Talk:Schapelle Corby: Difference between revisions
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The article is ostensibly about Schapelle Corby, but around two thirds of it now is dedicated to telling us that the Indonesians got her drug conviction wrong. Without debating the merits or otherwise of that case, that seems inappropriate. Can we maybe rename/move the article to reflect what it has now become, or create two articles, one with the unarguable facts, and the other with the case for her defence that many feel needs to be presented? |
The article is ostensibly about Schapelle Corby, but around two thirds of it now is dedicated to telling us that the Indonesians got her drug conviction wrong. Without debating the merits or otherwise of that case, that seems inappropriate. Can we maybe rename/move the article to reflect what it has now become, or create two articles, one with the unarguable facts, and the other with the case for her defence that many feel needs to be presented? |
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What else should the article be about then about the wrong conviction of Schappelle? One cannot split up facts and her defence. Fact is that the price for drugs is way lower in Indonesia so smuggling to this country equals losing money, and when caught you can receive the death penalty. Its a fact and part of her defence. |
answer: What else should the article be about then about the wrong conviction of Schappelle? One cannot split up facts and her defence. Fact is that the price for drugs is way lower in Indonesia so smuggling to this country equals losing money, and when caught you can receive the death penalty. Its a fact and part of her defence. |
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[[User:HiLo48|HiLo48]] ([[User talk:HiLo48|talk]]) 11:37, 3 January 2011 (UTC) |
[[User:HiLo48|HiLo48]] ([[User talk:HiLo48|talk]]) 11:37, 3 January 2011 (UTC) |
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:I agree with your assessment of the problem - broadly speaking. But not sure about the solution. The "controversy" section is appalling. I'd say a lot can be chopped out, the rest put into other sections. That's a start. |
:I agree with your assessment of the problem - broadly speaking. But not sure about the solution. The "controversy" section is appalling. I'd say a lot can be chopped out, the rest put into other sections. That's a start. |
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This has become an unbalanced article
The article is ostensibly about Schapelle Corby, but around two thirds of it now is dedicated to telling us that the Indonesians got her drug conviction wrong. Without debating the merits or otherwise of that case, that seems inappropriate. Can we maybe rename/move the article to reflect what it has now become, or create two articles, one with the unarguable facts, and the other with the case for her defence that many feel needs to be presented?
answer: What else should the article be about then about the wrong conviction of Schappelle? One cannot split up facts and her defence. Fact is that the price for drugs is way lower in Indonesia so smuggling to this country equals losing money, and when caught you can receive the death penalty. Its a fact and part of her defence. HiLo48 (talk) 11:37, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- I agree with your assessment of the problem - broadly speaking. But not sure about the solution. The "controversy" section is appalling. I'd say a lot can be chopped out, the rest put into other sections. That's a start.
- An article based solely on her defence is inherently non-neutral. --Merbabu (talk) 11:44, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- Cool. I don't have any strong investment in my suggestions. I do agree that a big cleanup is needed one way or the other. As an Australian, I feel that we must get rid of uncited lines like "The Corby case generated anti-Indonesian sentiment among Australians." That reads like pure POV. HiLo48 (talk) 11:50, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- That bit's poorly worded and unreferenced, but it is true. The media and internet were full of anti-Indonesian sentiment - you can still see it in the
boganmoronic comments on the internet. I know Indonesians who copped a lot of crap during that time. I agree it can't stay like it is though. --Merbabu (talk) 12:01, 3 January 2011 (UTC)- Agree about the media driven, anti-Indonesian sentiment at the time. Not sure if it helps, but around that time the ABC show MediaWatch dedicated a whole episode to the outwardly racist and vilifying coverage of the case, with talkback radio hosts calling Indonesian magistrates "monkeys" and the sickening newspaper articles denigrating a whole nation. Could be worth a brief email to the broadcaster so that the comment can be appropriately referenced - I don't think it's poorly worded at all, for the record. It's concise, yet precise, and possibly still painful for some.JR76 (talk) 16:55, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
- PS - the article's contents need to be matched up against the citations. Out of the 3 or 4 I've checked so far, I found one (the Qantas book sale) was so misrepresented that it was bs, and another had a slanted, or at best unusual, interpretation of what was relevant (ie the baggage weighing). Even little things like this change: "The police in Bali
failed todid not weigh the baggage". It all adds up to a neutrality problem. --Merbabu (talk)- I don't expect we will ever have equal representations of +/-. The Indonesian position was always relatively simple: we caught you with ganja. Almost all of the other issues (baggage handlers, drug mules, cctv cameras, bag weights, fingerprints, mj cost in Indonesia, etc) were raised by the Corby team. WWGB (talk) 12:10, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, and this is where the prima facie case is. The Corby's couldn't prove it wasn't hers. I am in two minds about my removing of the Lindesay quote on this, but the last thing I'd like to see is a tit-for-tat article based on a commentary of "experts" and editors arguing who's an expert and who isn't, etc. etc. My thinking is just keep it straight up and down the line on known and undisputed facts. For example, we know the court found her guilty, but while we all might have an opinion or belief either way, none of us (except Schapelle, possibly her family, and of course Kim Bax) actually knows for sure. --Merbabu (talk) 12:19, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- Perhaps it would be wise if there a section under "Trial" setting forth the prosecution case. I'm a bit surprised that only one side's case is there.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:24, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- The prosecution case is something like - you had 4kg's of ganja in your bag, you've got lots of theories, but you can't prove it wasn't yours. :-P --Merbabu (talk) 12:30, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- That may be true, but something should be written about the prosecution case for comprehensiveness in that section. Even if it is just what you said. Additionally, I seem to recall there were various versions about Corby's reactions at customs in Bali, no doubt something should be said about that.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:48, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- This article is good - it has a "brief" towards the end. --Merbabu (talk) 13:00, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, very clearheaded. However, still, some account of the prosecution's case should be there.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:31, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- This article is good - it has a "brief" towards the end. --Merbabu (talk) 13:00, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- That may be true, but something should be written about the prosecution case for comprehensiveness in that section. Even if it is just what you said. Additionally, I seem to recall there were various versions about Corby's reactions at customs in Bali, no doubt something should be said about that.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:48, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- The prosecution case is something like - you had 4kg's of ganja in your bag, you've got lots of theories, but you can't prove it wasn't yours. :-P --Merbabu (talk) 12:30, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- Perhaps it would be wise if there a section under "Trial" setting forth the prosecution case. I'm a bit surprised that only one side's case is there.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:24, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, and this is where the prima facie case is. The Corby's couldn't prove it wasn't hers. I am in two minds about my removing of the Lindesay quote on this, but the last thing I'd like to see is a tit-for-tat article based on a commentary of "experts" and editors arguing who's an expert and who isn't, etc. etc. My thinking is just keep it straight up and down the line on known and undisputed facts. For example, we know the court found her guilty, but while we all might have an opinion or belief either way, none of us (except Schapelle, possibly her family, and of course Kim Bax) actually knows for sure. --Merbabu (talk) 12:19, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- I don't expect we will ever have equal representations of +/-. The Indonesian position was always relatively simple: we caught you with ganja. Almost all of the other issues (baggage handlers, drug mules, cctv cameras, bag weights, fingerprints, mj cost in Indonesia, etc) were raised by the Corby team. WWGB (talk) 12:10, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- That bit's poorly worded and unreferenced, but it is true. The media and internet were full of anti-Indonesian sentiment - you can still see it in the
- Cool. I don't have any strong investment in my suggestions. I do agree that a big cleanup is needed one way or the other. As an Australian, I feel that we must get rid of uncited lines like "The Corby case generated anti-Indonesian sentiment among Australians." That reads like pure POV. HiLo48 (talk) 11:50, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
(Convenience sub-heading)...
- This is another example of the problem here: the desperation to hide the reality of this case. It is appalling.
- Got her drug conviction wrong? She didn't even have a trial. In case you have been in a cave for seven years: they refused to test the drugs for country of origin, they refused to allow her to cross examine, they refused to seize CCTV footage from the local airport, they burned the evidence, and so much more. How many do you want? Are these not core to the case?
- Of course they are. They are facts, and they are an absolute disgrace, but some twisted creatures seem to want to hide them.
- For years this has gone on, and now we even have the politically motivated seeking to re-group and make this farce of an article even more propagandistic against her. There are some very sick people around.
- Wikipedia needs to wake up and launch the investigation into the abuse of this article by those with pro-government anti-Schapelle-Corby agenda. Some of whom have been engaged in a wider mission since John Howard's office was caught red handed managing articles just like this one. 86.157.75.69 (talk) 17:09, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- Some new, inexperienced and unregistered users here. I strongly recommend that they take a day off from this article and spend it looking at the rest of Wikipedia to see how it works. The insults and assumptions are flying thick and fast about anyone who disagrees with them. That's not how to create a good article, and is more likely to get them banned. That is not an attack on anyone as a person, but advice about how to get things done here. We cannot use the approach used in tabloid newspapers and current affairs TV shows. Probably one of the best places to start would be to look at Wikipedia:Assume good faith. And in that vein, welcome aboard. Wikipedia needs fresh editors. HiLo48 (talk) 20:47, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- Perhaps a good start for you HiLo48 is to actually learn something about this case.
- How about the Human Rights Abuses at the show trial? These - http://www.schapelle.net/report.html. Funny, isn't it, that they are NOT mentioned in the article at all. Why do you think that is?
- How about researching some of the background, such as this - http://www.schapelle.net/report.html. Not covered again.
- It goes on and on. You either have no idea about the case, or you have an agenda. In either scenario, you are unqualified to lecture anyone on it.
- Schapelle Corby is a political prisoner. She was subjected to horrific human rights abuses via a sham trial, in which she was refused the right to even submit key evidence. The judge had never acquitted anyone in 500 cases. She has been routinely abused since.
- This is why so many people are affronted and sickened. Yet it is brushed over on Wikipedia. Why? The answer is because the article has been managed. I posted these earlier - http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2007/08/26/18443430.php and http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2007/s2014471.htm. Do you think they suddenly stopped when they were caught? They didn't. They just became more sophisticated.
- THIS is a prime article for their attention, because of its political sensitivity. But you don't want to hear that, do you?
- So back to my earlier comment:
- Why no Wikipedia investigation into the long term corruption of this article, and those who have been engaging in it?
- I suggest that you go back to first principles. This article is appalling. It is a biased, propagandistic, misrepresentation of the facts, hostile to Schapelle Corby. It is a disgrace to Wikipedia's founding principles.
- Further, this state of affairs has been heavily protected for some years, by a relatively small number, sometimes acting under proxy identities. You must surely be aware of this, but if you are not, I suggest that you actually start to do some research. Begin with the long term edit patterns of some of those reversions of facts which are actually core to the case. Investigate. Look at the edits, and the consistent patterns, of individuals.
- In a number of cases look at their own words on the talk pages. Look at their ignorance of the case facts, the zealous nature of their editing, and their clearly hostile position with respect to Schapelle Corby.
- Ask if they should be anywhere near to editing this article. And yes, I am referring to those you would consider to be experienced senior editors. It's a position they hide behind to get away with this gross abuse. It is a shield, which blinds you.
- But you won’t do any of this will you? And neither will any other 'Admin'. It is far too easy to turn a blind eye, and pretend that the reality of this article is fantasy. But it isn’t, and it isn’t limited to this article either. But this article though is particularly stark, not only because the intense management of it is relatively easy to establish, but because it is so revolting in terms of the agenda is supports.
- Those links posted above by the way, to the Australian government being caught red handed systematically editing and abusing Wikipedia articles - do you imagine they just simply ceased when those news reports emerged? Are you REALLY that naïve? In case you are, here is some coffee to sniff - they became more professional at it.
- So are you going to do your job and establish a full investigation into the edit patterns and previous editors with respect to this article? I won't hold my breath (but whilst you dodge it, you may find that downstream someone else will do it for you, to detriment of Wikipedia as a whole).
- Why is Wikipedia not interested in preventing the political abuse of this article, when it is already 100% established that Australian government officials and affiliates have engaged in this for years?
- Please confront the corruption and those engaging in it (and at least one has posted on this page), rather than run away from it. 86.157.75.69 (talk) 22:34, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- You've now pasted the above into this page about 4 times. It's clear we are not providing the response you want and you may need to re-assess your strategy. You could seek advice from a wider group of editors here. There are some wise heads there, mostly who haven't been involved with the Corby article.--Merbabu (talk) 22:59, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- Please confront the corruption and those engaging in it (and at least one has posted on this page), rather than run away from it. 86.157.75.69 (talk) 22:34, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- It is rather obvious why I reposted it. 1) Because it is repeatedly hidden and thus censored via 'collapsing' the areas it is posted in. 2) Because Wikipedia is hiding from the ugly truth which it states. As for "we are not providing", I seek a response from those who have not been involved in corrupting this article against Schapelle Corby, not from those who have been engaged in it. It requires a detailed investigation into all those who have repeatedly edited over a prolonged period. 86.157.75.69 (talk) 08:20, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
- DO read my post above again please. It was not about Schapelle Corby at all, quite deliberately. That's not because I know nothing of the case. Here at Wikipedia, my opinion of the case is irrelevant, as is yours. My post was about how you (and others) must work here on Wikipedia. Your approach and posting style just won't work. You will do much better here if you learn to follow the rules and conventions of the site. I wish you well. HiLo48 (talk) 10:33, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
- Kim, you want a response from someone who has "not been involved in corrupting this article against Schapelle Corby"? You got it. Maybe you aren't currently posting here as regularly as you were (such a shame). But I still wanted to chime in. Your problem (among many) is assuming bad faith by everyone and accusing them of having ulterior motives or being paid by political parties to alter the article. Did it ever cross your mind that perhaps there are editors that disagree with your viewpoint? No one is necessarily removing the United Nations report because they disagree with its findings or wish to censor the information. But rather, they are removing it because it has not been mentioned by reliable sources that have covered the trial.
- Let me give you a hypothetical situation here: say I'm editing the article on soft drink. It may be perfectly fine for me to add information that some varieties of soft drinks contain caffeine, with citations supporting that. But let's say someone else in the very next sentence adds information that says "caffeine has an addictiveness close to that of nicotine found in cigarettes", with a citation backing up that caffeine] is addictive. That fact may be true and the reference itself may be fine, but the construction of those facts may lead to the incidental implication that soft drinks are as addictive as cigarettes. Even if that was not explicitly written and was not the intention of the editor. This also may be true, but without a reliable source directly saying "the addictiveness of caffeine makes soft drinks dangerously close to as addictive as cigarettes", it comes off as synthesis. When a time comes that a reliable source covering the Corby trial mentions the relevance of the discrepancy in street prices, then the fact can and should be added to the article. As of now, you are presenting fact A next to fact B, and although you wish for the readers to make their own assessments, the juxtaposition of facts is unfairly bent to leading the reader to a specific conclusion.
- One other point I wish to make: it is highly unnecessary for editors to reveal their identities, occupations, or other personal facts in order for their contributions to be deemed acceptable. People should be judged on the quality of their contributions and arguments alone, not on their reputation from the "real world". Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 20:07, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
January 2011 discussion
There's no section on the alleged insider corruption at the time Schapelle flew, as clearly referenced by the Sydney Morning Herald, quoting Ray Cooper, former Chief of Internal Investigations for the Australian Federal Police: http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/afp-involved-in-drug-smuggling-exdetective/2005/05/08/1115491036872.html
Plus referenced again in this Sydney Morning Herald article, quoting The Australian Federal Police:
"Federal police say "it is a recognised criminal activity" for drug dealers to use innocent travellers as unsuspecting "mules". They have arrested baggage handlers at Sydney Airport for the offence. Drugs are inserted in luggage at one airport and a photograph of the target bag and its tag are emailed to the destination airport, where baggage handlers recover the drugs before the passenger collects the bag." http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2005/03/04/1109700677359.html
Considering these are mainstream news reports, quoting impeccable sources, is there anyone here willing to dance around on the head of a pin (again), trying to explain to the World why they should not be included. I await responses with some amusement . . . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kimpatriciabax (talk • contribs) 15:48, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
And in the "Arrest" section, shouldn't it be clearly described that the Bali customs officers failed to weigh Schapelle's bags, to compare that to the Brisbane check-in weight? That Sydney Morning Herald article, "Weighing the Evidence," (above), also clearly references and describes those events. Anyone here want to "Object" to that? I look forward to hearing from you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kimpatriciabax (talk • contribs) 15:56, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
Further, that Sydney Morning Herald article, "Weighing the Evidence," also extensively cites the fact all the physical evidence was burnt by the Indonesians, without forensic testing - as does this ABC Australia article: http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200603/s1594624.htm
So folks, as that seems to be another omission here, where do you think it should be included? Do you think it needs a new section? I mean, there's huge gaps in this Wikipedia entry . . . and every single point is thoroughly referenced in mainstream news reports . . .
1. Coals to Newscastle (extensive references already provided)
2. Alleged insider corruption (references provided)
3. Weighing the evidence. (references provided)
4. No forensic testing of the evidence, and burning of the same before appeals were exhausted (references provided)
Or is there a pattern of omissions emerging here? I would like a comprehensive response on each point I've numbered, as to why they should "Not" be included please (or maybe you, whoever "You" are, agrees these points should be added) . . . though silence from the anonymous mob here will be just as eloquent (and telling). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kimpatriciabax (talk • contribs) 16:14, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
My, everyone's gone quiet - I think those suggestions above would be a huge improvement on this Wikipedia entry - and some "Admin" here did write that he wanted to "Improve" it . . . ;-) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kimpatriciabax (talk • contribs) 16:34, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
I've just added some updated info to the entry, if someone could tidy it up by adding the citations in the correct way, that would be very much appreciated (they're all mainstream news reports). However, as I don't expect the changes I've made to "Stay" without deletion, I thought it would be useful to make them explicit for the screen capture. And for convenience, here they are (in order): http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/indepth/julia-gillard-backs-clemency-for-schapelle-corby/story-e6frewmr-1225898705646
http://www.smh.com.au/world/corby-wont-survive-bali-jail-psychiatrist-warns-20090824-ewlz.html
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2005/03/04/1109700677359.html
http://sgp1.paddington.ninemsn.com.au/sunday/default.asp
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/2506/keyarticle2.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kimpatriciabax (talk • contribs) 01:57, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
Why has the "Accidental Drug Mule" article been deleted? This article is no longer available on line, and it's also referenced here, if anyone doubts it:
http://www.phaseloop.com/foreignprisoners/news-australia/news-aust102.html
Plus (of course), once any reader of the entry has that info, they can easily check it out, and retrieve the original article from the newspaper in question for a very small fee (like I did). Maybe you'd prefer that citation above, that I've just added? No problems with that if you do. Further, although this was not a "Domestic" shipment, it's still highly relevant, because it did involve the same baggage handling crew that dealt with Schapelle's luggage - the two planes were even on the tarmac at exactly the same time (according to FOI information that has been retrieved). Also very sincere thanks for adding most of the citations in the correct manner. Your help and interest is very much appreciated, I note it's now 12.28 pm (Monday 3rd Jan 2011), here in Queensland Australia. Let's hope the amended record is maintained. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kimpatriciabax (talk • contribs) 02:31, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- "Also very sincere thanks ... Your help and interest is very much appreciated, " - see, it's not that hard to be nice! thanks. (By the way, please please please sign your posts on Talk pages - just add four tilda's "~" on simply click the sig button above the edit box. )--Merbabu (talk) 02:35, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- It was removed as a contributory copyright violation: the policy is that we can't link directly to copyright violations. You can provide the full reference, though, and it can then be accessed via a Google search or through the commercial news archives. - Bilby (talk) 02:40, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- The "drug mule" matter is already covered in the article at Schapelle Corby#Alleged involvement of baggage handlers including a working link [1] with similar content to the dead link. WWGB (talk) 02:37, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for that explanation, though now you have an "Undead" link (in the form of a screen capture of the article, with newspaper and date details added, plus of course, the other one I provided), perhaps you could amend it as appropriate? I'll leave that at your discretion. And Merbabu honey, I'm always ready to kiss and make up (said with a pleasant smile, and no hard feelings). These little spats do occur from time to time . . . Kimpatriciabax (talk) 02:47, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
Thanks Bilby, I'll bear that in mind Kimpatriciabax (talk) 02:50, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- I guess we could use the screen grab as a reference, however, I think the SMH article [2] is more appropriate as it mentions both Hurley and Corby directly, whereas the DT article makes no mention of Corby. WWGB (talk) 02:58, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- It depends on their connection to the case, including who made the allegations, who said the points were relevant, and who's opinions we are considering. If they were key points in the trial, then certainly they can be included in principal. If they were someone's opinion, then it is less clear. Was it a just a journalist's opinion? In my books, justifications such as the recently offered "is obviously very relevant to this Wikipedia entry" or "anyone with half a brain can see the relevance", don't cut it as criteria for inclusion.--Merbabu (talk) 03:31, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
Hi again guys (girls?), you’re certainly a speedy and efficient group when it comes to the techie stuff and adding citations appropriately. Very much appreciated. I’ve just added these words in the “Prima facie case” section, maybe you could work your magic again?:
“However, Article 66 of the Indonesian Criminal Procedural Codes (KUHAP) states: “The onus of proof is NOT on the Defendant" ("On trial: Australian media for undermining Schappelle" Civil Liberties Australia, July 10 2008). Roger Anthony Smith, an Australian trained lawyer with many years of experience in Indonesia ("Equality over-balanced is discrimination in reverse" Civil Liberties Australia, May 14 2008), said "Given that no one has been able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt either her guilt or her innocence, then she must be freed. This is a fundamental principle of any legal system." ("On trial: Australian media for undermining Schappelle" Civil Liberties Australia, July 10 2008).”
Here are the links associated with the references I’ve used (from Civil Liberties Australia), scroll down to the bottom of the second link to access the bio info of Roger Anthony Smith:
http://www.cla.asn.au/0805/index.php/opinion/2008/on-trial-australian-media-for-underminin
http://www.cla.asn.au/0805/index.php/articles/2008/equality-over-balanced-is-discrimination-1
Kimpatriciabax (talk) 07:42, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- I've wikified the Smith response to The Australian, however, I don't agree with the Smith article which is basically a blog/personal opinion and appeared only to be used to justify his qualifications, which are clearly evident anyway. WWGB (talk) 08:03, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- I removed it, and I also removed a similarly inappropriate opinion in the same section that was an unattributed opinion saying she would be convicted in most countries based on the evidence. Both of these snippets are POV problems. Let's just stick to the facts, rather than the media's commentary on it. --Merbabu (talk) 09:38, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- There is a lot uncited material in the article, or flimsily sourced. I intend to clean it up ASAP. --Merbabu (talk) 09:45, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
I've replaced some original lines, thus:
"The weight of Schapelle's bag was crucial evidence at this point. If it weighed more in Bali than it did when it was checked in at Brisbane, that fact would have supported Schapelle's claims, but the Bali police and customs failed to collect this vital data."
. . . because, obviously, if the bag weighed more in Bali, than it did in Australia, the fact of Schapelle's innocence was nailed immediately. That fact cannot be overemphasised. I've also replaced the reference to the Bali 9, thus:
"in contrast to the arrest of the Bali 9"
Because it's a clear fact that's also pointedly referenced in the Channel 9 programme. Now guys, unlike you, I don't get paid to sit around on a computer all day - and I'll make this point perfectly clear to you now, which is that I am not replacing these edits again, however, I AM screen capturing them. So you allowing this perfectly valid information on Wikipedia is great, but it's also great if you don't - because, from now on, I will be doing quite a bit of work on this page, and while minor semantics are no quibble, removing (so to speak), the guts from information IS a problem. I'll also be recording the time interval of each removal, thus clearly demonstrating the intense scrutiny this page is under, from people who refuse to reveal their agenda or background, but who have also been heavily involved in editing the information on John Howard's page. I've also created a separate information file on my computer, to collate, collect and time all these screen captures - and when the proverbial hits the fan, reaching far wider audience than this page ever will, all the evidence will be clearly available. Either way, it's no skin off my nose. In effect, you either allow this historically referenced material to remain, and retain the guts of its meaning - or my file will be getting bigger each day, thus rendering this page useless as any kind "Trusted" source once the major publicity that's in the pipeline hits the streets. It will also have the effect of undermining Wikipedia as a whole (due to the high profile nature of Schapelle's issues, which will be getting than Ben Hur, trust me on that one), and very probably spark rather intense journalistic probes into exactly who you characters are. Because by then, it won't just be me on your tail, there will be sh*t loads of people asking the same questions.Kimpatriciabax (talk) 14:18, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- This is getting tiresome. I've started an AN/I thread here.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:39, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
Honey, it's going to get a lot more "Tiresome" for you, believe me. I'll be doing a legitimate edit or two a day from now on, and screen capturing. I'm certainly not going to get into any "Edit" wars, by continually replacing text. Once you've "Sanitised" the info and played down the message (or deleted stuff entirely, like the article from Civil Liberties Australia, one of Australia's foremost NGO's), I'll screen capture again. Once I have both images, it's a simple job to hi-lite the lines in question (yellow's always good), so it can be placed alongside the "Doctored" version, for graphic contrast. I'll then create a growing "Slide show" of said images, here's an example of what I mean (though I have various templates):
http://www.womenforschapelle.org/womenforschapelle/australiasaysfreeschapelle.html
. . . which will serve as a perfect and immediate reference for all types of future media. Kimpatriciabax (talk) 15:04, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- In other words, you're going to waste your time doing this manually. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:06, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
No, not a waste of time. Information is all about accessibility, and how it hits you graphically, and what it does to hold your attention. If that wasn't the case, there wouldn't be whole armies of PR people being paid large amounts of money to get it right. Now, I don't now about you, but wading through that word soup you linked to would send me to sleep in about 5 seconds flat. The last thing film makers and book authors need to do make people doze off - so a slide show of hi-lited screen shots provides a certain amount of interest and drama (in fact, I can even imagine the doco film sequence now, as I type), and I'll probably add more "In your face" elements of interest too. I assume you read my last blog post, the key point is a tidal wave of publicity is coming (and your view and/or belief in that fact is of no consequence either way), which will overwhelm anything you're playing around with here. I have every expectation information on this page will continue to get sliced (within seconds, or minute or two at the longest), and adding that dramatic pictorial evidence of censorship (especially in the light of the BBC article, and Merbabu's demonstrated activity on Howard's page), is a brilliant addition to what's already underway. Kimpatriciabax (talk) 15:28, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- Sarek, it is indeed a waste of time. This page, her own blog, and some other things like this
rantinterview on Derryn Hinch's show reveal that Kim Bax is unable to communicate and work with people here (listen to the audio - the transcript is only the first bit). There's no telling her. She knows she's right, and thus she just needs to keep yelling without showing any sign of understanding. - While she mentions the interview on her blog, as far as I can tell she doesn't link the actual audio (as I have done here), and like her blogging on wikipedia and other topics, the interpretion she provides is completely different to what I see/hear in the original source. Worse - it might be that she's not even deliberately manipulating and misrepresenting it - her wildly off track summations are probably as she sees things - delusionally.
- Now that she's been blocked, the irony is that she has no right of reply here now - which is exactly the case on her blog for the rest of us and everyone else she's dissed. She can crap on and defame, yet provides no means of reply. And she talks about us being secretive(!?!). At least she was given ample opportunity to state her case here. Shame for her she couldn't understand the responses.
- However, it seems that she has been blocked for her bullying and intimidation attempts, which should have been done earlier. And, that cannot be excused. In my books, that shows someone very nasty. As for the movie and books - I think we're all happy to call her bluff on that one. With all her linking, she's never actually provided any evidence of said books and movies. --Merbabu (talk) 20:54, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- This is clearly abusive, in fact very abusive. Is it ok to be abusive, as long as the abuse is from Merbabu, or someone with similar agenda? Why is Merbabu allowed to abuse without sanction? Ditto some of the others. Can I join the club which permits this? 86.157.75.69 (talk) 08:24, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
Personal attacks
Whether or not Kimpatriciabax (talk · contribs) is blocked, she's still a Wikipedia editor and subject to the provisions of WP:No personal attacks. Accusations of delusion or paranoia, etc. have no place here, ok? Thanks. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 00:24, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
Propose semi-protection
I propose that we semi-protect this talk page for a month, and establish an unprotected page, say Talk:Schapelle Corby/IP concerns where the various IPs can leave comments without causing disruption here.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:50, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
External links Further reading
I suggest going through the shorter newspaper articles in the external links section and incorporating any important/relevant info into the article, and using their links as in-line citations. These news articles can then be removed from external links. --Merbabu (talk) 00:36, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Sorry, the section's title "Further reading". However, my initial point above still stands. And, it's always struck me that "Further Reading" sections are like the "wikipedia-approved reading list" and thus inherently non-neutral. Indeed, I was requested to remove one for this reason during the Indonesia featured article review. --Merbabu (talk) 01:25, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- I've never thought much about it, but I really don't see the point myself, except perhaps as a consolation prize for a source or something.--Wehwalt (talk) 05:54, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- I think it's an appropriate place to list books on the subject, such as Schapelle: The facts, the evidence, the truth and perhaps Hotel Kerobokan: The Shocking Inside Story of Bali's Most Notorious Jail, and academic papers such Sentencing Schapelle. Listing a book is not an endorsement, it's just steering the interested reader towards further information on the subject. WWGB (talk) 06:14, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- I've never thought much about it, but I really don't see the point myself, except perhaps as a consolation prize for a source or something.--Wehwalt (talk) 05:54, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
A comparison between Schapelle Corby sentence and the crimes committed by Indonesian.
A comparison should be made between Schapelle Corby's sentence, and sentence given out to an Indonesian for the same crime. If Indonesian routinely gives similar sentences to Indonesians guilty of similar crime, then although harsh by western standards, at least she was not treated any different because she was a foreign.
However, she received longer sentences than Indonesians guilty of the brutal beheading of village girls, some who received only 14 year sentences, shows that the bigotry of the Indonesian prosecutors and people - see wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Indonesian_beheadings_of_Christian_girls . This does indicate bias against non Indonesians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.51.147.97 (talk • contribs)
- Do we have any statistics on sentences of non-Indonesians in Indonesian convicted of beheading Christian girls? Seems to me you would need that for any comparison though it would still be OR.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:05, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
- As Wehwalt said, that info would undeniably be WP:OR, specifically, WP:SYNTHESIS. Unless we have a reliable source which itself explicitly makes the comparison between Corby's sentence and that of Indonesians who committed similar crimes, then we definitely can't include it. 02:10, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
- I guess some heads are worth more than others! WWGB (talk) 03:31, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
- Is that a pot head? My botany is not what it once was ...--Wehwalt (talk) 03:43, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
- I guess some heads are worth more than others! WWGB (talk) 03:31, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
Give up on the soap-boxing and racism. The article is called Schapelle Corby. It's not called Those evil, nasty Indonesians. HiLo48 (talk) 01:17, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
Shrink-wrapped bags
I've removed a quote added. The original source reads:
- "Public belief in her innocence is evident on the baggage carousel at Bali's Denpasar airport. Almost all the bags are locked, or bound with straps, some even shrink-wrapped in plastic." [3]
My concern is that it sounds somewhat sensationalist. I can't see why you would assume that locked bags mean that people believe in her innocence, or that they weren't locking or shrink-wrapping bags prior to Corby being arrested. I can imagine people locking their bags irrespective of whether or not the belie in Corby's innocence, simply because it seems safer. :) - Bilby (talk) 03:51, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, sensible removal. HiLo48 (talk) 03:56, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
- So, you're saying that sourced content should be removed because you think it's illogical to take further security precautions because one woman may have faced a death sentence and did receive a long prison sentence, possibly because she didn't take such precautions? Just because you feel people's reactions may have been illogical doesn't mean your opinion overrides the sources. Nevard (talk) 04:23, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
- You're using a Miranda Devine opinion piece as a source. News from the SMH is usually a reliable source, but this is one rabble rouser's opinion. (Not a criticism of her. It's her paid job to be sensational.) If you attributed the quote to her it would be more honest, but that would show it's obviously not a reliable, objective source. We don't know if the Corby case has led to the claimed added security on baggage. We don't actually know if it is an increase. And we cannot possibly know why people are doing it, so I'm not suggesting their behaviour is illogical. HiLo48 (talk) 04:33, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
- Having unattributed opinion stated as fact is a violation of NPOV. Even attributing it is no good either as HiLo explains. Good removal. There's more that needs to come out of that section, such as the primary source quotation from Andrew Bolt. Has no place in the article. --Merbabu (talk) 08:49, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
- It's not really very clever to remove pieces by former Young Journalist of the Year winners. Do you have a problem with writing that hasn't been distributed through press agencies and still has a byline? Nevard (talk) 20:43, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
- You're using a Miranda Devine opinion piece as a source. News from the SMH is usually a reliable source, but this is one rabble rouser's opinion. (Not a criticism of her. It's her paid job to be sensational.) If you attributed the quote to her it would be more honest, but that would show it's obviously not a reliable, objective source. We don't know if the Corby case has led to the claimed added security on baggage. We don't actually know if it is an increase. And we cannot possibly know why people are doing it, so I'm not suggesting their behaviour is illogical. HiLo48 (talk) 04:33, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
- So, you're saying that sourced content should be removed because you think it's illogical to take further security precautions because one woman may have faced a death sentence and did receive a long prison sentence, possibly because she didn't take such precautions? Just because you feel people's reactions may have been illogical doesn't mean your opinion overrides the sources. Nevard (talk) 04:23, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
This looks a lot more reasonable. The previous edit implied that it was fact that the public as a whole believed her innocent. --Merbabu (talk) 22:23, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
- Further, i remember travelling to Bali at the height of the courtroom controversy and yes, there were people shrink wrapping their luggage, but they were a small minority of Australian travellers. Hardly proof of "public belief in her innocence." --Merbabu (talk) 22:27, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
- So.. you're saying that this was your personal experience. That's darling, but do you have a reliable source? Nevard (talk) 00:59, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
- John, don't forget your manners please. If one's argument is weak, sarcasm doesn't make it any stronger. --Merbabu (talk) 01:31, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
- So.. you're saying that this was your personal experience. That's darling, but do you have a reliable source? Nevard (talk) 00:59, 21 August 2011 (UTC)