-party sources to substantiate it. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 15:04, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL - here you go (you probably do not even know what was his name in Hare Krishna movement) Wikidās ॐ 15:21, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Are the references reliable?

I have not heard of Tom Morrow. Does anyone knows him? Is he just a school teacher or is he notable? Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

662 Hogskin Valley Rd Washburn TN 37888-1735 - is it some sort of a home address? If he is not are there any other reliable reviews to support the claims. --Wikidās ॐ 14:50, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

The article was published in the RNCSE, which is published by the National Center for Science Education, and is considered to be a reliable source. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 15:01, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Okay so he is just a school teacher. No credentials, no doctorate degree. An opinion expressed in a 'reliable source', probably would not fly at WP:RSN. Wikidās ॐ 15:18, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

What is your substantiation for claiming that he's "just a school teacher" and has "no credentials, no doctorate degree". It seems highly unlikely that an article in the field of anthropology would be published by NCSE (whose executive director is herself an anthropologist) if it wasn't up to scratch. By all means take it to WP:RS/N, but it would appear to be at least as solid as anything else in this article. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 15:40, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

National Center for Science Education founded by teachers and have many people working and writing for it who have no credentials. Surely there is a slant in the presentation since almost the sole purpose was to attack anyone with religious agenda. I hope you do not suggest that the slant of the National Center for Science Education is the majority view. Certainly no reliable sources to support this view, it can be however mentioned is passing as a single point of view. Wikidās ॐ 16:02, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Don't be bloody daft. The NCSE has heavyweight scientific credentials and backing -- see National Center for Science Education#Staff and supporters. So yes, the viewpoint they are expressing is most certainly the majority viewpoint of the scientific community. Your claim that "the sole purpose was to attack anyone with religious agenda" is fallacious as the NCSE has a long history of working with religious scientists, a point that is clearly noted in Ronald Numbers' The Creationists (Expanded Ed, p354), and includes prominent Theistic evolutionists (e.g. Keith B. Miller & Kenneth R. Miller) among its supporters. As to your claim that it has "many people working and writing for it who have no credentials" -- I would suggest that you substantiate this claim with sources. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 16:26, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Now that is not being polite at all. I guess this is the time to mention that in the above you voted to delete the article and only reason you wanted to keep it is to make a coatrack out of the article and that was the only reason that you changed you vote from delete to weak keep. here So who is being daft here? The LEDE of their article states that their purpose is teaching of evolutionary biology and opposes the teaching of religious views in science classes in America's public schools. So obviously they will have a bias towards the subject of this article. Clear case of coatrack and it is ESPECIALLY not acceptable in the case of BLP! Wikidās ॐ 16:50, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

BTW one is not obliged to support any statements of the talk pages with sources, but National Center for Science Education is absolutely not a neutral source. It is obvious. Your suggestion that it is most certainly the majority viewpoint of the scientific community is unfounded and in itself not neutral. The whole point is WP:N. How neutral are you if you wanted to delete this entry and only agreed to keep it so that you can use it as a coatrack for specific education related attacks? Wikidās ॐ 16:58, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Wikidas' comments on this talk page are certainly making me question his or her agenda concerning this article. Regardless, he or she has failed to present any kind of convincing case for substantial overhaul of the article. ClovisPt (talk) 17:12, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

I made myself painfully clear. WP:BLP requires good references and neutral presentation of the same. Neutral means that all sides are presented and no undue weight is given. The only requirement and underlining principle of BLP is 'do not harm'. Thank you for asking. I am working and specialising in BLPs of current Gaudiya Vaishnavas and have particular interest in this guy, since I know him well and know well how this book was created. So... can we agree to be neutral? Wikidās ॐ 17:53, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Wikidas: given your gross misrepresentations of NCSE & of WP:BLP and your gross violation of WP:AGF, I have nothing more to say to you on the subject here. RNCSE, and the articles contained in it, are WP:RS. If you want to dispute that, then take it to WP:RS/N. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 18:02, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

I assume good faith where I see no evidence otherwise. I guess WP:BLP explains it all. Maybe you should wait for him to die to make sure you can make article less neutral? Yes the publication can be taken as RS but only with complementing other views as in WP:YESPOV. Please do not try to intimidate me with personal attacks, you well know the policies on this. Wikidās ॐ 18:25, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

I was recently looking up the findings in the Bay of Cambay. In the article I found [http://www.spiritofmaat.com/announce/oldcity.htm 9,500-Year-Old City Found Underwater Off India], it uses statements made by Cremo, Graham Hancock, and Linda Moulton Howe. The statements made by Cremo would seem laughable if he had no scientific credibility. So I looked up to see who he was, as well as the other people sited in the article. I often read the discussion/talk sections of the Wikipedia page on a topic to see if there is debate about something. After reading this "debate" I believe that the Wikipedia article on Cremo should focus more on his theories and works rather than examining his criticisms. The article gives the reader a negative point of view about Cremo. Even if Cremo is totally wrong in every way, it is important to know who he is and what he has done. So readers can gain more knowledge (isn't that the point of Wikipedia?). If he has been proven wrong or has "crazy" theories, it will reveal itself. However controversial someones theories or achievements are, it is impossible to understand them if your source of information is opinionated. This is the problem with a user submitted source. Or most sources for that matter. I am very skeptical and arrive upon opinions based on many different sources. I am becoming more familiar with media blackouts of certain topics, which makes finding alternate news EXTREMELY important. Obvious advice for people looking for info: -Use many sources and form your own opinions

Obvious advice for people having a web argument: -Opinions are like a**holes, everyone has one and they all stink. You don't want to smell his any more than he wants to smell yours.

I hope my writings have had a positive impact on the Michael Cremo wikipedia article. If not, Sorry!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Odlallo (talk • contribs) 06:44, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

www.spiritofmaat.com does not appear to be a WP:RS, and its article appears to exaggerate the certainty of the dating of the find. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 07:47, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Use of reviews

We should not be using reviews from the author's website. I used Google to try to find the original, and Google Scholar only came up with this rtf article which shows how the site has misused reviews in the past: [1] Dougweller (talk) 18:53, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Interesting -- however statement "the challenging nature of the work was appreciated by some of the academics" is factual. Do you have any other way to keep it neutral as is the requirement for BLP? Wikid^as© 21:56, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Dubious

I have added some statement that just records the fact that 'the nature' of challenge was appreciated by 'some' academics. If no other sources found to expand it. Wikid^as© 22:01, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

And I have removed the statement as misrepresenting the source -- which declares the book's evidence to be "far from" convincing and "more historical and sociological than scientific". Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 05:46, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Education

Can anyone find and list Cremo's scientific degrees/education/qualifications? There is a short blurb on his education, but it doesn't specify which degrees he holds. --Pstanton (talk) 20:51, 4 December 2009 (UTC)