Talk:2010 FIFA World Cup

Vuvuzelas

I find a huge problem with Reference 114 linking to a hugely opinionated and biased opinion column. It is also untrue that the Vuvuzelas drown out the crowd as you can clearly hear chants and cheers by spectators during goals and exiting moments. Also in one match you could clearly hear the beat of a drum echoing around the stadium. Often the sound of the ball kicked is also heard so I think the "Others watching on television have complained that the ambient audio feed from the stadium only contains the sounds of the vuvuzelas and the natural sounds of people in the stands are drowned out.[114]" comment should be removed; along with the 114 reference. --Tanka8 (talk) 23:35, 19 June 2010 (UTC) Sorry it keeps changing as people edit. The reference is the one to the New York Post. "Valenti, Elio (13 June 2010). "Buzz off, vuvuzelas!". New York Post. http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/more_sports/buzz_off_vuvuzelas_FPa9BYlmlRWJMsF1W65cyJ?CMP=OTC-rss&FEEDNAME=." --Tanka8 (talk) 13:12, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Surely this: "Portuguese telecommunications company, Portugal Telecom, announced on 16 June an offer an alternative audio feed, which the vuvuzela sound is edited out, to the customers of its Pay-TV service called MEO. Per-Erik Jonsson, a sound technician at the national Swedish radio broadcasting company Sveriges Radio explained how to get rid of most of the noise by filter out B flat (233 Hz) and its overtones (466 Hz, 932 Hz and 1,165 Hz) with an equalizer. Another option to filter out the vuvuzelas is to create a counter resonance by listening through a lamellated tube, such as a plastic vacuum cleaner hose of a a length that matches the frequency.[126]" Should rather go under the Vuvuzela page and not the WC page? --Tanka8 (talk) 20:56, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

ENGLAND has been the only games so far where the fans drown out the vuvuzelaz.86.185.205.110 (talk) 21:36, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Not true as I could hear the South Africans singing Shosholoza and you can always hear the roar of the ground when there are goals or shots. --Tanka8 (talk) 23:23, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Knockout Section Grammar

The grammar in the knockout section is wrong.

• Not "runners-up of Group D" but "Group D runner-up"
• Not "winners of match D" but "Match D winner"

This rule should be applied to the rest of the tournament bracket contents... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.176.155.79 (talk) 17:59, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Is it worth dealing with for a couple of days? The spots will get filled in shortly. It's an artifact of WP:ENGVAR and how collective nouns are dealt with in American v. British English. —C.Fred (talk) 18:03, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I think it is worth dealing with. I would be willing to do it if the page was not locked. The issue is actually not grammar, but accuracy: there is one runner-up and one winner, not plural of both.70.176.155.79 (talk) 18:14, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Just looked at the main page view statistics. Today the page, so far, has had almost 300,000 views! I think it is definitely worth it to watch grammar.70.176.155.79 (talk) 18:14, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

But in British English a team is considered a plural thing (ie. Italy are the defending champions), so would that not trickle down to this also meaning that plural is correct as written. Chris1834 (talk) 21:01, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

No in English it should be "runner-up", singular. It's only plural runners-up (runner-ups in American English) if you're talking about more than one team:

"Mexico and Korea were runners-up in their group."

Why not use "First/second place in Group _"? –HTD (ITN: Where no updates but is stickied happens.) 03:06, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

I think this discussion has ended, i will change it to the first suggestion "Group D runner-up" and "Match D winner" mltinus (talk) 10:35, 24 June 2010 (UTC+2)

The knockout section grammar is wrong again.. there are not "winners" for a match, but a "winner." Can we please correct this? Thanks. 108.0.112.20 (talk) 09:02, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

It is not 'wrong', as you say. This page is written in British English, and, as mentioned above, a team, being an entity composed of multiple people, is plural. There's nothing to correct here, as it already is correct in the English we are using for this article. Brazil are the 'winners' of Group G, Portugal are the 'runners-up' and North Korea are the 'losers' of the group (for example). --Ericxpenner

Ah, OK. Thanks for pointing that out. But it might be good to point out somewhere that we are using British English? Otherwise it can definitely be confusing. Thanks. 69.63.84.51 (talk) 15:33, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Edit request, 24 June 2010

Would it be possible to add the tie-breaker explanation under each group standings box. For example, under group A, "Note: Mexico advances over South Africa based on goal differential", and in group C, "Note: United States wins group over England based on goals scored".

This is an interesting idea, I'll implement it to see how it looks. Rodface (talk) 17:48, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Order of the Matches Section

The other day I was very happy to see the matches section was moved to the top. But now I see this change has been reversed. I understand the reason for this but I feel the matches section should remain at the top during the world cup because many people check this page for updates on the match standings. Since this page represents a current event it should be as useful as it can be for people at this moment in time. Once the world cup is over the sections can be reordered in the way that Wikipedia likes it. Rukaribe (talk) 19:15, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

If you want to see the matches, go to the schedule page, which is linked directly from the top of the article. This article is about the entire tournament, not just the current matches. It is and should be kept in a chronological order. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:22, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with what I want or the proper rules. It has to do with being convenient for users to access the information they are looking for at that moment in time. You adjust to the users not the other way around. Rukaribe (talk) 20:29, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

How rich. First you place the newest comments at the top of this which is not the normal procedure. Second, the results are on the results page, which is where they should be, and that's clearly linked at the top of the article. So if "users" (I assume you mean casual viewers) want the information, it's just a click away. I don't see a problem. If a viewer is looking for something on Wikipedia, they are not expected to find it on the first page they reach, which is the basic principle behind disambiguation pages. We are not obloiged to work the way some mythical viewer's mind should work. This is an encyclopedia and shouldn't be confused with anything else, not the other way around. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:46, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

You are the classic problem with everything technologically related. You create what I call geekware. It caters to your narrow view of how things should be based on some geeky rules that are not intuitive at all. The fact is if you search 2010 world cup you come to this page and the information most sought at that moment should be made relevant because this is a current event. You can continue to use your flawed logic but it only makes you look arrogant while doing nothing productive but making you feel smart because you feel you understand how a wikipedia article should be structured. Rukaribe (talk) 13:44, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

the article become very long

The article is too long so it must be reduced so what do you think? Wael.Mogherbi (talk) 23:18, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

The Event effects section is entirely too long. It's a perfect candidate to be moved. This article should focus on the matches and their results. --Elliskev 23:27, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Same thing with the Venues section. --Elliskev 23:29, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

They should only be removed if the information is located elsewhere. You could make sub-articles. I think the matches sections are too long as they are all covered in longer, more detailed articles. Summaries are fine. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:48, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

I said moved, not removed. --Elliskev 23:51, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

I made some changes and made the article shorter than before Wael.Mogherbi (talk) 01:35, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. It's looking better than before. --Elliskev 01:41, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Would you two please stop. You are making massive undiscussed changes, leaving all sorts of mess behind. It is not acceptable to simply move entire sections, you do not create valid sub-article by simply cutting and pasting content wholesale, the sub-article needs a decent lede, and decent summary needs to be left here too. Most of these issues have been discussed above, and I am pretty sure nobdoy has ever agreed to removing basic info like results. It is impossible to track and repair changes if you don't record what you are doing, and you aren;t even leaving decent edit summaries. MickMacNee (talk) 01:46, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

I agreed to removing "basic info" like results, but I understand that I have extreme views on this. I appreciate the removal of List of qualified teams since they're all covered in the group stages. Not much else really changed. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:51, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

What are you talking about (MickMacNee)? Can you be specific about your objections? What should stay? --Elliskev 01:53, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm still trying to work out wtf you two have done this past hour. What a mess. Even basic stuff like formatting is now screwed, let alone whether there have been detrimental content changes. Just stop, or at least list what you've done. I'm am seriously considering undoing the whole lot. There's bold and there's reckless. This page is getting hundreds of views an hour, it needs to at least make sense at all times. MickMacNee (talk) 01:57, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Infact sod it, I'm off to bed, someone else can try and make sense of it. I'll come back tomorrow and see what drama has resulted. MickMacNee (talk) 02:01, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

(reset indent) Articles change. That's the nature of a wiki. I hope that I didn't do anything to worsen the article. I did my best to note what I was doing with every edit summary. If you find the changes to be detrimental, sorry. --Elliskev 02:07, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

You've noted some, but some don't make any sense without checking every single change, of which there have been many. Either of you acting singly tonight could probably have been handled, but both together? Madness. Articles change, but Wikipedia is not chaos. Anyway, it hardly matters now, as you are now edit warring over it [1], even though you clearly don't know what you are doing, and even though I pointed you to SUMMARY and LEDE, so I want no part of this now. We do not simply move information wholesale in a copy paste fashion, but I could care less. We'll see what disasters result I guess, what harm can come from having two copies of the same info, with unreadable navigation and zero context between the two. Why people are using the 2006 article as a guide, when it isn't even a GA, is beyond me. MickMacNee (talk) 02:22, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

2010 FIFA World Cup group stage is a perfect example of the disasters tonight. An orphan article which was simply copy-pasted out of here, it has no lede, no context, no summary here, nobody knows how or where to link to it, and it has freed up barely any space here that others haven't given better and more though out examples of how to present the same info in a smaller space. We must have the match results of the groups stages now spread out among four aticles at least. MickMacNee (talk) 02:25, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Group stage NEEDS to be brought back to the main article! Who took it out? --Marco Guzman, Jr (talk) 02:48, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Mick and Marco. I think too much was done too quickly and too bluntly with too little consensus. I honestly considered undoing many of the move/removal edits made in last few hours the because they were somewhat unreasonable, and would not oppose another editor doing such. For example, the qualifiers were deleted...they gotta stay (sorry, Walter; but they're the way they are like that in other WC articles). I agree with Mick that the group stage article probably shouldn't have been created in the manner that it was. If we need to pare down this article, we should do it with much more community imput, and maybe even wait 'til after the Cup is over. Purplebackpack89 02:50, 26 June 2010 (UTC)Also, I can't really trust you 'cuz you've got Uruguay beating the U.S. of A.

Good job Purplebackpack89! I like, and have grown used to, the format used for all other World Cup articles. There's no need for weird experiments at this point. I'm sure readers want to have information pertaining qualifiers and the group-stage handy as we are now set to move deep into the tournament. --Marco Guzman, Jr (talk) 03:52, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

On the list of qualifiers, it should be removed since the other World Cup articles don't have them anymore. TacoTank69 (talk) 04:01, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't have to be here if it's in a sub-article. It is one of the few things that was here that really doesn't make sense as a sub-article. I'm glad it was restored. I think I have successfully tagged the child article with a speedy. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:20, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

If that change was made in the other WC, it's my fault for not catching it. However, my point about messing with this article at its apex of viewing remains valid, and, for the good of the community, please hold off from making major unilateral changes 04:51, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, again, I apologize if I screwed anything up. I don't think anything I did was unreasonable or drastic. I'll just leave it alone. --Elliskev 14:27, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Event effects proposed split

I agree that this article is too long. However, I disagree start trimming it down by removing information from strategic sections such as qualification, group and knock-out stage. I think the "Event effects" section serves as an ideal starting point. To those concerned about article length: what do you think? --Marco Guzman, Jr (talk) 02:53, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree that event effects is somewhat unnecessary in this article. We should use the 2006 article as the base. I think people may be trying to act like this World Cup has been significantly worse than previous ones, when there really is little to support that (vuvuzelas aside). We shauld agree to a formal plan to determine what should be removed and put on other pages. Metallurgist (talk) 05:06, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree is as well. I browsed through the other WC pages and this one is by far the most 'negative' of all of them. Whether it is about attendance (which has been good). Even the social effects have been described negatively despite the fact that the media have been positive about the effects. So in short the Event effects needs to move out and secondly the Event effects needs lots of balance because right now it is biased. --Biscuit1018 (talk) 06:33, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

If we're going to pare down the article (and I still say wait 'til after the Cup ends to do so); we can move sections on event effects and controversies to their own articles. For example, the ball controversy alone could have its own article Purplebackpack89 14:31, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

I concur with Purpleback89's opinion that we should wait until the end of the World Cup to carry out any major overhauls. This suggestion of mine is targeting those who were constantly trying to erase the small summary below the bracket --in the knock-out stage section--for the sake of reducing article length. In addition, I'm not going to actively contribute myself since I've had always been an end-user to this sort of articles until the weird changes carried out by some editors prompted me to take a more active role. --Marco Guzman, Jr (talk) 17:16, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree that this article needs trimming, the 2006 FIFA World Cup had sections are split into new pages. Should have some consistency I think with all World Cup articles. GWST11 (talk) 18:50, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

I added a much-needed POV tag. Metallurgist (talk) 20:48, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

I mean honestly this whole section is abysmal and plagued with poor grammar and does not flow smoothly form paragraph to paragraph. It should be put in a separate article for those with scholarly pursuits --or searching for an indigestion. --Marco Guzman, Jr (talk) 03:22, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Well its split now, but why do we still have the section here? Metallurgist (talk) 18:54, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

26 billion people are expected to watch the WC, not 2 billion !

{{editsemiprotected}}

In the "Broadcasting" paragraph, it is said that the expected audience is more than 2 billion people (I quote: "Hundreds of broadcasters, representing about 70 countries, are transmitting the Cup to a cumulative TV audience that is predicted by FIFA officals to reach more than 2 billion people."). This is wrong, according to the referenced article (http://knightcenter.utexas.edu/blog/?q=pt-br/node/7444), it is expected to be more than 26 billion people.

Abdouni1 (talk) 17:54, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Quite simply, there are not 26 billion people in the world, in fact their are over 6 billion (See: World population). -- [[ axg ◉ talk ]] 18:05, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

That's 26 billion expected tune-ins ("expected cumulative television audience of over 26 billion"), as opposed to 2 billion individuals. --Illythr (talk) 18:08, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Illythy is right. For now, I've just changed this particular reference to "citation needed" until someone finds a reference that includes the total number of distinct viewers. -- Bob drobbs (talk) 18:18, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

This is exactly what I meant. The Wikipedia article says "Hundreds of broadcasters, representing about 70 countries, are transmitting the Cup to a cumulative TV audience that is predicted by FIFA officals to reach more than 2 billion people.". So no need for "citation needed" because it is the right article, just the wrong number.

Okay, I have done the deed. Might've chosen a clearer name for the section, though. :-) --Illythr (talk) 22:33, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

It's the same type of math in play as with the attendance: 2.5 million bodies have come through the gates to see games, but they aren't necessarily 2.5 million unique people. Likewise, adding up the TV audience worldwide for each game, the total across all games is expected to exceed 26 billion. —C.Fred (talk) 22:35, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

At first I saw this and also thought this was impossible, since there are only about 6 billion-ish people in the world. But if you read the link, it specifies "cumulative" viewers to be 26 billion. So why doesn't someone change it to say "nonunique" viewers as to not copy the website and infringe their copyright?Mistershnerples (talk) 20:51, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

I think he is including the galaxy as well. I heard that planet Fomalhaut b from the constellation of Piscis Austrinus are still trying to get broadcasting rights of the final over ESPN...Jamen Somasu (talk) 12:39, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

It should be stated that 26 billion tune-ins are expected. "26 billion people" is nonsense, because as someone before me stated only roughly 6 billion people live on the planet. The phrasing is just too inprecise/incorrect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.87.147.223 (talk) 21:35, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

If I could address the person in front of you I would, but since they're hiding behind you, please pass this message on. While there may be only six billion people in this world, and not every one of those people will have a means of accessing the television feed I believe that the number represents the cumulative number of viewers across the sixty-four matches. That means about 400 000 000 (400 million, or the combined populations of Canada and the US) per match. I suspect that fewer watch the group matches than the this stage, but I have no references for the per-game numbers. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:42, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

And to address the original question, 2 billion people around the world will likely watch part of a match. Only a small percentage of those will be watching at my house. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:46, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Move group stage to the bottom

It seem that the knockout stage is much more important and relevant now, and readers don't want to scroll through the entire group stage results to reach the knockout stage.

Can/should we move the current stages up and the group stage down?

-- Bob drobbs (talk) 18:10, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

No, I think the article should follow the chronological order of events. This isn't a sport website where the knockout stage raises to prominence once the group stage ends, it's an encyclopaedia entry where the group stage is as important a piece as the knockout stage. People can just click '10' in the table of contents to bring them directly to the knockout stage without having to scroll through anything. ---ericxpenner (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:09, 27 June 2010 (UTC).

Okay, you're right. The problem really is that the article and the lead section are so large that it makes the TOC and anything in it hard to find. -- Bob drobbs (talk) 04:36, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Goals scored on group stage

I don't know why is this key information about group matches completely taken out. I mean, it probably takes about 500 bytes but it's very much important for the article itself. As an end user myself I want to scroll up and quickly see which player scored during which game in a compact form that is readily accessible without the need to go to a sub-article. Was it Heinze or Hihuain who scored against Nigeria? How many goals did Klose score against Australia? When did he do it? At the beginning or was it the last goal in a clear rout? The information regarding scorers is even included in the template currently used --but goes unfilled. Seriously cut the crap about Vuvuzelas, AIDS, and whether or not the game are broadcasted in Singapore or not. Needless to say, I personally don't use the sub-articles because they are overkill as I have to sort out through a lot of stuff to find something that could be easily included in the main article itself. What's your take on this? --Marco Guzman, Jr (talk) 03:17, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Other languages

Are there any names of the World Cup in the rest of the official languages of South Africa, and could they be added to the infobox, like what has been done here or here? --Магьосник (talk) 03:42, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Good luck with that. There are 12 official languages in South Africa.216.165.126.12 (talk) 15:38, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

The languages are there now. I wonder if this is really necessary but if they stay, it would be a good idea to make them collapsable since the top of the template is now too crowded. --Tone 15:52, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

11, rather than 12, languages is what is mentioned in relation to the design of the ball, and 11 languages are now showing. But it would appear that all that it says in most of those is the name of the country and the year: that is not the name of the tournament. I'm not sure how this adds relevant knowledge to English speakers wanting to know about a football tournament. Is the Xhosa version of the name any more official than the Portuguese or Thai translations? Kevin McE (talk) 16:14, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Considering that this is the English Wikipedia I think it is fairly pointless to have all 12 languages in the infobox, when it is most likely that anyone reading this article will only be able to read the English and won't be able to understand any of the other 11, making them irrelevant Jenks24 (talk) 16:50, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

I suppose the logic of having all the african-language names of the cup is that the South Africa article also has them. I'll make them collapsible.Rodface (talk) 18:06, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Dont really oppose, but do the previous articles have native languages? Metallurgist (talk) 18:52, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes. Jamen Somasu (talk) 16:59, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Is there any source supporting that these names are official or used at all in those languages? I Googled 4 of them with quotes including the year and the only hits were our article and, for some but not all of them, freesporting.com or freesporting.us - apparently a private website not affiliated with FIFA or South Africa. The names were added by User:Jamen Somasu.[2] Earlier in the day he was unblocked after an indefinite block on 3 June for disruptive editing but I haven't exmined the details. The only WikiProject on his user page is for Costa Rica and the only mentioned languages are English and Spanish. I wonder whether he knows South African languages or just saw the names for the country in the infobox at South Africa, removed the word corresponding to "Republic" (but maybe not always the part corresponding to "of"?), and added "2010". I think it would be original research to smack a country name and year together in a bunch of languages and claim it's official tournament names. Do we even know whether those languages use Arabic numerals, a calendar where we are in 2010, and a grammar or practice allowing such country-year combinations? I have posted to Jamen Somasu but his contributions don't show edits at this time of day so I'm not objecting if somebody removes the languages now. PrimeHunter (talk) 04:59, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

I added every single translation of "South Africa 2010" (the most common way to refer to this tournament). My source was Wiki itself. It is here; it is just time-consuming to find it. Go to South Africa's language page and you'll see for yourself. Jamen Somasu (talk) 10:52, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

I have Googled all 11 names now. Several had our article as the only hit. The only with more than 7 hits were "South Africa 2010" (80,400,000 hits) and "Suid-Afrika 2010" (237,000 hits but 0 at the official FIFA or host country site). Based on the above I have removed the names from the infobox, except "South Africa 2010" which was there originally. PrimeHunter (talk) 13:17, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

I have stated where to find the sources. It isn't that hard. Don't be lazy. Go to South Africa's language section and see for yourself. If you have a problem with it, I have an admin that can help you. There are a lot more research tools other than google. Have you tried yahoo? search.com? etc? Jamen Somasu (talk) 16:59, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

It is pure assumption that a translation of "South Africa 2010" is an official, or even common, name for the tournament in those languages. Remove as OR. Kevin McE (talk) 18:24, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Jamen Somasu added them again and I have removed them again. The burden of evidence is on you and you have to show not only that this is the country names but also that the names together with 2010 actually refer to the 2010 World Cup in those languages. PrimeHunter (talk) 21:17, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

2010 FIFA Sokker-Wêreldbekertoernooi is the Afrikaans name. Considering one of the venues is in Afrikaans plurality (44%) Cape Town, it should be added, just like the other FIFA world cup articles. Major languages such as Afrikaans, Zulu and Xhosa are vital, but one must not just ´translate´ the English name to another language. Other languages have different ways of saying it. But Afrikaans is a certain name, so please add it. --90.215.150.172 (talk) 09:32, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

`

Lastley please refrain form saying all '11' languages, South Africa has 11 official languages of which one is English. We only need the other 10 translations, don't understand where people are getting 12 from though? --90.215.150.172 (talk) 09:35, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Merger proposal

Proposal to merge "2010 FIFA World Cup event effects" into this article

I think that the article "2010 FIFA World Cup event effects" should be merged into this article since the effects are caused by the World Cup. I also think it should be merged because it would be easier for the viewer to read if all the world cup information is in one place. Anyone else have an opinion on this matter?--Bobby122 (talk) 05:34, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose. Per Wikipedia:Merging. The resulting article is too long or "clunky". In addition the information in the "Event effects" sub-article adds no context to this article. --Marco Guzman, Jr (talk) 05:40, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Comment: The split was proposed here: Talk:2010_FIFA_World_Cup#Event_effects_proposed_split.--Marco Guzman, Jr (talk) 05:44, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

• Support Despite saying it about a million times, someone has simply gone and done a split by simple cut and paste, leaving jack shit here at all. This is idiotic, and should be reversed immediately. Simply moving it and placing 'expand' tags in the now blank section is the height of laziness, and makes the article look totaly shit. And for the millionth time also, stop invoking the 2006 article as a template to follow, it represents nothing in terms of peer-reviewed quality. Infact, it is frankly pathetic that this article now has around 5 sections which simply state - See main article xyz. Totally crap. MickMacNee (talk) 21:06, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

That someone was me. --Elliskev 21:16, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Frankly pathetic that this article has 5 "See main article" leads? There are featured articles (e.g. Dartmouth College) with 7 of them. So, it is not totally crap to have 5 of them here. What needs to be done is to write a small summary of what's included in that article where the expansion tag is currently located in this article. Also, that someone was me as well. --Marco Guzman, Jr (talk) 21:54, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

I've expanded my opposition in a new section below before I saw this. Dartmouth College has no empty sections with just a 'See here' link, not a single one, precisely because it is an FA and thus is not pathetically crap. People have spent more than 5 minutes on organising its content and sub article content. Yes, the sections do need expansion into a decent summary, I'm glad you at least realise that, others haven't at all in the past when attempting this. But are you working on that? Because the media section has been tagged with expand for, oh, a month now? I predict that nobody is working on it right now, which is why I always opposed going ahead with this section blanking approach of size reduction (without even any load speed beneifts it seems), unless or until someone demonstrated they had a solution going forward with no intermediate stage where the article became this crap version we see now, for an unspecified amount of time. MickMacNee (talk) 22:42, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

And on the general brilliantness of just sticking an expand tag in and leaving it, we now have a Greece vs. Nigeria section in the brand new controversies article. It has absolutely no content, nothing at all, just a header, asserting that something controversial happened, and it must be worthy of mention in Wikipedia. And people see that after having got all the way to the empty section in this article and followed the 'sod off' link to the controversy section with it's brilliant one line lede. It's beyond rubbish. Why this is even a merge discussion right now is beyond me, it should have simply been reverted as you would any edit that instantly tumbled an article several places down the Quality Scale. MickMacNee (talk) 22:52, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose. I had moved the material out to a recreated controversies article cut and paste word for word - see here. This article was getting very long and unfocused. My move wasn't well-received based on the response on this talk page. I guess my attempts at improving it were unreasonably chaotic and reckless shit edits. So, yeah, I disagree that it be brought back. --Elliskev 21:16, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

• Support The removal of the prose from here achieved nothing in making this article load faster or making it much shorter. Get rid of the game material and goal scorers which already have very valid separate articles. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:57, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Comment If we can get rid of the 32 participating teams as well as all references to the country of South Africa we might have plenty of room to expand on a section on the physiological effects of Vuvuzelas as well as the economic and sociopolitical impact caused on Blikkiesdorp. Readers much rather read about the poor people of Singapore who had to fork out $68 USD to watch the games on TV than reading how many goals Podolski, Muller, and Klose scored in the group stage for Germany. Brilliant! --Marco Guzman, Jr (talk) 01:51, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

• Support I was the editor who combined all the previous even WORSE pre-Jun 15ish criticism and consequence section into a hopefully non-biased event section. I am really bothered that so much CITED text has been offloaded into an unread sub page without any mention in the main. I don't care how many sentences are used to discuss phenonmenon like Blikkiesdorp, but to refuse entirely to connect the new settlements with their genesis in the FIFA choice, is so disengenuous as to be frightening. PS I will be adding in mentions from the sub, to the main, on my login acct in case anyone is wondering. This is absurd. 66.220.101.210 (talk) 07:04, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose. Unless admin can actually guarantee that this section will be heavily monitored in order to prevent POV, this section should not be added. Just read the Vuvuzuela section to see how heavily lopsided the POV is in there (POV causes psychological damage? LOL) Jamen Somasu (talk) 12:36, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

i disagree entirely that the vuvuzela section is POV. Yes there is certainly implied POV due to the actions and statements of football notables and TV stations which are complaining and filtering the sound... however thats the thing, this is all implied from referenced text which is pretty neutral in reporting facts. And the pro-vuvuzela side is perhaps well enough represented again by the IMPLIED pov that so many of the horns keep showing up at all the games. So really its a wash and it concerns a plastic musical instrument.

However I do remember seeing some other pro-vuvuzela cites from other notable footballers a while back. I haven't seen that text in a while but if someone knows where it is, I don't think there should be a problem in adding a sentance or two. 66.220.101.210 (talk) 19:27, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

• Support It does no good to split the sections and just tell the reader to follow a link. The article is not too long, just full of template formatting. Reywas92^Talk 17:02, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose or Delete Unnecessary clutter, POV, article length, no precedent. Delete perhaps because it is POV. Metallurgist (talk) 10:57, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm sure those of us working to make that section better would love to hear what is pov about it. mostly I see lots and lots of RS cites, which is kind of the opposite. And I am also wondering what other large events wp you have seen which do not have a social/cultural effects section of some sort? 66.220.101.210 (talk) 18:38, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

That elusive paragraph

I notice that various people have suggested that there be a "controversy" section in the article, relating specifically to controversial decisions made by referees and linesmen. Various other people have said that "it'll be up soon" or words to that effect, yet it remains that it is not. Since the article is in permanent lockdown only well-established registered people can add it. Is this section ever going to appear, or will it always be "coming soon"? This is getting to a "Chinese Democracy-like level. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.229.210 (talk) 08:38, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Octofinal

Why do you call the round of the last 16 clubs in this tournament "Round of 16" and not "Octo-Final"? In Germany we speak from: Achtelfinale (Octo-Final), Viertelfinale (Quater-Final), Halbfinale (Semi-Final) and Finale (Final). The description: "Runde der letzten 16" ("Round of the last 16") is also used, but not for headlines or in charts. I would recommend a similiar approach in this and other articles. Michael Belzer --MBelzer (talk) 09:29, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Round of 16 is what fifa calls it here. I have never heard Octo-Final before (but it does sound cool). --Boy.pockets (talk) 11:37, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Generally in English it's referred to as the round of 16 or last 16. I can't say I've heard Octo-Final before but I like it! Definitely a good reflection of the hideous eight-legged creature that it is. 94.173.100.191 (talk) 12:37, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

In Spanish we call it the Octavos de Final, or "Eighth Finals", but "Round of 16" appears to be the common English usage.Rodface (talk) 17:46, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

I am hispanic by origin, I have been a fan of this sport since I was 5, paid attention to it in Spanish, English, Italian, Portuguese and German and this is the first ever time I have heard of the "Octofinal" LOL Jamen Somasu (talk) 12:34, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Reactions to the world cup

It would be nice to have a section (called something like "reactions to the world cup") where the (media's) reactions to the world cup are summarized. If you go the the fifa web site (fifa.com), the news is pretty tame. There are no mentions of things like;

• the number of fouls,
• simulation by the players,
• the empty seats that I keep seeing when I watch a game (in the group stages)

I have looked through the other WC2010 articles and can find not much. There is the controversies article, but that is more a list of controversies. --Boy.pockets (talk) 11:37, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

This section should be carefully monitored by admin. This will stink of POV i.e. the Vuvuzuela section (I love Vuvuzuelas!).Jamen Somasu (talk) 12:33, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Goalscorers

Hi, can someone please update the info in Goalscorers section? Thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.83.208.73 (talk) 11:38, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

What do you think needs updating? FIFA's page is at http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/statistics/players/goals.html. PrimeHunter (talk) 12:50, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, some examples, just looking to the top of that same table: David Villa - 3 goals; Luis Suarez - 3 goals; Landon Donovan - 3 goals; Tiago - 2 goals —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.83.208.73 (talk) 19:30, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Where are you seeing the page that needs updating with this? 2010 FIFA World Cup#Goalscorers transcludes {{2010 FIFA World Cup Goalscorers}}. The page history shows that ever since before your first post, all the examples you mention were correctly listed with that number of goals.[3] Maybe you have to bypass your browser cache to the current version of the article. PrimeHunter (talk) 01:58, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't know how was that even possible, since my browser is set to clear all the private data every time it closes, but you were right about it. And apparently it was really old. Thanks a lot mate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.83.217.159 (talk) 05:28, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Hi, pls some body edit the number of goals scored by David Villa. It shows only one goal where as he has already scored 3 as on 29.06.10 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chaperon05 (talk • contribs)

Where are you seeing one goal by David Villa? 2010 FIFA World Cup#Goalscorers transcludes {{2010 FIFA World Cup Goalscorers}} which has said 3 goals since it was created 25 June (and the article also said 3 before that [4]). PrimeHunter (talk) 13:43, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Why is it "Fabiano" and not "Luis Fabiano"? Fabiano is not his surname, just like Carlos is not surname of Roberto Carlos. Brazilian names like Luis Fabiano and Roberto Carlos are artist names, not first names and surnames.109.108.6.50 (talk) 09:06, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Being from mexican ancestors, I have to defend my countrymen. Javier Hernandez, from the Mexican team actually scored two goals, one vs France and the last one vs Argentina. The goalscorers section shows him with only one goal. Can someone update this? Cheers! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sergeidave (talk • contribs) 20:40, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Hernández was already updated to two goals during the Argentina match where he scored the second goal, 2 days ago: [5]. I wonder why we keep getting these false reports about lack of goalscorer updates. Are the reporters just failing to bypass their cache or is something else happening? PrimeHunter (talk) 22:22, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Empty sections and other general crapness

I was off Wiki for a couple of days, and I come back, and this article now has four totally empty sections, Opening ceremony, Event effects, Disciplinary record, Controversies, which effectively just say 'nothing to see here, fuck off and go and look at this other article' instead. And there are countless other sections with notional {Main} links, but with no prose in the sections they supposedly expand on. And I'm only talking about Level 1 sections here, there are even more sub-level sections that are just as poor. This crapness is even extending to the content spun out, such as 2010 FIFA World Cup controversies, which has a one line lede section, and instead of improving the quality of that article or this one, has just made this one deficient, and meant that instead of paring down irrelevant info in the sub article, that now gets expanded with any old irrelevant or POV stuff, because it's now just a pathetic backwater, out of sight, out of mind. Similarly for the effects sub-article (has anyone yet figured out the difference between an event controversy and an event effect btw? The articles are no use at explaining it), and we have even had someone PROD that material as soon as it was split, text that had been on Wikipedia in this article for months if not over a year. This is all so far below good article development practice it's unreal, people can look at the other hundred sections on this talk page where I've explained this in detail, I really can't be bothered to repeat it any more. And why people think the 2006 article is a template to be following is beyond me, it has never passed a peer review, and in Wikipedia terms, it was written in the information dark ages. This WC was the first chance to show Wikipedia could grow what was always going to be a huge article with many child articles, organically and sensibly, in a controlled fashion, per the well developed and understood content and procedural rules we now have in 2010. Instead, it still looks like the utter chaos and screw the reader/article model, and the only difference from 2006 seems to be that some people want the article turned upside down for easy viewing on mobiles. All I can say is holy jebus to that tbh, but at least nobody has tried to boldly do that yet, I hope. I'm not going to bother figuring out the why's and wherefore's of this latest slash and burn episode, let alone attempt to reverse it, but this is a bloody disgrace of a situation to end up in, while the tournament is still ongoing no less, for an article being viewed by thousands of people a day. It's bad enough that people think in 2010 that this article is supposed to have no prose at all, just a bunch of pretty flags and stats, but this is just as worse frankly. P.S. as a final thought, I fully acknowledge the article needed reducing in size, and lord knows I said a million times how that's supposed to be done when people chimed in to point this out, without ever doing anything constructive about it, but I do find it very odd now that huge sections have been copy pasted out of here, the mythical 'ten seconds to load' still seems to be true, at least for me. And I'm on a fast cable connection. I'd laugh my ass off if the delay is down to all the fancy templates for holding flags and stats, it certainly isn't for downloading quality images that add to the article. Someone even removed the image of the ball it seems, wtf is that all about?. The delay certainly isn't the use of {cite web} template as some people often allege, I know of an article with ten more refs that loads in around 2 secs. Infact, the edit window says that particular article is 80kbs, which is even larger than this is now after shrinking, at 73kbs. MickMacNee (talk) 22:32, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Regarding the removal of the game ball image. That was me. At least I did at one point. I don't know if was re-added and re-removed... I removed it because it doesn't need to be here. The section that held the image has a link to an article about the ball with an image of the ball. This article was lacking focus. Why does it need a picture of the ball? Does it need a picture of every referee? Of a vuvuzela? what about a picture of Nelson Mandela? Do we need to add an image of Germany's kit? What about a video of Maradona singing? How about the orange girls? I'd like this article to have as many pictures of the orange girls as possible. --Elliskev 01:42, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

We also need a picture of Sepp Blatter. Let's not forget Shakira who very graciously composed and interprets the official anthem Waka Waka(TM). I also think we need a section on the aerodynamic properties of the Jabulani(TM) as well as a picture of Fabio Cannavaro holding the 2006 trophy... and what about a section titled the "Mick Jagger effect" which would expand on why both the United States and England lost after the singer rooted for them in the round of 16? Why don't we just go ahead and move all football references to an article titled 2010 FIFA World Cup actual football shit and maintain this article a place where non-football related manners are deeply analyzed and criticized? What the hell, at this point football is a secondary matter on this article. --Marco Guzman, Jr (talk) 02:08, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Why don't you just quit it with your sarcastic bullshit? Believe it or not, what you think is best contained by this article is not necessarily what everybody else thinks, and as you keep dismissing content that has been added to and read by hundreds of people over months as simply uneccessary, you simply sound like an arrogant twat right now. MickMacNee (talk) 02:20, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Stop? Stop the sarcasm? --Elliskev 02:32, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

The sarcasm. Stop it. Get your brains into gear, and realise the last two posts you made were utter hysterical nonsense. I can think of nothing more daft than to suggest that someone saying the image of the ball is relevant here, means they must want images of all sorts of other bollocks to be included as well. Jesus, I bet the actual number of people who saw that image there before you and didn't comment once how it made the page 'lose focus' (seriously, wtf is that even supposed to mean? not visual focus surely, but the implication is there if it's fixed by removing an image), probably runs into the millions. MickMacNee (talk) 02:44, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree with MickMacNee. This article is a joke and the perpetrators continue to make it worse by throwing out sarcasm and personal preference instead of a single useful idea on how to improve it. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:49, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Nonsense? Hysterical nonsense? --Elliskev 02:50, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

OK, I'll be serious from now on, I just couldn't resist... well.... nervermind. Listen Walter we have to start somewhere and we need to draw the line at some point. First and foremost this is an article about a football tournament; hence, the main subject of discussion should be football. We all agree that the importance and size of the event gathers so much interest that it spills over to non-football related areas in the social, political, cultural and economic realms. Walter has said in previous occasions that we shouldn't look at the 1930 version of this tournament, which is a featured article, on the basis that the tournament is larger now. There is some logic in that line of though; however, I disagree that the difference between a 13-team tournament (then) and a 32-team tournament (now) is monumental to completely overlook a featured article as such. I've also been looking at articles under Wikipedia:Featured_articles#Sport_and_recreation to have an idea what editors included there and they all seem to focus on the sporting aspects while briefly acknowledging other non-sporting incidents rather briefly. Examples of this include 1923 FA Cup Final, 1926 World Series, or 2009 Giro d'Italia to name a few. Thus far, and unless there is a catastrophic even such as a terrorist attack, this article's main notability is that its winner will be crowned football world champion and remain, or join, a select group of 7 nations which have won the tournament in the past. Not the Vuvuzela, not the Jabulani, not Waka Waka, etc. So, let's remain focused and give more weight to the footballing aspects of the tournament.

In addition, I'll not address MickMacNee directly since he or she stated in the previous post "you simply sound like an arrogant twat right now". If he or she was addressing me; I may be disappointing him/her but I'm not a homosexual. Attacks on persona using racist, homophobic, or xenophobic epithets are signs of a narrow mindset and I try to stay away from that sort of people in my life. One thing is to make fun of ones stupidity by using a sarcastic undertone and a much different one is to use hateful remarks on matters of personal choice. If he or she had slightly more creativity he or she could have turned the sarcasm on us. Who am I kidding? Creativity is always scarce in a narrow mind.

--Marco Guzman, Jr (talk) 03:48, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

It's not about the matches alone, it's about everything that surrounds the tournament. Those are the big rocks. The matches are all covered elsewhere. That makes them the little rocks that can be fit in if there's room. That makes your references meaningless until you understand what this article is for. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:53, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

I haven't got a clue what you are on about, but it just sounds like more of the same arrogance tbh. 'I'm not going to address you because you called me a name'. In my language, which happens to be the language of this website also, 'twat' is simply a slightly ruder way of saying idiot, and trust me, you are acting like a real idiot to me with your hysterical over-reactions and 'I am the reader' attitude. If 'twat' means 'homosexual' in whatever language sphere you reside in, then I'm sorry, but that is an interpretation that is entirely news to me. Infact, this is a very serious allegation, had I actually made such a slur in the way you think I have, it is a blockable offence. And while this idiocy may be infuriatingly stupid, it is not worth getting blocked over. MickMacNee (talk) 04:06, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying the slang word you used. The word still happens to reside outside conventional English but I have heard it used with a homophobic undertone in Los Angeles, California. Perhaps you should also point out that in your version of the English language "crapness", "infact", and "blockable" are also actual words. --Marco Guzman, Jr (talk) 04:42, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Actually I think that long after the average viewer forgets the winner of the tournament, if you ask them what they remember about this World Cup Finals they will likely say the vuvuzelas, although they may not remember the name. It has been a staple of news coverage and the announcers that I hear. Pretty much every set-piece there is a mention of the jabulani. Just as in Germany four years ago, the ball is most certainly a discussion-piece. Now if the moppets were here I'm sure Fozzy would mention the Waka Waka, but unless you are making a racial slur, you might not want to use phrases like that. If you think they just want to know who the winner is, why do we need the lead-up to the winner? Just post that in twelve days. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:54, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

In either case, the name calling should stop. The facts are simple. This article shouldn't be used to update the scores or blow-by-blow elements of the matches. It should be a birds-eye view of the event. An interesting thing happened while being blocked. I discovered that for some strange reason, the article loads a whole lot faster if you're not signed-in to Wikipedia, or at least have no ability to edit the article. So in the end, what matters is the end-user of the article not editors of the article. May I suggest that we focus on what should be and should not be in the article. Using past articles and similar events' articles as a benchmark is not reasonable since this isn't those other events. How can we make this a good article? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:40, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

One event that doesn't appear on the lists is 2010 Winter Olympics. It also takes forever to load but it has many sub-articles with a table of contents of related sub-articles on the right-hand side of the article, right at the top. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:48, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

We should remove all these blank sections (Opening ceremony, symbols, media, effects, controversies, discipline, referee controversies) and link them in see also. I can see maybe keeping the vuvuzela as it appears to have now become (much to the chagrin of the old boys club) a part of international footballing culture and we may wish to note where it started. We should keep the match details we currently have displayed, as per enormous precedent and obviousness. Further details can be in the child articles. Also, change statistics to Scorers like previous articles and put the statistics link in See Also.

• 2010 FIFA World Cup:
  • Controversies
  • Discipline
  • Effects
  • Media
  • Opening ceremony
  • Statistics
  • Symbols

Metallurgist (talk) 10:47, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

links to biased fifa match reports

Folks, we are linking to FIFA match reports but they are not unbiased - they make no mention of the controversies in the match, such as the disputed goals in ENG-GER and ARG-MEX are simply glossed over or even ignored. Should we be linking to these?

--ti 22:42, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

It's been the Wikipedia standard for as long as I can remember, there are a LOT of articles which give match reports here. Yes, FIFA reports are not going to criticise FIFA, but that is a rather more obvious fact than, say, a British newspaper might be subtly biased in an England match report, or an Irish newspaper might spend more time laughing it's ass off than neutrally covering any of France's 3 dismal matches. I doubt anyone would agree which news source to replace FIFA with was unbiased and neutral for any and all national match combination. MickMacNee (talk) 22:46, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes we should be linking to them since they are the match reports, but only for the match data. If you want to discuss the controversies, then link to a WP:V source that discusses them. But I don't think the individual matches should listed here at all so it's a moot point for this article. Go discuss it on the match articles. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:55, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

The FIFA match reports (example: Germany–England) seem like neutral facts in a completely standardized format listing goals, officials, squads and statistics. There is no prose or individual content whatsoever so there is no mention of any reactions or positive or negative things. I don't consider this biased and support their inclusion. PrimeHunter (talk) 13:31, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

The match reports are far from biased. They report factual information; date, time, goals, players, cards, venue, etc. Remember that FIFA's position is that the ref's decision should be final and any disallowed goals and stuff like that is the biased information. This kind of information should go in a controversy section. --MicroX (talk) 13:57, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Shall we include an image of the ball?

So, should we include an image of the Jabulani ball in this article, or does it make the article "lose focus" [6]? MickMacNee (talk) 02:56, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. It's a no brainer. Beyond obvious. MickMacNee (talk) 02:56, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
• Support. Would prefer a better image without the packaging. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:50, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
• Support. The article is about football so an image of the football that is used every match is appropriate Jenks24 (talk) 06:24, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

• Support. The ball IS part of the competition. Who would suggest otherwise?! Jamen Somasu (talk) 12:31, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

• Not so much oppose as don't see the point. The ball has its own article which includes an image. I do appreciate the total lack of civility though. --Elliskev 12:45, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
• Support. From talking with non-soccer following americans where I live the ball seems to have a higher profile than the tournament itself. There are numerous RS containing discussion of the ball design, so picture of what they are talking about, is again a no-brainer. Lets not forget also that wp is not just meant as a tool for the literate. 66.220.101.210 (talk) 19:43, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

• Neutral. I'm not fond of subtle product placement on Wikipedia, but I must say it makes more sense including the image of the ball used during football matches, than the image of someone demonstrating how to operate a blowing horn or a "Blatterville" slum. --Marco Guzman, Jr (talk) 23:52, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose There is no point. It is more unneeded clutter. Previous articles do not have their balls. Metallurgist (talk) 10:54, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

We need citations for the soccer stadia

Currently only three have citations. Rather than add {{Citation needed|date=June 2010}} to the other entries, which would wreck the layout, I'll post it here. For some reason, the English-language FIFA site has a different capacity for Soccer City than the others.

• http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/destination/stadiums/stadium=5007759/index.html = 88,460
• http://de.fifa.com/worldcup/destination/stadiums/stadium=5007759/index.html = 84.490
• http://fr.fifa.com/worldcup/destination/stadiums/stadium=5007759/index.html = 84 490
• http://es.fifa.com/worldcup/destination/stadiums/stadium=5007759/index.html = 84.490
• http://pt.fifa.com/worldcup/destination/stadiums/stadium=5007759/index.html = 88.460
• http://ar.fifa.com/worldcup/destination/stadiums/stadium=5007759/index.html = 94700 (the size for non-soccer events)

So what about the other venues? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:17, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

The Fans Photo

Can someone change the caption under the fans photo unless this is true? It currently reads "Models superimposed on a photo of Camps Bay, Cape Town, South Africa" whereas the picture info reads "Fans celebrating the upcoming 2010 FIFA World Cup in South Africa (Camps Bay, Cape Town)". I somehow doubt that this is a fake image, but confirm/deny/change? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.118.36.191 (talk) 14:35, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

 Done

I made that, admittedly cheeky, but true, edit, based on previous discussion here, the file talk, and looking closely at the pic in large display. I considered posting "Models superimposed badly on a photo of Camps Bay", but that could have been considered POV. The previous, and now restored, text is by no means verifiable: how does the editor requesting this, or acting on that request, intend verifying that these are fans, that the World Cup is the cause of their celebration, or that they were at Camps Bay? If we don't have a true caption, we would be better without the photo. Kevin McE (talk) 17:58, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't know. They could be models. They could be fans. They could be CGI. We have to assume good faith in the person who uploaded the image though. I do see the PhotoShop halo on the full-size image and the images were staged because there are additional photos from the same session shot sometime in 2009:

• http://www.opusarte.com/en/newsandfeatures/footballclassical/
• http://www.the-esa.org/news/-/major-initiative-to-green-the-fifa-world-cup-kicks-off
• http://www.thefeeherytheory.com/2010/06/11/friday-musings/

Despite all this, they do represent South Africans, wearing South African colours, set in a South African setting. It seems to be a good use of the image. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:16, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

In which case a suitable caption would be what? "Staged photo of people wearing South African colours, and a background showing Camps Bay"? Is the word of an editor to be considered a Reliable Source? Kevin McE (talk) 21:49, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

You're an editor. Do you, in good faith, assume you're a reliable source? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:58, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't expect my own assertion to be accepted unquestioningly, especially when there is evidence that it is flawed and there is potential for conflict of interest: would you? Kevin McE (talk) 22:32, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Good faith assumes that I am acting without malice or deception. Bad faith assumes that I am trying to be malicious in some way. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:47, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

And WP:V insists on independent reliable sources for any claim that can be reasonably contested. Do you think someone who considers that "there are artifacts that suggest PhotoShop was involved" should take the contents of the photo for granted? Kevin McE (talk) 23:14, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

But WP:V is met when copyright holder uploads the image and writes "Fans celebrating the upcoming 2010 FIFA World Cup in South Africa (Camps Bay, Cape Town)". That was easy. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:09, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

That section of WP:V does not leave one to deduce that anyone with a camera is to be considered infallible; it is assumed so long as "there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity". Why are you so determinedly defending an image about which you have admitted suspicion? Kevin McE (talk) 06:13, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

I have suspicions about how PhotoShop was used. It could have been used to burn-in the subjects. All of the other images taken at this time have the same information as to location. In short, there is nothing wrong with the photo. If you don't like the photo, have it deleted. Until then, it fits the subject of the article and should be used here. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:20, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

One more thing: if you think there is something fallible in the image, ask the image uploader to explain. Until then or until it's deleted, it's fair to use here and it fits the subject well. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:29, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

That may be your opinion. I, and others such as the 84k+ edits admin you reverted this morning, all those participating in the previous discussion here, and all those commenting at the photo's own talk page, seem to think otherwise. It is questionable whether the people were at the claimed site: more importantly, it is highly questionable as to whether they were fans celebrating spontaneously rather than carefully made up people, very possibly recruited for the purpose of the photo, in a posed and staged shot. We are under no moral obligation to include a photo merely because it has been submitted, nor to retain it because it has been placed in the article: we are under obligation to provide the best information that we can, and this caption does not meet that standard. Kevin McE (talk) 06:42, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

(after edit conflict): I'm several hours ahead of you: invited him into the discussion already. I make no accusation against the photographer: it seems perfectly legitimate to give the artistic intent of an image, rather than the circumstances of its creation, as its summary, but it is naive to believe that the two are always the same when writing a caption. Kevin McE (talk) 06:42, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't like it; it looks fake (as in, visibly photoshopped) to me and seems in any case like decoration rather than illustration. I think a lot of the comments here on another of the uploader's images apply to this one as well. I don't think it adds to the article. --John (talk) 07:04, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if it looks fake or not. Stop deleting the image. The maps look fake. Delete them too while you're at it. The Lukasrand Tower looks contrived. Delete that image. Half the stadium images are crap. Delete them. The map of South Africa that displays the cities is terrible. Why display rivers in it. Delete it! I could go n, but there's nothing wrong with the image as it is approved for use on Wikipedia and as such this is the perfect location for it to be used. I restored your personal preference delete and have changed the copy to something more neutral since your deletion refers only to the copy. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:20, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Left on my talk page:

Why are you so keen to retain it? It looks terrible and is a fake. --John (talk) 18:19, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't look terrible at all. Its composition is great. It's not a fake. It's taken with a real camera. If it were entirely composed, or rendered, it would be a fake. For all I know you're as real as the subjects in the photo. Have the image removed from Wikipedia commons if you don't like the fact that it's been slightly modified, but stop applying your personal opinion on the article. I'm sure it will suffer the same results as the related image. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:26, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

TV production

A lot of people have taken notice of the very high quality of the live TV production of the matches, in terms of slow motion details, instant and well-timed replays, and enough cameras to seemingly catch all incidents from all angles. Someone with factual information about the production should add it to wikipedia. --Kvaks (talk) 19:04, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

UEFA team failings

Under 2010_FIFA_World_Cup#Knockout_stage, I think something should be added about how this is the WORST performance of all time by European teams in a World Cup. According to National_team_appearances_in_the_FIFA_World_Cup#UEFA_.28Europe.29, there has never been a World Cup quarterfinals with only 3 European (UEFA) teams. In 1970 and 2002, only 4 teams made it to the quarterfinals, which was the previous worst. 1930, 1950 and 1982 didn't have quarterfinals. In 1950, 6 European teams placed in the Top 8. In 1982, 10 of the 12 2nd round teams were European (and the semifinalists were all European). The inaugural 1930 tournament is a little trickier. Only 4 European teams entered. Serbia, then Yugoslavia, (4th), France (7th) and Romania (8th) placed in the Top 8, tying this year for fewest Top 8 placed teams. Belgium finished 11th in 1930, the other European entrant. However, there was no official quarterfinals.

I believe a statement should be added after "This is the highest number of South American teams in the final eight since the 1930 tournament". Something like:
"Only three European teams progressed to the quarter-finals. This is the lowest number of European teams in the final eight ever."
or
"Only three European teams progressed to the quarter-finals. This is the lowest number of European teams in the final eight since the 1930 tournament."

As I don't have the power to edit this, I hope someone will take this into serious consideration since it is making headlines everywhere and merits inclusion. Cheers!--Bru0017 (talk) 04:39, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't think so. Teams from Europe generally don't do well outside of Europe and are knowen to do well inside Europe. Kingjeff (talk) 04:43, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

That's not the point. The point is that we ARE talking about how well South America is doing. Seeing as only South American and European teams have ever made the Finals, it is WELL worth mentioning that European teams have had their worst performance of all time in this World Cup. If we have information about all the other federations, and details on them, too, then there logically should be something additional said about Europe. Furthermore, the fact that their poor performance as a continent has been the worst ever is such an overwhelmingly obvious thing to add to this article, especially in light of the content of the rest of that section. Wouldn't rational people agree?--Bru0017 (talk) 04:55, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Check out National_team_appearances_in_the_FIFA_World_Cup#Results_by_confederation--Bru0017 (talk) 04:58, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Kingjeff, that's not actually true. European teams are know for not winning. But not known for not doing well. Just have a look at the quarter-finals in 1994. 7 European teams. But it's been steady with quarter-finals and semi-final and final appearances in the Americas and Asia. Last time a European team failed to qualify for the actual final was 1930. The last time a team failed to make the top 2 was 1950. chandler 06:24, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

As it stands now: "South American teams continued their strong performance in the round of 16, with the maximum possible four out of five progressing to the quarter-finals (Uruguay, Argentina, Brazil and Paraguay won, while Chile lost to Brazil). This is the highest number of South American teams in the final eight since the 1930 tournament. Of the European teams, Germany, the Netherlands, and Spain progressed; Germany's 4-1 defeat of England marked that nation's worst ever defeat at a World Cup finals. Ghana defeated the United States to become the third ever African team to reach the last eight (along with Cameroon in 1990 and Senegal in 2002). The two CONCACAF teams (the USA and Mexico) and the two Asian nations (South Korea and Japan) lost in the round of 16."

It's pretty obvious that a remark about the European teams' worst performance ever is very fitting for inclusion here. Perhaps right after "Spain progressed."--Bru0017 (talk) 05:02, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't think the tournament had the same structure in 1930 so it's no more correct to refer to that tournament than to say "to date". "Ever" is not correct since it includes the future as well. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:27, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Have many reliable sources made this observation? If not, it doesn't strike me as particularly notable. Knepflerle (talk) 11:30, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Referees dismissed

Several referees have been dismissed after the First Round. Should we make such a note? http://www.africanews.com/site/list_message/28831 Metallurgist (talk) 10:35, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

That article says nothing about referees being dismissed, as far as I can see. Some of the first-round referees aren't used in the later stages, but this is entirely normal - three-quarters of World Cup matches are in the group stage. Knepflerle (talk) 11:27, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Colour in tables

(restored from archive, as not yet acted upon)

The information given in tables only through the use colour shading needs also to be conveyed through symbols, to make it accessible for text-only browsers, black-and-white displays, the colour blind and page readers. Knepflerle (talk) 14:56, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

What in particular? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:13, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Any information only given in colour - for example, in the first round group tables at the moment the qualifying and non-qualifying teams are indicated by shading alone, but this information isn't accessible to the users mentioned above. Over the sets of articles on this World Cup, I expect there are other examples. Knepflerle (talk) 15:50, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps an additional text column to indicate when a team advances or is eliminated.--The Three Headed Knight (talk) 16:27, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

That would work. Knepflerle (talk) 17:37, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Could someone have a go at implementing this? Knepflerle (talk) 11:23, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

The article already says the top two in the group stage advance. This information is not indicated by shading alone, it is indicated by the advancing teams being at the top of the table. The color is only for illustration. Reywas92^Talk 16:27, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

"The article already says the top two in the group stage advance" - if that were sufficient, we wouldn't use the shading. All it needs is some sort of extra column, or an indicator in an existing column. When tables are used, users should be possible to pick out the relevant information from the table without hunting around the article for interpretation. Knepflerle (talk) 18:16, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

David Villa's goal

Why is David Villa's goal against Portugal listed as offside? It wasn't, and at the very least it wasn't as clear offside as the other Tevez goal. Please provide a reliable source conclusively proving that it was offside. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.140.167.5 (talk) 12:53, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Because too many editors work on this article and it's hard to keep track of information that shouldn't even be in this article. It looks like it has already been "corrected". While not a controversial as the other items, Villa received the ball after being in an off-side position that was not called. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:09, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Too much info on goalscorers

I don't think that every person who scores even one goal should be listed here. We already have a separate page for statistics. I think this main page should only list players who scored two or more or three or more. Wrad (talk) 15:26, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Statistics are recorded elsewhere as are matches, team rosters, etc. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:06, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Thirded; I'd just mention the current top-scorers, and point to the full table in the statistics article. Knepflerle (talk) 18:13, 30 June 2010 (UTC)