Talk:David Miscavige

Removal of sources, and addition of unsourced material

[1] = this edit removed sources, and added unsourced material. Let's avoid this behavior please, especially on a WP:BLP page, and especially one within this topic area. -- Cirt (talk) 03:40, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Gee, thanks for all of your help. BTfromLA (talk) 04:54, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Please make sure to back up newly added info to independent reliable secondary sources, using citations. -- Cirt (talk) 04:56, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

What do you consider adequate verification for the existence of the Anderson Cooper series about Miscavige and the specifics about it that I cited? News articles that tout that he will be doing the series? Cooper's own CNN blog posts about the series? Videos of the series on youtube or on the CNN website? I'm not sure whether any third party articles in reputable publications have described each installment of his series in detail, but I should think there's some way to treat material produced by a reputable broadcast news source as equivalent to a print article. As to my removal of sourced material, do you really think that any sensationalistic lawsuit that is brought against someone is suitable for inclusion in an article about them? Though "sourced," that one struck me as below the threshold of responsible editing, particularly, as you say, in this fraught topic area. (If lawsuits are to brought up, they should probably be treated as a group, and more fairly characterized: Miscavige is being accused of human trafficking, not "slavery": those are close, but not identical.) BTfromLA (talk) 05:17, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps you could suggest some sources, and we could go from there. As far as your removal of sourced material, perhaps you could put forth on the talk page the sources you feel you wish to remove from the article, and this could also be discussed. -- Cirt (talk) 05:23, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

I think I just did put forward the info I wanted to remove and why. It isn't the source I want to remove, it's the content: somebody files a lawsuit saying Miscavige is guilty of slavery. And I did outline the types of sources that are avaialble for the Anderson Cooper thing, why not answer my question? BTfromLA (talk) 05:27, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

The sources (multiple sources) you removed were WP:RS, and should be discussed as to why they were removed with no discussion. The info you added was unsourced, and we should discuss individual specifc suggested sources, not vague ideas of possible sources. -- Cirt (talk) 10:54, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Cirt, I find your manner here patronizing, hostile and a violation of WP:OWN. I an not inclined to waste my time wrangling with an uncooperative collaborator, so you win: I will make no further attempts to improve the article. BTfromLA (talk) 16:17, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

All I am asking is that we discuss individual sources, one-at-a-time. And also not add unsourced material to a WP:BLP page. -- Cirt (talk) 16:24, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

You did a wholesale revert of my edit as if it were vandalism. You addressed me as if I were a naughty child. You refused to engage my attempts to address your issues, instead issuing patronizing directives about the form in which I must present my questions before you will deign to consider them. You really need to consider your manners and your tone: if this is typical of you, it makes for poorer articles and a dismal environment in which to collaborate. --BTfromLA (talk) 16:39, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, the edit removed sourced material, and simultaneously added uncited material - to a WP:BLP page. That is indeed quite inappropriate. -- Cirt (talk) 16:41, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

You don't seem to understand what I'm saying... I'm not talking about sources, I'm talking about rudeness. Sigh. BTfromLA (talk) 16:44, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Let us focus on a discussion of content and sources, and avoid discussion of individual contributors please. -- Cirt (talk) 16:56, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

No mention of Anderson Cooper reports or wife?

How come there is no mention of the week-long AC360 reports? It was covered by the Associated Press[2] and many other articles.[3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12] [13][14] Even the St Petersburg Times discussed the AC report.

Also why is there no discussion of his wife Michelle Miscavige? She was mentioned in articles such as "IRS examined Scientology dollars, not dogma" (St. Petersburg Times; Oct 24, 1993), "Scientologists Report Assets of $400 Million"(New York Times), "Diana author names Tom Cruise as 'World Number Two in Scientology'" ("Naturally the work was regularly inspected by David and Shelley Miscavige [his wife], who would ride over to the site on his motorbike" in Daily Mail - Jan 7, 2008), "Growth of Scientology gets big boost from Cruise" ("Shelly Britt, who joined Scientology at 17, said she was at the base for 20" in San Francisco Chronicle - Dec 25, 2005), and "Scientology's Record on Human Rights" (newsblaze.com Mar 2, 2007). —Preceding unsigned comment added by BlacjinDH (talk • contribs) 21:56, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

My attempt to add a description of this was unceremoniously reverted for lack of proper sourcing. You might wanty to look back at my edit, add a couple of your sources if they cover that material, and see whether you have better luck than I did adding this important story to the article. --BTfromLA (talk) 00:43, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

BlacjinDH (talk · contribs) has helpfully suggested some good independent reliable secondary sources. Thank you very much for doing that, and recommending them here on the talk page. This was a most constructive course of action. -- Cirt (talk) 04:22, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Under "Allegations of abuse" a few sentences about the AC360 and the church's response should be added. His wife's name and other details cited above should be added to "Personal life." —Preceding unsigned comment added by BlacjinDH (talk • contribs) 15:31, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Very good suggestions, agreed. -- Cirt (talk) 17:25, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

I tried to add some wording in but the artikle is locked. This what i tried to include from the above sources:

In March 2010, Marty Rathbun, Jeff Hawkins, Tom DeVocht and Amy Scobee again confirmed allegations of abuse by Miscavige to CNN's Anderson Cooper on AC360. The allegations were also reported Associated Press, The New York Times, ABC's Nightline, NBC's Today and other outlets.

and

Miscavige is married to Michele "Shelley" Miscavige. According to IRS documents made public in 1993, David earned $62,683 and his wife was paid $31,359 as his assistant by the Church of Scientology in 1991.

Tom Cruise confessional files

Added new subsection, [15]. -- Cirt (talk) 14:00, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

The entire subsection was removed, by Wobblegenerator (talk · contribs). Thoughts? -- Cirt (talk) 01:35, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

It should say that this is a rumor. At least in biographies involving celebrities, right? I'll look a little deeper. Wobblegenerator (talk) 20:04, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Here is what I understand as appropriate per the guidelines on biographies:

"Biographies of living persons (BLPs) must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not our job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives, and the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment. This policy applies to BLPs, including any living person mentioned in a BLP even if not the subject of the article, and to material about living persons on other pages.[3] The burden of evidence for any edit on Wikipedia rests with the person who adds or restores material." (WP:BLP).

The use of several tabloids with the exact same content in different languages does not change this. The same guideline refers to a resolution of the Wikimedia Foundation that clearly notes:

"People sometimes make edits designed to smear others. This is difficult to identify and counteract, particularly if the malicious editor is persistent."[[16]]

I hope this is not the case here but it is obvious that that none of these articles (if my Google translation does not fail me) says anything else than that this is a rumor or accusation by a former member of the church of scientology who is still making "a career" with scientology methods now, the very same ones he criticizes in his blog[17]. This is not made clear at all and I don't understand why this would be left out.

In all, I think the above rule for biographies was seriously violated with the addition of those paragraphs. I propose to change it to the following text as part of the Allegations of Abuse section:

"According to an anonymous former member of the Church of Scientology revealed in a blog statement in May 2010 by former scientologist Mark Rathbun who served as Inspector General of the Religious Technology Center from 1978 to 2004, Miscavige ordered that Tom Cruise's Auditing sessions be secretly videotaped."

The sources for this should not be blogs or tabloids, for example this [18] seems sufficient.

Thoughts? Wobblegenerator (talk) 20:34, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

I counted 11 WP:RS in 4 languages and no statements referenced directly by a blog or tabloid. the reason "this is a rumor or accusation by a former member of the church of scientology who is still making "a career" with scientology methods now" is left out is that it is an enthymeme completed by an ad hominim, and hasn't found it's way into any reliable sources because any reliable source publication's editor worth his weight would recognize that. do you have a WP:RS which you feel bears inclusion?Coffeepusher (talk) 22:51, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

There is something strange about this conversation. Please look at the reference that I recommended. It covers the proposed text in full and it is a reliable source (as I understand the guidelines on the subject). No need to have gossip papers or personal blogs as reference. Taking a very critical perspective we might want to take the word "still" out of my proposal. But otherwise I am not sure what your point is? Wobblegenerator (talk) 01:39, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

(outdent) it does appear like we are missing each other. personally I don't think this violates BLP because this story is being actively reported on by reliable sources and the length and detail is appropriate compared to similar topics in this section. Which sources do you believe are not reliable, and what do you believe should be deleted since the source you gave for the most part collaborates everything that is in the section?Coffeepusher (talk) 03:05, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the exact same story is being reported by several online news and taking the same story in four languages is redundant. Take your pick. All of them report the same story. The one I proposed is a little longer, has more aspects of the story and does not violate the guidelines for biographies of living persons. As noted earlier. That is subject #1. Subject #2 of my proposal is that the added paragraphs are undue in size, repetitive and with their many quotes might belong in an article about Mark Rathbun as he is the main subject of these paragraphs. Look at my proposal and tell me what you think. Here is is again:

"According to an anonymous former member of the Church of Scientology revealed in a blog statement in May 2010 by former scientologist Mark Rathbun who served as Inspector General of the Religious Technology Center from 1978 to 2004 and is now delivering scientology services outside the church, Miscavige ordered that Tom Cruise's Auditing sessions be secretly videotaped."

The sources for this should not be blogs or tabloids, for example this [19] seems sufficient.

The source (ninemsn.com, one of Australia's biggest news networks) does include that Mark Rathbun is some kind of a competitor to the church of scientology so I added it in. Wobblegenerator (talk) 18:12, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Quote from the source: "Mr Rathbun wrote that a "very reliable witness" told him that Miscavige held meetings where he brought transcripts of the tapes and read them out loud."

Quote 2 from the source: "Since defecting from the Church in 2004, Mr Rathbun has made a career out of providing counselling and auditing services to other former Scientology members."

Wobblegenerator (talk) 18:16, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Currently the article says this: "Rathbun wrote that Miscavige would read out information from the reports about Cruise's auditing sessions, "While sipping scotch whiskey at the end of the night, Miscavige would read Tom’s overts and withholds ... joking and laughing about the content of Tom’s confessions."[33][34]"

Contradictory? I think so. But more to the point it does not even hide that it is gossip and needs to be toned down appropriately to fit biographical requirements. Wobblegenerator (talk) 18:23, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Wobblegenerator (talk · contribs) is incorrect. Per the cited WP:RS secondary sources, Mark Rathbun stated that it was he, himself, who carried out the secret videotape operation. -- Cirt (talk) 03:09, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

I only saw that he stopped it. Where did you see that he was the instigator of the action? Wobblegenerator (talk) 18:02, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Check again. The proposed text by Wobblegenerator (talk · contribs) is patently factually inaccurate. According to Mark Rathbun, it was Rathbun that conducted the secret videotaping operation, not some other individual. -- Cirt (talk) 18:17, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

It says he did the recording after he was ordered to do so. Would you mind to add a link or reference or point out what is wrong with my proposal? Wobblegenerator (talk) 18:25, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

"By order of Miscavige many of those sessions were secretly recorded by a well-concealed video camera and voice recorder system built into the VIP auditing room at Celebrity Center International." -- Cirt (talk) 18:26, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. This does not contradict my proposal that says: "According to an anonymous former member of the Church of Scientology revealed in a blog statement in May 2010 by former scientologist Mark Rathbun who served as Inspector General of the Religious Technology Center from 1978 to 2004 and is now delivering scientology services outside the church, Miscavige ordered that Tom Cruise's Auditing sessions be secretly videotaped.". Any other thoughts? Wobblegenerator (talk) 18:39, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Again incorrect. Rathbun is stating this himself, not some "anonymous former member". -- Cirt (talk) 18:41, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Oh. There was something missing in my sentence. Thanks for pointing it out!

"According to an anonymous former member of the Church of Scientology revealed in a blog statement in May 2010 by former scientologist Mark Rathbun who served as Inspector General of the Religious Technology Center from 1978 to 2004 and is now delivering scientology services outside the church, Miscavige would discuss information from Tom Cruise's Auditing sessions that Mark Rathbun secretly videotaped." Better? Wobblegenerator (talk) 18:47, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

as I already stated Rathbun's profession does not merit inclusion. it is simply setting up a enthymeme and Ad hominim attack which outside those venues is not tied to David's personal use of confessional files. If he left the church and became Joe the Plummer would David Miscavage have acted differently?Coffeepusher (talk) 18:42, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Rathbun was part of the scheme. He taped and delivered the material to Miscavige (so he says). He was actually doing the auditing interviews that were taped and is still doing these things now. Apart from that this borders to original research. Why not just quoting what the WP:RS says? I am reading the very good guidelines for WP:BLP and still find them violated (as said earlier). On the other hand I am still learning so we might want to invite a professional editor in to give advice. Wobblegenerator (talk) 18:47, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

how does him offering auditing services now have anything to do with statements that David took those files and violating confidentiality with them? As I already said, I don't think the length is a problem, since it offers detailed cometary supported by many WP:RS on what has been described as "some of the most damning statements" against Miscavige, even more significant than the abuse allegations which have a similar length.Coffeepusher (talk) 21:26, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

I think this brings some light onto this entire conversation.Coffeepusher (talk) 21:45, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

WP:TRIVIA

I was flagged for attempting to add information from the #1 referenced article for this page, the Tobin St. Petersburg Times article. My information was removed by Cirt, at first, as a result of a WP:TRIVIA citation. As you can see in my TALK page, I have attempted to address this removal and how I disagree with it. As I did not hear back from Cirt in this discussion, I went ahead and added this information again yesterday only to find it removed this AM.

As a result of our lack of interaction and few reasons for arbitrary removal, I wanted to engage in discussion on this TALK page. I am trying to integrate information about DM's interests and hobbies. What would be the best way to do this? Was my entry too extensive? Do I need to integrate the information into a new section? Is this information irrelevant?

The cited paragraph I was pulling from is: "During frequent visits to Clearwater, where his mother lives, Miscavige said he spends his nights in Scientology’s staff dormitory, a converted apartment complex on Saturn Avenue. He said he eats in Scientology’s communal dining halls and sometimes gets out to Domenic’s Capri Italian Restaurant on Clearwater Beach. He goes to movies, enjoys trail biking in Hillsborough County, and has been known to ride a water scooter. He said he also plays piano, takes underwater photographs, reads several books a week, exercises daily and keeps a casual eye on his hometown sports teams from Philadelphia."

WP:TRIVIA says of trivia: "lists of miscellaneous information can be useful for developing a new article, as they represent an easy way for novice contributors to add information without having to keep in mind article organization or presentation; they can just add a new fact to the list." It goes on to say: "Some entries may be speculative or factually incorrect, and should be removed; some may fall outside the scope of the article and should be moved to other articles; and others, such as "how-to" material or tangential/irrelevant facts, may fall outside Wikipedia's scope and should be removed altogether."

My information was regarding DM's interests and hobbies. Listing an individuals' hobbies or interests is not irrelevant and most certainly does not "fall outside Wikipedia's scope." As you can see in the Education section of Thomas Jefferson's Wikipedia page, Jefferson's interests of "his violin" and "love for wines" are clearly cited in the first part of the article. And, as you can see in Winston Churchill's page, there is mention of the relationship he had with his mother: "He was rarely visited by his mother (then known as Lady Randolph Churchill), and wrote letters begging her to either come to the school or to allow him to come home," as well as non-cited mentions of his performance in school: "He earned high marks in English and History and was also the school's fencing champion."

Per WP:TRIVIA: "Trivia sections should not simply be removed from articles in all cases. It may be possible to integrate some items into the article text. Some facts may belong in existing sections, while others may warrant a new section. Integrate trivia items into the body of the article if appropriate. "

I realize Scientology has involvement in Wikipedia and the Internet, but this does not mean that every edit to a Scientology-related page is made by a "drone" of Scientology.

Please help me understand how I might be able to make logical and reasonable edits to this page without preemptive removals. Thank you for your assistance. AlexJohnTorres12 (talk) 18:55, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

first off, how other pages choose to weigh the merits of particular information about a person depends entirely upon that pages community and does not necessarily create a standard for Wikipedia as a whole. I personally believe inserting a bullet point list of his hobbies, Hobbies shared by many people in the US, came without earlier contextualization and is not referenced or elaborated upon later.Coffeepusher (talk) 21:20, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Coffeepusher. To ensure that I am understanding you correctly, are you saying that, according to you, I would be okay to create a new section for DM's hobbies? I, of course, realize that I would need the rest of this pages' community to jump in and confirm a given strategy. Thanks again. AlexJohnTorres12 (talk) 22:12, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

come up with the sources necessary while avoiding WP:SYNTH to explain those hobbies in an encyclopedic yet non-trivial way (show how those hobbies are necessary to understanding Davie) and we can discuss that then...as it stands no, you don't have nearly enough information to create that section from the source you have provided.Coffeepusher (talk) 00:43, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

rmv uncited direct quote

Thanks Cirt. I recognize that my edit was removed due to lack of citation. I have inserted the same edit and cited the web source I had taken it from, which is a source that was used in the same category - Public Contact. Thank you. AlexJohnTorres12 (talk) 10:00, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

rmv, seems more spam advert promotional rather than biographical in nature.

Thanks Cirt. With all due respect, I resent my edit that was posted on the "Rise to leadership" category. The statement in question was taken out of http://www.tampabay.com/news/article1012137.ece, a credible source that has been cited by other editors. This news article is informational and not commercial in nature -- St. Petersburg Times' journalistic tone is not promotional. AlexJohnTorres12 (talk) 10:30, 20 August 2010 (UTC)