Talk:Jews

To discuss the infobox in the top right corner of the article, please visit Template talk:Infobox Jews.

Jewish languages

" ...Hebrew is the liturgical language of Judaism (termed l'shon ha-kodesh, "the holy tongue")... "

l'shon ha-kodesh means "the holy language" !

lashon (לשון) means:
1.tongue
2.language —Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.116.108.24 (talk) 18:52, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

FYI, the word "language" traces to English, through Norman and French, from Latin, "lingua" - which means "tongue". Thus, the word "language" itself literally means "tongue" (or "tongue-age"). The difference is that the word "language" was imported to the English language, while the word "tongue" is native to the English language. Likewise, the words "veal" and "beef" (boeuf) were imported from Normandy; the native English equivalents are "calf" and "cow". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.198.146.98 (talk) 04:52, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Math

The table in Jews#Population_centres is all cocked up. There is a line for “Europe” (1,506,000) and separate lines for nine European countries (totalling 1,351,400), then a “Total” line at the bottom which appears to sum them all (although the figure isn't a correct total of all lines). Likewise, “Asia (excl. Israel)” includes two or three other countries which may, or may not, be represented in the sum. —Michael Z. 2011-03-25 03:36 z

Main Image of Jew is not representative - only shows European Jews

Would it not be more worldview to show an collage of images of Jewish people from different ethnic groups. Especially Ethiopian Jews, Ugandan Jews, Yemeni Jews ? Because right now everyone is European. Yes I know you want famous people but it would be better to show the ethnic diversity and not the stereotype. --Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 12:09, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Well, let's see, we have only four people there atm (very small compared to other articles). Two are Ashkenazi and two are Sephardim (Lazarus and Maimonides), so it is decidedly more European. You are right we need more Mizrahim and Beta Israel (Ethiopian Jews) as well as some of the other groups, but there are definitely famous people from those groups, it's not like none are accomplished. =p Ofra Haza would be one to be included imho, she was a very famous Yemeni/Mizrahi Jewish singer. You could find more possible additions in the articles for each ethnic group Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 15:26, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

You could put Ofra Haza and Sammy Davis, Jr., or Lenny Kravitz or Just Ofra and Abatte Barihun. Then the only thing to complain about would be they are all musicians. --Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 16:17, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Lenny Kravitz is only Russian (Ashkenazi) Jewish on his dad's side (hence the half of Lenny Kravitz jokes) and Sammy Davis Jr. was a convert to Judaism. Abatte's article, oddly enough, doesn't actually say he is Beta Israel, just gives a lot of hints at it without an explicit statement. Poorly written article as well imo. The additions shouldn't all be musicians. There are many incredibly good Mizrahi singers, but we need some writers and politicians too. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 16:25, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

I will then definitely vote for Sammy, because Muhammad Ali is a convert to Islam so that doesn't diminish anything when it comes to Islam, why then if someone is a Jew? Also it would be good to have Mizrahi Jews, European, Converts. The more diverse the better. But considering the large Ethiopian Population at least one African Jew. 4 in total Einstein, Maimonides and Ethiopian (or Sammy) and Ofra. --Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 16:33, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

It is not as simple as that. Judaism is a religion, but we Jews are a nation/people/heritage or however you wish to describe it. You can be both a Jew and an atheist for instance or secular like many Israelis are. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 03:41, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

No, the infobox doesn't need entertainers etc., and the population of Ethiopian and African-American Jews (and even Yemeni Jews) was and is tiny compared to other groups. We've stuck with some of the most famous/influential Jews of all time in the box, and tried to have a gender balance. You'll need considerable consensus to add any images. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:21, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

What about mizrahim? They are a significant group, especially in Israel. Understand that I am going by the Israeli use of the term btw, which is sometimes akin to race-based (though they are all Jews from pretty much the same heritage). Why do we only have four here though? There are quite a few famous Jews in history. I can think of quite a few more influential than Ms. Lazarus who deserve a spot (like Theodor Herzl or Louis Brandeis for example, and there are more women for sure). =p Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 03:41, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

I'd love to have more Mizrahim, Ethiopian Jews, Bukharim, or any other kind of Jew. However, the infobox shouldn't be an affirmative action project; we need Jews who made a significant difference to Jewish/world history, and should be picking images on that basis. Regarding Lazarus, I'd also prefer someone more famous/influential, but the older discussion basically agreed on an equal balance of men and women, and Ashkenazim/non-Ashkenazim. Jayjg ^(talk) 04:01, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, but only one of each? We have four people here only. =p Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 04:11, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

I am not arguing for Sammy Davis Jr. being be placed in the composite image but Sammy Davis Jr.'s being a convert to Judaism would not present any obstacle as there is no distinction in Judaism between someone who is a convert to Judaism and someone who is born Jewish. Bus stop (talk) 04:17, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

So, propose the names of a couple of Jews who made a significant difference to Jewish/world history. Jayjg ^(talk) 04:31, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

@Bus: the distinction in Judaism is irrelevant. As I said, one way of thinking about it is along the lines of a racial designation really (How Israelis do it =p) or something like being Walloon or Flemish (heritages). Theodor Herzl, founder of Modern Zionism; Louis Brandeis, first Jewish Supreme Court Justice and many other things; David Ben-Gurion, Kissinger? Maybe Rabin as well. - non-serious suggestion: Jesus of Nazareth. =p Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 04:55, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

I dont know if wiki set the criteria that the image must only have in super famous people. The article is called Jews not famous Jews. It has nothing to do with affirmative action. Mizrahi Jews and Ethiopian Jews are constantly complaining about being marginalized. Why should the criteria for insertion rotate around "powerful or influential Jews", is that the criteria for being a representative of Jewish people? Yes I agree Einstein is perfect but we can then try and satisfy other criteria like ethnic diversity. When they have a image of the Israeli people (which is different from Jewish people I know) the images always try to represents the ethnic diversity of the people. Ethnic diversity in this users opinion outweighs having 4 European Jewish people. We can even expand the image and make it 6. But i feel Sammy Davis is a good call. Its not like I suggested Lisa Bonet, or Troy Beyer. And actually Jesus is the most powerful Jewish man hands down (obviously and ironically it presents other problems )--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 10:31, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Atheism

I think that it should be added to religion as minority. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.140.67.158 (talk) 13:43, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Well there are definitely secular and atheistic Jews.... Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 18:33, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

There are Jews of every imaginable religion. Atheism, however, is not a religion. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:21, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

It's still a religious belief though. You even have what I like to call evangelical atheists (you'll know'em when you see'em). It's, of course, not an organised religion of any sort (except in Metalocalypse) though if that is what you mean. :p Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 06:06, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Whether or not atheism is a religious belief is beyond the scope of this discussion. In any event, we both agree it's not an organized religion of any sort. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:15, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

'Avraham' & 'Yakov'

Jews will often use the spelling and pronunciation of 'Avraham' in place of 'Abraham', and 'Yakov' in place of 'Jacob'. This article should reference these alternatives by adding these Jewish names as such: Abraham ('Avraham'), Jacob ('Yakov'). - Brad Watson, Miami 65.3.238.158 (talk) 23:13, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Which Jews are you referring to specifically? Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 06:07, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

The Hebrew names of Abraham and Jacob are "Avraham" and "Ya'akov" respectively. However, this is English Wikipedia. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:16, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

why is there so less pictures of the jewish people on the top right?

There are so many personalities which are jews, there should be more pictures of jewish personalities than having only 4.--Karesu12340 (talk) 09:58, 16 July 2011 (UTC)