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Andy, you knew they were there and until this editor opposed you didn't really care
→‎U.S. Route 2 in Michigan: refuting more FUD
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::::Odd that I didn't know about that, when it's my comments that were hidden. <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 10:48, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
::::Odd that I didn't know about that, when it's my comments that were hidden. <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 10:48, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
:::::The fact is, neither of you are FAC delegates, so that's not your place to decide. Sweeping under the rug would also imply no link was left behind. Andy, you were well aware that they were moved, hence why you continued to respond on the talk page to those comments, without issue. Don't play coy. - '''[[User:Floydian|<font color="#5A5AC5">ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ</font>]]'''&nbsp;<sup>[[User_talk:Floydian|<font color="#3AAA3A">τ</font>]]</sup> <sub>[[Special:Contributions/Floydian|<font color="#3AAA3A">¢</font>]]</sub> 15:53, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
:::::The fact is, neither of you are FAC delegates, so that's not your place to decide. Sweeping under the rug would also imply no link was left behind. Andy, you were well aware that they were moved, hence why you continued to respond on the talk page to those comments, without issue. Don't play coy. - '''[[User:Floydian|<font color="#5A5AC5">ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ</font>]]'''&nbsp;<sup>[[User_talk:Floydian|<font color="#3AAA3A">τ</font>]]</sup> <sub>[[Special:Contributions/Floydian|<font color="#3AAA3A">¢</font>]]</sub> 15:53, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
::::::Once again Floydian, you grasp the wrong end of the stick when attempting to describe my feelings and thoughts; and once again in such a manner as to create a falsely negative picture of them. Funny how you never wrongly say anything positive. My comment above refers to a post on SandyGeorgia's talk page, which discusses me, but about which I have only recently become aware. How the fact that I'm not a FAC delegate is supposed to affect that is beyond me. <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 16:18, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Revision as of 16:18, 15 December 2011

U.S. Route 2 in Michigan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Nominator(s): Imzadi 1979  01:55, 16 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because it is one of the major highways in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. There isn't anything flashy about this roadway, but I think that the article is ready for review here. (P.S., my copy of the article from The Daily Mining Gazette lacks a page number, however the Portage Lake District Library in Houghton, MI, has been contacted to see what page it was on in the print edition.) Imzadi 1979  01:55, 16 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:49, 16 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Oppose (1(a). I am sure that the article is comprehensive and technically accurate, but the prose is not yet of featured standard. There are instances of clumsy phrasing, repetition, redundancies and occasional dodgy grammar; the following examples come from only the first quarter of the text, and it is likely that similar problems will arise in the rest:-

Lead
  • Problematic opening sentence with slight ambiguity in the initial phrasing and a repeated "that runs from".
  • "historic bridges that date back as far as the 1910s and 1920s." I don't think the words "as far as" are justified; the 1910s and 1920s are relatively recent history
Route description
  • Repetition: "US 2 is an important highway for Michigan, "provid[ing] the major western gateway to Michigan" and "serv[ing] an important role..."
  • Grammar: "Of US 2's 305.151 miles (491.093 km), it is divided..."
  • "in between is a section of US 2..." The words "of US 2" are redundant here. We're not talking about any other road here.
Western segment
  • All three paragraphs of the section begin "US 2...", as do successive sentences within the text. Try to use some variety of expression, to avoid the prose developing a mechanical feel.
  • "The section of US 2 that runs concurrently with M-64 was the location where the Michigan Department of Transportation (MDOT) recorded the lowest traffic volume along the entire length of the highway in the state; here 770 vehicles used the roadway daily on average in 2010." This wording is heavy-footed and verbose. Running on from the previous sentence, you could say "This concurrency has the lowest traffic volume along the entire length of the highway within the state; in 2010 the Michigan Department of Transportation (MDOT) recorded a daily average usage along the stretch of 770 vehicles".
  • This figure of 770 is not very useful in isolation, and needs to be compared with average daily usages along other stretches.
  • "where the waters meet" could be pipe-linked to Drainage basin
  • Grammar/punc: "Also located in the area are the Sylvania Wilderness and the Lac Vieux Desert Indian Reservation, which includes the Lac Vieux Desert Casino and Resort." If the "casino and resort" relates only to the reservation, shift the comma to after "Wilderness". Otherwise, "includes" → "include"
  • "leaves the Ottawa National Forest behind..." "behind" is unnecessary
  • Consecutive sentences beginning "US 2/US 141..."

Individually these are minor problems that can easily be fixed, but someone needs to go carefully through the remainder of the text, to pick up similar issues there. One non-prose problem: the map is not very informative as it stands. It does not indicate which areas are Michigan and which are Wisconsin, doesn't clarify the interstate line (there are unexplained blue and black lines). I suggest you clarify these matters, perhaps by expanding the caption. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brianboulton (talkcontribs)

(Sorry, I forgot to sign above) Brianboulton (talk) 21:57, 20 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment from the nominator: Juliancolton (talk · contribs) is working on copy editing the article for me. I will be out of town with family for the American Thanksgiving holiday, and I will be offline starting on Tuesday morning as a result. I should be able to check back in while on the road in a few days. Imzadi 1979  02:43, 22 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • I have returned home now, so things are back to normal for me. Imzadi 1979  23:53, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Between Juliancolton's copy edit of the full article, and some touchups by myself, all of the above prose comments have been addressed save one. I can't minimize the number of times "US 2" or its variants are used any further without sacrificing clarity. (We kinda need to repeat the name whenever an intersection roadway is mentioned to avoid confusing the reader as to which highway/roadway/trunkline is the subject of a sentence.) As for the traffic counts, MDOT doesn't report an average for the highway, just the measurements on each segment. The article as it stands now lists the highest and lowest traffic counts in the Route description where they occur along the progression of the description of the highway, which is a standard practice used in other Featured Articles about Michigan highways.
      As for the map, I'm not a GIS wiz, so the best I can do is request a new map. Imzadi 1979  00:56, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm not sure how you have answered my concern about the 770 vehicles, which statistic still stands in isolation and is therefore of little use. All the other points I raised have been dealt with satisfactorily, and the map is much better. I don't think I'll have time to go through the rest of the article, but in the light of your positive responses I have struck my oppose. How do you intend to answer the two outstanding opposes, which both appear to relate to one specific issue? Brianboulton (talk) 18:54, 6 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • This is part of an aggressive campaign by two editors to enforce the use of coordinates on articles for which there is no consensus, and is thus not actionable. See the talk page and linked pages. --Rschen7754 21:49, 6 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
        • The draft guideline they seek to enforce against this article, WP:WikiProject Geographical coordinates/Linear lists 5 options for listing geographic coordinate data in an article on a linear feature, the last of which is: "No coordinates", and the consensus of opinion from the U.S. Roads and Canada Roads projects is to avail ourselves of that option at this time. Imzadi 1979  22:06, 6 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
          • You continue to misrepresent the situation. Projects do not form their own consensus, per WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. This has been pointed out to you many times in recent weeks. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:13, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
            • You continue to ignore the stack of editors that don't care what your backwards interpretation of the situation is. You continue to ignore requests to provide "policies and guidelines [which] reflect established consensus..." to give your LOCALCONSENSUS argument any weight. This was requested back at the end of August.[1]. Go start an RfC and establish your consensus amongst the community, otherwise it doesn't exist and you're going off WP:SILENCE. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 17:03, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
              • I answered the question you cite back in August; and in text which another editor has removed for this page. HTH. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:24, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
              • What do you make of this? [2] --Rschen7754 21:39, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
                • We have a few issues here at work. On the matter of adding title coordinates, it wouldn't be proper to pick one set of coordinates as representative of the whole length of US 2 in the state of Michigan because it exists in two discontinuous segments in the state. Since we can't have two sets of title coordinates, I won't place any on this article lest we favor one segment over the other, end of story. As for the rest, we have dueling WikiProjects and no community consensus. If the U.S. Roads WikiProject can't form a consensus that coordinates are unnecessary in articles under its scope, then how can WikiProject Geographic coordinates form a consensus that linear features need to have them? And we suddenly have a situation where the draft guidance being used to request/require the inclusion of this data isn't being followed since it provides that editors may opt to add "no coordinates" to articles. Since you're advocating for a change in the status quo (US highway articles lack coordinate data tagging), the onus is on you to initiate an RfC to overturn that status quo. Imzadi 1979  22:17, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
                  • If you mean me; I'm not advocating any change to the status quo; the MoS already allows for coordinates in articles about roads; as you well know, having had this pointed out several times recently. What does WikiProject Geographic coordinates have to do with this? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 00:40, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
                • WP:LOCALCONSENSUS states: "For instance, unless they can convince the broader community that such action is right, participants in a WikiProject cannot decide that some generally accepted policy or guideline does not apply to articles within its scope." The problem is that there is no policy that requires the inclusion of coordinates in articles. There is no generally accepted guideline that states that linear features need to have coordinate data. There is only a draft guideline from a WikiProject devoted to adding coordinates to articles that has not been generally accepted as applying to roads articles at this time. I say that it hasn't been generally accepted because the overwhelming majority of the over 10,000 US road/highway articles lack coordinates, so LOCALCONSENSUS cuts two ways, Andy. The only way out is an RfC, which you've so far refused to start. Imzadi 1979  22:23, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
                  • You have this arse-about-face. Again. The MoS allows for coordinates in articles about roads. Your project colleagues insist that your local consensus forbids them. It cannot. An RfC is not needed to maintain the current MoS. You also ignore the FA criteria, to which I have ready referred in a comment which you removed from this page; and which local project consensus also cannot override. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 00:40, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
                    • The FA criteria do not require coordinates. M-185 (Michigan highway), an article to which you opposed in its FAC, was promoted last night without the addition of coordinate data. FA Criterion 1(b) states: "comprehensive: it neglects no major facts or details and places the subject in context". No major facts have been neglected as this article states where the subject is located. It just does not do so in a manner you'd like using blue-linked strings of numbers. I remain unpersuaded that displaying sets of geographic coordinates is necessary to make the article "comprehensive", so I have not added them. You've said your piece, I've said mine. It's time to let the delegates/director weigh in because circumstances won't change with any more discussion. I'm walking away from this point, feeling it has been addressed several times now. Imzadi 1979  00:56, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
        • Please feel free to point our where, in my objection to this FA, I invoked WP:LINEAR. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 00:45, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
        • I have added a weighted average AADT value computed using an Excel spreadsheet version of the AADT report from MDOT. The average is weighted by segment length because some segments MDOT measured were less than a half mile, and some as long as 10 miles. If that is not appropriate, please advise what I should do instead. Imzadi 1979  23:49, 6 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Image review


  • Oppose - This edit from the nominator, unilaterally removing the comments of oppose votes, is unethical. No comments on the article itself, but I must oppose this nomination because it is neither fair nor acceptable for nominators to do this. Either put it back, point to a statement where an FAC delegate explicitly stated that the comments should be removed, or I will take this to AN/I and bring it up when this is written up in the Signpost. Refactoring comments is a blockable offense. Sven Manguard Wha? 03:41, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You should be aware that the discussion surrounding the opposes (which is linked from the opposes) is entirely spill-over from discussions at MOS:RJL regarding coordinates on road articles. The nominator was not trying to sweep it under the rug, but rather trying to keep that discussion from dominating this nomination. The delegates would obviously check the link to see what the reasoning behind the oppose votes (which remain here) was. I do believe there is a greater need to assume good faith here. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 03:45, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
For what it's worth, the nominator notified a delegate right after he moved the discussion to the talk page. He moved the same comments (almost verbatim) from M-185, which was promoted just days ago. –Fredddie 04:16, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Had I seen that one in time, I'd have opposed that too. If discussions take up too much space, you collapse them, you don't sweep them under the rug. What the nominator is doing is unethical, plain and simple. Sven Manguard Wha? 09:16, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps the FA for M-185 should be revoked, at least until the objections are properly resolved? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:48, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Odd that I didn't know about that, when it's my comments that were hidden. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:48, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The fact is, neither of you are FAC delegates, so that's not your place to decide. Sweeping under the rug would also imply no link was left behind. Andy, you were well aware that they were moved, hence why you continued to respond on the talk page to those comments, without issue. Don't play coy. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 15:53, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Once again Floydian, you grasp the wrong end of the stick when attempting to describe my feelings and thoughts; and once again in such a manner as to create a falsely negative picture of them. Funny how you never wrongly say anything positive. My comment above refers to a post on SandyGeorgia's talk page, which discusses me, but about which I have only recently become aware. How the fact that I'm not a FAC delegate is supposed to affect that is beyond me. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:18, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]