Talk:Israel Defense Forces

Israeli soldiers get paid $125 a month

How do they get by on that? Do they get food stamps or something? Hcobb (talk) 20:10, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

You can't spend too much money on duty. You wear your uniform, eat in your dining room, and sleep in your barracks. When you're on vacation, your parents take care about you. So the answer is no, no food-stamps. Flayer (talk) 22:52, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

How about their families? Do they have starving naked kids on the streets or what? Hcobb (talk) 14:25, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

18 years old conscripts usually don't have wives and children, however married soldiers are being payed much more. Same with soldiers who don't have supporting parents for some reason, they are being payed much more. Obviously, after three years of mandatory service every soldier on career service has a normal salary (starting from $2000-$3000 a month). Actually ~$125 refers only for conscripts in non-combat positions during three years of mandatory service. Fighters get up to ~$300 during during three years of mandatory service. Flayer (talk) 15:10, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Hcobb, your sourceless and highly inflammatory attacks on subjects are getting exceedingly tiresome. Take it off Wikipedia if this is how you want to operate. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 17:51, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Do you have a ref for the extra payments? This doesn't seem to be covered at all here or in the conscript article, hence my asking. Hcobb (talk) 18:47, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm an Israeli who served in IDF. The extra payment for married soldiers, orphan soldiers, and impecunious soldiers on their regular service is a well known issue here in Israel, but I don't think I'll be able to find refs, especial English refs about that. Flayer (talk) 19:20, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

All I'm getting is little snippets like: http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/conscripts-without-any-rights-1.386180 I was just shocked that any Middle Eastern country could pay starvation wages to the majority of their army and not get a new government installed at bayonet point. Hcobb (talk) 21:17, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Suggesting, with zero basis, that there are children starving on the street from this is not "just asking"! --OuroborosCobra (talk) 21:24, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

The numbers in the article at this moment paint that exact picture. There are obviously subsidies in the system that we have overlooked. Hcobb (talk) 22:00, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Baloney. The numbers in the article paint absolutely no such picture, not without any information on actually HAVING CHILDREN in the picture, cost of living in the country, what other services are provided (housing, even in barracks, for example). No, what we have is your BS and POV again. Take it off Wikipedia. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 22:21, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

If I may throw some light on the subject :

for men :

• married soldier will get a 2K NIS (500$) salary boost, and may have a salary of upto ~3K NIS (~700$) when serving under normal draft.
• married soldier with children may be offered a short (less then three years) or removed from duty
• "after three years of mandatory service every soldier on career service has a normal salary of starting from $2000-$3000 a month)" is just plain wrong : the starting salary for a married soldier (not an officer) is the minimum wage (~1000$) ~4000 NIS the common salary for a non educated (without a bachelor degree )and non combat personal for the first five years is up to 9K (2250$).

for any soldier : he get 100% subside for city wages (can be up to 300$ in some cities) , gets a subsidy for childcare (taking into account only his wife income).

109.226.54.190 (talk) 21:00, 29 February 2012 (UTC) an ex carrier soldier

¿$125 converts to what in Isræl? In most of the Americas, $125/month is a livable wage; Even in Canada, it’s nothing to sniff at. I was able to live on little more than twice that in Sacramento (by no means the cheapest living, but far from the worst). With this in mind, don’t think quite so literally. A. J. REDDSON

In Israel soldiers are not supposed to live on $125/month. It is just for cigarettes and drinks. Flayer (talk) 15:44, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

as Flayer pointed out the salary isn't supposed to provide enough to be livable wage - for a note a minimum wage in israel for 2012 is around 1000$ (~4000NIS), there is an asumption in the military that any soldier that does not request help don't need it, the case for non maried soldiers without helping families (no contact , valunteer , no live reletives) :

• the army provdie housing on and off base (when the former is less common)
• person could recive helping tuation by providing legal docuents for the abscense of help or if his family needs his help

a person could not afford to live with this kind of salary: renting a room in the perphria of IL will be around 75$ for a month in very poor neighbourhood (the type where you can buy drugs in the streets in the middle of the day). food for a single only for two weekends can be lowered to 100 NIS (25$) (to have three vegeterian meals per day for each weekend). but the amount of soldiers that will choose this kind of life is extremly low

 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.226.53.223 (talk) 15:22, 7 March 2012 (UTC) 

Proposal

Currently, under the heading of "foreign suppliers" a slew of countries, who contribute less than insignificant amounts to the IDF, are noted. Only the major suppliers such as the United States and perhaps Germany and the U.K. should be noted. I propose we eliminate the rest. It's kind of silly to list Bosnia and India as arms suppliers for the IDF. I don't know of any weapons platform in use by the IDF that comes from Brasil or Serbia.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 01:57, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

All suppliers should be noted, including small ones.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 03:48, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Why? that doesn't seem to be done on other similar pages. for example, the Syrian armed forces page only lists the top 4. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.204.165.25 (talk) 04:06, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

You are free to ad more at the SAF article if you have sources for it. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 04:14, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

The source is already given in that article (http://armstrade.sipri.org/armstrade/page/values.php), and it gives more than twice the number of suppliers currently listed. I don't want to add more suppliers to other articles, nor to this one. I want you to explain why you think this should be done, when it doesn't seem to be the norm for similar articles. Better yet, since you edit a lot of Syrian articles, how about YOU add all those other countries supplying Syria. You know, just to show your good faith. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.204.165.25 (talk) 04:22, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Just because other articles aren't as informative as this one doesn't mean we should downgrade the standard here. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 04:27, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

I take it you won't be making the Syrian Armed Forces article more informative, then? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.204.165.25 (talk) 04:31, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

The infobox is not the place to be putting extensive lists of suppliers, no matter how small. It results in an unwieldy and large infobox. We can have a section in the article for a more complete list. There is precedence for this on Wikipedia. Military aircraft articles, for example, only list the top three users after the primary, and then put a link to see the rest in the article. There is no reason to have dozens of suppliers listed in the infobox. The top few are enough, and then we can have more detail in the article itself. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 05:12, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. Aside from the United States, is there any other country that should be listed? Germany perhaps because they supply the Dolphin Class submarines. But that should be it.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 14:47, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Depth Corps

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/appointment-of-idf-s-new-iran-command-chief-raises-eyebrows-1.402023?localLinksEnabled=false

Should the Depth Corps be mentioned here or in a more in-depth article? Hcobb (talk) 06:07, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

A comprehensive separate article would be best, of course, seeing as the other "regional commands" only have a link to their articles. A "Depth Command" article modeled after the other three... if you (or me, or anyone else) could spare the time. PluniAlmoni (talk) 16:48, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Religion/Judaism related controversies in the IDF

Recently there has been much talk about the refusal of some religious Jewish male soldiers to follow orders that they feel that are against their beliefs, e.g. hearing women sing in army ceremonies. Adding to that the refusal of some Religious Zionists to take part in forced evacuations of Israeli settlements on religious grounds - and the support some of them get from Rabbis, which is related to the whole "taking orders from commanders or rabbis" debate, and I think there's a sufficient basis for a separate article with said headline ("Religion in the IDF" - Judaism section) while of course including a reference to it in this article (service section or controversies?). There's currently a section dealing with the singing in the Women in the IDF article, but since it has little to do with female soldiers than with religious males, I feel that a separate article dealing with the entire aspect of religion would be best. I'll try to come up with something... meanwhile I'd appreciate any input you may have. PluniAlmoni (talk) 16:48, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I think the info is relevant to Women in the Israel Defense Forces, but there's no problem with also having an article such as Religion in the Israel Defense Forces. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 10:53, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Israel-South African military relations

I see that the section pertaining to Israel/South African military relations has been deleted in this edit. I recall that this is actually in contradiction of the consensus which was reached on the talk-page. Would anyone object to it being reintroduced? Poyani (talk) 21:54, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

As noted in previous talks, this relationship has been the subject of far more coverage and research than, say, Israel's military relations with India. Poyani (talk) 22:13, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Looking back in the archive, I see two editors (Wikifan and Marokwitz) opposed to this content, and only you supporting its inclusion, so I don't see much support for the claim that the removal is "in contradiction of the consensus which was reached on the talk-page." You need to get consensus for it if you want it included. The IDF relationship with India is documented in reliable sources, and pretty much uncontroversial. The speculation about the IDF's involvement in SA's nuclear program is, well, speculation. It would need a much higher quality source than Hedges.Jeff Song (talk) 00:12, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) You tried this before, Poyani. You did not present the past consensus then, and other editors pointed out that "IDF" and "Israel" are not synonymous. Your content doesn't have to do with the IDF, but with Israeli foreign policy. This isn't the article on Israeli foreign relations. The removed content asserts Israeli "army" involvement, but the sources do not once suggest a relationship between the Israeli "army" and South Africa. The content only appears to fit in the page by contradicting its sources, and otherwise does not belong on this page as it isn't about the IDF, but about Israel. Searching through the rest of the archives, I do not find consensus, as you claim, for inclusion of content on South Africa. I find a few talk page discussions where you push for inclusion, and most everyone else disagrees for reasons similar to what I have now stated. The content stays out. There was no consensus for inclusion, and as it was currently written, it was a misrepresentation of the source material. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 00:20, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Incomplete source

Jabotito48, you added an incomplete source here[1] when I click on it it doesn't direct me to any book or other source. Could you please say what source it is and provide a direct quotation from the source here. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:26, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Jabotito48, I checked p 225 and it did not contain any of the info you allege that it supports. The two other pages are not viewable for me. Please provide the quote from the source. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 02:35, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Quote p 93: The Druze acquiesced and by the beginning of May, 212 soldiers in Wahab's regiment had deserted and returned to Jabal Druze.--Jabotito48 (talk) 20:42, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

How do we go from what the source is saying - that they returned to Syria, to what you added to the article - that they "joined Israel" ? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 02:48, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

You are right. I change the sources:

A) During the British Mandate over Palestine they refrained from taking part in the Arab-Jewish conflict, and during Israel's War of Independence (1948) became active participants on Israel's side.

B) And so, in 1948, many Druze fought for Israel, and in the early years of the state many joined the Israeli army voluntarily.--Jabotito48 (talk) 04:16, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Jabotito48, the sentence currently says: "During the Israeli Independence War, many Druze soldiers and officers on the Arab side deserted and joined Israel." I checked the two sources and could not find any info that any Druze who fought on the Arab side, deserted and joined Israel. Could you please point out where in the sources this is? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 14:23, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Jabotito48 is a blocked sock. Sean.hoyland - talk 16:10, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

See [2] Some returned to their villages while others assisted the Israelis in various capacities per Gelber. That should put that matter to rest.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 18:06, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

As for foreign suppliers, see consensus and position above[3] I am a bit puzzled though. Why note a supplier, that hasn't supplied anything since 1990? Moreover, the source at the cited page reference says nothing of South Africa supplying military equipment to Israel.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 18:21, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't have access to the book right now, but Morris discusses the issue of the Druze changing sides in his 1948. Specifically after the battle of Ramat Yochanan, IIRC. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:03, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I do recall that in Morris' book. However, it's confirmed through Gelber as well. Not all joined the IDF. Some did and some assisted in other ways while others simply retired to their respective villages. There are other sources as well such as The major example is the Syrian Druze battalion that eventually defected from the Arabs and fought with the Haganah in the 1948 War. and Young Druze started fighting alongside Jews in 1947, when Druze community elders agreed to allow them to serve in the pre-state Haganah militia.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 20:38, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I confirm for Gelber. Details are already in this article

I add that Yoav Gelber is a specialist on the topic. He published 'Druzes and Jews in the war of 1948', Middle Eastern Studies, April 1948.

81.247.97.117 (talk) 17:08, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Kill Maim

Case: civilian maimed by terrorist

Response: Kill the terrorist official

Delay: No — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.113.6.133 (talk) 01:17, 9 June 2012 (UTC)