Talk:The Holocaust/Archive 12

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Archive 5

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Archive 10

Deaths

Under DEATH TOLL, it says about 6million Jews. Then under the heading The Tragic Outcome it says 5.1-6million Jews. I've always had a problem with this number, I know it's hard to find an accurate number, but that is a million people difference. But I am sure there will never be a way to find a more acurate quote, but should they both not read 5.1-6million??

What about the Non-Jewish poles?? Who were they? I'm not trying to sound like a smart ass, but what if a person was a Non Jewish Pole? would he be counted as one of the 80,000–200,000 Freemasons or one of the 1.8 –1.9 million non-Jewish Poles..or both??

Why is there two polls? The DEATH TOLL and THE TRAGIC OUTCOME..The numbers don't match up, and the Masons and communists are not mentioned in the TRAGIC OUTCOME.. ~Tydamann

Vandalism and nonsense on this page!!!=

THIS REQUIRES MAXIMAL ATTENTION: THE PAGE HAS BEEN VANDALIZED. COULD A REGISTERED USER PLEASE CHANGE THE ARTICLE TO THE LATEST VERSION BEFORE THE ACT OF VANDALISM?

Please sign your posts. What is the vandalism? What do you object to? Just comment on the proposed change below. Repentance 20:19, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Someone seems to have erased the whole page and insted replaced it with the message "it never happened". Which is an opinion of course. I'd revert it back, but the problem is, I'm not registered and I'd have to wait a while until I could revert it.

So could someone fix it, please? 65.101.84.72 22:31, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Some people added nonsense to this page not too long ago. I'm glad that it has been removed. There's a huge gap in the efficiency section. I think that it must be fixed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.46.185.29 (talk • contribs) 06:51, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I merged both he the vadalisum articles. --Homer slips. 05:46, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm merging some similar section on this talk page to remove the plethora of hedding in the index box. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Homer slips. (talk • contribs) 05:14, 31 December 2006 (UTC).

There have been some significant edits to this article in the last two days, including this image. That appear to be censoring the contents of this article, that this has occured at time when other editors are knowingly not going to be active is also a concern. I also note that the article has been populated with the same map a number of times, and a large number of new external links have been added some of which fail WP:EL. Then to say that consensus on the changes to the article that has always attracted alot of discussion has been reached within hours from basically new editors is extremely troubling. As an assumption of good faith I'm not going to make any further reverts to the article but only draw attention to occurance of these edits. Gnangarra 12:12, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

There is now one, not 3 of that repeated map. --Homer slips. 20:11, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

It tought it was best to move and srink the stiffs, but not remove them. --Homer slips. 20:11, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Merged in the bit about bad edits. --Homer slips. 02:03, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Those 3 Smithsonian maps with dodgey coppyright licences.

I will start replacing them with ones with better coppy wright tags tonight. Mass deportations is the first to get replaced. Sorce- the maps in question. Licence- my own coppys and so no coppywright- Action startd at 05.00 U.T.C. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Homer slips. (talk • contribs) 19:42, 19 December 2006 (UTC). --Homer slips. 19:43, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I've started! --Homer slips. 06:43, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I've finnished! --Homer slips. 04:33, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

"mentally disabled"?

this term does not appropriately or correctly describe mentally ill or "retarded" "mentally challenged" people, i only put the last two in quotations because i only know mentally disabled is incorrect but can't procure an accurate term.

Martin Luther's Specific Call for Violence Against Jews

Noticably absent is documentation here of Martin Luther's (famous German leader of the Reformation) specific written call for harsh persecution of the Jewish people, including that their synagogues and schools be set on fire, prayerbooks destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes razed, and property and money confiscated. Luther argued that Jews should be shown no mercy or kindness, should have no legal protection, and that these "poisonous envenomed worms" should be drafted into forced labor or expelled for all time. It is widely regarded by scholars as a significant work in the development of modern anti-Semitism. Four centuries later, the Nazis used quotations from this pamphlet, which was cited by the publisher of the Nazi newspaper Der Stürmer during the Nuremberg trials, to justify the Final Solution. Here is the Wikipedia link "Martin Luther's Jews and Their Lies".

Adolf Hitler wrote of his admiration of Martin Luther in Mein Kampf, and Krystalnacht occurred on Luthertag (Luther Day), Martin Luther's birthday.

I am new user here, so I will leave it to others to decide if this can be included in the Holocaust article. Repentance 18:59, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

The "Religious hatred and racism" section looks like the appropriate place. Any comments? 72.235.15.131 23:58, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Martin Luther's comments were based upon the persecution that Christians had suffered at the hands of Jews in the early Church. Luther states, "Jerusalem was destroyed over 1400 years ago, and at that time we Christians were harassed and persecuted by the Jews throughout the world for about 300 years… During that time they held us captive and killed us… So we are even at fault for not avenging all this innocent blood of our Lord and of the Christians which they shed for 300 years after the destruction of Jerusalem, and the blood of the children they have shed since then… We are at fault in not slaying them." Luther observed that Jewish hatred of Christianity had not abated and was calling for Christians to take action in order to avoid another persecution like the early church suffered. Luther's remarks should be viewed within that light and understood that they are not representative of Lutheran Churches even in the 20th century. Jtpaladin 00:08, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

What Martin Luther may have believed and what is true are not the same thing. I must object to the tone of your post, which treats the claim that Jews persecuted Christians for more than 300 years as true. You are perpetuating anti-Semetic propaganda. -- Donald Albury 11:19, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Donald, what Martin Luther believed is what he thought was true. That's why he wrote it. It wasn't a piece of stuff he made up. As for the facts regarding persecution of Christians by Jews of the early church, may I refer you here: [1].

Also, "With their churches and houses in flames around them, the Christians were indiscriminately massacred, some by the Persian soldiery and many more by the Jews." -- "A History of the Crusades" by Steven Runciman.
And, "Jews in the near East, north Africa and Spain threw their support behind advancing Muslim Arab armies."-- "The Position of Jews in Arab lands following the rise of Islam" by Merlin Swartz. This part of history has been swept under the carpet so that's why people like you are surprised when they find out that these persecutions did happen. Additionally, I'm not even including the Jewish Revolts that happened here: [2].

So, regardless of your opinion of my "tone", persecutions of Christians by Jewish authorities did happen and it was upon this fact that Luther wrote his complaints. Your Christophobic comments are sorely unncessary in a time when Christians and Jews are working together to keep Israel independent. Jtpaladin 15:11, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

The first sentence of your comment was, "Martin Luther's comments were based upon the persecution that Christians had suffered at the hands of Jews in the early Church." This was not given as a quote or a statement of Luther's beliefs. This was stated as a fact. If that is not what you meant, then please edit your comment to correct it. -- Donald Albury 17:50, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

You have provided nothing to support Luther's hyperbolic claims. Your two quotations have little relevance, and second one says nothing about persecution at all. The first refers to the struggle between the Christian/Byzantine empire and the Zoroastrian/Persian empire for control of the Levant. Jews were in the middle, and thought they'd be better of under Zoroastrian rule - after all it was Cyrus who'd freed them from Babylon. This is not a case of religious persecution, but a massacre in wartime, in which Christian communities were identified as supporters of the Byzantines. That's doesn't make it any less of a crime of course, but it's a pretty poor basis on which to support Luther's claims. Anyway, Luther's booklet has a Wikipedia page of its own. This page can't cover the whole history of antisemitism. Paul B 00:03, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Unless you consider the New Testament as recorded proof of such persecution and the link that I gave above (here it is again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitos_War) and (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians), feel free to remain in denial of this tragic part of history. Either way, this did happen but it is the Christian Churches, i.e. Evangelical Churches that are the biggest supporters of Judaism and Israel so I rather look forward rather than backwards. Jtpaladin 13:54, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

The New Testament records proof that Jews persecuted Christians for 300 years? Wow, I don't remember any of that from my Bible study classes. -- Donald Albury 15:55, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Donald, are you purposely being difficult? If you would merely do some basic research you will find when persecution of Christians ended. What makes you think the Pharisees stopped their persecution of Christians after the last letter of St. Paul? In fact, persecution of Christians by entire Jewish communities continued into the Byzantine Empire with Jewish zealots aiding Persians and Muslim armies at every chance to kill Christians. How you can not know this shows that you haven't wasted any time actually reading Wikipedia, rather spent your time making comments. Please take my advice and read up before further comment. Jtpaladin 14:31, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Your comments have almost no relation to the topic of this article - the Holocaust. If you wish to discuss the actions of Jewish communities during the Byzantine-Persian wars do so on one of the relevant pages. Paul B 16:26, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Paul, if you actually took the time to read from the top of this thread, you would see that I was merely responding to the person who originally suggested that Luther's book should be included as some support to those that perpetrated the Holocaust. My response is that the book was written in a particular context which was no longer the case and that it did nothing to enhance the article. And here's a simple truth: Not one single Christian was involved in the extermination of the Jewish people in the Holocaust. Anyone that participated, did so either "under orders", i.e. Nazis and fellow camp inmates or did so because of hatred towards Jews. You can't be a Christian and kill innocent people. Jtpaladin 17:47, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I so wish that were true. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 17:56, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Jpgordon, I'm referring to somebody who really lives his life as a true Christian. Not someone who calls himself a Christian and then goes out and does things that violate his faith.

I think the history of Christianity rather contradicts your claim. The point was that you are meandering way off topic. The central question in this section is whether the history of antisemitism - Christian, Aryanist or whatever - should be discussed as part of the cause of the Holocaust. Luther's text is one such much-cited example, already cited in WP articles on Hitler and antisemitism. Defending Luther's rantings doesn't address the issue of its influence on "eliminationism" or relevance to this article. Paul B 00:05, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Paul, regarding Christians, see my response to jpgordon above. As for my comments in this topic, I tried to make a case as to why Luther wrote what he wrote and how irrelevant it was in context to the Holocaust (at least the aspect of the Holocaust that applied to non-Jews because obviously this article includes Christians and others who died in the Holocaust as well). Now, if you're looking for a better place to cite that article, it's better suited to something like what someone above said and that is, the "Religious hatred and racism" article. Jtpaladin 17:04, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

The upper side

There is no proper section dedicated to the history of the rescues, that is, how and when the first steps and measures were taken to save whom and which of the victims of the holocaust and, in general, the Nazi control of the government. It gives little to no enviroment to the fact that heroes existed that did their best to save the dying.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.210.185.213 (talk • contribs) I agree. --Homer slips. 06:36, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I have added the XXth convoy. --Homer slips. 05:50, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Is this article Biast and NOT from a Neutral Point of View?

The articles states the holocaust as a PROVEN FACT, when it isn't, so far there isn't a single shred of SCIENTIFIC evidence that it actually happened, there are lots of revisionism studies that have proven the arguments of "witnesses" wrong.

Besides the FACT that in the countries that the actual fisical evidence (bodies, ashes, chemicals, facilities, etc.) could be found, have laws that forbid research on the topic. Most of the historical revisionists that conducted research on the topic have faced persecution, and even jail. That in my opinion means something is not exactly like how mainstream media wants people to believe it is.

It also depicts the Nazi regime as the encarnation of evil on the earth, and that's not a neutral point of view either. Or is it that every single german was a spawn of the devil?? =/

I say that the article should have the {hoax} and {NPOV} tags until proven wrong.

--201.210.185.213 22:30, 24 October 2006 (UTC)-Chaos-

"the article should have the {hoax} and {NPOV} tags until proven wrong"? Freudian slip much? I don't believe that you exist, and your user page should have the {hoax} and {NPOV} tags until proven otherwise. Gzuckier 14:52, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

am German. am not spawn of the devil. doesnt change the fact that your argument is stupid. (sorry dont know how to sign) -deguerra

The argument that eyewitness testimony of a huge number of witnesses, whether Jew, Gypsy, Homosexual, Communist, German Nazi, German non-Nazi, Pole, Ukrainian, Russian, American, or British, plus a ton of corroborative physical evidence is probably more or less correct is "stupid"? Anyway, most Jews today don't consider most Germans today to be "spawn of the devil". Ironically, most Jews have forgiven the Germans for the Holocaust more than some Germans have forgiven the Jews for the Holocaust. Gzuckier 19:37, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Guten tag, Deguerra amd Gzuckier.

Gzuckier, I believe that Deguerra was deriding 201's argument, not your response. Given the context, the derision seems to be towards the anonymous comments. Justin Eiler 19:43, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Jutin. Yes Gzuckier, I was indeed attacking not your comments, but those of the original poster. The argument that eyewitness testimony is FALSE is stupid, not to mention that of physical edvidence. Similarly, the "spawn of the devil" comment was only pointed at the anonymous users last sentence. I realize very much that most Jews have forgiven us. I am unsure as to HOW we need to forgive them. I know that we have not yet necessarily forgiven ourselves, and believe that to be a good thing. we need not spend our lives feeling guilty, but we should work hard to prevent it from ever occuring again. -deugerra

Well put. Sorry for the misidentification. Gzuckier 15:37, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

no worries mate :D on the bright side, our little argument seems to have shut up the original poster :D Deguerra 15:02, 23 November 2006 (UTC)deugerra

This subject heading is the most unbelievable piece of dreck I have seen in a long time. There is a vast testimony of survivors, of American and Russian troops who liberated camps, of German documents speaking of the horrors, and not the least, of survivors who either were there in the death camps themselves, or who having fled to Russian or other sanctuaries, lost their entire families. The revisionist credo of trying to turn truth into a lie is nothing new. I know a survivor who somehow managed to live through 5 years in Auschwitz. He still cannot fathom how he managed to survive through wiles and skills. The utter horror is how the German military and industrial complex could use their organizational and technical skills for this horrific undertaking. It is a nightmare for good Germans to know of this and to wonder "what did my grandfather do in the war?". It is hoped that the German experience, including the suffering of German people as the war was lost, can live as a lesson of what happens when people are enthralled by symbols of nationalism and ignore tyranny and evil.Szimonsays 22:36, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

The idea that the holocaust did not take place is not tenable. There is a more viable question about whether the holocaust page, and accounts of the holocaust in general, should deal so exclusively with the attempted genocide of the jews. Once again let me immediately accept that the attempted genocide was real, it did happen and it certainly merits its own page. Sadly it is an undeniable fact that some, a very very few, jews did collaborate with the Nazis to redirect their murderous energies elsewhere for a time. Yes this was done under the most extraordinary pressure - we are talking about a time when, according to survivors, the living envied the dead - but it was done and for that reason if for no other the holocaust should not be allowed to become a Jewish only 'possession' (for want of a better word) {unsigned|208.51.44.100}}

I beleve this artical is neutal and unbias. --Homer slips. 01:37, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

There is too much by the way of evidence in ruined biuldings, witness testomny and filmed news-reel footage for this to be a hoax. The Holocaust was real! As for Aktion T-4 and the Porajmos, this just hepls prove that the Nazis were generaly genosidal by nature to ethnic and social groups they opposed. The other old agument, that it was a Zionist plot to get a homeland in the Middel-east is also false, since gatting 6,000,000 of there own killed to achive this goal would be absured; anyhow, the disabeled and Gipsys were slaughtered to, but they have no homeland. Holocaust denile carrys littel factual wieght in reality!

--Homer slips. 06:34, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Read this proof-

I would like to put a {fact}, {biast} and {Hoax} tag on the idea of Holocaust denile once and for all. It's now in a nut-shell, I rest my case!

--Homer slips. 01:37, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I did'nt find any proofs there that gas chambers existed, except rumours. But hearsay is'nt proof. Everybody heard about Nessy, but there are no proofs. The situation with gas chambers is the same. Wartime propaganda is obsolete now. Anyone who learn alitle abut this matter doesn't believe in tales about 6,000,000, gas chambers, human soap and so on. Please, respect people little bit more--Igor "the Otter" 08:04, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

What were you looking for, testimony from people who were gassed to death? Gzuckier 15:15, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

No. Blueprints of gas chamber will be enough.--Igor "the Otter" 19:03, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, I don't have them on me, you'll have to do a little more leg work than you're apparently used to doing to find them, but lucky you, "The evolution of the Auschwitz concentration camp is capture in the hundreds of architectural plans the Germans forgot to destroy and the Poles and the Soviets preserved in archives in Oswiecim and Moscow. A unique historical source, these materials are part of the archive of the Zentralbauleitung der Waffen SS und Polizei, Auschwitz O/S" (from Auschwitz, by Deborah Dwork and Robert Jan Van Pelt, chapter "Plates; Blueprints of Genocide", which has, as you might guess from the chapter title, black and white plates of 20 of the most interesting design documents reproduced for you, should your desire for truth not be so strong as to induce you to go check the originals).

Also, try Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp by Israel Gutman, Michael Berenbaum, and Yisrael Gutman, where you can see the historical diagrams of such nifty items as the Topf double-muffle crematory furnace (page 193, photo on page 192) (patented, mind you; another source of contemporary diagrams for you being the German patent office), a diagram of Auschwitz crematorium I drawn Dec. 9, 1940 on the basis of Topf blueprint D, Nov. 30, 1940 (page 194), a diagram of the modification to that crematorium drawn Feb. 3, 1941 (page 195), etc. etc. And that's just two books, readily available. Really, next time, you should do your homework before asking, we're kinda busy, or go ask at the Wikipedia reference desk.

For instance, if you would have looked at the Judge's summation in the Irving vs. Lipstadt and Penguin trial, just the section pertaining to "Documentary evidence relating to the design and construction of the chambers", you can read a nice summary of the contents of that archive:

7.58 The Defendants assert that there exist contemporaneous documentary records which, on detailed examination, evidence the construction of gas chambers at Auschwitz. The most important Auschwitz archive that survived the war was that of the Central Construction Office at Auschwitz. The main archives of the camp Kommandantur had been destroyed by the Germans before they evacuated the camp in January 1945. The Construction Office was 300 yards away and through an oversight was left intact.

7.59 The first and most significant body of such evidence is the blue print material, which consists of a series of architectural drawings which depict the adaptation of crematoria 2 and 3 and the construction of crematoria 4 and 5. None of these drawings refers overtly to any part of the buildings being designed or intended to serve as gas chambers whether for fumigation or extermination purposes. In particular the drawings for Leichenkeller (morgue) 1 in crematorium 2 make no provision for ducts or chimneys by means of which Zyklon-B pellets might be inserted through the roof. However, van Pelt sought to illustrate by means of detailed analyses of certain features of the drawings that it reasonable to infer that certain chambers were designed to function as gas chambers.

7.60 The principal feature identified by van Pelt is the redesign of the double door to the supposed gas chamber in crematorium 2. When in 1942 the drawings were executed for the adaptation of this crematorium, this door in common with others in the same building was designed to open inwards. Careful scrutiny of the drawings reveals, however, that the drawing of the inward- opening door has been scratched out. A fresh drawing dated 19 December 1942 was made by Jakob, the chief of the drawing office, who rarely undertook drawings himself. It provides for the door to the supposed gas chamber to open outwards. There is no apparent reason for this. To van Pelt the obvious explanation is that the chamber was to be used as a gas chamber. If the door opened inwards, it would be impossible to open it after the administration of the gas because of the crush of corpses against the inside or the door of those who struggled to get out when they realised what was happening to them.

7.61 The next feature identified by van Pelt relates to the entrance to crematorium 2 and the means of which access was gained to the morgue below. In its original design, the entrance was situated to one side of the building. Inside the entrance there was a slide down which corpses would be tipped to reach the level of the morgue. But the drawing shows that this design was changed in late 1942 so as to move the entrance to the crematorium to the street side of the building. At the same time a new stairway to the morgue was designed to replace the pre-existing slide. Van Pelt pointed out that the original design apparently contemplated that only corpses would need to be transported down to the morgue. The new design on the other hand is consistent with a wish to enable people transported to Auschwitz to proceed from the railway station through the new entrance, then to walk downstairs into what is alleged to have been the undressing room and thence into the supposed gas chamber. The stairway has been redesigned in such a way that it would be extremely awkward to carry corpses down to the morgue on stretchers. Van Pelt concludes that the object of the redesign of the stairway was to enable living people to walk downstairs rather than for corpses to be carried down.

7.62 The drawings further provide for the ventilation of the supposed gas chamber in crematorium 2. Van Pelt infers that the purpose of the system for extracting air was to extract poisonous air and so speed up the removal of the corpses to the incinerators.

7.63 Crematoria 4 and 5 were new buildings. The initial drawings are dated August 1942, not long after the visit paid to the camp by Himmler, which the Defendants say marks the inception of the accelerated extermination programme. According to van Pelt the design of these crematoria incorporated undressing rooms (although not so designated on the drawings) and morgues which were to serve as gas chambers. The drawings of the morgues make provision for several windows measuring 30 x 40cms. The size of these windows corresponds with the size of windows referred to elsewhere in construction documents as being required to be gas proof. The windows were to be above eye level. Van Pelt draws the inference that the purpose of these windows was to enable Zyklon-B pellets to be inserted through them into the building (a process which was observed by Sonderkommando Dragon, as mentioned above).

7.64 Van Pelt agreed that the drawings for crematoria 4 and 5 show a drainage system which appears to link up with the camp sewage system. He disagreed with Irving's suggestion that this would have been highly dangerous because large quantities of liquid cyanide would have found their way into the sewage system. Van Pelt claims that the gas would evaporate rather than turn into liquid.

7.65 In addition to the architectural drawings, there are other documents which, according to the Defendants, lend support to their contention that there were gas chambers at the camp which were used for genocidal purposes. I shall not itemise all the documents identified by the Defendants as belonging in this category. They include a patent application for multi-muffle ovens made by Topf. Although the patent application does not in fact relate to the ovens supplied to Auschwitz in 1942/3, it is said that the principle is the same. The two features of the application on which the Defendants focus are, firstly, the method of employing fat corpses to speed promote the rate at which corpses can be burned and, secondly, the claim that no fuel is required after the initial two day pre-heating period, no more fuel will be required because of the amount of heat generated by the burning corpses. Van Pelt noted that both these features are reflected in the account given by Tauber of the way in which the corpses were incinerated.

7.66 Another allegedly incriminating document is the record of a meeting held on 19 August 1942 between members of the Auschwitz construction office and a representative of the engineers Topf to discuss the construction of four crematoria. The note of the meeting refers to the construction of triple oven incinerators near the "Badenanstalten fur Sonderaktionen" ("bath-houses for special actions": the words are in quotations in the original).

7.67 In a different category is a report dated 16 December 1942 made by a corporal named Kinna, which made reference to an order that, in order to releive the camp, limited people, idiots, cripples and sick people must be removed from the same by liquidation. Kinna stated that the implementation of this order was difficult because the Poles, unlike the Jews, must die a natural death.

7.68 The Defendants relies on a letter dated 29 January 1943 from Bischoff, Chief of Central Construction Managemnent at the camp, to SS Brigadefuhrer Kammler in which there is reference to a Vergasungskammer (gas chamber or cellar). There are also documents from February 1943 referring to the provision of gastight doors and windows. In a letter dated 31 March 1943 Bischoff presses for the delivery of a gastight door with a spyhole of 8mm glass, with a rubber seal and metal fitting. There is a timesheet of a construction worker which makes reference to fitting gastight windows to crematorium 4. Van Pelt pointed to a letter dated 6 March 1943 from Auschwitz to the Topf company which contemplated the use of hot air from the ventilators for the incinerators to pre-heat the Leichenkeller 1. Why, he asked, heat a morgue, which should be kept cool. Answering his own question, he claimed that Zyklon-B evaporates more quickly in high temperatures, so the killing process would be speeded up. (Irving answered that there is nothing sinister about heating the morgue: it was a requirement of good building practice in relation to civilian morgues).

7.69 Finally under this head the Defendants rely on a letter dated 28 June 1943 from Bischoff to Kammler (the authenticity of which Irving challenges) setting figures for the incineration capacity of the five crematoria, according to which their total capacity is 4756 people in every 24 hours. The Defendants' case is that this capacity was at that time deemed to be necessary to burn the bodies of the Jews who were to be brought to Auschwitz to be gassed. Basing themselves on the evidence of sonderkommandos such as Tauber, the Defendants say further that the rate of incineration was broadly in line with the estimate in the letter of 28 June 1943. The Defendants suggest that the apparent urgency of the installation of the ovens, together with their huge capacity which, according to van Pelt, was far in excess of what could possibly have been required to cope with future typhus epidemics, reflects the policy adopted following Himmler's visit to the camp in July 1942.

Although you didn't ask, the judge's summary contains, of course, other corroborating sections, i.e. drawings of camp structures by inmates and architectural drawings, which match the blueprints, as well as the eyewitness testimony:

7.24 Among the sketches Olere produced were architectural drawings of Crematorium 3 which show the basement level with the underground dressing room and the gas chamber, and the ground floor with the incineration room the ovens and the chimney. Arrows indicate the functional relationship of the rooms. They show how people were directed to the gas chamber; how bodies were moved to the corpse elevator; how they were taken to the incineration room and how coke was brought to the ovens in the incineration room.

7.25 In his drawings of Crematorium 3 and its environs Olere depicted people filing into the compound from the road and moving into the dressing room. A sketch from 1946 shows the dressing room, the benches and the hooks for clothes. Another sketch shows the Sonderkommandos collecting gold teeth and hair from the women. One of the wire mesh columns is visible in the background. Van Pelt commented that the information in these drawings is corroborated by the testimony of Tauber (see below). He also pointed out that none of the drawings could have been made on the basis of published material as there was not any available at the time.

7.26 Other sketches by Olere show Bunker 2, which was a peasant cottage converted into a gas chamber. Van Pelt noted that the undressing barrack is correctly positioned vis-à-vis the cottage. He pointed out the small window with the heavy wooden shutter through which Zyklon-B was introduced. Another sketch portrays the murder of women and children with Crematorium 5 in the background. Van Pelt claimed the representation of the crematorium to be architecturally correct save for minor inaccuracies which can be ascribed to the fact it was drawn from memory.

7.27 Van Pelt noted that Olere's sketches are corroborated by plans that the Russians found in the Central Construction Office, save that Olere depicts vertical wire mesh columns in the gas chamber (through which the Defendants allege that Zyklon-B was inserted) which are not to be found in the original architectural plans for the site. Olere's arrangement has the mesh columns attached to the west side of the first and fifth structural columns and on the east side of the third and seventh structural columns in the gas chamber.

And of course, the judgement contains over 300 pages of similar summary of the photographs, eyewitness accounts from staff and inmates, evidence from Nuremberg and other trials, etc., both that presented by David "Don't-call-me-biased-or-I'll-sue-you" Irving and that presented by the defendants, all of which together were enough to convince the trial judge, as follows:

13.71 I have to confess that, in common I suspect with most other people, I had supposed that the evidence of mass extermination of Jews in the gas chambers at Auschwitz was compelling. I have, however, set aside this preconception when assessing the evidence adduced by the parties in these proceedings.

The documentary evidence

13.75 Vulnerable though the individual categories of evidence may be to criticisms of the kind mentioned in the preceding paragraphs, it appears to me that the cumulative effect of the documentary evidence for the genocidal operation of gas chambers at Auschwitz is considerable.

13.76 The nature of the redesign in 1942 of crematorium 2 appears to me, for the reasons summarised in paragraph 7.59 to 7.63 above, to constitute powerful evidence that the morgue was to be used to gas live human beings who had been able to walk downstairs. Few and far between though they may be, documents do exist for which it is difficult to find an innocent explanation. I have in mind for example the minute of the meeting of 19 August 1942 (paragraph 7.66 above), which refers to Badenanstalten fur Sonderaktionen (“bath-houses for special actions”) and the so-called Kinna report (paragraph 7.67 above). As to Muller’s letter about the incineration capacity of the ovens (see paragraphs 7.69 and 7.106 above), it does not seem to me that, despite its unusual features, a dispassionate historian would dismiss it out of hand, as did Irving, as a forgery. Van Pelt believed it to be genuine. He pointed out that there are two copies in different archives (in Domburg and in Moscow, where it has been since 1945). It was used at the trial of Hoss in 1948.If it had been forged before 1948, it would have been unlikely that the capacity would have been given as 4,756 corpses per day since that is a lower figure than the figures published by the Russians and the Poles at the end of the war. I accept the reasoning of van Pelt. If the Muller document is authentic, it is further cogent evidence of genocidal gassing because the capacity to which Muller refers cannot have been needed to incinerate those who succumbed to disease. Finally, there is the scientific evidence gathered by the Polish Central Commission in 1945-7 (paragraph 7.2 above) and the evidence of the Markiewicz report (see paragraphs 7.73 to 7.74 above).

Conclusion

13.91 Having considered the various arguments advanced by Irving to assail the effect of the convergent evidence relied on by the Defendants, it is my conclusion that no objective, fair-minded historian would have serious cause to doubt that there were gas chambers at Auschwitz and that they were operated on a substantial scale to kill hundreds of thousands of Jews.

By the way, I hope you're not going to do anything, shall we say, rash with this information.Gzuckier 22:51, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, it's obvoise on the news reels lots of people had died there. They were starving wrecks unlike the guards, who were just thin. Typhoid, nah, that would kill every one, so it's either death by neglect, slavory or murdur by some means. --Homer slips. 12:17, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

May be historian must not doubt that, but I'm not historian so I'm doubt much because it is silly to believe official point of view which lied many times. Human soap, for example. Look also at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leuchter_Report Is Leuchter an expert or not? Those are his words that there are no proves. I think he is an expert.--Igor "the Otter" 17:02, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Lies about alleged lies are a rather standard holocaust denier technique, and the soap one is perhaps the most classic -- and the most easily punctured. The source of the noise is that one single British POW testified that he had heard rumors of soap making at Auschwitz: German civilians would joke among themselves and threaten prisoners with being turned into soap. That's it: one piece of testimony about a rumor. The judgement at Nuremburg was, After cremation the ashes were used for fertilizer, and in some instances attempts were made to utilize the fat from the bodies of the victims in the commercial manufacture of soap. On the other hand, it's recently been proven that the Nazis indeed did make soap from human remains at the Danzig Anatomic Institute[3]. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 17:18, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Nizkor project are proven liars. So they can not be trusted in any case. Even I caught them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Holocaust_denial ("This articcle is,nt neutral") Igor is me. I think it is not kind of sockpuppet.--Igor "the Otter" 17:44, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

(No, no sockpuppet, just you before you had a registered account.) So even if you don't trust Nizkor, you can still go to the primary sources they cite. Here, is this better? http://www9.sbs.com.au/theworldnews/region.php?id=131784&region=3 --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 17:53, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

If somebody's remains were used for such experiments, that does'nt proves that somebody was killed SPECIALLY TO MAKING SOAP from him like it was presented. Like conveyer-like industry. This is VERY different.--Igor "the Otter" 20:48, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Why, yes, it is. Entirely different. And if someone had actually claimed somewhere or somehow that people were killed for the purpose of turning them into soap, you'd have a real strong point. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 03:36, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

So it wasn't "crime against humanity", right? That is about desecration, not about atrocities. Do You want to tell me that propaganda didn't even claimed that there was industial turning of people in to soap? Come on. I can point more specific example of propaganda's lie against nazis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre I mean part "Trials". Soviet goverment hanged seven german officers for one's own atrocity.--Igor "the Otter" 08:23, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Did propaganda claim that? Please show us where -- I've only heard of it as rumor of rumor, not of any propaganda claims; perhaps you're confusing this with the WWI Belgian babies. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 08:36, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

OK, those were false rumours which propaganda did not debunked. Will be acceptable such? Those rumours are that I call the tales about human soap.--Igor "the Otter" 09:57, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Not good enough. You claimed you wanted blueprints to convince you; I told you where the blueprints were stored, what books you could see pictures of the blueprints in, descriptions of what was depicted in the blueprints, and what other evidence matched the blueprints, and your response? You immediately dropped the subject and got on the soap thing. So, turnabout is fairplay; I want to see the documentary evidence of "the Jews" claiming the Nazis made soap out humans. Not to mention evidence of "the Jews" claiming the soap was a key part of the Holocaust which, if disproved makes the whole thing come apart. Otherwise, you're just here trying to screw up factual articles for some screwy purpose of your own that only God understands. Gzuckier 19:46, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I didn't seen any link on the blueprint still. You shown documents of the suit Irving lost. There is written about "blueprints and sketches". I can draw sketches too. But he also won some such suits. So what? IHR offered award for such blueprints. And award remains untaken, as I heard. Seems like there are no such blueprints. If it is wrong, I'll believe You that chambers existed. Fair?--Igor "the Otter" 20:12, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh, you want blueprints? OK! "The evolution of the Auschwitz concentration camp is capture in the hundreds of architectural plans the Germans forgot to destroy and the Poles and the Soviets preserved in archives in Oswiecim and Moscow. A unique historical source, these materials are part of the archive of the Zentralbauleitung der Waffen SS und Polizei, Auschwitz O/S" (from Auschwitz, by Deborah Dwork and Robert Jan Van Pelt, chapter "Plates; Blueprints of Genocide", which has, as you might guess from the chapter title, black and white plates of 20 of the most interesting design documents reproduced for you, should your desire for truth not be so strong as to induce you to go check the originals).

Also, try Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp by Israel Gutman, Michael Berenbaum, and Yisrael Gutman, where you can see the historical diagrams of such nifty items as the Topf double-muffle crematory furnace (page 193, photo on page 192) (patented, mind you; another source of contemporary diagrams for you being the German patent office), a diagram of Auschwitz crematorium I drawn Dec. 9, 1940 on the basis of Topf blueprint D, Nov. 30, 1940 (page 194), a diagram of the modification to that crematorium drawn Feb. 3, 1941 (page 195), etc. etc. And that's just two books, readily available. Really, next time, you should do your homework before asking, we're kinda busy, or go ask at the Wikipedia reference desk.

For instance, if you would have looked at the Judge's summation in the Irving vs. Lipstadt and Penguin trial, just the section pertaining to "Documentary evidence relating to the design and construction of the chambers", you can read a nice summary of the contents of that archive: