Talk:Pop Goes the Weasel

Heads Up!

I'm putting this up the top in case anyone is still watching this page. This article is a mishmash of crap. If anybody who has complained or commented here have any actual information to add to it, now would be a good time. At the moment it's so speculative as to be worthless, and I want to pare it back. pablo_hablo. 21:17, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I took this as fair warning to anyone with serious objections. I have cleaned up the article, taking into account the widespread concerns below. The only unsubstantiated section left are some of the American lyrics. It would be could if a reliable source can be found.--Sabrebd (talk) 22:21, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I Found 9 G hits for the "good old turtley song" crap, all of them copied from Wikipedia. That seems to be completely fabricated. Of course, we could wind up in the position of Wikipedia being the source of something that goes viral and then self-cites. I'm putting this note here so someone can find a good reference for that verse. If not, I'm going to delete it.

I concur on how bad this page is generally. I added a reference to some verses, but I didn't quite code the cite right. It's there. I'll see if I can get that fixed, but feel free meantime.Mzmadmike (talk) 12:26, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

This has been up here for a while. I suggest we remove all of the lyrics that do not have reliable citations.--Sabrebd (talk) 15:38, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Whatever

Can I get some --any -- reference to rhyming slang existing in the 17th century? What? No? If not, can we junk the shockingly questionable second possible meaning? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.27.178.67 (talk) 16:06, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

The Lyrics

Maybe they are completely nonsensical...just a thought...Colin4C 11:30, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I was taught that the poem reffered to organized crime in London, the Eagle (pub) being a meeting place, anyone feel like doing some digging on that? Empty Hat

My father (who was an authentic cockney - born within the sound of Bow Bells and all that) always taught me that "Weasel" was cockney slang for a wedding ring...although he never came up with a convincing rhyming slang for it (not that I can recall at least). So "Pop goes the weasel" would mean "Pawning the wedding ring" - which would be a much more logical thing to pawn than a coat or something with functional value - and in those days might well have been the most valuable thing a poor family owned. The use of "pop" to mean "pawn" is still in use in some parts of the UK where a pawn shop is sometimes called a "popping shop". SteveBaker 01:47, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Well not all cockney slang was rhyming slang, just as not all rhyming slang is cockney. I've never heard of 'weasel' for a wedding ring, but you may find a similar-sounding term in Irish, Yiddish, Romani, Shelta, Hindi/Urdu, Thieves cant, or one of the many, many other languages that have donated words to English usage. pablo_hablo. 21:13, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Origin

User:89.241.68.248 inserted this in the intro after the statement that the tune originated in the 17th century: Gazpacho

[This may be innacurate. My understanding is that the tune is a version of a tune recorded in Gow's Repository, which was printed in 4 volumes 1799-1820, and that this tune is in turn similar to certain jigs traceable back to the 17th Century- source: www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-pop1.htm As I understand, there is no printed citation for the nursery rhyme itself previous to the mid 19th century. While it may well have existed in oral form for many years before this, there is, as I understand, currently no evidence of this. Source: www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/pop-goes-the-weasel Note added by Keith Macpherson]

Possible Theory

I think the weasel got tired of the monkey chasing him, so he turned around and shot him. thats the "pop goes the weasel" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.209.30.108 (talk) 19:21, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Poor quality research

This article doesn't do Wikipedia proud. The presentation of various lyrics is great. But the interpretations are only partly supported by the references given at the end of the article. Only the Quinion link goes any way to explaining the song, and he expresses much more reserve than the article. Surely someone has published something on the origins of this song? The interpretations need more than weblinks and hearsay to support them. The cockney interpretation, without a lot more evidence, seems rather farfetched if one applies Ockham's Razor.--Iacobus (talk) 04:14, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Location

"The original theme seems to have been a darkly humorous vignette of the cycle of poverty among workers in the East End of London" - no, the City Road isn't in the East End, rather it runs north from the City of London. Unless someone provides a definite connection to the East End soon, I shall edit that out. P.M.Lawrence203.194.49.100 (talk) 12:16, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Displayed tune is incorrect

As I know the tune (since I was a child) and indeed even as it was whistled by Riker in the episode of ST-TNG quoted in the article, the third note from the end as shown in the sheet music should be an F not a D. That is to say the last three notes descend in order. Searching various midi files on the internet which unfortunately I may not link to as they do not seem to be in the public domain, this seems to be borne out by how everyone else who knows the tune expects it to sound too. In other words, the sheet music is wrong. A public domain midi or ogg version of the song would be useful is someone has the resources to create and/or host. Aethandor (talk) 09:42, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

In fact as I look more closely at the tune, the fourth note (D) should be an F, the the twelth note (D) should be an F, the fourth note on the second line (D) should be an F, plus the third note fro the end as previously mentioned. The tune portrayed by the music notation shown is therefore very incorrect. I move that the sheet music should therefore be removed, and replaced as soon as possible with an example that is correct in one of many forms (sheet music, ogg, midi, wav) Aethandor (talk) 09:55, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't read music, so I can't vouch for the exact pitch of the notes, but I can sing along with it if I know the tune, and it looks like the staff is missing a note. There should be a note, a step or two below middle C, between the eighth and ninth notes shown (by count, I mean, not "eighth note"). And in fact there's a little gap there where that note should be. Basically, it's missing a "the": "All a-round the co-obb-ler's bench [the] mon-key chased the wea-sel." Unless they are intending the little dot on note # 8 to mean that "bench" and "the" are sung together, but I don't think that's correct. "The" should drop a note or two down, to an "A" or whatever. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 11:21, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes I know what you mean. I have created a new image file with a slightly different version of the tune, incorporating the first change I suggested here but not the later ones and have used it to replace the original image. I suspect that the tune varies slightly depending upon the person singing it and which verse is being sung. I have created a couple of midi files sounding the melody in the original listed form plus the two versions I have suggested, and if I can find a location to store them online and link to them I'm place them in the public domain and link to them here so it can be possible to hear the tune being played.Aethandor (talk) 14:08, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

You're still missing that A or whatever, between notes 8 and 9. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 17:26, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I know what you mean now, it's actually a 'C' but I left it out because it's an extra note which is sung to make the syllables of the lyrics fit the tune for that verse, but it doesn't apply for every verse. If you have a listen to the midi file which I've linked to, does it sound correct to you ? The midi file plays the tune as shown in the image file of the sheet music.
By way of comparison, the tune as it would sound if one were to play the music as written in the previous image would sound as http://hansolo.f-sw.com/midi_pd/popgoesweasel_written.mid. Aethandor (talk) 20:16, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Image:Pop Goes the Weasel melody.PNG is sourced but has no fair-use rationale for Pop Goes the Weasel. Hyacinth (talk) 23:37, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I remember a different melody for the verse which starts "Up and down the City Road." It's a higher melody starting on the C above middle C, and is missing from both the displayed tune and the sound clip. Difrankel (talk) 18:16, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

The Marx Brothers: Duck Soup

There is one important reference missing. In the 1933 motion picture "Duck Soup" by the Marx Brothers the dictator of Freedonia, Rufus T. Firefly (Groucho), in a song lets us know what will happen to anyone not obeying his rules: ..we line them up against the wall, and Pop Goes The Weasel - holding a stick like a rifle. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.228.131.180 (talk) 23:41, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I added it. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 00:41, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

How in the world did we miss that one, eh? :) Cinemaniac (talk • contribs • critique) 02:34, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Hiding in plain sight, I guess. :) Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 04:17, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Knock It Off vs Knock It Back

I'm not a Cockney but I do have some knowledge of London slang, and in my experience "Knock it off" means "Stop doing that". To drink something rapidly (usually in one go) is to "Knock it back". Compare Knock It Off vs Knock It Back.

How sure are you that "Knock It Off" in this context means to swig the drink? AncientBrit (talk) 02:30, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Neverhood

Is it notable that the game The Neverhood uses the song's tune quite extensively in a sequence with a monster known as the Weasel in game? Lemon Demon (talk) 10:51, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Unnecessary amount of American versions?

As this is, like most nursery rhymes, of British origin, do we need such a vast amount of American alternatives? Not only is it tiresome to look at it makes the article look untidy. How about we keep a select few of the more popular American versions, and tidy up (i.e. get rid of) the rest? Orphan Wiki 19:52, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree. They make the whole thing very hard to read. They should be deleted or moved to wikisource.--SabreBD (talk) 20:08, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, I've got rid of the majority and kept the more well known ones. Orphan Wiki 19:13, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Rosewater

I neither remember that detail, nor remember encountering in the novel anything so non-sequitur-ish as this mention.
I removed ". . . with the knowledge that he is tone deaf" w/o prejudice to an appropriate revision. It may be that it can't be included w/o too much detail: this is not the place to tell amusing stories abt the song, but to link to refs to it. A Rosewater ref is appropriate, but the phrase above adds nothing as it stands: it is a non-sequitur, since the difference in intention between humming it in someone's presence and doing so the that knowledge is speculative, since tone-deafness affects singing, but affects listening only when a recognition or imitation task is involved.
That said, only so much detail is justified; it's hard to know how sense can be made out of the inclusion of the tone-deafness mention without telling far to much of the story. If you can do so, your colleagues stand ready to be astounded by you.
--Jerzy•t 03:41, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

"Pop! goes the weasel" goes Jazz

The great pianist Sonny Clark quotes this tune in his piece "Cool Struttin'". He changes the last note of the phrase and it sounds very funny! You can find it on his album that is also named "Cool Struttin'" from 1958. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.7.130.99 (talk) 21:32, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Mulberry bush

Presumably the versions in which the cobbler's bench is replaced by the mulberry bush are due to cross-contamination with Here We Go Round the Mulberry Bush? —Hieronymus Illinensis (talk) 22:44, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

I think that is probably correct. I will have a look for a reliable source so that it can go into the article.--SabreBD (talk) 23:18, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

This has probably been covered by Iona and Peter Opie, and I'll try to dig out my copy of "Lore and Language of Schoolchildren" tomorrow. Rodhullandemu 23:22, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

The (UK) 2nd verse I knew as a child was

Round and round the Mulberry Bush,

In and out the Eagle,

That's the way the money goes,

Pop! goes the weasel.

And I was told it related to 2 pubs near Fleet Street and the profligacy of the local journalists. A nice story for which I know no referents, sadly, although it might fit better with the 'City Road' verse.

Sorry, more amusement value than actual use. ;) --94.212.2.245 (talk) 09:34, 26 August 2010 (UTC)