Talk:Irish Free State

Governance

Unfortunately you are wrong, Mav, but it is an easy mistake to make. The constitutional twists and turns of 1921-22 are complicated and sometimes hard to follow.

Basically, the Anglo-Irish Treaty received two ratifications, by Dáil Éireann in December 1921, validating it in the eyes of the Irish Republic, and in January 1922 by the House of Commons of Southern Ireland, validating it according to British constitutional theory which regarded the HofC of SI as the legitimate parliament of 'Southern Ireland' created under the British Government of Ireland Act,1920. It is this latter ratification that you are mixing up with the beginning of the third state, the Irish Free State. Before the new state could come into being, a new constitution needed to be drafted and passed by both Dáil Éireann (validating it in Irish constitutional theory) and by the British Parliament, validating it in British constitutional theory.

In the interregnum between the ratifications of Dec/Jan and the coming into force of the new state in December 1922, two governments existed governing nominally rival states. When de Valera resigned as President of the Republic. he was replaced by Arthur Griffith, who used a different title President of Dáil Éireann.Michael Collins was his Minister for Finance. Simultaneously Collins was made head of a Provisional Government nominally answerable to the HofC of SI. The Provisional Govt. then dissolved the HofC of SI and held elections for a new parliament ( I have a copy of that dissolution in front of me on my desk because I was writing about it only last night), which in republican theory became the Third Dáil (also a Constituent Assembly), in British theory was a new House of Commons of Southern Ireland, and which history to limit confusion also calls the Provisional Parliament. Both Griffith's and Collins' jobs merged in August 1922 when both men died, under W.T. Cosgrave.

The Irish Free State only formally came into being, superceding the Irish Republic and Southern Ireland (and their respective parliaments!) through

• the coming into force of the 1922 Constitution (which was passed by the Dáil while receiving the Royal Assent in the UK)
• the issuing of Letters Patent from the King creating the post of Governor-General of the Irish Free State and appointing Tim Healy to the post.

It is possible some history books or web pages somewhere have the wrong date; as you can see, it is extremely complicated and easily mixed up, but the correct answer is shown in, among other places, copies of the parliamentary debates of the period, where the Irish Free State is recorded as beginning in December 1922, not January 1922, which is when Collins formed the Provisional Government pending the creation of the IFS. Collins was usually described as President of the Provisional Government, while W.T. Cosgrave is generally described as the first IFS premier, with the formal title President of the Executive Council. Who said history is easy!!! (And I have to make my living researching this stuff!!!) :-) JTD 19:11 Jan 15, 2003 (UTC)

I've just come across the details of how the Provisional Government was to be constituted, as laid down in the Anglo-Irish Treaty. Section 17 stated:

By way of provisional arrangement for the administration of Southern Ireland during the interval which must elapse between the date hereof [December 1922] and the constitution of a Parliament and Government of the Irish Free State in accordance therewith, steps shall be taken torthwith for summoning a meeting of members of Parliament eelcted for constituencies in Southern Ireland since the passing of the Government of Ireland Act, 1920, and for constituting a provisional Government, and the British Government shall take the steps necessary to transfer to such provisional Government the powers and machinery requisite for the discharge of its duties, provided that every member of such provisional Government shall have signified in writing his or her acceptance of this instrument. But this arrangement shall not continue in force beyond the expiration of twelve months from the dats hereof.

Article 77 of the Transitory Provisions of the Constitution stated:

Every existing officer of the Provisional Government at the date of the coming into force of this Constitution (not being an officer whose servuces had been lent by the British Government to the Provisional Government) shall on that date be transferred to and become an officer of the Irish Free State (Saorstát Éireann), and shall hold office by a tenure corresponding to his previous tenure.

As my old latin my put it, QED. :-) JTD 20:20 Jan 15, 2003 (UTC)

Is it not putting it a bit strongly to say the Irish Republic was in de facto existence? Afterall, its write certainly did not run in all the island? I understand the point that is being made and certainly "South Ireland" was nowhere to be seen (though was the provisional government really the provisional government of that body as opposed to the provisional government of SE?). And, in any case "Southern Ireland" was not a state, but an integral part of the UK?

A.

Euro

Shouldn't the currency be changed to euro?

this is an article on a historic country that has not existed since 1937 Djegan 23:28, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

NPOV

I don't know anything about Ireland except what I have read in this encyclopedia, but I feel the authors use of italics and puctuation in sentences like "Recent calculations of Sinn Féin support in 1918, based on actual electoral battles at national and local level puts party support at in the region of 45–48%, less than a majority!" or "Had its original author, Michael Collins, survived, he might have been able to clarify its actual meaning..." and his or her parenthetical aside in the sentance "Furthermore, as one of the negotiators, Michael Collins, later admitted (and he was in a position to know, given his role in the independence war), the IRA at the time of the Truce was weeks..." introduces too much of an editorial nature into the article. While all these things might very well be true, the style seems slanted to me. - 133.6.156.69

Anonymous user. No one seems to actually disagree with you so instead of putting a NPOV warning at the start of the article please go and fix the wording yourself if you feel it should be more neutral. The motto on Wikipedia is Be bold! Also, please put your messages at the bottom of this talkpage instead of the top. Most users will look straight at the bottom so they might miss your messages. Iota 20:11, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Irish Free State at the British Empire Games

Why is this section 'a stub to be expanded'? Why is it even a section? Did something dramatic or of some importance happen there? What am I missing? --ClemMcGann 15:34, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Quite correct (we did not even win a single medal) - notwithstanding that it is not in the correct section at all.
Djegan 18:20, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Infobox: Future COA vs. Great Seal

In the infobox would anyone have any issues if I replaced the image of Coat of Arms of the Republic of Ireland with that of the image of the Great Seal of the Irish Free State. The coat of arms (particularily the harp) as it is currently presented in the infobox is more of a post 1937 Constitution of Ireland creation and is out of place and is not of a design existing at the time. Any opinions or discussions or dissent? Djegan 11:38, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea to me.

Lapsed Pacifist 19:16, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

100% approve. Great idea. Little did King George V think when he handed over the Great Seal of the Irish Free State to Patrick McGilligan, the Minister for External Affairs, at the Palace in I think 1931, that it would be gracing the pages of Wikipedia. It is absolutely the right image for the IFS infobox, as it was the formal seal of the IFS and didn't continue in use after 1937. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 19:26, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Incidents in the Irish Free State

Just wondering if there should not be at least an outline of the historical events that took place during this fifteen-year period, such as the ongoing murders and bank robberys by Sinn Fein/IRA (and early Fianna Fail); the Blueshirts; the Papal Congress; Ardnacrusha; the near-extermination of the IRA/Sinn Fein by De Valera; the Treaty Ports; the Econmic War with the UK; so on and so forth. Or would this be better written under the section "History of the Irish Free State"? Fergananim 15:04, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Poll: Ireland article titles

A poll is currently underway to determine the rendition of the island, nation-state, and disambiguation articles/titles for Ireland in Wp. Please weigh in! E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 08:32, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Wrong Flag

The Tricolour of the Irish Republic (and later Republic of Ireland) was not the flag of the Irish Free State, which was a Green Flag with the Union Flag in Canton with a Harp emblazoned, then the old Green Flag with an uncrowned harp as Eire before finally adopting the Tricolour as the official flag in 1948.

67th Tigers 16:19, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Northern Ireland opts out

If the Parliament of Northern Ireland had not made such a declaration, under Article 14 of the Treaty Northern Ireland, its Parliament and government would have continued in being but the Oireachtas would have had jurisdiction to legislate for Northern Ireland in matters not delegated to Northern Ireland under the Government of Ireland Act. This, of course, never came to pass.

The implication of this section seems to be that if Northern Ireland hadn't chosen to opt out, the Stormont Parliament would have remained in operation as a devolved entity within a 32 county Irish Free State. Was this just an accidental consequence of the Treaty or a rare deliberate attempt to offer northern Unionists some incentive to be in an all-Ireland state? Timrollpickering (talk) 23:49, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Timrollpickering - Re the above. Your reading is largely correct. It was a deliberate attempt (on paper at least) to make joining the IFS seem more palatable to Unionists. I don't think it's entirely fair to say it was a "rare" initiative. The Constitution of the Irish Free State was in several places intentionally drafted to assuage Unionist (both in the North and South) fears: e.g. Senate representation; the constitution's secularism; and PR voting. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 18:44, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Was it certain that Northern Ireland would opt out?

The article says it was always certain that NI would opt out.

NI did not opt out till after the Irish Civil war. How can anyone be certain what would have happened, if the civil war had not occurred?

It seems to me the sentence is conjecture, and the factual accuracy of the article would be improved by deleting it.

Tim2718281 (talk) 14:47, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Tim2718281 - Re the above. NI's parliament resolved to opt out of the IFS the day after the IFS was established (i.e. on 7 December 1922). The civil war had not ended by then. The majority of NI politicians and the NI government had always been consistent in their view they did not wish to be part of any new Irish state so I think the statement is fair and accurate. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 18:35, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Historical Background

What it offered was dominion status, as a state of the British Empire (now called the Commonwealth of Nations), equal to Canada, Newfoundland, Australia and New Zealand.

Surely it's not appropriate to equate the British Empire with the Commonwealth of Nations - the latter an entirely voluntary union of sovereign states, in complete contrast to the Empire. In any case, what relevance does it have to an article on an entity which was defunct long before the Commonwealth was born? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mousequakes (talk • contribs) 00:12, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

--

"The President of the Republic, Éamon de Valera, realised that a republic was not on offer. He decided not to be a part of the treaty delegation and so be tainted with what some more militant republicans were bound to call a "sellout". Yet his own proposals published in January 1922 fell far short of an autonomous all-Ireland republic."

Please don't assume this comment to be coming from a dyed-in-the-wool FF/DeV supporter but is it honest to leave this passage intact and considered to be an unbiased account of DeV's actions? I realise that there is general sentiment DeV was saving face by not volunteering himself for the negotiations but without any reference or footnote to back this up, it seems a little bit of a liberty to take for an unbiased piece. Gavreilly (talk) 16:34, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Its giving an unreferenced interpretation of Dev's motives. Over simplistic POV. RashersTierney (talk) 00:45, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

I've just re-read this article and it has far too much to say on the events leading up to the establishment of the IFS and relatively little on the 15 years of its existence. The article needs substantial work. RashersTierney (talk) 09:24, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Legacy and achievements of the Irish Free State

I would like to see a section on the lasting achievements of the Irish Free State, including for instance:

• 2RN in Dublin (later Radio Éireann), 1926
• The Electricity Supply Board, 1927
• The Currency Commission (later the Central Bank), 1927

etc. PeterClarke 16:57, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Poll on Ireland (xxx)

A poll is up at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Ireland_Collaboration/Poll on Ireland (xxx). This is a vote on what option or options could be added in the poll regarding the naming of the Ireland and Republic of Ireland and possibly the Ireland (disambiguation) pages. The order that the choices appear in the list has been generated randomly. Sanctions for canvassing, forum shopping, ballot stuffing, sock puppetry, meat puppetry will consist of a one-month ban, which will preclude the sanctioned from participating in the main poll which will take place after this one. Voting will end at 21:00 (UTC) of the evening of 1 July 2009 (that is 22:00 IST and BST). -- Evertype·✆ 18:15, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Refimprove template added

I've added this template as most sections of the article, other than "Northern Ireland opts out", have few or no references. Most of the material is factual and well documented, so this shouldn't be too difficult to fix. -- Pertusaria (talk) 08:45, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Poll on Ireland article names

Separate state?

Wasn't this just a different constitutional arrangement? The various republics of France (for instance) are referred to as "governments" rather than "states"--even the monarchies and empires are considered to be in continuity with the modern state of France--so why is the change from the Irish Free State to a republic described as the creation of a new state? 67.187.92.105 (talk) 16:07, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Can you please quote the section in question? RashersTierney (talk) 16:44, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

A note?

Should there be a note in the infobox describing the ambiguity of Ireland's head of state in between 1937 and 1949? While it's true the Irish Free State ceased to exist when the infobox says it did, the succeeding state being the Republic of Ireland might not be a total reflection of fact. -- MichiganCharms (talk) 06:49, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Realities of life?

This article is OK on the constitutional issues but doesn't say anything on the economy and demographics as seen in 1922 - 37. The IFS was set up to stop emigration but failed; most of the poor remained poor or became poorer. Images like

Population (in millions) from 1841 - 2006

could be added.86.43.186.42 (talk) 07:58, 13 June 2010 (UTC)