Talk:School uniform

Clean up

I propose flagging this article for cleanup, or at least use of opinion. The "arguments for uniform" and "arguments against uniform" should be clearly stated, listed pros and cons, not a random 3 paragraphs at the bottom with obscure and somewhat illogical "facts". Wikipedia is supposed to read like a university textbook. (Not a highschool or elementary text, because those are sometimes written too personally.) At the very least, it should be coherent.

I also propose that this article uses "the arugment for uniforms". It can list the different effects that fashion has on childern going to school who do not have to wear uniforms to school. Some of the effects can or may include low self esteem for those who can not afford the name brand clothing, physcial and mental abuse from other students and also depression. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KHEnglish (talk • contribs) 19:27, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Had a go at tidying up the NZ section. Any other suggestions/alterations welcome. --noizyboy 23:19, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

In the section, common arguements against school uniforms, the points have been divided into "Violation of rights" and "Effectiveness", I think two of the points under effectiveness ("# Many uniforms are not gender-neutral, which may lead to exploitation or discrimination

1. "One-size-fits-all" style does not suit all students' body shapes") more properly belong in Violation of rights. Ie the percieved right for all students to have clothes that fit comfortably are somewhat flattering, and the percieved right for sexes not to be forced into gender stereotypes and to have different rules apply to them etc.

But this is a matter of opinion, so feel free to discuss this with me if you disagree about what section these arguements belong in.

The other thing that I would like to see is some external links to Non-US sources, I'm from Australia which has school uniforms in government schools, I know of one site which has arguements against school uniforms stemming from Queensland schools being involved in a legal debate about whether they could enforce uniforms. -- rom Totally right - Alexa —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.7.51.232 (talk) 23:48, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Compulsory?

I read somewhere that a school cannot remove you from class for not wearing the school uniform, apparently its against your rights. I was wondering, is this true? If someone could confirm this for me, or find me some sort of legal document that states it, I'd be grateful --JJMan 12:21, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Of Course a school can remove you if you are not wearing the school uniform. Lots of people do get removed. --Margaret —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.7.51.232 (talk) 23:50, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

It depends which country you are talking about. Laws vary from one country to another. Alarics (talk) 06:46, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Arguments for and against

The arguments for and against are POV, speculation and unreferen-points for and against that contradict each other. violet/riga (t) 11:26, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

When both POVs are given equal treatment, and additions allowed to be made, doesn't the POV become neautral in a for or against arguement? I don't think that a POV should be referenced in this circumstance.

But maybe a discussion would be better, but even in that your going to get conflicting opinions (they look good, they look bad) etc. -- rom

That section right now isn't "For" and "Against", it's "Argument" and "Refutation of argument". I'm going to be bold and remove it now, considering there's a (slightly) more NPOV section right below it. --Szabo 23:43, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

There's very little difference between "For" and "Against", and "Arguement" and "refutation" of arguement. There were arguements for and against, and then refutations of these arguements. The problem is that now there is no discussion at all as to the merits or otherwise of school uniforms, and the validity or otherwise of claims made about school uniforms.

-- rom

Grammar.

"School uniform are common..."

"No way!" Seriously. Capitan Obvio 00:31, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

School uniforms are common around the world, because many countries make their students wear uniforms.

They are sort of common. ♥- Sarah

This has a POV!!!!

This article needs more on the cons of school uniforms.

We are Uniform of Borg. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile.--Planetary 03:23, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Uniforms in other countries?

Australia also has school uniforms, as do a number of other countries - should they also be mentioned under a subheading of their own?

Germany / History

The article claims that school uniforms were "quite common" before the Second World War and fell out of use afterwards. To my knowledge there never was a significant presence of scool uniforms in Germany in the 20th century, and I guess not in earlier times either. Trying to verify that, I image-googled for strings like schulklasse 1920 etc., and could only find very scant evidence of school uniforms (this page has some examples, this image is more typical of the pictures you find). I think that school uniforms were an exception. --SKopp 23:32, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

When Hitler came to power, he made uniforms universal and compulsory.67.150.50.104 02:37, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

No, that is most certainly wrong. --SKopp 13:55, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually that was correct. Hitler made uniforms universal and compulsory when he took power.

Well, then perhaps you can name the title or date or text of the law or decree where Hitler did that? Or explain why it's so easy to find pictures of non-uniformed schoolclasses from the height of the Nazi rule? No you can't, because it's nonsense. I have in the meantime updated the article with a short historical overview of German school clothing, mostly taken from M. Freyer: Geschichte der Schulkleidung, in: H. Liedtke: Handbuch der Geschichte des Bayerischen Bildungswesens, Bd. 4, S. 273 ff. – the obvious regional bias notwithstanding, it seems to be one of very few good sources on the matter. --SKopp 11:36, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

USA - Incomplete Sentence

Although many private school uniforms are similar to the ones described below for public schools, a few still require more formal British-style school uniforms

(See words in Bold)

There appears to have been some deleting/moving done at some point which led to there being no description of public school uniforms "below" the quoted sentence. Mip | Talk 15:11, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Do you think that this site deserves a mention in the resource links? “Singapore Home Tuition” — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alipapa123 (talk • contribs) 04:30, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Me Me Me Me

It says Malta requires kids to bring pets to school or they face the death penalty. This is ridiculous. It looks like blatant vandalism.--theRealdeal

There was some vandalism that wasn't completely reverted. That's now been fixed. Thank you for pointing out the problem. ^BlankVerse 13:24, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

relevence of your opinion

i dont see how whether you like/support school uniforms or not is relevent to an encylopedia article. as far as i can tell there is no raging controversy or public debate about the use of school uniforms in the countries in which they exist. there certainly isnt in australia. maybe some petulent schoolkids dont like them but really, who cares? it really isnt worth noting. i dont like the dentist. i dont expect ppl's oppinion of the dentist to be in the [dentist] article. i want to know the 'facts'. apparently everything on wikipedia is a topic of hot controversy. aussietiger 12:39, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism?

In the Efficiency section:

The study also found that uniforms had a negative effect on student attitudes because the students feel like everyone else, whereas Mufti tends to improve students attitude towards school and allows them to express their personality.

What should "Mufti" be replaced with? Samurai 004 11:14, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I see someone's now wikilinked it — it's a word for casual clothes. I've certainly used it for as long as I can remember. I don't think it's vandalism. Angus Lepper^{(T, C, D)} 18:28, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

This sounds to me like a localised colloquialism and should probably be changed to something more formal as I have never hear the term and the only source cited for mufti was Australian. 82.41.15.93 (talk) 20:35, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Efficiency

This section sounds a bit like it may be in need of some citation, if people agree, maybe we could whack a label or something on...what do we think? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dragonkillernz (talk • contribs) 11:16, 24 April 2007 (UTC).

Under the Efficiency heading, what's up with this? "Unfortunately, many researchers find his study and data flawed. Interpolation of data for his own means brings into light his objectivity. The fact that he has represents the ACLU in numerous court battles as an advocate against school uniforms cements his position, and his belief in his research, no matter how erroneous."

This looks like an unsupported slam against some researchers. Ideally someone would actually cite some study that criticized the original research; otherwise, this language should simply disappear. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.99.95.253 (talk) 16:44, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

mufti

Why does Mufti in the Efficiancy section link to a position of power within the Muslim tradition?! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.31.133.169 (talk) 04:31, 25 April 2007 (UTC).

History of uniform

There is nothing about history of school uniform in this article. We need to add it here. --Andysoft 11:28, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

NPOV in Efficiency

I tagged the section Efficiency with a NPOV tag as it is totally biased against school uniforms. It sounds like whoever wrote this was totally biased against uniform, and a counter to this study should at least be put up, as it is not broad enough in its coverage. It makes it sound like Nazism, illogical, which it is obviously not, as most schools throughout the world adopt uniform policies. Chat to me and give ideas. SS 12:47, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

If it makes uniforms sound like Nazism...then it's because uniforms ARE Nazism.

That's not NPOV. SS 04:03, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Malaysian School Uniform Pictures

There has been a 'revert war' between Egard89 and I over whether to keep the Malaysian school uniform pictures. He claimed "well..i just see a bunch of hoo-haa's wants to see themself on the *internet*.....geez, get a friendster or something...".

This is my defence:

1. As school uniforms are a form of apparel - it is best illustrated when they are worn.

2. I think we should appreciate that the subjects are willing to contribute to Wikipedia as opposed to a bunch of show-offs. Furthermore, their names are not published - I do not see how a person can derive fame or ego out of it.

I recognise that improvements can always be made. However, until then - I believe that the pictures should be kept, until better ones could be found and published. Thank you. Cavernosa 11:23, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Looking at the situation, I am quite disappointed with what Egard89 was doing.

1. He did not seem to have proper reasons except to purposely delete the pictures from the page. Initially the reason was "Due to the uniform image in malaysia only shows a certain type of uniform. Someone should send aan image which show more comprenhansive malaysian uniform". I agree that a picture showing not just secondary uniforms but also primary school uniforms will be ideal, but to keep the current pictures until a better one could be found. Subsequently, he gave a reason that "well..i just see a bunch of hoo-haa's wants to see themself on the *internet*.....geez, get a friendster or something...". I find that he has been changing the reason as to why he feel the picture is not suitable.

2. A picture speaks a thousand words. The best way to illustrate what the school uniform of Malaysia is like is by posting pictures. It is ridiculous why he claim that the pictures are an act of 'showing oneself in the internet', when he did not claim the picture of UK, or for this matter, any other pictures in Wikipedia/Wikicommons with human faces as "an act of showing off oneself in the internet".Cavernosa 13:34, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Comment — I have warned both the anonymous IP and Egard89 as they were both in violation of The Three Revert Rule. I urge participants in this discussion to reach a consensus on this talk page before making further changes to the article regarding the inclusion of this image. I've placed this article on my watchlist and will report any further violations without warning. Angus Lepper^{(T, C, D)} 14:54, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I apologize for that, I forgot about that particular rule. I won't be reverting that again today, but if need be, I'll keep it up tomorrow unless Egard89 can give us a good reason not to include those pictures. 142.176.46.3 15:21, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Do not continue tomorrow. This would be considered vandalism, and as noted at WP:3RR, is still a block-worthy offence as it counts as Gaming the System. Angus Lepper^{(T, C, D)} 15:25, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I gotcha. Let's see this turn into an actual intelligent conversation, folks. Bring your statement in here, Egard89, I want to hear it. 142.176.46.3 15:38, 17 June 2007 (UTC

Someone needs to check the validity of source #4. its arguments are both unsupported and illogical Dancks 19:28, 12 July 2007 (UTC)dancks

Hi. Did you mean the part where Malaysian girls, if they were to wear the baju kurung, are required to wear plain-coloured camisole? I can confirm that many schools, including the school that I attended, requires girls to wear a camisole under their baju kurung for reasons of modesty. In many schools, it is not really a 'written' rule, but an 'oral' rule that is enforced nevertheless - students have been told off, or even asked to get one before allowed in schools. Cavernosa 11:47, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Protected

I've protected this page due to the tremendous amount of edit warring going on. I would strongly advise all parties involved to use that time to discuss the matter or if need be seek dispute resolution, and not to continue the edit war once the protection expires. Hopefully this can be resolved without any further trouble. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 03:37, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

It is common knowledge that a large number of Singaporean female students wear shorts underneath their uniform for a variety of reasons. This is true for many other countries.213.48.73.89 09:17, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

a theory

in theory school uniforms makes students wear similar clothing therfore i theory there should be less bullying about clothes. Just because you were a uniform dose not meen that they will be no fights. there is still bulling and the problems still do not go away. they did test on the fact that if you ware a uniform there are no figths but there are. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.220.102.253 (talk) 15:00, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

In theory? The theory you are talking about must be that bullying is due to differences between students - perhaps - but school uniforms don't eliminate differences, by making a group homogeneous in one respect you may only be highlighting differences in other respects. Japan is ethnically homogeneous and has strict uniforms but is fairly infamous for severe bullying. Keep that in mind. In any case such generalizations need references, and the reference we have on the subject states that student relations are not improved by uniforms. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.253.78.98 (talk) 00:32, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

China?

How come no unformation about chinese school uniform? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.83.164.199 (talk) 03:46, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

China is moving away from uniforms. Check out this article here:

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200401/01/eng20040101_131668.shtml

69.61.220.146 (talk) 01:14, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

India

Most schools in India and schools that follow Indian curriculum usually always have a standard uniform code for students. Howcome there isn't a section for India in this article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.246.40.54 (talk) 15:23, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

South Africa / Africa

many african countries (former british colonies) have uniforms - in south africa , uniform is as strict as singapore can we please write about the forgotten continent , and what about s.america? they might not have school uniforms but if so, then write so. i was wondering also if we could make a table of countries who have school uniforms. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bezuidenhout (talk • contribs) 06:32, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

UK

As a UK student I'd say that the assertion 'almost all British schools require pupils to wear uniforms' is false, is there any evidence for this? From my own experience I'd say that most primary schools and sixth-forms do not require uniform. 82.26.21.81 (talk) 16:23, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Where do you live??? I have never seen one primary school in Britain in my life that doesn't wear a uniform. After a large discussion on the Inbetweeners IMDB board we came to the conclusion that sixth forms wearing uniform was half and half. My school wore it (My primary school did and they have since introduced a non-compulsory nursery uniform consisting of a jumper and hat) Sweetie candykim (talk) 22:36, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Singapore

Why was the section on Singapore removed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.23.56.7 (talk) 20:13, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Nazi Germany

We need to re-add the part about Nazi Germany, and the fact that Nazi Germany required uniforms. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.49.4.11 (talk) 01:01, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree. We definitely need to re-add it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.215.147.95 (talk) 02:50, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

While one can hardly disagree with the claim that "Nazi Germany required uniforms", they weren't school uniforms, and the country-specific section on Germany reflected that.

Someone felt that the section should cite sources, and tagged it as such. On 30 November 2008 DAJF deleted the section because it had been tagged as not referencing sources for too long. I have now re-instated the section, including the source that I used for the pre-Nazi era part. --SKopp (talk) 19:26, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

'Bad Uniform'

At my school (I live in the UK and am in year 9) by december year 7 nearly everyone, boys and girls, undo their top buttons, untuck shirts and roll up their skirts (in the case of girls, obviously). This is the same through out every school in my town, grammar and all. Admittedly I only recently started doing it. None of the schools are bad, in fact they are all ranked in the top 50 so why isn't this mentioned?

After year 8 most people never do their top buttons up when asked to, they just tighten their ties alot and push them right up. Ties aren't worn properly either. 95jb14 (talk) 19:25, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Nobody is stopping you from mentioning it in the article, if you can find a reliable source to support it. Your own personal experience doesn't count, as that would constitute WP:OR. --- Alarics (talk) 20:54, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

France

Should there be information about school uniforms in France? Angie Y. (talk) 23:57, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Too Casual, Too short, Too uninformative.

This is in the Subheading "Indonesia":

In primary school, the boys wore the school shirt, school tie, school pants, school capand belt. The girls wear school shirts and school skirt.

At scout, the boys wore a hat, a scout shirt, a scout tie, scout pants and badges. The girl wears a scout tie, a scout skirt, a scout shirt and badges. Note this is not only siaga. At international school such as SBGG and Springfield, they don't wear attire. File:Imgres.jpg

This stub was poorly done. First, what exactly is a "School Shirt"? or "School Pants"? The writer didn't specify any style, cloth, or other implement used in the uniform to give it distinction with other uniforms from other countries. Same goes for the Scouting Uniform. Everybody knows what a Scouting Uniform looks like. It wasn't specified that they wear other types of unifrom then the ones prescribed by the Boy Scout Movement. And the Term Siaga, which I found out to demote Scouting badges, wasn't elaborated nor defined.

Second comes with the "Kinda Cool" phrase. Wikipedia is an Encyclopedia. It is not a forum. It must only contain fact and not Opinion. What looks cool for one may not look cool for another. Such informality is not suitable for a Wikipedia article.

Last is the mention of SBGG and Springfield. What is the meaning of SBGG? And what is Springfield? Is it Springfield in the Simpsons? or Springfield Massachusetts? One must ensure that the facts are cmplete so that users of Wikipedia won't get confused. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nejibana17 (talk • contribs) 10:26, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

A article or a gallery?

Well, the article contains a lot of stuff related to school uniforms, but it has became a great gallery of photos. Can someone remove non-neccessary photos, or adding to the gallery on Commons. Thanks. --MisterWiki talking! :-D - 22:06, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

support some of the stuff here doesnt belong to an encyclopaedic article. the wikimedia commons caters to this stuff

I'd like to agree with you, and it looks like our calls have gone unnoticed...if nothing changes, I'll do it myself. Deagle_AP (talk) 09:51, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Privacy issue?

I'm not too sure about what Wikipedia says about privacy issues surrounding children, but some of the pictures, such as File:School uniforms GBR.jpg, might be a breach of privacy. Whilst I don't completely agree with some of the Politically Correct views of children on the web, we don't know whether permission was granted for the picture to be taken. I'm just wandering what other editors' views are... 95jb14 (talk) 18:55, 10 January 2010 (UTC).

They look quite pleased to have their picture taken. I say leave it unless somebody complains. If people appear in public they are in the public domain and anyone should be able to take a picture of them. -- Alarics (talk) 20:21, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Efficacy

The Efficacy section needs to be fixed. It seems to reference a source that argues how school uniforms are ineffective. It is immediately followed by a quote that supports the effectiveness of uniforms.

I'm only a passing visitor. However, someone needs to separate the pros and cons and provide a source for the second quotation. If the second quotation comes from the source above it, then the fact that that source provides different conclusions needs to be mentioned. It's poorly written.

I'd also recommend that the efficacy section be expanded. I would suggest that people will visit this article primarily to get information on the pros and cons of school uniforms, as well as if they are a good idea. The types of uniforms around the world are probably of secondary importance to visitors and researchers. While some may argue that point, there are certainly many studies available on this subject. A comprehensive sysnthesis of those studies would be a valuable addition to that section of this article. Airborne84 (talk) 05:28, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

nonsensical additions by country

"Country X has school uniforms" doesnt constitute an article of encyclopaedic value. Im sure there are schools in every country that do and do not have uniforms (not to mention mufti days (which can be mentioned here). Some other sections have more info but are not or poorly sourced. We didnt need to add countries for the sake of it. the ones that are sourced are good to keep, the rest should be improved or taken out.(Lihaas (talk) 02:45, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

The "by country" section is just ridiculously long, listing an absurd number of countries and going into excessive detail for arbitrarily chosen ones. It needs to be severely trimmed to give at most a sample of a few countries, well sourced. A subarticle called school uniforms by country or something similar can be created if need be. Richard001 (talk) 01:38, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

File:Boy In School Uniform.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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Cuban schoolgirls

I dont think this image is of cuban girls. the sign indicates its venezuela, and che could easily be portrayed on a school there. image name may be misleading.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 08:10, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

USA

Hi all

After reading the section on school uniforms in America, I was under the impression that most Americans have school uniforms (or were forced to follow a very strict dress code). I just completed high school in Wisconsin, and have yet to encounter anyone who was forced to wear any kind of uniform. Yes, there was a dress code. For my school that was something along the lines of:

• no showing boxers or bras
• no gang stuff (I don't know what exactly this entailed..)
• no adult content (alcohol, cigarettes, etc)

However, one was still permitted to come to school in any of these combinations

• a t-shirt, jeans, and sneakers (guys or girls)
• a t-shirt, pajama bottoms, and sneakers (guys or girls)
• a blouse, leggings, and flats (girls)
• a suit (guys)

To the best of my knowledge, these rules were quite universal in middle class, suburban, midwestern American schools. I do not feel that the Wikipedia article reflects this reality. 129.22.18.203 (talk) 03:22, 23 March 2012 (UTC)