Talk:Jean Grey

Main Profile Picture

I'm not too fond of the current Jean pic..it doesn't represent her well I think these would be some nice choices

• Cover of New X-men 134

Or maybe the collage of her from Phoenix Endsong? Something better then her just standing there in her Gold Team Outfit

agreed, #134. but unlikely since this is her Phoenix suit, most popular if that, then ,maaybe the Endsong first cover? it's better —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.184.162.132 (talk) 04:12, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I dislike the Land artwork because there are so many more classic images of Jean. This possible choice:

http://www.geocities.com/jeanxlogan/jean.jpg

would be better. Wiki articles have shown a tendency to default to Land's images whenever there is one avalable, even though there are better choices out there.

Really, though, a Cockrum, Byrne, or even a Neal Adams image would be most appropriate. 69.210.141.65 (talk) 19:42, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

How about this iconic image: http://1979semifinalist.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/027-dave-cockrum.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.226.171.6 (talk) 18:57, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

That image is a comic cover and does not meet the criteria for a main character image.Luminum (talk) 05:24, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Covers are used in other articles (see Mastermind). What criteria are you referring to? 70.226.171.6 (talk) 22:03, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

The superhero box image criteria are listed here and basically specify that the best image is a full-body, three-quarter angle image of the character with a clear or neutral background and in a costume that they are most recognizable in. As much as I don't like the Greg Land image that's up, it meets these criteria more so than anything else that's been suggested. For future reference, what is on another page isn't a justifiable reason for it to occur on another page, as specified here. Hope that helps clarify things! :) Luminum (talk) 02:18, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

I disagree that it doesn't meet the criteria. The background is not white, but it is relatively neutral. The image is not a 3/4 profile, but rather full frontal perspective. On all other counts, it meets the criteria perfectly. Oh, I guess her hair is slightly obscured by the logo. It is a classic and iconic image of Phoenix. It is probably one of the images most closely associated with Phoenix in the minds of any fan familiar with the history of the character (with the possible exception of a few Byrne images).

The fact that the logo obscures the character, her face is up and not forward or 3/4ths, the comic decals cover the extremities and that the other characters are involved in a sizable chunk of the image are problematic. It's essentially a good image of the comic, or the storyline, but not the most appropriate for a basic image of the character. I've found a better image that meets allt he requirements. Let's see how that does.Luminum (talk) 01:09, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

2¢ or so...

If we want to go over this again, it may be best to start a 5th thread since we've got:

• #Main Profile Picture (this one which has had spurts of activity)
• #Jean SHB pic (2006)
• #Jean pic vote (2006 and also got a recent spurt)
• #New jean Pic vote (2006)

And do that before changing the image.

Frankly: The current image meets the project guidelines. Changing it seems to be an exercise in either change for the sake of change or "Why the hades is it Land?" Neither is really a reason to change the image.

- J Greb (talk) 01:35, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Queen?

I'm curious as to whether Jean Grey is an intentional anagram of Jane Grey, the first Queen of England. It probably shouldn't go it the article unless somebody finds confirmation, but is a interesting WikiJump nonetheless. --Jwanders 14:44, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

---

She is Not In The "kings & Queens" book, isbn: 1-903817-21-8

Psychokineticist???

Is "psychokineticist" even a word (in reference to Category:Fictional psychokineticists)? Shouldn't it be "psychokinetic" (like it used to be "telekinetic" as in "Jean is a telekinetic" not a "telekineticist")?

In my experience, Marvel has always used "telekinetic" in the mainstream continuity, and "psychokinticist" in the Ultimate line only. 69.210.137.196 (talk) 01:14, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

DEAD ?

Ok I love the X-men comics, but come on Marvel give Jean a break, she has died to many time? but my real question is does anyone know if she is returning (with X3 being made it has to be soon)

• Dead god I hope not. Let her stay gone this time. Also, she doesn't have to come back becomes her film counterpart isn't dead.

• Actually, that is incorrect. She is officially in X3, turning out to be the Dark Phoenix, even turning bullets upon Magneto. I believe Famke is doing a FANTASTIC job of portraying her. Anyway, I think she should come back and just be back for like twenty years.

Endsong

Ok, the new edited section on Endsong is better in terms of length, but in terms of style is just as bad as the previous version. Can someone who's read the issues clean this up? I'll do it if no one else will, but I'd prefer an informed writer do it. Pitr 07:24, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Endsong(cont.)

On a related note to Endsong, can anyone add to the articles the issues in which this takes place? or is this a seperate mini-series altogether?

It was a five issue miniseries. --DrBat 01:53, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Slight change in wording

Jean Grey was not, as the article claimed, the "one true host" of the Phoenix Force. A scan of an Excalibur issue here proves that Rachel was called that at one point, however. Perhaps there was confusion. In any case, it was an inaccurate statement so I modified it.

She is the 'true host' of the Phoenix Force, shown in Endsong when Phoenix declared, "You and I are One." I agree that she is not the 'one true host', but she is the 'true host'.

Uh... if Endsong doesn't call her the "true host" (whatever the heck that even means), then you can't really use Endsong as evidence that she is this "true host." So she and the Phoenix Force are "One..." that doesn't imply anything about "true host-ness," it just implies they've merged. Joeyconnick 23:44, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

To me the quote "you and I are one" means that Jean = Phoenix, and vice versa! It is her destiny, according to the writer of Endsong in a recent interview about the sequel to Endsong.

Powers and Abilities

"Phoenix can also (though she never did this) revive, absorb, rechannel and preserve any kind of lifeform." I disagree; Phoenix has revived Jean Grey's body, shown in Endsong. I removed the parenthetical note.

"Jean is considered to be one of the Earth's most powerful telepathic minds. It has been stated that Jean Grey's powers outclass the most powerful telepathic mutant, Professor X due to her cosmic class powers[issue # needed]. " I disagree with this. Charles Xavier has repeatedly been referred to as the most powerful telepath in the world. Jean doesn't outclass him, but the Phoenix does. It is, after all, a cosmic entity. Jealousghost 21:19, 15 November 2006 (UTC)jealousghost 11/15/06

News flash. Jean is an OMEGA-LEVEL telepath. What don't you people get without that. While he is way more experienced than Jean, Jean is stronger than him. With Phoenix, Jean's psychic powers are astronomical beyond Omega-level mutantcy. Elemental5293 (talk) 21:26, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

It's been directly stated in numerous comics published by Marvel over the years that Xavier is the stronger telepath. If she's "stronger than him," there needs to be a source that verifies that (not implies it). Otherwise, it's an opinion. --4.249.84.74 (talk) 18:00, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Phoenix revived Jean Grey in the cartoon series too, after she had been obliterated by the Shi'ar. Phoenix did this by taking a portion of "flame" or "radiance" from other x-men.

She did revive her, regardless of how she did it. Baaleos 14:34, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

A bit unwieldy

This article is 43 kilobytes, maybe it's a time for it to get condensed a little. Kusonaga 10:57, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Minor Edits

I tried to condense and rearrange. There was a paragraph in Romance about her attending the university, even though it didn't have any real relevance to her romances. I condenced the paragraph to a sentence.

The Phoenix section is really difficult to revise, considering it is one of the biggest aspects of Jean's life. I left it lengthy, and I urge others to do so as well.

Jean's name is Jean

{I deleted an obscene and contentless comment}.

Jean Grey's primary name is "Jean Grey" not "Phoenix" so please use Jean Grey to refer to the character. Here are two quotes and a dialogue that show the importance of Jean simply being Jean.

Jean: "You might believe that. But I've already LIVED my worst nightmare...MORE than ONCE. Would you like me to SHARE it with you? In my worst nightmare...I'm JUST myself. Not the PHOENIX. Not MADELYNE PRYOR. Not even MARVEL GIRL. I'm JUST Jean Grey...one of the most POWERFUL PSI'S on the PLANET. The frightening thing is, in my dream, I'm not afraid to LOSE MYSELF in my mutant ability. I CUT LOOSE. Completely. THAT'S my worst nightmare. SEE?" (Uncanny X-Men #300)

Wolverine: Jean, these kids don't know what's what, but you and me, we've seen it all before. You ain't here as anybody's servant...yer the Phoenix. Yer an A-grade telekinetic talent tapped into a cosmic power source. But yer still Jean Grey-Summers! (New X-Men 154)

Jean: I'm going now, Scott. I'm so scared... Scott: Who are you? Jean: ... Jean. Jean Grey. Scott: That's right, you're Jean Grey, and always will be. No matter what happens, no matter where you go or how you grow or what the cosmos tell you. (Phoenix Ensong #5) Facto 03:04, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

But her codename is still Phoenix. When she wasn't connected to the Phoenix force, she still adopted the codename Phoenix after The Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix to honor Rachel (who assumed the mantle of Phoenix in her abscence). She also assumed the identity to empower herself. She never quit her using her codename. And consider that in Morrison's New X-Men storyline, Jean is referred to as the Phoenix by friends, enemies, and even in the character roll-call. The Phoenix Force itself tells Professor X, that "Jean is the only house where I live". In Endsong she tells the Phoenix Force "I'm you". Also, in every alternate Marvel reality, Jean is Phoenix. In 2005's What If, Professor X says that the comatose teenage Jean is a force that resonates through the multiverse, and when she awakens from her coma, she is Phoenix. Jean is the Phoenix, always was, always will be. MetaStar 04:22, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Jean's current codename is Phoenix but her original codename was Marvel Girl. But Jean Grey is the name that sticks with her throughout her comic book history, in X-Men videogames, X-Men movies, X-Men cartoons, etc. The title of the article is also Jean Grey not Phoenix. Also, why do you want to use that picture of Jean from X-Men: The End as the main picture. I think that should be moved to the X-Men: The End section (which doesn't exist yet). X-Men: The End is non-canonical, and also has more than one Phoenix. {{spoiler-about|(X-Men: The End Vol. 3 Issue 5)}} Now and forever -- -- Cassandra Nova is Phoenix! (after she blasts a hole through Jean's chest)

So there's only one Jean Grey in the comics, and several Phoenixes. Jean Grey is her most unique, most established, and most frequent label, and it should be used first and Phoenix second. But I'll hold off editing Phoenix back to Jean Grey until this discussion is over. Facto 05:25, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

her current codename *is* Phoenix (she's still kinda dead right). rachel grey is also phoenix. it was revealed jean grey is the "white phoenix." the name of the article is Jean Grey. i think this article should very much start like Dick Grayson's.

"Jean Grey is the fictional superhero and mutant in the Marvel Universe. She has used several codenames, including Phoenix and Marvel Girl, as a fouding member of the X-Men."

etc etc.

why refer to her as phoenix when Phoenix (comics) doesn't even redirect here. plus, cassandra nova is the phoenix... now and forever! Exvicious 11:57, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

OMG, a Jean discussion! Can I say a few things? Cool. Jean's not dead, she's off finding the remains of the Phoenix Force that the Shi'ar scattered (see Endsong # 5). C. Nova's only the Phoenix in the X-men the End (which is an alternate future, and she merged which Rachel, not Jean). I think that the Phoenix (comics) page refers soley to Phoenix Force. Rachel isn't Phoenix, she lost the force back in Cable, and is Marvel Girl now. And the Official x-men website www.uncannyxmen.net has Jean's profile under "Phoenix IV" . But, the biggest thing is when you have the Phoenix Force, you become Phoenix. They've pretty much established in Endsong that Jean IS the Phoenix Force. Thanks for letting me rant, see ya :) Coronis 14:00, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Again... there are several different Phoenixes who have run around the Marvel U, but (discounting alternate versions from alternate universes) only one Jean Grey. Rachel might not be calling herself Phoenix these days but she's sure manifesting the Phoenix effect a lot in Uncanny X-Men right now, plus the Shi'ar just went after her and her family because of her connection to the Phoenix Force. On top of all that, Jean went by Marvel Girl for about two decades and since being resurrected has, on top of sometimes choosing to go by Phoenix, also chosen Marvel Girl as an alias on top of choosing to have no superheroic alias at all. Yet she has never chosen not to call herself Jean Grey, nor do I think a good argument can be made (especially given the quotations above) that she thinks of herself as (the) Phoenix first and Jean Grey second. Phoenix is the codename, the alias, Jean is who she is. I'm not saying that doesn't mean she isn't merged with the Phoenix Force or that she doesn't have access to the Phoenix Force or whatever but all the stories regarding her struggles with the Phoenix Force are specifically about how it is her humanity, her being, her "Jean Grey-ness" which keeps it in check. So she should be referred to as Jean Grey, with a list of her various aliases, especially in this article. Given there's copious, copious amounts of information in the Phoenix Force (comics) and Dark Phoenix Saga articles detailing Jean's relationship with the Phoenix Force, I think that's only reasonable. Joeyconnick 18:51, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

One small point here: Not everyone keeps up with all the latest developments in comic books. When I stopped reading more than a decade ago, another character was known as the Phoenix (I don't honestly remember the other woman's name, though), not Jean Grey. At the time the going storyline was that Jean had been replaced by the Phoenix Force, so she had never truly been the Phoenix at all. Stick with Jean Grey, as it just makes more sense to a wider group of possible readers. Sxeptomaniac 20:40, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Don't know if this makes any sense as I'm not a big fan, but: how about referring to Jean as 'Jean' when discussing her pre-transformation; and then use 'Phoenix' when referring to her post-transformation? ~ Flooch 23:53, 21 May

2006 (UTC)

I think what some people are forgetting here is that when Jean first manifested the Phoenix powers after saving the X-Men from the radiation, Jean reached her ultimate potential as a mutant. All of the psychic blocks were torn down and she became a being of pure thought/energy. The reason that they changed things was because Marvel's editors didn't think that stripping her of her powers at the end of the Dark Phoenix Saga was a just punishment for commiting genocide. So the whole convoluted Phoenix impersonating Jean came about so that they could bring her back and absolve her of the actions of the Phoenix. Now they seem to be coming back on track and making Jean and Phoenix one and the same. The way that it should have been all along. Drunknesmonsta (talk) 22:10, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, it's true that Jean's name is Jean. Her birth name is Jean Grey, but how about her codename? She took it herself after she had encountered Rachel in the future, and now Rachel and Jean are changing codenames (Rachel used to be Phoenix and Jean used to be Marvel Girl. Jean took Phoenix codename in honor for Rachel, and Rachel took Marvel Girl codename in honor of Jean.). Some quotations refer to her Phoenix codename, like in Phoenix Endsong. When she encounters Wolverine, Wolverine asked whether she is Jean or Phoenix, she stated: "I am always Jean Grey and always the Phoenix." When she rises from the ice, Phoenix Force thought that she would be helpless without its aid. But Jean stated: "I'm you; don't you remember? Now get out of that stupid body!". And Phoenix Force itself takes the physical appearance of Jean for its image. They are now inseparable characters, as they have ultimately merged. Rachel herself stated that Jean is the Phoenix, as she said: "I'm not my mother. I'm not Phoenix. I'm my own woman... and before I'm done... they'll wish I were the Phoenix." That makes Jean Grey-Summers is Phoenix. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Forestlicious (talk • contribs) 14:19, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Jean SHB pic

Image:WhitePhoenix.jpg: Again we have a tug-of-war with another SHB pic. Since it worked so well on the Huntress page, perhaps a third-party opinion would help. Maybe we could use Jean's last official appearance from Endsong? It's a current pic, it shows Jean's humanity, and its still art by Greg Land. What does everyone think (anything to end the drama)? Coronis 02:30, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I'll go along with that. MetaStar 01:03, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

The End image is an alternate reality, so from the getgo it can't be the SHB image.

She's only worn that white costume twice, at the end of "Here Comes Tommorow" and at the end of Endsong. The other image shows all her other incarnations, and represents Jean's history better. --DrBat 01:08, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Of course YOU don't agree. And your info is totally false. Endsong is part of the mainstream continuity. Rachel even mentions the events of endsong in Uncanny X-Men. I've also noticed that you're violating the three-revert rule on any of the pages I've edited. Guarding "your" articles is very immature. MetaStar 01:28, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Get your facts straight. I was referring to your image from the X-Men: The End series as being an alternate reality. And again, as for the white costume, she has only worn it twice. The other Endsong image also better represents her history.

And you're a fine one to talk about your immaturity, with your barrage of childish insults. --DrBat 01:30, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Awww, she's so pretty! Let's use her. She looks evil in the main picture, and Jean shouldn't look evil. She's Rachel's mom for goodness sakes. MarvelousGirl 04:32, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I find it highly suspicious a new user happens to register right now, and then all she does is continue to make the same reverts MetaStar made. (and btw, I forgot to log out of my brother's account before I made the edit, but that was me who changed the image. )--DrBat 19:51, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Not again! DrBat let it go. We both got a 24 hour ban becuase of this, and your at it again? And now your trashing users just because they picked the pic Coronis set up? You have issues dude, major issues. MetaStar 22:29, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

like I said before, I found it highly suspicious that a new user would suddenly register and start making the exact same changes you made. --DrBat 00:20, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Not again! User:MetaStar and User:DrBat why do you two insist on dragging this out. I suggested the picture of White Phoenix to alleviate the bickering, not stir it up more. It's not fun to see the edit war you two are creating (this talk page is becoming downright hostile). If you two don't act like adults and come to a sensible solution, I'm going to get an admin and we'll have a vote (just like in Huntress) and the decision will be taken out of both your hands. Coronis 22:38, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I've already stated my argument; she's only worn the white costume twice. The red costume is far more significant to the character.

Furthermore, despite attempting to talk politely and maturely to MetaStar, MetaStar has been nothing but rude and insulting. Check her talk page if you don't believe me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:MetaStar --DrBat 00:27, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Im a GUY! MetaStar 00:32, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I was just trying to help and I can see your point. It just the constant reversions are getting slightly annoying so I was trying to find a solution that might appease BOTH of you. If you feel the current pic is better, then I will happily go along with that. I wasn't singling you out, MetaStar is also part of this. I can see where you feel abused (and rightly so), and I am sure had I been the one getting called names, I would be less than thrilled about allowing MetaStar to keep his pics up while yours get taken down. My only complaint is the thing about User:MarvelousGirl being "suspicious", she is my cousin (she was on my computer just a few hours ago, and she thought you were calling her a sockpuppet), and spent a lot of time on wikipedia with me, so she saw all of edit wars on Jean and Rachel's articles (I said I wasn't getting into it, but she really wanted to help out) Coronis 00:47, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I just assumed, because she started making edits to the articles right when MetaStar was doing his reversions. Anyway, I'm really sorry for the misunderstanding there. --DrBat 01:01, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Hello everyone, I'm new so bear with me. But the White Costume has been worn more than twice. Voila, a reference! http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b208/ggnimages/Fave%20Characters/phoenix90.jpg I believe it to me much more significant to the character than the other color costumes. Adding to that, perhaps a section should be added regarding her costumes? --jealousghost 04:29, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Jean pic vote

okay let's vote. i'm tired of the back and forth. it seems like you both just want to change because the other changed the pic. so let's vote, then it doesn't matter what metastar or drbat wants::

• Greg Land from Endsong
• White Phoenix
• X-Men: The End

Exvicious 01:11, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Greg Land from Endsong--DrBat 01:28, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Greg Land from Endsong Joeyconnick 06:47, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

White Phoenix CovenantD 18:20, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Greg Land from Endsong --DDG 20:32, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Greg Land from Endsong Badbilltucker 20:00, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't like Greg Land from Endsong it has Jean but it adds Cyclops and he doesn't belong. I vote for finding another pic cause White Phoenix is too thin vertically and I don't like X-Men: The End which has Jean with short hair. Facto 22:18, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

It shows key moments of Jean's life, some of which include her romance with Cyclops. --DrBat 23:13, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

If she likes him so much, she should marry him! Am I right? --Chris Griswold 19:43, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Rather redundantly (seeing as how the only one who wanted to change was User:MetaStar, voting is closed! 'endsong' wins 4 to 1. Exvicious 22:59, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Boy, you must be blind. There's two other people who wanted something other than Greg Land. CovenantD 01:29, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

they should've spoke up when we had the vote then facto just said he hated everything and you're the only one who voted for a different picture. which was also by greg land--Exvicious 19:02, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

User Dstorres insists in disrespecting the pic vote. —Lesfer ^(talk/@) 05:54, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Please assume good faith when dealing with other editors. See Wikipedia:Assume good faith for the guidelines on this. Dstorres's preferred pic isn't even a choice in the vote. I think we need to compile more choices and have a revote. Facto 06:02, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

• Thank you for the support Facto. I wasn't even aware of this issue until Lesfer pointed it out to me last night or I would have been more understanding. I agree with you and would like a new vote. Dstorres

I vote against any image by Greg Land. I think Jean should be portrayed by Byrne, Cockrum, or Neal Adams, since they created so many iconic images of her. Perhaps an image of Jean from UXM 122 chasing after Proteus? 69.210.141.65 (talk) 19:51, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

confusing

I know it is supposed to be confusing, since Claremont is such a fan of clones and daughters and sons of future timelines and entities linving in a character's body, but switching from calling the character Jean Gray on one paragraph to Phoenix on another only makes things more confising!!

I propose to call the character Jean Gray in all paragraphs, unless we're talking about the firebird thing alone. If it is important to point that we're talking about a Phoenix-influenced Jean Gray, I think we could call her "Jean Gray/Phoenix", then. Imagine that we are writting this for a person with no idea of who this characters are.

--201.114.99.246 03:17, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

For the record, her family name is Grey with an E not A. Dstorres

X3: Jean's Death Speculation (SPOILER WARNING)

{{spoiler}} At the end of the X3 section, there is some speculation regarding whether Wolverine stabs Jean with his claws, or a cure needle. I don't know if this is necessary. The only physical object near Jean that wasn't being atomized was Wolverine himself, because adamantium is indestructible, and his body was regenerating fast enough. The cure needle would have suffered the same fate.

Just checking if there are any objections. StellarFury 07:06, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Wolverine stabs Jean with his claws. Otherwise she wouldn't be dead at the end of the movie. The cure needle would not have killed her. But we see Jean Grey's tombstone along with Scott Summers'. Facto 07:12, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the argument is she said "save me, " wolverine cures her, and they fake her death so the human's won't come looking for her. I think it would be better if she's dead. Every major character that came back could be alive anyway. Professor X transferred his brain, we never actually see cyclops die, and the jean grey cure thing. Exvicious 18:32, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

After Jean falls you can clearly see Wolverine's claws so there is no chance that they "faked" Jean's death. For the record. Dstorres

True. It's not as if that sort of thing might not kill her. --Chris Griswold 00:46, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, A cure needle wouldnt destroy Phoenix, Phoenix is essentially just a "Multiple Personality". A cure needle would indeed remove her powers, but phoenix would still be inside her mind, just a powerless violent alter ego. When he withdraws his claws from her chest, we see blood on his hands, obviously hers, since his skin heals too fast for him to bleed much.Baaleos 12:33, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Jean comes back its a no brainer her gravestone says "jean grey-summers she will rise again"--Cerebra 19:34, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Since this is in the x3 section of this talk page... No it isn't. It was just on a few seconds ago and it just lists her name.

Given the fact that Jean Grey dies and comes back to life about four times before breakfast every morning in the comics, I'm not entirely sure what the big deal is. :) EVula // talk // ☯ // 19:50, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Technically, Jean has only died once in New X-Men #150, which I must mention was upsetting. I know that Jean remembers "her death" on the death but it wasn't Jean who died. If they were going to give a great character one of the lamest deaths just for shock value and officially make Scott and Emma sleep with one another, they should've let "Jean" stay "dead" in Uncanny X-Men #137. Now that was a good death. Elemental5293 (talk) 21:31, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Given that Jean Grey has died many times in the comices, just because she was stabbed in the chest by Wolverine (which is the most loced character and i don't get why) it is ver possible that she can come back to life. Really people look her up and see that many ways she has come back to exsistance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.70.159.244 (talk) 09:51, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

X3: Phoenix Speculation (SPOILER WARNING)

"However, the Phoenix is also probably an external cosmic force that inhabited her and tapped into her unlimited potential, as many a time in X2, she displayed the fiery energy of the Phoenix in her eyes, and most notably, she appeared to be engulfed in flames at the end just before she supposedly drowned. Another fact that further proves this is the fact that the faint outline of a Phoenix was seen flying over the waters of the Alkali Lake, at the end, just before the credits came out. It is the Phoenix who kills Scott (Cyclops) and later Xavier."

I think the above is speculation trying to make what we know about Jean from X-Men comics fit with the events in X3. Yes we see hints of Phoenix in Jean's eyes and in the water but this is not proof that Jean is possesed by an alien force. We know that the movies resemble to comics but need not adhere to them directly. If there are future movies they will have to decide how to treat this but God knows that there are so many Universes and lifetimes of Jean you could almost do anything and it would have been on one book or another.

mice 20:43, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

The above has been cleaned up quite a bit ans its a lot better. I still have to nit pick though.

"In X-Men: The Last Stand, she appears in a form similar to Dark Phoenix, but is merely called the Phoenix and exhibits Phoenix-level powers."

I agree that Jean definitely makes the transition to Dark Phoenix or something a lot like that in X3. However, much like many characters in this movie (Kitty, Colossus, to name 2) their hero names are not used. I don't think anyone refers to Jean as Phoenix in this or any of the X* movies at least not verbally. If I'm just splitting hairs just tell me. We all know who she is so perhaps it doesn't matter.

mice 06:07, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Professor X refers to her has phoenix, or at least mentions the Phoenix alter ego when shes unconscious. There are alternate versions of the House battle Phoenix vs Xavier, and it has psychic voices on it, in the psychic dialogue, Jean looses control to the Phoenix, and she says in a "screechy" voice. "Now and forever...I am PHOENIX." This is also the only time where Phoenix is talked to directly, and refered to by name. (Professor addresses her with telepathy and says "Phoenix!! Bring Jean back!!" Baaleos 12:30, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Image problems

The point has been made on the Wikiproject talk page that this article is having image trouble, featuring poorly illustrative images than run close to violating Fair Use, and focusing on newer images and images of Phoenix rather than Jean Grey. I'd like to work with others to redress this. First of all, I would like to see a solo picture of Jean Grey in the SHB, not Phoenix. Personally, I'd like to see her in the last X-Men uniform she wore, with the grey sweater and the black leather jacket. Thoughts? --Chris Griswold 00:46, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Image:Riotatxavier's.jpg You mean this one? --Facto 01:11, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

That one. --Chris Griswold 01:16, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I actually disagree, though I see the need for some kind of solution on this issue. All other issues aside, I think the last picture we had was very illustrative of Jean Grey in many of her incarnations over the past several decades, focusing on the role for which she is best known: Phoenix. Frankly, the Phoenix and the Dark Phoenix saga are defining events in Jean Grey's character, and it is absolutely justifiable to put an image of Phoenix in the SHB. Like I said, though, I like the previous one because it wasn't ONLY Phoenix that was in the picture. The Phoenix costume is synonymous with Jean Grey like no other costume is.

Just my thoughts. I'm curious to see what other people think. -Vontafeijos 04:00, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Does it have the proper tag? —Lesfer ^(talk/@) 05:24, 10 June 2006 (UTC) Image:Grey Hughes.jpg

Can we use fanart (the Grey-Hughes image)? Yes, I know it's by AH!, a professional artist, but it's still fanart. - SoM 00:34, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

What about the Jean art by Ethan Van Sciver? NeoCoronis 00:23, 11 June 2006 (UTC) Image:PhoenixNX134.jpg

She never wore that costume in-comic (it was a cover for an abandoned Phoenix mini that they used up as a NXM cover rather than letting it go to waste). - SoM 00:34, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Not only has she worn that costume for a short period of time, but the likelihood of her wearing it in the future is very rare, with the X-Men dropping the leather outfits after Morrison left the series. --DrBat 00:32, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, she hasn't worn the black costume since New X-Men #150. Since Jean's current costume is the classic Phoenix costume, maybe we should use a pic with her in it, like maybe the cover to Uncanny X-Men # 354. I have that one and lots more Jean pics if needed :) NeoCoronis 00:50, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Give us some samples? I'd like to see her in something classic green Phoenix, please...  ;-) CovenantD 01:16, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Heres a few from my scans collection NeoCoronis 01:56, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

• Green Phoenix Costume Jean
• Marvel Girl/Green Phoenix hybrid costume
• Red Phoenix costume
• Green Phoenix costume variant of Red Phoenix with B/W background
• Green Phoenix, Adam Hughes art
• Green Phoenix with psychic aura

This one was added by User:Dstorres

• Green Phoenix, Greg Land art

I prefer the Green Phoenix Greg Land art uploaded by Dstorres, or the one that we had before with the multiple incarnations. -Vontafeijos 18:33, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Im leaning towards Green Phoenix costume variant of Red Phoenix with B/W background or Green Phoenix Costume Jean. Anyone else have an opinion on this? NeoCoronis 18:38, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I like the Greg Land one. I would like the Phoenix Endsong with B/W background, but as the background contains prominent images of other characters, it is both confusing and very questionably fair use. --DDG 18:47, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Definitely the Green Phoenix, Greg Land art. This is probably her best known look and lacks the cartoony quality of Green Phoenix Costume Jean. CovenantD 18:55, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

It's not though (and this applies to all the Greg Land pics), because the Phoenix symbol is HUGE, whereas on the actual green Phoenix costume (as opposed to a recoloured red one), it's tiny and contained within a black neck-area, as shown in the Cockrum pic. - SoM 20:44, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, it was just the original cover (which had her wearing the red outfit) recolored. --DrBat 21:00, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I uploaded a edited version of the Phoenix Endsong with the B/W background, no characters in the back. NeoCoronis 20:37, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't altering the picture violate "fair use" though? Don't get me wrong, I like the pic, I just don't want to use anything that would have to be pulled. CovenantD 20:46, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

No. It's even better when we crop the image. I like this last one by NeoCoronis. —Lesfer ^(talk/@) 21:28, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

So, would anyone have a problem with using Phoenix Endsong with the B/W background for the SHB pic? NeoCoronis 03:21, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I feel that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Jean.png reflects Jean's history and powers much better than any other picture. However, if you must, then use Phoenix Endsong with the B/W background. Anything is better than the current picture, which does not do justice to the artistic and dramatic significance of Jean Grey in the X-men universe. Before this issue is resolved, I would like to temporarily return the picture back to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Jean.png. To: ExcaliDragon, really, the current picture is awful. Jean looks like an amateur student, instead of the omega-level mutant with one of the richest history among X-men. Baderyp 13:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

POV much? And Jean has never worn the Dark Phoenix costume - she's worn a red costume twice - an X-Factor red costume with yellow X over it, and the redesigned Phoenix costume of the X-Men: Revolution period. Phoenix has, Rachel had, not Jean. Ergo, not representative.- ExcaliDragon 02:22, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Agree with Baderyp. I'm not a huge fan of the edited B&W background one... the stripes made sense when the other characters were in the image, but now they're just strange looking. When the other characters are in the image, though, they're distracting. It's still way better than the other one uploaded by Griswold. -Vontafeijos 19:17, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Which picture do you think I uploaded? --Chris Griswold 19:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Oops. I meant the Riot at Xavier's one. Sorry about that. -Vontafeijos 20:33, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

We have a lot of SHB pic changing going on, should we have a vote and pick one picture for the SHB, so (hopefully) it won't be a different picture every hour? NeoCoronis 13:57, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

meh. what's the point. no one respects the vote anyway. Exvicious 09:49, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Spoken version of Jean Grey

The spoken version of the article is up, if you have any comments let me know. I didn't think it would take 52 minutes for me to read it all. --Facto 07:01, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Breathier, please. Make it sexy. --Chris Griswold 07:50, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

That .ogg soundfile for is apparently a machine being poorly recorded. It's like someone recorded themselves whilst using a synthesizer, or some other device that messes up one's voice. Isn't there...like...some sort of policy against unintelligible spoken article files? ACS (Wikipedian) 20:14, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Glad to see this comment of mine was ignored. Talk pages at their best. Anyway, I don't know about you two, but I have a fierce prejudice against additions that hurt more than help. Having no sound file would be better presenting Facto's Robotalk. I'm removing it. ACS (Wikipedian); Talk to the Ace. See what I've edited. 00:18, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Cable

Since when is Cable her biological son? Madelyne is Cable's mother, so at best Jean is an aunt. --DrBat 00:12, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Don't you know Madelyne's just a part of Jean Grey. --Facto 00:18, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, Jean absorbed MP post-Inferno, but expelled her in the Judgement War, allowing Nate Grey to later temporarily resurrect her before an Evil Alternate Jean knocked her back to the psi-plane (where she'd tell Cable she couldn't physically manifest any more) and took her place.

Jean's certainly his adoptive mother though, given that "Redd" raised him with "Slym" for the first twelve years or so of his life... - SoM 00:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Plus, D'spayre told Cable that Jean was his mother in blood, just not in spirit. And in Apocalypse the Twelve, Apocalypse referred to Jean and Cable as the Mother and Son component of his machine. Also Madelyne's being a genetic copy of Jean means that Cable is the biological son of Jean and Cyclops by proxy (Jean just didn't give birth to Cable). NeoCoronis 03:12, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

By extension, that makes Stryfe Jean's son as well, since we're counting clones as, biologically, the same as the originals. EVula 03:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Let's say "genetic son" so as not to confuse it with her having given birth to him. --Chris Griswold 08:14, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Isn't that the same as saying that my aunt would also be my mother, if the two were genetically identical? Madelyne gave birth to Nathan, not Jean. --DrBat 00:05, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

No; clones aren't the same as siblings. Even twins have differences; clones do not (at least, not in the X-comics). EVula 00:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

According to wikipedia: "Identical twins have identical DNA but differing environmental influences throughout their lives affect which genes are switched on or off." --DrBat 00:49, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

But in the comics, a clone is created from a donor's DNA, and is completely identical to the donor (twins do have subtle gentic differences). Any child conceived by the clone is also progeny of the donor. For example, if I was cloned (using the comic book cloning technology), and my clone had a kid, then kid's DNA would be half his mother's, and half mine. Even though I had no part in the child's conception, genetically he would be my son. Also this is just a wierd fact I learned from my genetics professor, "If identical twin brothers married identical twin sisters, their offspring would be so genetically similar, that they would almost be siblings instead of cousins". NeoCoronis 01:19, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Should we just list Cable as "son of clone"? --DrBat 01:48, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I was just about to suggest the same thing. Does this mean Stryfe is "alternate-future clone of son of clone"? and Tyler is "alternate-future grandson of clone"--Chris Griswold 02:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

That'd be fine, it would accurately depict Cable's relationship with Jean, just include the fact that Jean is his adoptive mother too (Jean raised him for twelve years, and loved him as her son, and several comics referred to him as Jean's son), so "adoptive son/son of clone" would be best. NeoCoronis 02:02, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

What are you guys smoking? Clones are artificial identical twins but are exact spinoffs of the original. Jean is Cable's mother. In the cloning process, the person takes the egg out of a woman, removes every drop of genetic material in it and places the genetic material of someone's body cell, for example Jean's, and inserts it within the egg. They let the egg and zygote material get situated before they insert it into the host mother who delivers the baby, Madelyne, who turns out to an precisely exact copy of the the donor, Jean. So both Jean and Madelyne are both Cable's birth mother but Jean actually raised him along with Scott between the time Madelyne died in Inferno and Cable was infected by Apocalypse's T.O. virus and had to go into the future, raised him more for like 13 years as Redd Dayspring, and when he came back to the present resumed her maternal duties. So, Jean has been more of a mother to Cable than Madelyne ever was but that isn't Madelyne's fault. If you had to name one mother of Cable it would have to be Jean because of that even though Madelyne gave birth to him. Elemental5293 (talk) 21:46, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Costumes

Since its been a point of argument.

A few caveats - these are not absolutely complete listings. I'm ignoring short lived (six issues or less - except Dark Phoenix Saga) costumes, periods where she wasn't appearing anywhere (except reprints), but AM including Phoenix (Skip Uncanny #101-137 for Phoenix). Also, I'm only including listings for one series at a time, except where the changes occur in different series - these are indicators of time periods rather than exhaustive.

• Original black-blue and yellow (mask varies): Uncanny #1 - #38
• Green minidress: Uncanny #39 - #66 (plus Giant-Size X-Men #1)
• Green Phoenix: Uncanny #101 - #132
• Dark Phoenix: Uncanny #134 - #136 (THREE ISSUES! Plus the minidress, Green & Dark Phoenix costumes all appear in Uncanny137)
• Green X-Factor: X-Factor #1 - #26
• Red X-Factor: X-Factor #26 - #62
• Blue X-Factor: X-Factor #63 - #70
• Jim Lee X-Men: X-Men #1/Uncanny #281 - Uncanny #352 (plus X-Men: The Animated Series)
• Green Phoenix reprise: Uncanny #354 - #358, X-Men #92 - #99 (equiv. to Uncanny #371 - #380)
• X-Men Revolution Phoenix: X-Men #100 - X-Men #113
• New X-Men black-grey and yellow: New X-Men #114 - NXM #148

I don't think the Dark Phoenix costume should be in the box somehow... - SoM 09:01, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I would say the Jim Lee version or the Green Phoenix reprise would more suit Jean, especially the Jim Lee version. That was when she was just Jean and was getting close to realizing the peak of her powers without the Phoenix Force. Elemental5293 (talk) 21:52, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Things that could be included in article

1. Jean versus Onslaught
2. Jean versus Sabretooth
3. Jean versus Emma Frost (first battle)

--Facto 10:38, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Jean's battle with painkillers. --Chris Griswold 11:07, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Jean vs. Onslaught Elemental5293 (talk) 21:52, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

New jean Pic vote

As the SHB image is changing every hour, lets have a vote to select a pic of Jean once and for all. I don't care what is picked, just as long as we pick one we can agree on. And the Jean.png has been changed to a Jim Lee pic of Jean in her gold-and-blue costume, so I left it out (as she hasn't worn that suit in years). If anyone has a pic that they like better than the ones I have, feel free to nominate your own, and add it to the list. NeoCoronis 21:57, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

• Jean Reborn
• Green Phoenix Costume Jean
• Green Phoenix B/W background
• Green Phoenix, Adam Hughes art
• Green Phoenix with psychic aura
• Green Phoenix, Greg Land art
• Jean in Black
• Phoenix revolution
• Phoenix w/ claws in foreground

Of the images presented, I prefer PhoenixES1v.jpg (Greg Land's). That said, I prefer the Jim Lee version over Greg Land's. EVula 22:28, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I'll second the Jim Lee pic, with the Riot image as second choice. OTOH, aren't polls evil? - SoM 23:45, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I'll vote for anything BUT the Jim Lee pic, only because she hasn't worn that suit in a decade. And voting isn't evil, it's the backbone of democracy, lol. But seriously, if I changed the pic on my own, it could lead to an edit war, but if we all pick a picture that we can agree on, then maybe we can hold off the "flavor of the month" pictures that keep popping up in the SHB. NeoCoronis 00:10, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Breaking down the images:

• Lee - it's not been worn in a while, but it's her longest-serving costume in terms of issues worn (go check chronologyproject.com using the bounds I posted above if you don't believe me), which helps on fair use (which is the reason the Dark Phoenix costume pic was shot down, remember), and it was the costume used on the cartoon, which helps further.
• The Land green-replacing-red variants (ES1v and 2V) - depict a costume she's never actually worn (green with huge Phoenix symbol), even in Endsong itself. They're non-representative variants, churned out for speed rather than accuracy. Can't be fair use for that reason - they've got to be representative.
• The other Land pic (out of the water) is at a bad angle to show the costume. Plus, it duplicates the Cockrum image from down the page very nicely (changing the angle doesn't stop it being a swipe), which is another strike against it.
• Hughes pic simply isn't a SHB pic. We want a single image focusing on the character, not a series of panels (and what's that arty-farty thing he's doing with the legs & sash blending together and going white? And her hair isn't red).
• PhoenixAXM.JPG is a horrible, horrible scan. Whatever its' merits or otherwise as a picture, it would need to go back to the glass before it could be considered.
• The Bachalo pic is taken from uncannyxmen.net. I speak from experience when I say, you don't want to go there.
• The Quietly one's the second-best (as I said) after the Lee pic. But it's a team uniform rather than a Jean-specific costume, amongst other things. - SoM 00:55, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Re-Scanned Green Phoenix with psychic aura, so after that much trouble, I'm voting for it NeoCoronis 01:46, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

There is no way in the world that is rescanned - do an experiment, and put the older version in one Firefox tab, the newer version in another and flick back and forth. They are pixel-for-pixel identical in every way except:

• The plonking of the word "Phoenix" (in Courier script) over "Warren"
• Additional JPEG artifiacts, of the sort you would get from saving a JPEG as a JPEG again in MSPaint (that's not a surmise, I've just done it to double-check, and I got exactly the same set of artifacts).

It is literally impossible to get two scans, done at different times, to line up pixel-for-pixel identical the way they have here, never mind the same edits to wipe away the bg. And the additional graining from the JPEG saving confirms it. You opened the image in MSPaint, wiped out "Warren", crudely inserted "Phoenix" over it, resaved and expected it to pass as a new scan. When the result not only suffers from all the original's problems, but a whole new set too. - SoM 02:16, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

That was breathtaking. --Chris Griswold 13:50, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

...I don't know how to take that...? - SoM 06:54, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Like a man, SoM; like a man. --Chris Griswold 21:26, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

The current version was the original I had on my old PC, the first version PhoenixAXM.JPG was an attempt to shrink it to fit an article I had been doing (which I still had on my current PC). I had to look though some of my picture CDs to find the original, re-load (re-scanned was a "slip of the tongue" as it were) it on my current hardrive, and then uploaded it on Wikipedia. Afterwards, I thought "Warren" was just odd, so I edited the pic with Paintshop (and the Comic MS script wouldn't fit clearly) and re-loaded. NeoCoronis 02:54, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I meant rescanned literally. The levels are off, the colours are off and it's badly cropped out. (And Comic Sans = evil, for the record) - SoM 19:51, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't know why you are being so hostile to me when all I've done is try to help. Have I in anyway done anything to you to make you jump all over me like this? NeoCoronis 02:54, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not being hostile. I'm being honest and avoiding weasel words. There's a difference. - SoM 19:51, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Hm. Why isn't the Greg Land Jean.png image available anymore? I thought that one was the best in terms of representation.-Vontafeijos 03:02, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Deleted as non-fair use via. WP:IFD. Not an option. - SoM 19:51, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Why was that one non-fair use while the current one (Phoenix with claws in foreground) is? Don't they both come from Endsong?Baderyp 21:18, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

If I really had to pick one here, it would be the variant cover of Endsong, green costume. I take issue with claims that it's non-representative... it's totally representative of Phoenix costumes previously worn, even if it's not exact. -Vontafeijos 03:02, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

When there are plenty of images which ARE "exact", it's not fair use to use one which isn't.

And that's assuming the Dave Cockrum suit is desirable as the box image in the first place... - SoM 19:51, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Someone replaced the Greg Land Jean.png with the Jim Lee version, and before that with a Van Sciver New X-Men cover NeoCoronis 03:13, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I really like the one that's up now, as shown in this diff.[1] Can we add it to the list? CovenantD 00:44, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Sure, since you asked so nicely, it's on the list now. NeoCoronis 01:33, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

That one's nice. -Vontafeijos 03:22, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I'll vote for current but overall I'm not a fan of character articles with text on the SHB picture (title articles are different as comic covers work best, and often have text of course). Of the other choices above, the Greg Land works best as a textless image, but would depend on confirmation of SoM's comment that she's never actually worn that costume. Markeer 13:08, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Jean's Status

I do not think it is appropriate to list Jean's Status as "Deceased". At the end of Phoenix: Endsong, she disappeared to some place (most likely the White Hot Room but not explicitly stated). She did not "die" again. I am changing it back to Inactive unless someone else comes up with a better solution. I'm rejecting "Active (in unseen ways)" and "Deceased" as the comics do not support these. --Facto 07:03, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be better to say "Unknown?" Inactive makes it sound like she's one of those characters who didn't really die but was just forgotten because none of the readers liked them, which is definitely not true with Jean Grey. She's very active in the storylines, even if she's not actually there; in this way, Inactive is a little misleading. And since we're not totally sure what the White Hot Room is--if it's some kind of death, or something else altogether--Unknown seems more appropriate. Thoughts? -Vontafeijos 07:20, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd agree with Unknown. We know she's not dead, and it wouldnt be totally accurate to say alive either at this point.DemonWeb 13:48, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. --Chris Griswold 00:33, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Merge

Per the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Comics#Proliferation of Ultimate character articlesWP:COMIC talk page, Ultimate character entries should be merged into the character's main article.--Chris Griswold 05:26, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Survey

• Merge--Chris Griswold 05:26, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
• Merge Dr Archeville 15:13, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
• No Merge--Mr Wednesday 21:12, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
• Merge Markeer 16:02, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
• No Merge The actual guideline is "until the article grows too large." This article is already 1½ times as large as recommended. CovenantD 22:20, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Would you change your mind if I condensed this one? It needs it badly. --Chris Griswold 08:21, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes. CovenantD 13:22, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Take a look. I'm a freak.--Chris Griswold 08:49, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

• Merge CovenantD 16:57, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
• Merge and Condense there's not enough variant between the two versions. -- Ipstenu (talk|contribs) 23:32, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
• Merge. -Vontafeijos 01:40, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Closed with CONSENSUS TO MERGE CovenantD 17:03, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Discussions

The Ultimate X-Men are completly different from their Earth-616 counterparts. I say that the Ultimates get their own pages since they have their own backstories, powers (like Rogue), and stats. Mixing the maistream version with their Ultimate counterparts is confusig, and a waste of space.--Kitsune dxb 11:07, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Hmm. Semi-strong opinion. Might help if you vote. ACS (Wikipedian) 22:14, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Rogue's power appears to be the same in both series. --Chris Griswold 13:04, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with Kitsune dxb. Having two articles is much more confusing; the fact that Ultimate characters are different than the regular Marvel Universe characters may not be evident to casual Wikipedians who don't read comics, which would lead to confusion about why there are two articles for what is, at least at first glance, one character. -Vontafeijos 01:34, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I also think it would be a better idea to keep ultimate and the mainstream combined rather than seperate. When they are seperated it might be easier for someone to find somehting specific they're lookign for, but in all reality its easier to read up and learn about one of the characters when they're combined --joshie 00:00, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Keeping the Ultimate and Mainstream together is a good idea as was said above. Having a link to their Ultimate counterparts makes it much easier for people searching for information. Especially if there are people who are not completely familiar with the workings of Wikipedia. They definately should be kept in the same article. Drunknesmonsta (talk) 00:22, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Endsong

Redid the Endsong article. Hopefully it's a bit more comprehensive.

PLEASE!!! Could an expert or a fan create a new page focusing on the Dark Phoenix character????

An X-Men/Dark Phoenix real-fan should create an article which focus on the Dark Phoenix character with the intention of exclude it from the Dark Phoenix Saga article, so that Dark Phoenix initiate fans like me can know more about her. Thank you for your attention. Lord Hammu (Talk)

Why? Why does it need to be separate? --Chris Griswold 11:49, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

• Phoenix (comics) is the page for the Phoenix Force, which is Dark Phoenix. The Dark Phoenix section of that page has been expanded a bit. I think that's easier than creating a whole new page, especially since Dark Phoenix is Phoenix as well. - User talk:Anarkeya 7/23/06

you should also do the white phoenix of the crown

Dark Phoenix and Phoenix are essentially the same, except for moral allignment, for lack of a better word. I have extensive knowledge on the X-Men as a whole. Expanding on the existing articles makes more sense than just creating a whole new one.Drunknesmonsta (talk) 00:25, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Endsong/Warsong

I think someone should create a page for both Phoenix Endsong and Phoenix Warsong as they are important events in the X-Men comics, like the Dark Phoenix Saga.--Kitsune dxb 20:37, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

• I don't think there's enough information to warrant a new article yet. Maybe after Warsong, but right now only Jean/Phoenix has really been affected by the Endsong mini-series. So far I think Endong is a Jean/Phoenix story not an X-Men story arc. - User talk:Anarkeya 7/23/06
• I plan on updating the Warsong article as the issues come out. Will post when I update so I can get some feedback and possibly some help. So far it's looking as though Warsong might need more updates in the Phoenix Force article rather than in the Jean Grey article.

What would go on such articles? Ive been hunting round for copies of the comics, but cant find endsong or warsong. So would this article be basic word for word spoilers of the comics? I dont know if thats what wiki is about. Theres not much info you could post about the comics without giving away the entire story.Baaleos 12:23, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Timeline of jeans costumes?

I've come across several timelines comiling all of jeans's costumes together, they were very interesting and very helpful, i've even started to make my own version as well, what if wikipedia were to add a costume timeline to jeans bio? any thoughts are appreciated. --joshie 02:16, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Do it on the talk first, and we'll see if it's good enough for the article. --Jamdav86 11:45, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Jean Grey / PHOENIX??!!

Is no one going to mention the boneheaded renaming of this article from "Jean Grey" to "Jean Grey / Phoenix" based on the completely spurious notion that Jean has ALWAYS been associated with Phoenix?

Amen. Elemental5293 (talk) 21:54, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I very much think this should be reversed. Yes, the whole Phoenix thing is important to Jean's story but it's not all she is and it's certainly not a codename she used throughout her history. Plus if I understand the WikiProject Comics convention, it should be "Phoenix (Jean Grey)" at the very least--not that I think it should be used at all. Joeyconnick 09:13, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I undid the nonsensical move. —Nightstallion (?) 10:03, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Someone moved it again, which I promptly undid. I've protected the article from being moved; only another admin can do it now. EVula // talk // ☯ // 16:02, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Overlinking

There is alot of overlinking in the article. For eg: Wolverine and Cyclops have been linked about 5 times. Could somebody pick up the slack and sort this out? TommyStardust 14:46, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Pics (again)

Looking through the article, it's striking that there isn't a pic of Jean as she first appeared as Marvel Girl. I think it's a big oversight. On the other hand, I don't think the ménage à trois ;) with Scott and Emma really adds anything. So, in the interest of keeping this simple, I propose the following:

1. Add a pic of early Jean in her Marvel Girl mini-skirt
2. Remove the Jean walking in on cheatin' Scott and homewrecker Emma
3. Adjust the placement of the remaining pics.

Support CovenantD 09:33, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Strong Support. Without Marvel Girl, you get none of the rest. (Just leave out those stupid dotted lines.;D) Trekphiler 12:32, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Ultimate Pic too old!

Update needed need to at least change the pic to longer hair. i hate the old ultimate jean, PLEASE change it!

I disagree. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 02:22, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I dont mean to sound offensive but what you hate or want has no sway of what will happen. If you can present a good reason as to why the image needs to be changed then say it. Thefro552 02:24, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I would change it but I don't know how to get pictures up on here. Care to explain. Elemental5293 (talk) 21:55, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Main image about to be lost

It looks like we are about to lose the central box image of Jean Grey as Phoenix. Its page is Image:Jeangr.png and it needs to be filled in with copyright information if it is to be saved. I don't know where this image came from, but I put Greg Land as the artist because that is what it said in this article before the image was removed. Is it part of a cover? -- Lilwik 10:52, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Some observations

I don't feel this article has dealt well with the Morrison/Pak retcons (or the Claremont retcons he did in Classic X-Men backup stories) that have re-retconned the original Phoenix into being Jean as opposed to a cosmic copy. In Here Comes Tomorrow it shows that Jean returns to life via a coccoon/Phoenix egg after she dies (just like in Jamaica Bay) in the last place she perished (in this case, the blue area of the moon). In Endsong it identifies Jean as being Phoenix even without the Phoenix Force. When Jean originally merged with the Phoenix on the shuttle, it didn't transfer a "portion of Jean's soul" into the new body - it transferred all of her soul except a small spark. New body, same soul = same character. Also, it never said that the Phoenix force was what gave Jean back her TK in Morrison's run or that Scott's possession with Apocalypse gave Jean the push she needed to accept being the avatar of the Phoenix. Not sure where those ideas came from. 71.118.110.172 01:37, 23 April 2007 (UTC)Slung 04/22/07

X1-X2-X3

Is it worthwhile mentioning that the events in X-men The movie, caused the emergence of Phoenix at the end of X-men 2, and the full blown release of Phoenix within X-3. So far I havent seen anyone state the cause of the mental blocks breaking down on the wiki article.

X-men 1, she had blocks in her mind, placed by Xavier when she was a kid, Near end of Episode, she experiences trauma as result of using Cerebro.

X-men 2 - She is having moments of increased power, and states that this has been occuring since events surrounding Liberty Island, we have no idea of how much time has passed between films though.

X-men 3 - Her mental blocks are gone, and shes kinda angry at Xavier... Understandibly. Her powers released due to the events of X-men 1.

Im surprised no one has mentioned or made reference to this, I have seen other people however, saying that it was the radiation which caused Phoenix to emerge, because in the comics Phoenix feeds on Radiation. This is however against everything we have been shown in the movie, since Jean had the powers before the radiation as a girl, and radiation wouldnt unblock mental barriers as much as a big Telepathic machine tearing them away would. Baaleos 13:53, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I never really got that her using Cerebro in X1 caused the blocks to weaken. Unless you can cite a script writer as having that in mind, that'd probably constitute original research. EVula // talk // ☯ // 14:19, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Even if Cerebro isnt Cited as being the cause, X1 is mentioned in the script as the cause.

Jean Grey : "Ever since Liberty Island....." (Conversation with Cyclops in X2 at the museum- cant remember exact words) We can see that in X1 when she uses Cerebro, it causes visible Pain, do you think theres any room to maneuver here, to say either way if it affected her in a mental capacity? At the very least, a mention should be made in the article that Phoenix was awakened due to events from the first Movie. Whether it be Radiation from Magneto's machine as many people have posted on message boards about, or Cerebro, which is more likely, since it affects the mind, and her powers arnt new, if it was caused by Radiation Mutation, that would imply she didnt have these powers to begin with. Baaleos 12:20, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Angel of the morning?

"Werner (Angel), who is also attracted to her while still thinking she is a man." Not Robertius Draco? Trekphiler 12:29, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Time passages

Since when were X-Men #98 & #100 in 1992? Or did somebody mean 1982? Trekphiler 12:39, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Wolverine vs Phoenix

I have a slight problem with the article stating that Wolverine managed to kill Jean Grey in X3, Because of his healing factor alone... It makes it sound like he was superior to Jean Grey's power. I dont think she was actually trying to kill him, lets face it, if she wanted to kill him, she could have ripped his adamantium bones out of his body, as Magneto does in the commics (and Jean saves him by sustaining his body with telekinetic energy). If Jean grey wanted to kill Logan, I dont think his healing factor would have been enough to save him from Jean Grey, had Jean Grey actually been trying to kill him. She could have thrown him into space for that matter. Is it possible for somone to try and come to a compromise here, and state that Jean Grey allowed Wolverine to get close enough to her, making him suffer as he walked. (Possibly symbolizing how much he cares for her - Walking through hell to get to her) I just think it seems in-accurate to state that he survived soley because of his healing factor, I think Jean was testing him, and his devotion. Baaleos 08:41, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Baaleos, what you say above makes sense, but you seem to forget that as a telepath, she could have just shut down his mutant powers if she really wanted him dead. In X2 she shut off Nightcrawlers ability to teleport at the end of the movie while she was communicating with Scott through Prof. X and while she was holding back the water that was crashing down on the jet. It is speculation as to why she didn't kill Logan while he was walking up to her and what you say at the end does seem to make sense in my opinion. Drunknesmonsta (talk) 00:40, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

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Unnecessary

In the powers and abilities section, this: Jean also showed in Endsong that she, as well as the Phoenix, has the ability to absorb Cyclops' optic blasts and feed off them. is pretty much superfluous as we already know she can absorb any kind of energy and feed off of it. I'm going to remove it.

Jean's family

What about Jean's family? Weren't they all horribly slaughtered? Either way, they should be mentioned more, alive or dead.

Lots42 02:03, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, if I remember correctly, her sister Sara Grey went missing without a trace and was found during the "Phalanx Covenant" storyline to have been absorbed into the Phalanx that went after the Generation Next/future Generation Xers. I believe this Phalanx was called Harvest?--75.87.77.142 06:36, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, her sister was found to be merged with the Phalanx. Joey and Galyn (her neice and nephew) were rescued from Nanny in X-Factor #40, but I don't know where they've gone since then. Her parents, John and _____ Grey were killed recently in UXM in a sotryline about Rachel. THere's a section on "ancestors" Perhaps it should be expanded to "Family". 69.210.141.65 (talk) 20:02, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Elaine Grey is Jean's mother. Drunknesmonsta (talk) 18:39, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot 01:30, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Death

Ok. I am confused. Is Jean Grey dead or not?

Yes, she is dead or not.

Powers

Could someone mark which powers Jean had originally and which powers were granted to her by the Phoenix in a sub-section under her Powers and Abilities section?

Yea, well as of now the Phoenix is Jean always has been, and Jean is the Phoenix, so all of the Phoenix's powers is Jean's powers, so therefore Jean and the Phoenix are the same, Jean is the Phoenix. Jean has that power because she (Jean Grey) has unlimited potential. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.189.133.32 (talk) 01:49, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Jean's powers, prior to any Phoenix alterations were Telepathy and Telekinesis. It was later on in X-Men history when it came out that Xavier had put Psychic Circuit Breakers into her mind in order for her to better control her powers. Her Telepathy developed after seeing her friend Annie struck down by a car and her mind was attached to hers until the moment she died, which almost caused Jean to die herself. Drunknesmonsta (talk) 00:44, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

on thing missin there...

I like to know more about the time she was in Uncanny X-Men, but I only see a Section called Relationship with cyclops, that must be removed or moved somewhere, the info I want to know is the what was the live of Jean Grey when she was not phoenix

I remember reading about (in some site) that she was a member of the X-Men since the first group, and that she hanged out with all the x-men when they were not saving the city, and then she went to the unniversity??

I think that is most important his life in the X-men than the Relationship

I hope this helps 189.129.91.112 20:38, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot (talk) 04:51, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Some important things that should stay in

Classic X-Men #42-earliest in Jean's life that she is shown being connected to the Phoenix. In this story preteen Jean manifests the Phoenix and touches Scotts mind in the orphanage but he thinks he is just dreaming. This event is referenced in Classic X-Men #43 by Death and in Phoenix Endsong #4 by the Phoenix itself.

X-Men the Hidden Years 8/9-- shows Marvel Girl being scanned by the Phoenix Force and she has a vision of becoming Phoenix but it fades from her memory immediately after.

Classic X-Men #43-- Jean Grey meets Death in the afterlife (later called White Hot Room) and its the first time she appears as White Phoenix (she will appear as White Phoenix later on in X-Men Forever, New X-Men #154 and Phoenix Endsong #5).

Between Inferno (X-Factor #39) and Judgment Wars (X-Factor #50) Jean had a small spark of the Phoenix energy within her. Although she didn't use it except in Marvel Presents #15 and in Judgment War where she expelled it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.169.39 (talk) 05:19, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Messiah Complex

Messiah Complex Main article: X-Men: Messiah Complex It was believed by the fandom that the baby girl born after the M-Day which led to the Messiah Complex storyline is actually Jean Grey reborn, given that she appears to be a powerful telepath that can block even Cerebra as seen when the Cuckoos couldn't track her.

The confirmation came at the end of the storyline when Cable handed the mutant baby to Cyclops. After examining the baby for several seconds, the child opens his locket, which has a picture of him and Jean inside, Scott finally recognizes her as Jean, and hands her back to Cable to escape into the future. Cable and the baby version of Jean are currently in hiding somewhere in the future.[25]

Their adventures will apparently continue in the new Cable ongoing series that will start in March 2008.[citation needed] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.35.243.184 (talk) 05:18, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps the baby is Jean and perhaps not. I'll say this though, theres more then a chance that is her I mean the kind of being shes suppose to be could never truly die away at least not for long but, but but but it hasn't been stated if its truly her so for now its completely speculation. For now.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.197.173.100 (talk) 22:53, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Pure speculation. The locket/Scott thing could just be an opening for Scott wanting to become a father with Emma. There's no evidence the baby is a reincarnated anyone. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.90.40.178 (talk) 17:45, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

We might have to rethink on that one, because it seems that the baby has recently been confirmed to be her or another host of the pheonix force.

It has not been confirmed that the baby is Jean, but there are a lot of things that point to her being the reincarnation, or resurection. I believe it was Matt Fraction that said "Keep an eye on a little girl in the future." Yeah, they throw out red herrings here and there, but given that Rachel and the Blade of the Phoenix have lost their powers, it seems that The Phoenix/Jean, is reconstituting itself. This is speculation, which is why I have not added it to the article. Whether it is Hope Summers, or Jean herself coming back has yet to be seen obviously. But it does lead for a lot of us to speculate on where things might go from here. Drunknesmonsta (talk) 01:28, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

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Red Queen additions

Until anything is actually stated, the section containing the events of Uncanny X-Men 509 - 510 is original research and speculation. Therefore, I have removed it. "Strongly suggests" only means OR/Spec and that suggestion is debatable.Luminum (talk) 01:21, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Since this is happening frequently, I'm going the several issues with adding the "Red Queen" section.

"Reading Uncanny X-Men 509 and seeing previews for 510 and 511": Reading 509 may give a suggestion that Jean Grey is a possible individual being described. That alone makes the information dubious--it's a suggestion, and not really a strong one. The language is ambiguous. Does Madelyne mean Jean Grey? Does she mean Emma Frost (who was "captured" in that same issue?) Regardless of the arguments for or against, the information is temporary and unclear, therefore that information does not belong here as it is original research and speculation (see Wikipedia:No_original_research).

Even so, the preview for Uncanny X-Men 510 only shows the X-Men fighting the Sisterhood and explains that everyone is fighting. The variant is of Psylocke. Not much there.

As previously addressed when 511 was used as the basis for another "Jean Grey returns" addition, a preview/solicitation is not sufficient basis for a factual claim on Wikipedia. Solicitations are frequently intentionally misleading and meant to build anticipation. A cover with Dark Phoenix on an X-Men Legacy issue lead people to believe Jean was back and that was only an issue about Xavier thinking about Dark Phoenix. That cover for 511 gives no information and means just as little as it's still only a suggestion. For all anyone knows, the plotline for that issue could be Madelyne tricking them all with a psychic attack into thinking that Jean has arisen or that she has become Jean or anything else. It's completely ambiguous.

The image that was added also does not meet Wikipedia:Images requirements nor does the writing of that section meet the quality standards. As pointed out previously, it's sloppily written and filled with errors.Luminum (talk) 03:23, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

I want to reiterate the statements I made above as the continued reason not to include the solicited cover for Uncanny X-Men #511. As other editors and myself have mentioned, solicitations are not good sources. Even if they depict something happening, what one may interpret from it has no true bearing on what may happen in the comic itself. For example, on the cover of issue #510, the cover would lead you to believe that an all out brawl happens and that madelyne and Emma end up strangling each other. And of course, if you read the issue, nothing like that happens. In just the same way, the cover of #511 may depict Jean rising from her grave, but until the issue is out, that remains only an interpretation of the cover with no way to verify the accuracy of what will happen.

Though reforming the information as an out-of-universe statement seems like an okay way to mediate, I argue that it isn't. That essentially reduces the statement to "There is an isolated picture of [this] happening." And in that way, it does not inform a reader of the article in any substantial way or further a reader's understanding. All it can be is a description of an image, that cannot have any meaning since it would be a baseless interpretation and therefore violate No OR/Spec.

Information on this page should be verifiable. The only way to verify what may be implied by the cover is to actually read the issue. If the issue has Jean actually reviving, then the content of the comic would be included, not the cover. If it turned out it was all a gimick, then neither the cover nor the comic content would have any reason to be included on the page.Luminum (talk) 02:23, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

The section the entry is written in is "jean greys future" the entry states what is shown on a page of uncanny x men #510 concerning Jean Greys future in the entry did not state that Jean would be appearing in any issue only that the picture illustrated in uncanny x men #510 depicts a scene suggesting Jeans resurrection along with the other content in that issue, such as the conversations Madeline has with other members of the sister hood, is ground enough to support the illustration refered to. The only user that seems to have an issue with this entry is "luminum" also taking cheap shots such as calling my entry "badly written" and calling it trivial, the statement trivial is a personal remark on the subject no other users seem to find it trivial, no one else seemed to feel the need to edit it base on its "triviality", I find much of the information on wikipedia to be trivial but i do not remove it as i dont feel i have the right to dictate what people may or may not find trivial.

This entry is a factual piece and while i do not deny that the entry may need to be changed in the future but the same could be said for any entry on wikipedia.

finally comparing the illustration to other "front covers" is not a relevant argument as the issue referred to is a story line directly involving Jean Grey and not a story line directly involving say professor x for example. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Charmed&dangerous (talk • contribs) 16:30, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

We don't use previews or puff adverts because they are often misleading. Let me give you a example, the most recent issue of Fantastic Four featured the Watcher dead on a beach, his guts cut out - ZOMG! Various people rushed to add it to a number of articles.. and then it turns out the preview is completely misleading and it's watcher from an altenative universe. Once the issue comes out we can see what actually has happened and work from that not guesswork. We aren't a newssite, we have no deadline to publish. --Cameron Scott (talk) 17:26, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Funny that because there are many many other such entry's on wikipedia (specifically the speculation on the hope summers page regarding her possible connection to Jean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hope_Summers_(comics)) just because something is implied by a person rather than a picture does that makes it more reliable? no it doesn't people are just as if not more misleading and is that not news? yes it is news in the same way Jean may possibly e rising from her grave Hope may be connected to Jean yet i dont see people rushing to pull that entry off Wilipedia. not to put too finer point on it i feel very victimised that my entry keeps being deleted when all this other similar information is left untouched. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Charmed&dangerous (talk • contribs) 19:25, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

There may be other poor examples of what we're describing here on other pages, but despite that, citing other things on Wikipedia is never a sufficient argument. That just means that there is other bad form that should be fixed and hasn't been fixed. That's far from an argument to maintain bad form on this page. I don't watch Hope Summers(comics), so I don't know. Don't assume you're being "victimized." Jean Grey is a popular character, which means there are probably a significantly larger number of editors watching and maintaining the page than some other character, and that means that something that is deemed incorrect is more likely to get reverted and consistently so here than on a less popular and less watched page. If you are noticing these issues on other pages, then I would advise that you take the initiative to fix them (and appropriately so) as you come across them and, I can only speak for myself, I will do the same. A quick look at the page, though shows that it clearly has tags that show that it needs a lot of work and verification from legitimate sources. So it's not a example of a good article, so why you would use its content to support the questionable edit here is unclear.Luminum (talk) 19:38, 29 May 2009 (

clearly neither of you will let my post stay on so there is no point in me keep re issuing it. i have stated my reason which i consider valid if people are so narrow minded as to be so critical of entry's on what is supposed to be a free encyclopaedia then good luck too you, you clearly have a lot of time on your hand s to do such thing, i how ever will not be changing peoples entry's solely on the basis of my personal opinion i have respect for people's right to post information which is all i was doing this is getting so nit picky and childish i really cant be bothered any more.

You can throw a tantrum if you like along with some childish accusations, but I've explained that the reasons for the edit challenge are based on Wikipedia standards and guidelines for content, not my "personal opinion." Just because this is a "free encyclopedia" doesn't mean that entries can have any kind of content possible, otherwise it'd be no better than one big fan-site. If that isn't enough for you, well then there's really not much else I or anyone else can do. Have a good life.Luminum (talk) 22:30, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

The concerns raised are legitimate - we can't use solicitations for anything other than the basic information. As has been said, they have been misleading and if a publisher can get some extra sales with a bit of misdirection you can bet they'll do it. Also remember there is no deadline (or a prize for adding the information first), we can afford to wait for comic book, and also accept that even then it may not be clear so we'll wait and see. (Emperor (talk) 02:34, 30 May 2009 (UTC))

Hardly a childish tantrum lumium, merely my view which i believe i am allowed to express on this discussion page —Preceding unsigned comment added by Charmed&dangerous (talk • contribs) 10:36, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, calling other editors narrow minded, insinuating that they're doing it just to spurn you and be disrespectful, resorting to personal attacks, and not investigating Wikipedia standards and content rules to see if you were actually incorrect. Not childish at all.Luminum (talk) 17:59, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

This is how i see things, i have see numerous other such entry's which no one has seen fit to remove. the fact that you are calling my opinions childish says a lot. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Charmed&dangerous (talk • contribs) 13:15, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Hey, you started that one yourself. Did you forget: "...i was doing this is getting so nit picky and childish i really cant be bothered any more."

Anyway, to respond your point, which I've already addressed before: Again, if you have noticed the same problems that we mentioned here on other pages, then you're absolutely right--they should be fixed. There could be a problem on any page on Wikipedai, like Pierino_Gavazzi, and if an editor sees that, he or she should take the time to fix it. But, Wikipedia is up to the volunteer editors to take the time to make that happen. You don't watch every Wikipedia comic book page out there and neither do I. I can only work on those that I actually watch and those that are brought to my attention here Wikipedia:WikiProject_Comics. So if YOU see a problem, don't use it as an excuse to let another problem on another page stay. Fix it or throw an appropriate tag on the page or section so another editor with the time and initiative can take a look at it and fix it. "That's bad, so it's okay for this to be bad too" is far from a sufficient argument. That only means another article needs to be fixed. You may want to check out the links I've posted below. If you want to look through the Wikipedia manual of style and find precedent to support your argument that the solicitation should stay, like I and other editors have to you, then feel free to. That will make an actual case for your edit. Good luck! :) Luminum (talk) 19:51, 31 May 2009(UTC)

HEY BACK OFF AND LEAVE CHARMED AND DANGEROUS ALONE! i see nothing wrong with what he's done he put up an edit that was about jean greys future in the jean greys future section why is that such a bad thing? you say that siting wikipedia pages is never valid, why not? there are numerous other pages with speculation on them one post identical to the disputed here is on the Mr Sinister page yet that one is not valid either y your standards? if these standards are that of wikipedia and not your own then wikipedia should enforce them seems to me the fact they are not enforced by wikipedia mean that they are mearly guide lines and not strict rules as seems to be implied, how ever i am ne to wikipedia so i dont know but it seems to me that people are eing a little too over zelous removing entry's by other members simply because the source isn't considered good enough, especially which would most likely be removed when they jean grey story advanced so why not leave it up there? why be so, what i see as, picky and disrespectful to a post that does nothing more than inform? and no differently to many many other wikipedia pages obviously these other edits are considered valid by many other users. Badwolf1 (talk) 13:48, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your input. See above. If you're interested in learning more about the standards of Wikipedia, go here Wikipedia:Five_pillars and here Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style. Luminum (talk) 19:51, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to also point out (for those who haven't seen) a more clear explanation as to why solicitations are not credible sources - found at that link. It's worth looking over. -- A ^talk/_contribs 21:19, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

cheers for the support badwolf1 nice to know there are some non pompus people on wikipedia Charmed&dangerous (talk • contribs) 20:51, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Pyrokinesis/"Cosmic" pyrokinesis

I don't disagree that the section is written poorly and lacks citations, however, some form of pyrokinesis is attributed to the powers of the Phoenix (such as in Phoenix - Warsong) and to the extent that it affects others in her vicinity (New X-Men). Therefore, it shouldn't be removed, just rewritten and properly sourced. I'll start on it when I have a second, but if anyone else wants to go ahead, please feel free. Also, feel free to discuss this issue here so it doesn't turn into an editing war. Thanks!Luminum (talk) 17:15, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

I haved removed any mentions of "cosmic pyrokinesis". Granted, Phoenix is capabable of stimulating individual molecules to create heat, and has used the Force to 'burn' away lies; but this "cosmic pyrokinesis" buisness is a bit...silly? If Jean is manifesting any "cosmic flame", it would be more an extension of both her telepathy and telekinesis as opposed to seperate ability all together. =\ I'm not really good at wording things. 86.144.246.34 21:31, 15 June 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.144.246.34 (talk)

Well see at that point, "silly" comes down the realm of fiction, which is what Jean Grey is, essentially. She's subject to whatever writers in Marvel want to give her/do to her. In terms of Phoenix Warsong, the Stepford Cuckoos very clearly generated fire and it was pointed out that they were using fire. The mechanics of that may just be a creative usage of telekinesis or a metaphorical use of telepathy, but until there's an official statement concerning it, if other characters or writings have dubbed it as "fire" and it interacts as such, I would move that it be added. Alone, the images of Beast recoiling and saying "Ow!" from Jean's flaming aura in new X-Men and the burned grass around her when she reappears in Phoenix Endsong seems to be enough to point out that she uses fire in some form. And again, the Cuckoos were pretty clear about generating fire (though we could always just chalk it up to it being another contradiction or sloppy writing device in that abortion of writing that was Warsong). I'll play around here and see if I can find something satisfactory. Let me know what you think when you see it.Luminum (talk) 21:19, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Just play Marvel Ultimate Alliance 2 for PS3 or XBox. there are 4 powers of Jean: Telekinetic Grip, Restraining Wave, Pyrokine Blast, and Phoenix's Fury. Pyrokine Blast and Phoenix's Fury are "Fire" based powers, while Telekinetic Grip is "Crushing" power, and Restraining Wave is "Mental" power. The description are written like this: (Pyrokine Blast) Manifests a searing wave of psionic energy; Overcome foes' fire resistance; Base Dmg: ***-*** Fire. (Phoenix's Fury) Burns foes held immobile by telekinesis; Increased chance to slow foes; Base Dmg: ***-*** Fire. It means that Jean really controls Fire. Marvel Ultimate Alliance 2 game itself admits that Jean can control fire in her own way, although it is still unknown how she does her "Pyrokinesis" thing, either by her power to access cosmic energy (Phoenix Force), or her molecular telekinetic power, or by combining both power simultaneouslyForestlicious (talk) 16:05, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

And unfortunately, strictly speaking, that's a video game adaptation and of a separate Marvel universe at that. Until it's stated in the 616-Universe character's description, it's speculative/original research based on a separate adaptation.Luminum (talk) 09:29, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Per J-Greb's suggestion on image...

Forgive me for taking the guidelines outlined Wikipedia:WikiProject_Comics/Style_guidance#Superhero_box_images here to heart, but since this has been brought up again, here is why the cover of X-Men #101 is not a sufficient image:

• The image background is not a neutral one.
• The image features distracting decals and logos.
• The image features other characters, despite the fact that the character is the central focus.
• The character's depiction is partially covered, while her face is upright and her eyes closed.

My rationale for changing the main image from the altered image from Phoenix: Endsong to an image from Astonishing X-Men:

• The image is 3/4 while the previous is not.
• The image is full-body while the previous is not.
• The character's face is clearly shown whereas the other image has it partially obscured.

This is not "changing the image for the sake of changing it" or because the image is by Greg Land. I've made it pretty clear I don't like his artwork, but have also maintained that the image was the best fit at the time and should remain. I recently found a better image ([2]) and I've posted my rationale above. Feel free to discuss.Luminum (talk) 01:53, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree, X-Men #101 would be a step, at least, back.

As for the Astonishing X-Men image... the only visual dif I see is seeing the full golden boots:

• Both are 3/4 views - the figure is turned slightly, not dead on to the front or the shoulder.
• "Face clearly visible" is splitting a hair here (pun intended) - both have the character's hair the brow and some of the right side of the face.

I don't see that as an improvement. There are a few other problems:

• Licensing - Astonishing doesn't have it and that is some thing that routinely gets tagged.
• Full sourcing - Both have trouble with this since neither specify where the file came from. Is it a cop off of another web page or is it a scan, crop, and manipulate? Astonishing also needs to cite the artist.
• Size - Again, both have a problem here. At best the image should be 300px across. And at that size, the Land image does provide a better head and torso detail.

- J Greb (talk) 03:09, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

The licensing was an oversight and has been added. Other than that, I wouldn't consider a 3/4th body shot to be minor in comparison to a full body shot. The artist was cited in the superherobox before the revert, but for the sake of comprehensiveness, has been added to the image page as well as the online source of the image. Other than that, the only remaining issue seems to be the issue of size. Since both demonstrate that she has a green outfit on with a Phoenix emblem, I'm not quite sure what more detail the Land image actually offers other than shading and her navel. Whichever, but going on the guidelines, Astonishing meets them more than Endsong which is the only reason why I changed it. If the guidelines don't mean anything, then we can go ahead and leave the image as is. ::shrug::Luminum (talk) 04:04, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

After kicking it around a bit (sorry for the delay), I can see your point. - J Greb (talk) 16:27, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

FCH clean up

I spent a lot of time streamlining the citations for the Jean Grey FCH and cleaning that mess of a section up. It's written in-universe, since the Publication History is all out-of-universe. This is an issue I've brought up before with this page: I feel the PH section doubles as a comprehensive and generally concise FCH. However, given the character's massive history with retcons, I figured that if the FCH is to exist, it should be the canonical history, which is separate from the reality of the original PH and retcons. Unfortunately, despite my attempts, the section is still far lengthier than I would like. If another editor can take a look at it, comparing the PH with the FCH and either edit or give me some advice, I'd appreciate it. I'll be revisiting the section periodically to try to cut it down. This is especially of interest to me because of the Comic Project's recent FCH discussion. The article is high importance, and I'd like to get it into some semblance of shape...at least GA. Thanks!Luminum (talk) 23:12, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

I have written up a much more concise version of the FCH and will post it following this edit. You can also review the current version on my sandbox here. I have taken a lot of pains to ensure that information is comprehensive and out-of-universe in the Publication History while the FCB is intended to be concise and in-universe.Luminum (talk) 06:00, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Jean Grey/Phoenix

This article is called Jean Grey, it should have Jean Grey on the infobox.96.238.36.171 (talk) 03:46, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

That isn't the reason it should say Jean Grey, but you are not wrong. It is standard practice to go by the real name where the character had more than one code name and/or went by their real name for a substantial time, and Jean Grey qualifies for both. Her current code name is irrelevant, as that is WP:RECENTism. 99.126.204.164 (talk) 06:19, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree with you guys that she should be listed as Jean Grey in the infobox. I don't know why anyone would think Jean is "better known" as Phoenix--listing her as Phoenix just leads to confusion regarding Jean, the Phoenix Force, and the various retcons involved. I say leave all of that for the body text and just use her real name, which is what she's most often referred to as, at the top of the info box. Plus, all of the Phoenix fanatics who keep changing "Jean Grey" to "Phoenix" all over Wikipedia tend to also add OR stuff about cosmic fire, resurrection abilities, etc., to such an extent that all of their changes to "Phoenix" seem to me to border on OR, or at least to pushing an agenda.

Anyway, we now have three votes for Jean Grey and no comments (just a bunch of reverts) from those who want it to say Phoenix. Is that enough to be considered consensus? DeadpoolRP (talk) 01:22, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

I think the pagename itself can tell that her name is Jean Grey, and you open her page in the name of Jean Grey, unless that the name is Phoenix you all may revert it to Jean Grey. No wonder most people now think that wikipedia is an unreliable sources because of editors like these type, who based on their own opinion rather than the fact that the Jean Grey is the same with Phoenix, no matter how many times she explains in Phoenix: Endsong that she is Jean Grey, and she is the Phoenix, and she took her name in honor for Rachel. Does it really bother to just accept "Phoenix" name on small infobox? Even in games nowadays she is more known as Phoenix. Wikipedia is source of information, so I think people who doesn't know about X-Men/new about X-Men that this information about Jean Grey-Summers is Phoenix or any other information is important. If you want to know the true fact, let's say you should talk to Stan Lee himself. If there's no proof that Jean Grey should be Jean Grey, let's put it that the name is Phoenix since she stated it herself in Phoenix: Endsong — Preceding unsigned comment added by Forestlicious (talk • contribs) 05:14, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Oh and another thing. If Phoenix's (whatever you people you may say it but I call her Phoenix as she is) infobox should be Jean Grey, it should be the same with all X-Men members. Like Storm, should be Ororo Munroe, and Magneto should be Max Eisenhardt. Sounds pretty fair right?

It should be the name of the article.96.238.36.171 (talk) 19:37, 3 February 2012 (UTC)