Talk:1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight

4000?

The article says "By mid-4 May 000 Arabs remained in Haifa." Could this be "By mid-May 4000 Arabs remained in Haifa"?VR _talk 05:59, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

I checked the source, and you're right. I fixed it. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 16:18, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Request

Can somebody please mention (bullys keep the truth) that there were anti-Jewish riots or Exodus that can be just as exaggerated as yours if people wern't so scared of Muslims and Anti-Semites, in 1929 or is that POV, or as dishonest as the Palestinian comedy? You will not lie forever. Maryester (talk) 00:37, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Can someone please mention that I found three newspapers that reported that Jews were being shot for praying at their holy sites during the late 19 and early 20 Century, prior to Israel, in Hebron and Jerusalem? Maryester (talk) 00:41, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

What does this have to do with the 1948 Palestinian exodus? RolandR (talk) 00:59, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Changes after the advent of the 'New Historians'

regarding the recent addition, the section should cover the main changes after the advent of the 'New Historians' not discuss specific details where one or other of the New Historians may happen to agree with the official Israeli narrative.

For a more balanced appraisal of Morris' position on orders for evacuation by Arabs see Ben Ami p43 2006, "It is not at all clear, as maintained by a conventional Israeli myth, that the Palestinian exodus was encouraged by the Arab states and by local leaders. Benny Morris found no evidence to show ‘that either the leaders of the Arab states or the Mufti ordered or directly encouraged the mass exodus’. Indeed, Morris found evidence to the effect that the local Arab leadership and militia commanders discouraged flight, and Arab radio stations issued calls to the Palestinians to stay put, and even to return to their homes if they had already left. True, there were more than a few cases where local Arab commanders ordered the evacuation of villages. But these seemed to have been tactical decisions taken under very specific military conditions; they did not respond to an overall strategy either of the local Palestinian leaders or of the Arab states." Dlv999 (talk) 13:52, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

And even for an even more 'balanced' appraisal, we have the man himself:

The Palestinian Arabs were not responsible "in some bizarre way" (David Norris, January 31st) for what befell them in 1948. Their responsibility was very direct and simple.

In defiance of the will of the international community, as embodied in the UN General Assembly Resolution of November 29th, 1947 (No. 181), they launched hostilities against the Jewish community in Palestine in the hope of aborting the emergence of the Jewish state and perhaps destroying that community. But they lost; and one of the results was the displacement of 700,000 of them from their homes.

It is true, as Erskine Childers pointed out long ago, that there were no Arab radio broadcasts urging the Arabs to flee en masse; indeed, there were broadcasts by several Arab radio stations urging them to stay put. But, on the local level, in dozens of localities around Palestine, Arab leaders advised or ordered the evacuation of women and children or whole communities, as occurred in Haifa in late April, 1948. And Haifa's Jewish mayor, Shabtai Levy, did, on April 22nd, plead with them to stay, to no avail.

Most of Palestine's 700,000 "refugees" fled their homes because of the flail of war (and in the expectation that they would shortly return to their homes on the backs of victorious Arab invaders). But it is also true that there were several dozen sites, including Lydda and Ramla, from which Arab communities were expelled by Jewish troops.

The displacement of the 700,000 Arabs who became "refugees" - and I put the term in inverted commas, as two-thirds of them were displaced from one part of Palestine to another and not from their country (which is the usual definition of a refugee) - was not a "racist crime" (David Landy, January 24th) but the result of a national conflict and a war, with religious overtones, from the Muslim perspective, launched by the Arabs themselves.

There was no Zionist "plan" or blanket policy of evicting the Arab population, or of "ethnic cleansing". Plan Dalet (Plan D), of March 10th, 1948 (it is open and available for all to read in the IDF Archive and in various publications), was the master plan of the Haganah - the Jewish military force that became the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) - to counter the expected pan-Arab assault on the emergent Jewish state. That's what it explicitly states and that's what it was. And the invasion of the armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Iraq duly occurred, on May 15th.

It is true that Plan D gave the regional commanders carte blanche to occupy and garrison or expel and destroy the Arab villages along and behind the front lines and the anticipated Arab armies' invasion routes. And it is also true that mid-way in the 1948 war the Israeli leaders decided to bar the return of the "refugees" (those "refugees" who had just assaulted the Jewish community), viewing them as a potential fifth column and threat to the Jewish state's existence. I for one cannot fault their fears or logic.

Morris prefaces this by noting a tendency of Israel-haters of "citing - and more often, mis-citing - my work in support of their arguments". This analysis appears to be particularly apt.Ankh.Morpork 14:14, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

I can't find any of this in the article you cite[[1]. The article does include a letter from Morris to the Irish Times, but this is very different from the text you pasted above. Please check, and confirm the source of this text. RolandR (talk) 15:05, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

The article does cite the salient features of Morris' most recent comments but I thought providing the full version would be more accurate. If you would rather this is reduced to the specific conclusions cited, I will not object. (I am not sure what you mean when you state "I can't find any of this in the article" seeing as it smacks you in the face on first sight) Ankh.Morpork 15:14, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

So you saw fit to throw in an offensive remark about the how "particularly apt" BM's comments about "Israel-haters", "citing - and more often, mis-citing - my work" were, but you didn't even bother to accurately represent your own cited source. Dlv999 (talk) 15:31, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

I thought it would be helpful to provide the full version of Morris' clarification of views seeing as it was located behind a paywall. Ankh.Morpork 15:43, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

In a 2010 Benny Morris interview (Middle East Quarterly;Summer2010, Vol. 17 Issue 3, p63) he explicitly stated that, "In general the Arabs fled; afterward we destroyed their villages and did not permit them to return. There were only cases of expulsion in a few places." I suggest we allow Morris to speak for himself.Ankh.Morpork 16:36, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Here is Morris speaking for himself. http://hnn.us/roundup/entries/3036.html how much of this would you like to add in. Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 21:41 Benny Morris: How His History of Israel Is at Odds with His New Role as a Hardliner.

In a long and explosive interview in Haaretz in January 2004, Benny Morris, the revisionist Israeli historian, explains how he reconciles his defense of Zionism with his research, which demonstrates that war atrocities were associated with the founding of Israel. His latest book is, Righteous Victims: A History of the Zionist-Arab Conflict, 1881-2001.

Benny Morris, in the month ahead the new version of your book on the birth of the Palestinian refugee problem is due to be published. Who will be less pleased with the book - the Israelis or the Palestinians?

"The revised book is a double-edged sword. It is based on many documents that were not available to me when I wrote the original book, most of them from the Israel Defense Forces Archives. What the new material shows is that there were far more Israeli acts of massacre than I had previously thought. To my surprise, there were also many cases of rape. In the months of April-May 1948, units of the Haganah [the pre-state defense force that was the precursor of the IDF] were given operational orders that stated explicitly that they were to uproot the villagers, expel them and destroy the villages themselves.

"At the same time, it turns out that there was a series of orders issued by the Arab Higher Committee and by the Palestinian intermediate levels to remove children, women and the elderly from the villages. So that on the one hand, the book reinforces the accusation against the Zionist side, but on the other hand it also proves that many of those who left the villages did so with the encouragement of the Palestinian leadership itself."...

Are you saying that Ben-Gurion was personally responsible for a deliberate and systematic policy of mass expulsion?

"From April 1948, Ben-Gurion is projecting a message of transfer. There is no explicit order of his in writing, there is no orderly comprehensive policy, but there is an atmosphere of [population] transfer. The transfer idea is in the air. The entire leadership understands that this is the idea. The officer corps understands what is required of them. Under Ben-Gurion, a consensus of transfer is created."

Ben-Gurion was a"transferist"?

"Of course. Ben-Gurion was a transferist. He understood that there could be no Jewish state with a large and hostile Arab minority in its midst. There would be no such state. It would not be able to exist."

I don't hear you condemning him.

"Ben-Gurion was right. If he had not done what he did, a state would not have come into being. That has to be clear. It is impossible to evade it. Without the uprooting of the Palestinians, a Jewish state would not have arisen here."

Benny Morris, for decades you have been researching the dark side of Zionism. You are an expert on the atrocities of 1948. In the end, do you in effect justify all this? Are you an advocate of the transfer of 1948?

"There is no justification for acts of rape. There is no justification for acts of massacre. Those are war crimes. But in certain conditions, expulsion is not a war crime. I don't think that the expulsions of 1948 were war crimes. You can't make an omelet without breaking eggs. You have to dirty your hands."

We are talking about the killing of thousands of people, the destruction of an entire society.

"A society that aims to kill you forces you to destroy it. When the choice is between destroying or being destroyed, it's better to destroy." Dalai lama ding dong (talk) 16:50, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

The sentence "Morris writes that in some areas..." is a good fit between the two on either side of it. With it we get Morris's conclusion that Jewish military attacks were the main cause, how that worked, and the influence of Morris' work. Without it, the last sentence might seem to contradict the first. Tom Harrison ^Talk 22:18, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Reporting Morris findings in "some areas...." but not the his main findings of "no evidence to show ‘that either the leaders of the Arab states or the Mufti ordered or directly encouraged the mass exodus’. Indeed, Morris found evidence to the effect that the local Arab leadership and militia commanders discouraged flight, and Arab radio stations issued calls to the Palestinians to stay put, and even to return to their homes if they had already left." is clearly cherry picking details to fit POV. Dlv999 (talk) 23:04, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

It's about good writing, not cherry-picking details to advance my POV. If you're going to impugn my motives, there's little point in further discussion. Tom Harrison ^Talk 23:47, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Morris' views appear to have changed over the years and this need to be reflected in the article. He stated when deliberately clarifying his views on the 1948 War and refugees because of "citing - and more often, mis-citing - my work":

Most of Palestine's 700,000 "refugees" fled their homes because of the flail of war (and in the expectation that they would shortly return to their homes on the backs of victorious Arab invaders). There was no Zionist "plan" or blanket policy of evicting the Arab population, or of "ethnic cleansing". Plan Dalet of March 10, 1948, was the master plan of the Haganah - the Jewish military force that became the Israel Defence Forces - to counter the expected pan-Arab assault on the emergent Jewish state. And the invasion of the armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Iraq duly occurred, on May 15. It is true that Plan D gave the regional commanders carte blanche to occupy and garrison or expel and destroy the Arab villages along and behind the front lines and the anticipated Arab armies' invasion routes. And it is also true that midway in the 1948 war the Israeli leaders decided to bar the return of the "refugees" (those "refugees" who had just assaulted the Jewish community), viewing them as a potential fifth column and threat to the Jewish state's existence. I for one cannot fault their fears or logic.

Currently, the rigid interpretation of his views in the article does not represent the more recently expressed statements of clarification by Morris himelf. Ankh.Morpork 00:27, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Here is more material from Morris:

Q: They perpetrated ethnic cleansing.

Morris: "There are circumstances in history that justify ethnic cleansing. I know that this term is completely negative in the discourse of the 21st century, but when the choice is between ethnic cleansing and genocide - the annihilation of your people - I prefer ethnic cleansing."

Q: And that was the situation in 1948?

Morris: "That was the situation. That is what Zionism faced. A Jewish state would not have come into being without the uprooting of 700,000 Palestinians. Therefore it was necessary to uproot them. There was no choice but to expel that population.

Source. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 18:45, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Ian Black

Why is this journalist's views expressed in a book review notable? (I was mistaken when I stated in my edit that the source does not support the claim.)Ankh.Morpork 00:02, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

See the very lengthy talk page discussion about this. RolandR (talk) 00:07, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Someone felt at one point that attribution would be needed for that... --Dailycare (talk) 15:51, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

What is his notability and what has this to do with the New Historians?18:14, 3 June 2012 (UTC)Ankh.Morpork

The article is used to source the notion that the expulsions are often nowadays referred to as ethnic cleansing. In my opinion the newspaper, being one of note, is reliable for that notion also without attribution. Notability, by the way, relates to whether a topic gets its own article so that concept seems not to be relevant here (see WP:NOTABILITY). The ethnic cleansing terminology has become more common with the new historians coming on the stage. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 17:47, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

I was not referring to a Wiki policy but to the common usage of this word: Worthy of attention or notice. The relevant policy would be WP:DUE. PLease substantiate this statement - "The ethnic cleansing terminology has become more common with the new historians coming on the stage" as well as explaining why this somehow means that Ian Black has become an honorary Israeli New Historian. Ankh.Morpork 18:02, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Pappé is a new historian, his book "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" has received lots of attention, therefore the ethnic cleansing terminology has become more common with the new historians. I'm open to having a new subsection in addition to "Initial views" and "new historians", which could be "Current views" that could contain the information from Black's piece. Black, as the Guardian's Mid-East editor, is reliable for the statement that the Nakhba is widely described as ethnic cleansing. I don't quite follow your reasoning that it would be WP:UNDUE to mention a view that is, per our source, widely held. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 19:51, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

1. Since you attribute the association of ethnic cleansing terminology with the new historians to Papppe's usage, this link should be made clear to avoid unintentional expansion of scope to the subscribers to this school of thoughts.
2. Since Ian Black is describing how other people describe the exodus, the encyclopedic method would be to directly convey what those other people say.
3. Your last point is illogical, that it is not WP:UNDUE to mention a view that is, per the source in question, widely held. You cannot use the source itself to justify its own inclusion. Please. Ankh.Morpork 10:56, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Aknh, frankly, I referred to the name of Pappé's book as an answer to your specific question. As we know, also e.g. Morris (another new historian) has said that there was ethnic cleansing. Concerning your last point, I think you need to check your notes. WP:DUE says that important viewpoints should be described, and since we're describing this viewpoint, I think we agree that it's relevant, important, and sufficiently widely held to warrant inclusion. That it's widely held is a relevant aspect of this viewpoint, especially so since this is a contentious situation. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 19:55, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Exodus?

The naming and association "Exodus" is not correct, and not good enough for a serious encyclopedia. -DePiep (talk) 01:13, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Do you have suggestions for another name, something that might have a chance of baing agreed on? One option vould be, paraphrasing Morris, "Birth of the Palestinian refugee problem" or something similar. Obviously, "Genesis of the Palestinian refugee problem" would suffer the same association problem as the current name ;) "Origins" could be more original and contain no Biblical references. --Dailycare (talk) 08:41, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

lead

Per the discussion here the lead should be re-written to reflect the sources presented. That is, that Nakba means the same thing as "Milchemet Haatsmaut" (War of Independence), and refers to the war rather than the exodus. Nishidani was arguing there that the terms are synonymous and I expect him to be consistent and change the lead here accordingly. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 15:13, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

NMMNG -- The suggested opening paragraph for the 1948 Arab-Israeli War addresses the breech of NPOV policy. There is no NPOV issue identified here. You want Hebrew names for the 1948 Palestinian exodus? Because that is the name of this article!! talknic (talk) 16:09, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

It's either that or redirecting Nakba to 1948 Palestine War and de-bolding it in the lead here. But if this article describes the Nakba, then the sources Nishidani presented in the discussion I linked to above suggest it's synonymous with War of Independence. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:24, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

NMMNG -- Go ahead, get the consensus you demand of others. For now the issue is in Talk and according to what you demand of others, it cannot be changed until you get consensus. BTW.. Do not consider my silence to be approval talknic (talk) 16:39, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Nakba.Article name

Nakba, as my recent addition of sources shows, has a wider extension than the exodus. It refers to all events affecting Palestinians over the period of November 1947 to Jan (and beyond but most (not Laurens) sources ignore that 1949.

• Nakba has a general meaning referring to the overall war.
• Nakba has a specific meaning referring to the exodus element.

The only way out of this mess is to change the article's title to Nakba, define it in both senses as referring to the 1947-9 war, civil and between states, and then specify the exodus. The general precedes the particular in logic, and semantics. All links elsewhere to the Exodus can link to Nakba, but with the specification in the link 1948 Palestinian exodus.Nishidani (talk) 20:30, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

this is a hood suggestion, and i agree.Dalai lama ding dong (talk) 21:14, 7 July 2012 (UTC)