Talk:Gordon Brown

More claims that Brown was abusive to his staff

Now we have another Labour Party insider - Lance Price - also reporting that Gordon Brown has abused staff:

• 'Psychologically flawed? That doesn't come close', The Independent, 11 February 2009
• Brown's 'reign of terror' at Downing Street, The Independent, 11 February 2009
• Brown's 'reign of terror' at Downing Street revealed in sensational new book, Daily Mail, 11 February 2009

From UK Press Association: "Claims in book over life at No 10":

Although he does not stand up stories of Mr Brown throwing mobile phones around the office, Mr Price quotes one insider as saying his behaviour towards junior staff was "unforgivable". And he adds: "Shouting at staff, jabbing an angry finger, throwing down papers, even kicking the furniture are far more common." One witness is quoted as saying: "It isn't a very nice place to work. However bad it sometimes looks from the outside, it's far, far worse from the inside. And the atmosphere is very much set by him."

--Mais oui! (talk) 05:31, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Before we get into this again, we should probably remind ourselves of what BLP actually says rather than simply bringing our own opinions of what we wish it said. Regarding well-known people it says,

“ If an allegation or incident is notable, relevant, and well-documented by reliable published sources, it belongs in the article—even if it's negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it. If it is not documented by reliable third-party sources, leave it out. ”

Further, what used to be called WP:RS says, "Material from mainstream news organizations is welcomed, particularly the high-quality end of the market." Whether some users like it or not, that includes the Daily Mail, which has been sneered at in the past. -Rrius (talk) 05:50, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Gordon Brown criticised by anti-bullying chief, Telegraph 21 Feb. How many more do you need? This behavior is atypical of a modern head of state. It is well-documented and notable. To ignore it, reveals bias in the editing consensus behind this article. --66.66.187.132 (talk) 05:28, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Birth Place

 Done

Do we know where Gordon was born - Govan or Giffnock?

"Gordon Brown was born in Giffnock, Scotland, in 1951" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/features/3632355/Family-detective.html

"JAMES GORDON BROWN was born in Giffnock, Glasgow on 20 February 1951. " http://www.independent.co.uk/news/i-could-still-be-prime-minister-says-brown-1137937.html

(Msrasnw (talk) 13:58, 12 February 2010 (UTC))

"Civil service chief warned Gordon Brown over abusive treatment of staff"

• "Sir Gus O'Donnell, the cabinet secretary, became so alarmed by the prime minister's behaviour that he launched his own investigations when he received reports of Brown's bullying of staff. O'Donnell then gave the prime minister a stern "pep talk" and ordered him to change his behaviour.", The Observer, 21 February 2010

Please note that Stephen Pound MP (Labour) confirmed on Sky News on 20 February 2010 that Gus O'Donnell had warned Gordon Brown about his behaviour. --Mais oui! (talk) 08:37, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Have you got a link, I can find this on twit twit twoo, but not on sky? Off2riorob (talk) 16:38, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Are you just posting links here Mais Oui ? what is your desired addition? Was it an official recorded warning? Who were the staff that made the reports to him? What was the outcome? This is titillating partisan speculation without foundation in any detailed reporting and is unworthy of inclusion in the Biography of a living person. If there is one single person that has stood up and made a report then there will clearly be a case to add the report and the outcome, however this is clearly not the case at all. Off2riorob (talk) 15:38, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Tories' poll lead cut to six points It is the smallest gap in the series of polls since December 2008 Mr Brown, who has used recent media appearances to try to soften his remote image, has seen his personal rating improve greatly - although it is still negative overall and While 64% do not trust Prime Minister Gordon Brown and Chancellor Alistair Darling, only a tiny fraction less - 63% - doubt Mr Cameron and shadow chancellor George Osborne. there is a lot of current support also around for Brown. Number 10 has commented...and described the claims as "malicious allegations that are totally without foundation".

• Perhaps we could add a section about the conservative attempts to attack brown as a way to win the election? There was recently public backlash after the previous attack that people thought excessive and looking at the reporting and poll results there is continued rejection of the idea that personally attacking Brown is the wrong way to win support, in fact, the excessive personal attacks appear to be working in the opposite way, support for Brown in the public polls and his party appear to be growing. From the link An Election that looked like a shoo-in for the ‘Cameroons’ now seems to be a genuine contest, with talk of a hung parliament. The mood among Tory MPs is anxious to the point of feverish. In private, they complain that there is no central message. ..This lack of a central message from the conservatives is what has resulted in the idea that simply attacking the leader of the other side (Brown)will win public support, this if it continues will be notable enough and verifyable for a section.Read more: Off2riorob (talk) 16:33, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I previously commented before Rawnsley's book was published. We now have something more concrete to work with. A carefully worded "Journalist Andrew Rawnsley says that..." could be included, but what would we complete this with? We should be careful with this, I think, but a short specific and well supported allegation could be included.

There's also a second allegation on bbc news about the calls to National Bullying Helpline. It's extraordinary timing for a charity only a couple of years old, launched in the Houses of Parliament, and whose five patrons include Conservative MP Ann Widdecombe and Conservative local councilor Mary O'Connor.[1] Anyway, that's all original research, obviously, so shouldn't go in the article. But it is quite interesting in my opinion. --h2g2bob (talk) 19:30, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

• Let Rawley publicize his own book, we want names not allegations, such allegations require actual people who it happened to, until they stand up and confirm the claims it is imo a BLP issue to add it at all.Off2riorob (talk) 20:25, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
  • As for the bbc link..,Hello, is that the bullying helpline, yes..ah thanks, I work for Gordon Brown and he is a terrible bully...well thanks for calling, whats your name..ow I would rather not leave my name, bye. Off2riorob (talk) 20:20, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

There were claims that brown had a bit of a temper, brown denied it and said I am no shrinking violet... Off2riorob (talk) 20:29, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Gus O'Donnell has said today that he has never warned Gordon Brown about his behaviour. From the telegraph here .."The Cabinet Secretary Gus O'Donnell would like to make clear that he has never raised concerns with the Prime Minister about him acting in a bullying or intimidatory manner in relation to No 10 staff, let alone giving him any sort of verbal warning," he said. Off2riorob (talk) 22:09, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

The "unnamed sources" criticism is getting old. Rawnsley has written that each of these allegations comes from a source who was actually present. What's more, a denial is no more credible than an allegation from an unnamed source, and did not include allegations he personally believed if he thought the evidence insufficient. Your attempts above to paint this as somehow part of a Tory smear campaign is utterly bewildering. Rawnsley is by no means a Tory, and his sources are Labour, including Brownites, and civil servants. At this point, the bullying should absolutely be included because there are now so many sources supporting it that there is no question of BLP anymore. There is enough verification now that including all of it would be cumulative and overdoing it. The only question is how to word it the denials. Do we get specific? If so, how many examples do we give? We have to include Brown's admission to tantrums and trowing papers, right? -Rrius (talk) 22:44, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi, if you feel it is worthy of a report and adding to the article, do so, be bold, or post your desired addition here for discussion, imo none of it is worthy of inclusion but feel free to add as many of the claims and rebuttals as you feel is warranted. Off2riorob (talk) 22:48, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

• In the book of rowsly there was a few claims that brown had attacked his staff, no one came forward except to deny the claims, and Pratt of the bully hot line said people had called her and she had email! It was reported that brown was warned about his behavior by O'dowell, he denied this the next day, some member of staff said it was a pleasure to work for him , Pratt had comments on her web site from David cameron and other conservatives, one of the board of the bully line resigned saying confidentiality had been breached, Pratt said she would not resign at least not yet, and the people who are not as stupid as the press think, saw through the whole biased attempt to smear brown and browns popularity rose. Brown said he once threw a newspaper. Off2riorob (talk) 22:56, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
  • That is opinion, speculation, and a little anti-Cameron smear. Let's stick to facts, shall we? -Rrius (talk) 23:00, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

More unsupported claims are required? All of the personal attacks on brown and his public support is rising. If you want to write something to include about these claims of bully boy, I would nominate it for DYK or front page comment for you. Off2riorob (talk) 23:08, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

All of the patrons of the bully helpline has resigned now..cite.even widdicombe Off2riorob (talk) 03:08, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

It's exasperating even to attempt an understanding of what you are talking about. There are credible claims of bullying, and even Brown admits he has a temper that has induced him to throw paper about. You cannot deny that there are reliable sources for that. The effect on Brown's popularity is another question entirely, although you have failed to produce any evidence that one has affected the other. You simply throw the two facts out there and let post hoc, ergo propter hoc do the rest. If you are done with weird rants about Cameron and bully boys and opinion polls and DYK, can we get on with discussions about improving the article? It appears you are letting political leanings get in the way here, but it is hard to tell since your peculiar view of BLP would lead you at least part way down this path in any event. -Rrius (talk) 03:26, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

I am happy to discuss with you and open to consider additions beneficial to the article. Off2riorob (talk) 03:36, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Okay then, the allegations of temper tantrums and the like are clearly noteworthy and are amply verified by reliable sources. How should we add this information in a balanced way? -Rrius (talk) 06:43, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Brown was rumored to have notable temper tantrums when asked about it brown said I am no shrinking violet ! Off2riorob (talk) 11:27, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Gordon Brown 'named in bullying email'

• Gordon Brown has been personally named in an email of complaint to an anti-bullying charity, it was claimed yesterday, Daily Telegraph, 23 February 2010-Mais oui! (talk) 10:00, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

"from your link from Pratt. "I have even received an email from someone who is alleging that they have [an] issue with Gordon Brown also, but we will be addressing that confidentially and separately and I will be obviously referring that to Number 10,” she said, She later said: “I have received an email. I cannot discuss the detail. It does name Gordon Brown but I'm not able to go into that.“It's someone who has got an issue and I need to look into that" further.”

I sent an email saying that it was not gordon brown but it was the other guy wot dun it. Pratt again, I have had an email,,yea, please feel free to write a comment and we can send it to Guy Fawlkes blog where it has more chance of inclusion. Cameron, and Clegg said there must be an inquiry (they would wouldn't they) and Geoff Hoon said he would like to be prime minister, pratt said her job was safe, the public looked on in shock and awe. Off2riorob (talk) 11:13, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

• Bullying charity faces complaints..from there "There has also been a withdrawal of support by the Nasuwt teachers' union - which once donated to the charity. It said it "would be most unlikely in future to donate to or advise any member to use a service which had behaved in this way".The union's general secretary, Chris Keates, said there was "something unsavoury and certainly unjust about releasing information into the public domain which cannot be challenged or verified".http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8528075.stm

"Twittle tattle" said Prescott. The Gordon Brown I know is no bully http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/feb/23/gordon-brown-no-bully ... BullyHotline reports on Pratt.Off2riorob (talk) 13:02, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Allegations of bullying section

I started a section on the allegations of bullying which I originally started at Premiership of Gordon Brown but which I think could be more relevant here. Any thoughts anybody? TheRetroGuy (talk) 15:24, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

What confirmed reported named complaints have you got? If it is only press and partisan commentary, imo it should not be included at all. The Tangerine dream complaint from below perhaps could go in the comedy section. Off2riorob (talk) 15:28, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

I see your point I suppose. Nobody's actually come forward yet (as far as we know) to confirm these allegations so I won't fret too much about it being removed again. As for the tangerine episode, well . . . nice to see we can rely on the Tory press to report all the important news stories. :) On another note, as we're (possibly) coming to the end of Gordon Brown's premiership the time may have come to consolidate the Premiership of Gordon Brown article. I've pretty much written it singlehandedly over the past year or so, including stuff I thought might be important at the time, but there's probably a lot of stuff that could be chopped out or rewritten. I might put it up for peer review or something or mention it at WP:UK Politics. Cheers TheRetroGuy (talk) 15:52, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks (replied there) Off2riorob (talk) 19:02, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Some Brown nonsense

This may come up - so I thought I'd pre-empt it. We have a Daily Telegraph article headlined - "Gordon Brown accused of throwing a tangerine - Gordon Brown has been accused of breaking a machine by hurling a tangerine into it after losing his temper during a visit to a factory." - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/gordon-brown/7297028/Gordon-Brown-accused-of-throwing-a-tangerine.html. This was also reported in the Sun and even animated by a Hong Kong based media organization - http://blogs.ft.com/westminster/2010/02/gordon-the-fighting-puppet-returns-armed-with-tangerines/ . This is a HOAX - perpetrated by Robert Popper - see http://www.robertpopper.com/2010/02/27/gordon-brown-calls-lady-a-citric-idiot/ 87.194.131.188 (talk) 20:28, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Redirects

I noticed some odd-looking redirects to Gordon Brown: for instance: The great ditherer, Bottler Brown and Non-election. I assume these are intended to be malicious rather than helpful, unless I've missed the point! Should these sort of things be deleted and is there an easy way to do it? Thanks. Bluewave (talk) 14:48, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Well spotted, lets have a look at them and see how they came to be created. Here they are. Off2riorob (talk) 14:50, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Non-election could be ok as a redirect as there's a section on that at Premiership of Gordon Brown, but the others are definitely malicious. TheRetroGuy (talk) 15:22, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Titles, honours and awards

It's not "Mr.", "Dr.", or "Rt Hon", its "Mr", "Dr" and "Rt Hon."

I can't edit it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.21.229.21 (talk) 05:13, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Misleading Statement

The article states: "since becoming Chancellor, inflation has been kept under control, consistently below 5%,[33] but unemployment increased to 7.9%"

The source provided shows that unemployment only started to increase (very steeply) in Summer 2007 - at this point Brown was no longer chancellor but prime minister. It seems a little disingenuous to suggest that it is a hallmark of Brown's chancellorship, given that it doesn't apply from 1997-2007.

For obvious reasons I don't have authorisation to edit the actual page, maybe someone could take a look at it. AlexTartu (talk) 12:19, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Foreign Policy and relationship with Israel

The article ought to make mention of some prominent interactions with other states. The European Union / Lisbon treaty is covered well. We ought to have a few sentences on the relationship with Israel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Beganlocal (talk • contribs) 22:41, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Not the Zionist connection, this is his biography, if it is of value anywhere it would sit better at the premiership of Brown article. Off2riorob (talk) 22:55, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

No, not Zionism. Zionism concerns the establishment of a homeland for the Jewish people. The issue of the British Passports, the issue of magistrates being asked to issue arrest warrants for Israeli diplomats, and the recent conflict in the middle east - the Lebanon situation. I think it is worthy of a mention. I feel it is important for our leaders to support the only democracy in the middle east.

Beganlocal (talk) 22:59, 16 March 2010 (UTC)