Talk:The Holocaust

'Hear-Say in subarticle 3.2.3'

In the subarticle 3.2.3 'South and East Slavs' there is hear-say statement of a former Nazi official which is taken as true, or at least trying to imply something for a fact.

Quote: Hitler's high plenipotentiary in South East Europe, Hermann Neubacher, later wrote: "When leading Ustaše state that one million Orthodox Serbs (including babies, children, women and old men) were slaughtered, this in my opinion is a boasting exaggeration. End quote:

The objective data is at the end of the subsection.

Quote: The USHMM reports between 56,000 and 97,000 persons were killed at the Jasenovac concentration camp[73][74] However, Yad Vashem reports 600,000 deaths at Jasenovac.[75]This is not the truth. You can see on Yad Vashem website in the article about Jasenovac (http://www1.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Microsoft%20Word%20-%206358.pdf) that it is quote: many thousands were murdered, most of them Serbians" The person who wrote this section is a lyer End quote:

Instead of the quote from Neubacher I suggest putting a list of WW2 casualties in Yugoslavia of all nationalities not just one.

The following link contains one such list. It is an online version of the paper number 69 in the quote list. Table 5 of the paper has a column named 'victims in camps' which should indicate victims in concentration camps. http://www.hic.hr/books/manipulations/p06.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mljk (talk • contribs) 23:52, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

What I don't get about the definition

I'm not sure whether the definition is consistent throughout the article. I've always been puzzled by the Nazis' "puppet states" and their role in the genocide. If you measure only the Jews killed by Nazi Germany, the figure is only 5 million: you need to include Croatia, Romania and the other allies of Germany to get it up to 6 million. In the introduction to the article, it mentions only Nazi Germany and not its allies in Europe, but other parts of the article are written to include all the Nazis' allies.

What I don't get is why you never hear the Croatian genocide of Serbs as part of the Holocaust. Say that there is a Jew and a Serb in a Croatian death camp in WWII: is the Jew part of the Holocaust and the Serb not? The Jews killed in Croatia are always included in the Holocaust figures. Seems odd. Epa101 (talk) 22:56, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

You might find War II persecution of Serbs of interest. Stellarkid (talk) 04:34, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

eichmann "6 million" citation

Something wrong with this, the way it is worded: "The figure most commonly used is the six million cited by Adolf Eichmann, a senior SS official."

Actually Eichmann cited 5 million victims. According to the Eichmann article, the quote is: "I will leap into my grave laughing because the feeling that I have five million human beings on my conscience is for me a source of extraordinary satisfaction." Eichmann countered the claim saying that he was referring only to "enemies of the Reich".Markeilz (talk) 03:46, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

I have added a footnote, and changed the wording to "attributed to". Crum375 (talk) 05:09, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Good footnote. Thanks for clearing that up.Markeilz (talk) 22:45, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

The number of six millions can be readily drawn from the various more detailed estimations, as any number of average that falls between 5.5 and 6.5 millions could be rounded towards 6 millions. Is there any reliable source about how the number actually became prominent in public discourse? I feel a bit uncomfortable about attributing this to a Nazi, but I wouldn't exclude the possibility either.  Cs32en  23:51, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

About killing of Kiev Jews near Ivangorod

There is only one Ivangorod in Ukraine and it is a village. This article in Ukrainian about Ukrainian Ivangorod: http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%86%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B4_(%D0%A5%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%96%D0%B2%D1%81%D1%8C%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BE%D0%BD

While in the article "The Holocaust" Ivangorod is linked to the town Ivangorod in Russia on the border with Estonia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pamerast (talk • contribs) 00:57, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

No russian mention

where was the mention of the holocaust at the same time in Russia? Does anybody know that russia is responsible for more deaths than the Nazi Holocaust. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Doe4155 (talk • contribs) 19:33, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

First of all, one has to discriminate between those who die prematurely (from various causes) under Stalin and those who were murdered by Nazi.

When we leave a realm of political journalism and step into the realm of science, it is hard to find a support for such a claim. The quotes below demonstrate that point:

"During the Soviet period the main causes of excess deaths (which were mainly in 1918-23, 1931-34 and 1941-45) were not repression but war, famine and disease"(Soviet Repression Statistics: Some Comments. Author(s): Michael Ellman. Source: Europe-Asia Studies, Vol. 54, No. 7 (Nov., 2002), pp. 1151-1172)

"The nature of Soviet repression and mass killing was clearly far more complex than normally assumed. Mass purposive killings in terms of executions were probably in the order of one million and probably as large as the total number of recorded deaths in the Gulag. In this narrowest category of purposefully caused deaths, the situation is exactly the opposite to that generally accepted. Hitler caused the murder of at least 5 million innocent people largely, it would appear, because he did not like Jews and communists. Stalin by contrast can be charged with causing the purposive death of something in the order of a million people. Furthermore the purposive deaths caused by Hitler fit more closely into the category of 'murder', while those caused by Stalin fit more closely the category of 'execution'. Stalin undoubtedly caused many innocent people to be executed, but it seems likely that he thought many of them guilty of crimes against the state and felt that the execution of others would act as a deterent to the guilty. He signed the papers and insisted on documentation. Hitler, by contrast, wanted to be rid of the Jews and communists simply because they were Jews and communists. He was not concerned about making any pretence at legality. He was careful not to sign anything on this matter and was equally insistent on no documentation."(The Scale and Nature of German and Soviet Repression and Mass Killings, 1930-45 Author(s): Stephen Wheatcroft Source: Europe-Asia Studies, Vol. 48, No. 8 (Dec., 1996), pp. 1319-1353)

"The Third Reich's four-year extermination machine, stopped only by military defeat, still overshadows any other calamity, even when numbers of victims are the main concern."(Amir Weiner. Source: Journal of Interdisciplinary History, Vol. 32, No. 3 (Winter, 2002), pp. 450-452)

My conclusion is that the USSR has not been mentioned in a Holocaust's context quite correctly.--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:07, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

That is the nature of political citations, particularly from the victims viewpoint, facts are much more accurate that the emotional conclusions as to why. Stalinist Russia prisons did have some similarities to Axis practices, but not the primary one of political unification via focusing citizens on common prejudices. Russia was foremost purging the population of political dissidents after unification...though cultural rumor or prejudice was often the quick ignorant yardstick for political assessment. Russia did not make nearly the use of prisoners as military industrial assets as Germany. Russia impersonally killed many, but without the intent of dehumanizing its victims at a personal level.

Truthfully Hitler showed remarkable laxity if he was personally out to exterminate Jews etc as his primary goal. Keep in mind these were unarmed civilians and Hitler had 5 years of open aggression to finish the job. The given citations indicate Hitler paid remarkable little personal attention to the prisoner camp and extermination process, instead delegating more to subordinates than projects he really had interest in. Sure genocide would be the long term result of Hitler's policies -- but first aims?

No the citation facts support that Hitler was worse than genocidal -- in that Hitler was foremost exploiting all the prejudices of German and Axis citizens to promote the mindless political unity of a mob. The citations also indicate that Hitler Germany made extensive use of prison camp members as super cheap, expendable labor and experimental subjects. Until near the end of the war, the prisons were a German industrial asset. That "asset without rights" was the real dehumanization of prisoners, not death nor starvation. But obviously the politically captured supply of prisoners often exceeded demand and "storage" leading to quick executions. If the Jews or Poles had become extinct, the given citations mention other groups Hitler could eventually name to fill his camps with cheap labor and experimental subjects.

The conclusions and anecdotal statements about needing cheaper ways to exterminate are obvious crap in light of the soldiers and materials needed to confine prisoners during the search for "cheaper ways of execution". That German extermination plans failed due to being too cheap or out of money is emotionally appealing but not backed by fact. Ask the Chinese about the 50 cent bullet versus confinement for life or even a week. The gas showers were really naked military experiments in chemical warfare, not the cheapest way to kill Jews.

Bottom line - holocaust prisons were more profitable to Nazi politics and the Nazi military industrial and science complexes than simple executions. Look at your own citations.

65.26.139.168 (talk) 12:31, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Red Holocaust

In connection with the above section, I have a question. Is anybody interested to join the ongoing discussion in the Mass killings under Communist regimes talk page? The question is if the term "Red Holocaust" (mass killing of civilians by Communists) is notable enough to be included into the article, or that would be a trivialisation of the Holocaust?
--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:13, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Wrong pictures

1st photo MOST Likely shows nazi concentration cmps victims after allied forces liberated them in 1945. Most of the wictims gathered (there) died from starvation - not by systemtic killing. Most of that wictims were non jewish prisoners - as jews were exterminated earlier.

2. There is one photo named Warsaw Uprasing. Warsaw Uprasing burst in 1944 while Warsaw ghetto uprising burst in 1943 - one year earlier. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.163.38.12 (talk) 16:54, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Wrong pictures:

1st photo MOST Likely shows nazi concentration cmps victims after allied forces liberated them in 1945. Most of the wictims gathered (there) died from starvation - not by systemtic killing. Most of that wictims were non jewish prisoners - as jews were exterminated earlier.

2. There is one photo named Warsaw Uprasing. Warsaw Uprasing burst in 1944 while Warsaw ghetto uprising burst in 1943 - one year earlier. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.163.38.12 (talk) 16:58, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Good point. Warsaw uprising and Warsaw Ghetto uprising were two quite different events.--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:05, 31 January 2010 (UTC)