Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Professional wrestling

WikiProject Professional Wrestling
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WWE NXT, NXT Wrestling and History of WWE NXT

I'm at a loss here. In my opinion, "NXT Wrestling" is not the same territory as FCW. The article states that it's the same, but the venue changed, the titles were dumped, all storylines were halted, and the show debuted introducing the characters as if they appeared for the first time. To me, it's a completely different show. Furthermore, it seems like it's a completely different show than what "NXT, the reality competition" used to be as well.

I'm thinking we should restructure these articles into:

1. Florida Championship Wrestling, focusing on WWE's old developmental territory that was ran by Steve Keirn from 2007-2012.
2. WWE NXT, the television show that ran from 2010-2012.
3. NXT Wrestling, WWE's new developmental territory at Full Sail University which broadcasts under the name "WWE NXT" in select markets and on Hulu Plus. Although it shares the other TV show's name, we would keep most of its information under this article to avoid confusion.

Now this process would be a little tricky, so what we'll have to do is:

• The article that is currently named "NXT Wrestling" should be moved to "Florida Championship Wrestling" and be stripped of all information regarding the new territory.

• The article that is currently named "WWE NXT" should be moved to "NXT Wrestling" and be filled with the information that was removed from article 1.
• The article that is currently named "History of WWE NXT" should be moved to "WWE NXT" and be stripped of the information regarding the newer version of the television show. We can instead have a small section that links to the above article.

After doing these changes, I think these articles would begin to make more sense while also removing the small bits of content forking that are affecting this topic. What do you guys think? Feedback ^☎ 19:09, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

It sounds good. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 19:24, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. InedibleHulk (talk) 16:03, June 26, 2013 (UTC)

I like it too. Looking back at the article histories, it seems the "History" article was so named as an attempt to present the developmental territory's current webcasts as a continuation of the reality-type series. It really isn't. oknazevad (talk) 16:46, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Update

1. I reestablished the Florida Championship Wrestling article officially recognizing that the promotion was disbanded in 2012. The article encompasses the promotion's history throughout it's 5 years and it also includes a list of alumni that are currently featured in WWE programming.
2. The WWE NXT article has been reworked. It focuses now on the NXT Wrestling "promotion" that WWE is running down in Florida. I've requested the article be renamed "NXT Wrestling" at WP:RM citing the consensus reached here. Hopefully, they'll get around to it soon.
3. I have yet to rework the History of WWE NXT article. I've requested it be moved to WWE NXT once the above move is finalized. After that, I'll start working on moving most of the broadcast and episode information into the article.
4. It seems obvious that this new version of "WWE NXT" has no link to the previous version. Therefore, I'm treating them as two distinct homonymous television shows (similar to Knight Rider (1982 TV series) and Knight Rider (2008 TV series)). The first incarnation will be located at "WWE NXT" while the second incarnation will be located at "NXT Wrestling".
5. I know it's a small distinction, but it seems rather misleading for us to continue classifying WWE's developmental program as a "promotion". They are obviously no longer using promotions to farm their talent. They instead are creating their own training facility and using Full Sail University as a venue to air their WWE-branded television show. If we can reach a consensus on this, we can start editing the article to reflect exactly what NXT Wrestling is.

That's all for now. Please voice any concerns, oppositions or ideas below. Thanks, Feedback ^☎ 21:12, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

I'd call it a promotion. They put on shows, advertise, people buy tickets and watch. Sort of like how colleges have radio stations, kitchens and IT departments. They're still legit, even if they're for training. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:35, June 26, 2013 (UTC)

But if you use that criteria, Smackdown and Raw would each be promotions as well. I think all three brands are on the same boat. Of course, the difference is that NXT has a specific roster, but during the brand extension days, we didn't call each brand a "promotion". WWE is the promotion, the three of them are just different shows. At least, that's how I view it. Feedback ^☎ 02:13, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

I viewed Raw and SmackDown as two promotions while they were split. Different rosters, different tours, different management, different image, different TV deals. Same company behind them, of course. WWE is the promoter, not the promotion. Sort of like how Kraft Dinner and Kraft peanut butter are different food products. Not a huge deal to me, though. InedibleHulk (talk) 17:47, June 27, 2013 (UTC)

The problem with treating NXT as just another WWE show is it ignores that there is far more to the promotion (which is what Triple H, who oversees it as Exec VP of talent, has called it in interviews) than just the once-monthly TV tapings at Full Sail. They run house shows throughout Central Florida almost every weekend, in much the same fashion as FCW did. Unlike Raw and Smackdown during the brand split, which were only autonomous on TV screens, NXT has a much greater autonomy in its day-to-day operations. It is true that it is less autonomous than FCW (and DSW or OVW before that); indeed part of the change from FCW to NXT was in part to get better oversight over the developmental program. But there's more to NXT as a promotion than just the TV tapings.oknazevad (talk) 05:40, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Whoa, much has happened on this topic since the last time I came to this page. It's kinda hard for me to digest, but here are my thoughts: I strongly support the merging of "WWE NXT" and "History of WWE NXT" into a single article which talks about the five seasons of NXT.

Also, I'd like to point out that the "NXT Wrestling" website has ceased to exist and now points to the "http://www.wwe.com/shows/wwenxt" page. While previously "NXT Wrestling" was obviously separate, now the distinction is much more blurred. Even "NXT Live" events are shown on the WWE page at "http://www.wwe.com/events/all/wwenxt". It appears that the "WWE NXT" television show is more important than "NXT Wrestling" right now. Starship.paint (talk) 11:04, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Well this whole NXT-business is confusing. After further researching, it seems that you're right the name "NXT Wrestling" has been phased out. Right now it seems that WWE NXT is the name of (1) the developmental system, (2) the show that features the developmental system and (3) the old reality-competition show. Right now, (1) and (2) are the topics of NXT Wrestling while, (3) is the main topic of WWE NXT. However, now I'm thinking we should just rename them WWE NXT and WWE NXT (2010 TV series). What other solution is there? Feedback ^☎ 23:50, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Problem is that we don't know if NXT is in "transition" or has completed the change. Should we wait for a week or a month? We'd be losing valuable momentum, though. Starship.paint (talk) 13:32, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

I am fine with waiting for consensus, but deciding to wait for WWE to clear up the situation would be a disservice to all the readers who want to know about NXT. I don't want them to be reading false information. Another possible solution would be dividing the topic into four articles: (1) FCW, (2) NXT TV Show V.1, (3) NXT TV Show V.2, and (4) the NXT developmental system. The last one can stay in construction for about a month, but we should keep the others up to date. What do you think? Feedback ^☎ 05:07, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

I think there only needs to be three articles. 1) FCW 2) WWE NXT (Season 1-5) 3) <one article for the developmental territory> Starship.paint (talk) 01:40, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

HHH? Hulk? oknazevad? Any updated comments given that as it seems, NXT Wrestling is no more and it appears to be only WWE NXT now? Would you support the three article proposal in my above post, with only one article for the developmental territory combining NXT TV Show V2 and the NXT developmental system? Starship.paint (talk) 22:17, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

I think I'm going to get more administrators involved because everyone did a controversial move without any sort of vote. We voted several times to keep the articles the way they are and suddenly you guys again changed them all, this time without some sort of a vote. We need this to be done properly because this is way too controversial to just move without vote.

Also why the heck do we have 2 "WWE NXT"s? It's the same show with its program direction changed half-way through. That's completely inaccurate for an encyclopedia and I have no idea where you guys get that from. I require sources on the fact they're 2 completely separate shows.

My point is this: The accuracy of these articles are now being challenged due to controversial moves done against Wikipedia's system by selected individuals here. Either change it back or vote. The guidelines are there for a reason. Honestly, this frustrates me that we FINALLY have a good system that we voted on and someone just comes in and ruins it all. srsrox ^{BlahBlahBlah...} 20:25, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

"Selected individuals"... from the Pro Wrestling WikiProject? The move was proposed by FeedBack, and supported by HHH Pedrigree, InedibleHulk and oknazevad. That's four yes "votes" with zero opposition, and if I saw FeedBack's proposal in time, I would have supported it too, making it potentially five votes from June 25 to July 11, two weeks for six people to voice their opposition to overturn the "vote". Keep in note Srsrox, that the last time there was a vote, WWEJobber and Nomelck, who supported you, were actually later proven to be the same person using two accounts and both accounts have been banned. Starship.paint (talk) 01:44, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

This is a mess seriously. We have two "WWE NXT" shows on Wikipedia. This is inaccurate! WWE NXT is the same show with a different direction. Where are your sources for suggesting it's two different shows entirely? No doubt, I will challenge this. srsrox ^{BlahBlahBlah...} 20:11, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

I just caught wind of this conversation. On Wikipedia, we do not decide consensus by votes. "Votes" don't matter, only arguments do. I made an argument above about how the system wasn't working. I suggested a solution on how to organize the articles and it was accepted without opposition by various members. Ever since I edited the archive code, old discussions are kept on WT:PW for 14 days after the last comment which was plenty of time for someone to oppose it. You are always welcome to suggest improvements and to challenge current consensus, but to belittle our consensus because we didn't "vote" is quite frankly inappropriate. Feedback ^☎ 20:54, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Srsrox what do you mean "we have two "WWE NXT" shows on Wikipedia"? Right now we have two articles, 1) WWE NXT - this article focuses on the five seasons / 2) NXT Wrestling - this on the developmental territory Starship.paint (talk) 09:12, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

We have WWE NXT and NXT Wrestling#WWE NXT. That is very confusing because of the how the WWE NXT's page is arranged. It's almost like the page is organized like the show lasted until 2012, but then there are random mentions of it going on as part of NXT Wrestling today. Another words, its organization is horrible. I actually like the look of the section on NXT Wrestling's page, but it has the feel that that section has all the info on it (especially when it has the logo/Infobox there and not on the main page). Common organization practices don't have a section that includes an Infobox unless it contains all info of the section. That's just confusing. Having both a large section on NXT Wrestling and a HUGE page on WWE NXT is just confusing. "History of WWE NXT" just made a lot more sense.

My suggestion is to keep the WWE NXT section on NXT Wrestling's page and rename WWE NXT page to History of WWE NXT.

One more thing Feedback ^☎, while it isn't technically wrong to move pages without discussing, it certainly is courteous, ESPECIALLY when there has been discussions about them already and are controversial. That's respecting other people's times and efforts. It would be much more courteous to request/discuss about the move first. I for one felt my opinion did not matter nor does it matter now. srsrox ^{BlahBlahBlah...} 18:44, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

We discussed it. You're literally posting in the section where this discussion took place. Our consensus was unopposed for 2-3 weeks. It's been a month since the consensus was achieved and the moves were made. Your lack of participation in this consensus doesn't make it less valuable. Feedback ^☎ 21:39, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

The proper way (as opposed to legal) would have been to discuss this topic in the article's talk pages OR at least note SOMETHING on the talk pages that the pages were in discussion of being moved. I've been on Wikipedia for the whole last month and had no way of knowing this was happening. A note on the talk pages would have made sense to let other editors know that the page was being discussed. This could have been handled better, I guess is my point. But I digress.

No way to know this was happening? I do agree the changes were implemented pretty hastily after gaining a consensus, but if you were watching the talk pages, you would have figured that out on your own. If you didn't bother to read the articles to find out about the changes, why would posting on the talk page make any difference? You're just making things up to stir up trouble. Feedback ^☎ 00:04, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Going back to the topic, please note what I said about the two WWE NXT sections. Tell me what you think. srsrox ^{BlahBlahBlah...} 16:11, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

"History of WWE NXT" is misrepresentative. The article does not reflect the history of the brand like History of WWE. It's pretty much a season-by-season account of what occurred on the show. The standard would be for that information to be included in the TV series' main article or split up in "season" articles. I am not against renaming these articles "WWE NXT (2012 TV series)" and "WWE NXT (2010 TV series)". Or perhaps, WWE NXT and WWE NXT (2010-2012). But then again, I brought up the idea above, and others didn't seem to agree. I'm fine with the current consensus, but you can go ahead and try and change others' minds. Feedback ^☎ 00:04, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Personally, I want as few articles as possible -> one article for season 1-5, one article for developmental. If you want to rename the current WWE NXT article, I would prefer WWE NXT (2010-2012) over History of WWE NXT. Anyway as time passes on, it seems like NXT Wrestling has definitely been "consumed" by WWE. Anyone's thoughts? Starship.paint (talk) 01:27, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Feedback ^☎, I don't know where you're getting your sources from, but there isn't two "WWE NXT"s. It is only one show that had a change in direction. If we make it into two different shows, we are not being accurate at all. It a very simple solution to just merge the section with the article if we must have one article and have a small blurb on NXT Wrestling's page.

Second point, honestly, I hate the sheer length of WWE NXT's page (I don't think its notability equals to the long length of the article), but for some reason, people want it to be a rather large article. I think that the article needs to be summarized a lot better than it currently is. It's like it's WWE's/Wrestling's Wikia page length or something. Way too much detail... srsrox ^{BlahBlahBlah...} 19:24, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree with you. The article is too long. I find the elimination tables rather silly, but it seems to be the standard for all reality competition series on Wikipedia. As for every version of WWE NXT all being one show, that's just wrong. WWE's newest developmental territory is called "WWE NXT" and is homonymous to their old reality-competition series, but they share no link. I think the main issue right now should be that NXT Wrestling is not named correctly. We need to form a consensus on how to rename both articles. Feedback ^☎ 19:42, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

There's nothing "just wrong" about WWE NXT being the same show, because it was, even if you don't agree to it. It was a show the changed its direction, but never was considered by WWE a different show. Even WWE uploaded past "WWE NXT" episodes as part of the list of current WWE NXT shows, so it's clear it's considered the same show. Almost all websites will list WWE NXT starting in 2010 by way of simple Google search.

You DO Have a great point in the name "NXT Wrestling". After looking it up, it seems clear that "WWE NXT" is the promotion's name, Not "NXT Wrestling". I agree on that 100%.

So on that note, I also push to rename "NXT Wrestling" -> "WWE NXT (promotion)" and "WWE NXT" -> "WWE NXT (show)" or something along the lines of that. And yes, we NEED to shorten the length of the show's article. Just too much. We CAN make the table automatically collapse. I'll look into that if you guys are fine with that. srsrox ^{BlahBlahBlah...} 13:15, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

All of this is rather confusing, but there is no way I could say that the "WWE NXT developmental territory" has anything to do with the "WWE NXT reality-competition series". They are nothing alike. The only reason they share the "NXT" name is because WWE needed to take into consideration their international contracts for "WWE NXT". They would have made it much easier for us if the developmental territory and the television show had different names. But they decided to confuse us further by strapping the NXT name on everything.

How about we rename NXT Wrestling to WWE NXT, and the current WWE NXT article to WWE NXT (TV series). We can have a hatnote at WWE NXT that directs the reader to the TV series. Feedback ^☎ 18:17, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

NXT Wrestling to WWE NXT seems fine. But, the current WWE NXT article to WWE NXT (TV series), I strongly disagree. (2010-2012) is fine, or (Season 1-5), but I think that (TV series) is not clear enough. Starship.paint (talk) 01:26, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Srsrox feels that the "WWE NXT" that WWE currently broadcasts is the same show as the old one. I disagree, but if that reflects popular opinion, then we should move all broadcast information of the show into WWE NXT (TV series). There would then be no confusion. In his support, TV.com treats it as the same TV show. Then again, I think the people at TV.com must be just as confused as we are. Feedback ^☎ 03:21, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

My problem is with the wording "TV series". I don't see how the current NXT is not a TV series, given that it is, after all, broadcasted internationally, just not in the US? [1] As I said, let's go with (2010-2012) or (Season 1-5). Starship.paint (talk) 09:15, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Let me be clear: When you say "same show as the old one", that is close to what I mean. I mean that it is the same uninterrupted TV series, yet a completely different direction half-way thru. To suggest it ended in 2012 would not be accurate. It's like I said, WWE has treated it as continual, so we should too. "(Season 1-5)", however, indicates a continual tv series, so I'd agree to that. But again, I think we need to prove that the promotion's name is "NXT Wrestling".

When it comes down to it guys, it is not important what are opinion is more than what the facts are. I love the name "NXT Wrestling", but is that was it's called? I don't mind treating it as two separate shows, but were they EVER listed as different shows? We can have opinions all day, but we need to back things up with proof and facts. srsrox ^{BlahBlahBlah...} 13:51, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Just commenting, the show didn't end in 2012, but the seasonal aspect did. NXT Wrestling did exist until June 2013 when the website was shut down. It was the re-branded FCW from August 2012. But now, it looks like NXT Wrestling has merged into WWE, therefore there is no more official name, just the supposedly "WWE NXT" branch. Starship.paint (talk) 23:25, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

We don't have to treat them like two different shows. We can have one article for the developmental promotion at WWE NXT and another one for the show at WWE NXT (TV series). We can make the distinction of the two versions of the show on the latter article. I think this is the best "happy medium" we will be able to achieve. Feedback ^☎ 04:27, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Repeated error needs fixing

Hey, just was looking through various title history pages, and I noticed an error repeated across a great many of them that really is ticking me off. Many pages refer to former NWA members (including WCW and ECW) as "subsidiaries" of the NWA, which is called a promotion. That is just so blatantly wrong as a use of the term I want to kick whoever wrote all those articles (and they all show similar writing style, so they were at least started by the same person).

Simply put, the NWA does not, nor ever has it, owned any of its member promotions (subsidiaries are properly companies owned by a parent company), nor is it a promotion itself. This is just factually incorrect and misinforming our readers badly. (The correct structure, for those that don't know, is that the NWA is an organization with mutiple member promotions, each independently owned and operated.)

I have fixed some articles, but would appreciate some help in getting to more of them. oknazevad (talk) 07:41, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, that's not right. The NWA is like the United Nations. I fixed a few more. Think that's all of them, judging by a search for "NWA" and "subsidiary". InedibleHulk (talk) 23:14, June 29, 2013 (UTC)

Found a couple more (including WWE!) by searching for the plural, but I think we got it. Thanks, blatant errors like that annoy me. oknazevad (talk) 21:17, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, me too. This "Let's list every move we can find in a match review as a Signature Move" bullshit, especially. Yes, Scott Steiner sure was known for his knife-edge chops, kneelifts and multiple forearm clubs. Almost as memorable as Cody Rhodes' kneelift or Russian legsweep. There must be a hundred wrestlers here with "signature" kneelifts, legdrops, bodyslams and abdominal stretches.

I fix a few, they just pop right back, with more linkspam. Probably the biggest ongoing problem we have, in my eyes. InedibleHulk (talk) 19:27, July 1, 2013 (UTC)

From my obviously extremely expert viewpoint, Rhodes doesn't do a knee lift. William Regal's Knee Trembler is a knee lift. Rhodes does a knee strike to a seated opponent à la John Morrison. But it's really a signature move haha Starship.paint (talk) 01:22, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

And in my equally (if not more equally) expert opinion, the kneelift stopped being special with Jake Roberts. Of course, opinions don't matter. Jake's is verifiably called a Trademark Move, while Rhodes' is not. His Russian legsweep is apparently cool, though. I can't remember how Cody's kneelift looks, if it even is one. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:12, July 2, 2013 (UTC)

Rhodes' knee strike (not the knee drop, he does that often too) is very similar to JoMo's. Starship.paint (talk) 12:03, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, then that's no kneelift. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:13, July 10, 2013 (UTC)

One thing which caught my attention on Dory and Terry Funk's articles is the statement that they moved from the Amarillo territory to the National Wrestling Alliance. Last I recall, Amarillo was a key part of the NWA. This appears to be reflected on List of National Wrestling Alliance territories. Then I rewatched their WWE HoF video, and noticed that the narrator says that they moved from Amarillo to the NWA. Really, we're reinventing what was and wasn't the NWA with help from the WWE's version of events, but that's nothing new. RadioKAOS  – Talk to me, Billy 01:03, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Fixed. WWE can live in its Universe all it wants. There's plenty of evidence to the contrary of many of their stories. For now, anyway... InedibleHulk (talk) 06:26, July 8, 2013 (UTC)

If this Dory Funk Jr. story is true, his father was already fairly tight with Muchnick in 1968. Kind of funny, regardless. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:37, July 8, 2013 (UTC)

Also I'd like to point out that, OWOW seems to be using Wikipedia as a source, which is scary since we list them as marginally reliable and sometimes use them for finishers / signature moves. See their article on Mercedes KV, which lists a single move of hers (roundhouse kick) as a signature (although from what I've seen on YouTube it's a finisher). Since then she's signed for WWE under Sasha Banks in NXT, and compare OWOW's page to Wikipedia's. They've even listed the finishers unalphabetically, and the five signature moves in order. Also I can't find sources online saying Banks has a wheelbarrow bulldog, while I've never seen "to a kneeling opponent" on OWOW, only on Wikipedia. We can't cite something which is citing us. Starship.paint (talk) 12:03, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

In general I think we should avoid using lists of signature moves as references, particularly when they come from fansites like OWOW. Ideally, we should be quoting recaps from journalistic recaps (e.g. from Canoe.ca) and citing specific quotes, e.g. "Wrestler X hits his signature DDT" or "Wrestler Y attempts her customary dropkick". McPhail (talk) 19:27, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

I noticed the same thing when I was checking up on the Kazuchika Okada article a while back. The OWOW article is 100% copied from Wikipedia, the signature move "Dropkick" even has a "[2]" after it as a dead giveaway.Ribbon Salminen (talk) 20:35, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

In that case, we can't use OWOW as source, because they use Wikipedia. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 23:18, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

If that is the case then, there is alot of cleanup to do in that area in many articles. The signature moves section in general is a gray area that is up to opinion. We need a way (backed up by sources) to disguise what moves should and should not be in the sections. Also just because Cole says "Vintage" after it, does not indicate its inclusion haha. STATic message me! 00:01, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Their Okada (and other) article's style is different than most on the site (much more text instead of pure results), so we can't assume every profile should be treated as a Wiki mirror. That said, I've always been a bit cautious with OWW. An incredible number of typos, which aren't so bad with words (we know what "wreslted" means), but can really suck for dates (April 24 or 14? 1978 or 1987?)

They also seem to use info from anyone who e-mails them. In the last couple years, it seems to have taken a page from Wikipedia (figuratively and literally) by opening up the editing to anyone who signs up. Back in the day, there was a Darren and a Kristy. Now there are all kinds. And the pages are regularly tinkered with, so the version somebody cited here years ago possibly doesn't contain the claim anymore.

As Static says, it'd be a huge job to replace them all. Better to simply doublecheck facts, and if something isn't reliably corroborated elsewhere, then we deal with it. If it seems legit, it can stay. But we should definitely move keep OWW to in the "not yet proven" pile in the MoS. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:09, July 10, 2013 (UTC)

See "OWW is, and always has been, a website for the fans, and by the fans." Also, the required reading for any contributor. The first rule was clearly broken in the profiles listed here, so it's not anything like a foolproof system. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:19, July 10, 2013 (UTC)

As per McPhail above, we should really establish a guideline for what is considered a signature move. While McPhail's suggestion is definitely positive, I still think it is too narrow. Not every pro wrestling reporter will list a move as "signature" or "customary". What I suggest is that if there are sources listing a wrestler doing a specific move on "X" number of occasions, then it can be considered a signature move. Originally I was thinking about X=3, but if we want to be strict we can put X=5? Starship.paint (talk) 02:47, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

actually I'd go with 4. Four sources for a move that a wrestler did should be common enough to list it as a signature. Starship.paint (talk) 03:19, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

I could find five chinlocks, bodyslams, shoulderblocks, clotheslines and chops for anyone. How do we draw the line between a signature and a basic move, just going by numbers? All of those moves actually are some wrestlers' signature/finishing moves, but definitely not everybody's. InedibleHulk (talk) 10:13, July 13, 2013 (UTC)

Just the fact that they used the move in 4-5 different matches does not really make it a signature move, and it would take alot of reference digging to find all that. We could just go off the Signature moves in WWE video games, but that might not be the most verifiable way to go. STATic message me! 16:36, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Hulk, that's true, I was about to get to the "basic move" stuff after we decided for the X=4 stuff for all the moves. There is no official line to draw for basic vs signature moves. I would guess we would have to decide, right here. Better have four references backing up a signature move, rather than now (supposedly) we could just list someone having done a move once and some would consider it a signature move. Other than the basic moves, if you see a guy doing a corner dropkick or diving headbutt four or more times (like Daniel Bryan) it's going to be a signature move, wouldn't it? Who else is doing the Northern Lights suplex four or more times than Alicia Fox? Or the rolling fireman's carry slam for Sheamus? I just view the basic moves as a secondary problem (and maybe a necessary evil if it can't be solved) For the non-basic moves, if a wrestler does it four or more times, it's going to be a signature move. Unless you have a separate proposal Hulk?Because it's not easy to find sources explicitly saying a move is a signature move. Starship.paint (talk) 01:23, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Static, about the WWE video games, finding a reliable source is one thing. How about newer wrestlers in TNA, or in NXT? Starship.paint (talk) 01:32, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

It really isn't that hard to source trademark moves. WrestlingData, Cagematch and OWW all do (WrestlingData lists all the ones you did). Probably others. If the veracity of any move is questionable, then we should see if the "four sources" method backs it up. If it doesn't stand fact-checking, we remove it. Or, if there's a move not covered by those that seems like it should be, we might consider four sources.

The problems with starting the four sources way are WP:SYNTHESIS and too many refs. If you hsve blazing Internet speed, that's not a problem, but for slower connections, all that extra size slows down loading/saving. Wikipedia should be for everyone, not just those on or near the cutting edge. Part of that problem also comes from citing match announcements and match results, but that's a whole other peeve.

More synthesis problems arise when you consider a move like the legdrop or elbowsmash. These are basic enough that many wrestlers use them frequently, but then we have guys like Hulk Hogan and Mitsuharu Misawa who use them in a much more significant way. InedibleHulk (talk) 16:20, July 20, 2013 (UTC)

You do have a point with the WD/CM/OWW listing signature moves. I get that their lists should be of a higher priority than a wrestler using a move four times. My "problem" with them is that two of them are considered marginally reliable sources and none of them fall under the proven reliable first category of sources in the style guide. In fact cagematch.net seems to be off the style guide altogether, not sure why, I do remember some conflict about using them as a reliable source because they might have gotten some obscure indy results wrong. Yet as above, we should not trust OWW when they're citing us, and a limitation is that while WD/CM do list some signature moves, they usually list fewer and do miss some out. Starship.paint (talk) 00:16, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

The reliability isn't too big an issue. Let's say OWW is cited for something that strikes you as odd, like Ivan Koloff's "vintage" jumping spinning piledriver. You check the four sources way and see that's actually Zangief they're talking about. Blammo! Deleted. Or you actually confirm that Koloff was sprier in his younger days.

Meanwhile, the proper five or ten are wrapped up with one or two tidy soures, instead of 20 or 40 with long-ass Caldwell titles and all the extra "cite URL" parameters. I just trimmed almost 9,000 bytes from Scott Steiner, and maybe 500 was actual (poorly sourced) info. That's a lot of bytes for a small section.

Treat them as reliable until proven otherwise, I say. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:54, July 21, 2013 (UTC)

Fine, so anyone here at WP:PW is against adding CAGEMATCH.NET to the marginally reliable sources alongside WrestlingData and OWOW? Starship.paint (talk) 08:59, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Cool by me. InedibleHulk (talk) 17:18, July 22, 2013 (UTC)

All fine with me. On a similar topic, has anyone any idea whats going on with some of the links to older articles from wrestleview? I've tried looking over some old refs but the articles seem to have disappeared, do they expire after a certain amount of time? Duffs101 (talk) 17:41, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

It's not exclusive to WrestleView. Any site can (and often does) move/remove/replace content now and then. See WP:LINKROT for solutions. InedibleHulk (talk) 19:24, July 22, 2013 (UTC)

Cheers. Duffs101 (talk) 19:40, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Yeah sometime this year WrestleView restructured their website. If you want to update the links, search for the titles in google "site:wrestleview.com FCW Results – 10/24/11" TV/PPV reports probably still exist but daily news like "ROH Star joins WWE" are probably gone. Starship.paint (talk) 03:51, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Mantaur's name.

We have a bit of a problem with Mantaur and sources regarding his name (Halac/Hallick/Hallich).

Maybe chip in here? InedibleHulk (talk) 18:58, July 18, 2013 (UTC)

Actually, why isn't the article named Mantaur as the common name? See discussion there. Starship.paint (talk) 01:37, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

I've requested a move at Talk:Mike Halac. McPhail (talk) 19:20, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Aces&8

Hi. Aces & 8 article. In former members, some people added Mike as member. He was a wrestler that Austin Aries captured and later, the stable attacked him. I don't know I we should include him as former member, because, kayfabe : he was some kind of prospect and never was patched member and blahblahblah. But 2 sources, [2] [3] call him member, because he attacked TNA Wrestlers with a mask. Somebody has procected the article, but people removes his name from the article. What do you think? Sources call him member, so... he is a member, right?--HHH Pedrigree (talk) 17:15, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

I'd consider him a member. It's similar to the way the Nation of Domination were accompanied to the ring by lots of extras in their early appearances - if one of them had been given a name and a storyline, they'd be a member worth naming, even if they never wrestled. McPhail (talk) 19:27, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Money in the Bank cases.

User:Black60dragon has requested discussion about whether we should call the briefcase for the World Heavyweight Championship shot the SmackDown briefcase (and likewise for RAW/WWE Championship).

I say no, since there's no brand split anymore, and Orton can cash in on any show he wants. The only distinction is which title he can challenge for. All the sources seem clear on this and I'm personally doubtless, but deciding here beats edit warring. InedibleHulk (talk) 21:02, July 22, 2013 (UTC)

MITB Briefcase for a WWE Championship/WHC Contract. I don't see Smackdown or Raw. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 22:16, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Its the RAW and SmackDown cases. Those can be cashed in for a WWE or World title respectively. Not making them called that. They were called the Raw and SmackDown cases. If you want to be "technical" then its the RAW All-Star MITB and then the SmackDown MITB. They are even colored red and blue to represent their respective brands. BlackDragon 23:35, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

You are wrong and I do not know why you are pretending there is a brand split. The WHC is not the Smackdown world title and the WWE title is not the Raw world title, it is interchangeable. Only this year it was called the "All-Star" MITB and the other was the WHC MITB. A brand was not tied to either case so I do not know why you are making that up. STATic message me! 23:38, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

The brand split is over. There is only one roster, both titles are defended on both shows. The colors of the cases are historical artifacts. They should be identified by the titles, period. oknazevad (talk) 00:17, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I'm not sure where BlackDeagon has got this illusion that the bland split still exists from. Either way, he's been blocked for edit warring, so hopefully that's the end of the debate. — Richard BB 07:43, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

For 2013's MITB, WWE.com explictly says Damien Sandow won the World Heavyweight Championship Contract Money in the Bank Ladder Match. For 2012's MITB, WWE.com says John Cena won the Money in the Bank Ladder Match for a WWE Championship Contract For 2011's MITB, WWE.com says Alberto Del Rio won the Raw Money in the Bank Ladder Match. End of discussion? Starship.paint (talk) 04:04, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Add two more lines: Wrestlemania, RAW, SD, WWE Championship and WHC --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 06:08, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Is that necessary? Unless I'm much mistaken the Raw briefcase has only ever been for the WWE Championship, and the SD briefcase has only ever been for the WHC. Their heritage is linked: we don't need more lines, we just accept that the Raw case has been renamed the WWE Championship case. — Richard BB 07:42, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Technically, Raw briefcase is for the RAW world title and SD Brieface for the SD World championship. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 19:50, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

More lines is just splitting hairs for no real reason. Like Richard says, the whole idea behind each case didn't change when the name did. Same deal as treating the WWE Intercontinental Championship like the WWF one. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:04, July 24, 2013 (UTC)

X Division

Again, a war (WTF. Every single week we have one). http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_TNA_X_Division_Champions&curid=841498&diff=565649383&oldid=565639383 Simple. Suicide, character portrayed by Daniels and Kazarian, won the X Division title in 2009. Mike Tenay says that Kaz and Daniels are 5 and 4 times champion, so he includes the title as Suicide. But now, Manik, the same character under other name, won the title. The wrestler under the mask is TJ Perkins, so this is his first reign. Vjmldhs says that "Wikipedia doesn't go by how many times a "character" has won a title, we go by how many times the man behind the gimmick won it". However, I think that my idea is better, because (I think) it's the first time that one character won a title twice under different wrestlers. For example, Gregory Helms won the cruiserweight title as Shane Helms, Hurricane and Gregory Helms, but all of them are the same wrestler. This case is different, we can't say that Suicide is 1 time champions and Manik is 1 time champion if they are the same character and we have an article for the character. I think that the best idea is to explain that the character is 2 times champions and the wrestlers (Kaz, Daniels and Perkins) are 3, 4 and 1 times champions.--HHH Pedrigree (talk) 19:45, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Here's the bottom line. While Tenay may have slipped at some point, TNA as a company have never recognized Suicide/Manik's first title reign as belonging to anyone else, and indeed (as seen in the Manik's profile on their website here) have essentially credited the reign to Suicide/Manik/Perkins, whose name is explicitly linked to that reign. Yea, he wasn't actually in the suit at the time, but this is pretty definitive that TNA, who's title it is, considers Suicide/Manik a two time champion. oknazevad (talk) 21:34, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hu3uPHXIB8 1:40 yes, I think that Tenay uses Wikipedia as source for his job, but TNA delete the championship list --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 22:15, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm with Vj 100%. All that matters is who's behind the mask. Whether TNA admits it or not, we know for a fact that Suicide II/Manik/Perkins is in his first reign and that Suicide I was portrayed by two completely different guys. And since the character changed names between the reigns, there's really no big issue about what number to use for the reigns; four and three for Daniels and Kazarian and one for Perkins. There are also articles for other wrestling characters like Black Tiger and Tiger Mask, but we keep Tiger Mask IV's accomplishments separate from Tiger Mask I's, because he is in fact a different wrestler despite using the same character.Ribbon Salminen (talk) 21:59, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

I put under the Suicide and Manik names who protrayed the character and the regin. But is strange to say that Manik is 1 time champion if TNA says that he is 2 times champion. Also, Suicide and Manik are the same character. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 22:15, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Also agree with VJ. The "fake" Psicosis had his share of belts, but they don't count toward the "real" Psicosis' tally (they each have two Mexican National Trios titles under the gimmick, though the fake one had "Extreme" on his name for one). No harm listing Suicide/Manik as a two-time champ in the character's article, but not in the title history article. It's an in-universe vs real life distinction. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:18, July 24, 2013 (UTC)

Agreeing with VJ. What would be his first of the two reigns then? Austin Aries won the title underneath the Suicide costume, then Sabin won it, vacated and now Manik won it. That would make it his first reign, why would we count Aries winning it under the Suicide mask towards Manik's reigns? If we were to count him for that reign we would have to count him for all of them, which we definitely would not. We have to keep this real life rather than in-universe. STATic message me! 22:30, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Not the issue; "Suicide" won the X Division title back in 2009. At the time Kazarian, who had had a previous run in TNA without the gimmick, was the regular man in the suit, but because of a banged up knee, Christopher Daniels subbed in the suit for a few weeks, including the title match. At no point has TNA ever acknowledged that either man has ever worn the suit. That's the problem, as far as they're concerned, it's the second title reign for the Suicide/Manik character. People keep mentioning "out-of-universe" and "real life". I hate to say it, the title doesn't even exist out of universe. No one actually defeats anyone else in legitimate combat sport. It's all storyline. And we really ought to represent the storyline accurately. The parentheticals, almost like footnotes, are a good way to handle it. oknazevad (talk) 22:46, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

It's not about whether someone was actually defeated. "Real life" just means the wrestler who played the gimmick did so while that character was a champion. The WWF didn't acknowledge Rikishi was Fatu (or that The Headshrinkers were The Samoan Swat Team). In-universe, he won his first tag title with Scotty 2 Hotty, not Samu. But we list Fatu's story and tag title in Rikishi's article. We can't hold masked characters to a different standard than unmasked ones. Look at List of World Tag Team Champions (WWE). Irwin R. Schyster's first reign counts as his third because, despite the story, his real last name is Rotunda. US Express Rotunda wasn't from Washington, and didn't care whether we paid our taxes. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:14, July 25, 2013 (UTC) InedibleHulk (talk) 00:06, July 25, 2013 (UTC)

This is the opposite case. Isn't a wrestler under various gimmicks, its a gimmick portrayed by various wrestlers. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 00:19, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

It's the same reasoning that it's the character that matters, not the wrestler who played him. If Suicide is a two-time champ, then IRS would be a three-time champ, and Mike Rotunda (the amateur wrestling character) would be a two-time. We can't say the performer matters in some cases, and the character matters in others. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:30, July 25, 2013 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more with with Okazevad. Plain and simple, the Suicide/Manic character is in the middle of one reign and he has had one reign previously. It doesn't matter how many wrestlers portrayed him in the past or how many repackaging the character went, it is still the same character. In order to describe the storyline "in-universe" as accurately as possible the title histories must reflect this. Footnotes are a good idea to show who was portraying the character during that respective reign. Since they weren't actually champion during that reign, they were just portraying the character that was champion during that time, it is disingenuous to completely credit them as being the champion since TNA never even explicable credited them with those Suicide reigns.LM2000 (talk) 23:10, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

I am familiar with the history of the character, I am saying "Suicide/Manik" did not have a "first" title reign. Austin Aries won it under the Suicide costume, defended it and lost it to Chris Sabin, than Manik/Suicide II won it officially for the first time. We cannot credit Aries second reign as a Suicide reign too. I would also not support adding the first Suicide reigns to Kaz/Daniels, it should be separate from the character. STATic message me! 23:19, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't think that Aries reign is comparable to Kaz/Daniels because TNA admitted that Aries was not Suicide. No such thing happened during Kaz/Daniels' reign. So, I would agree with you that we shouldn't credit Suicide with Aries reign but I disagree on Kaz/Daniels.LM2000 (talk) 23:29, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

There is only one suicide/manik character, and its the same in 2009 and 2013. According to his article, he has won the x division title twice. The X division article says that manik won the title once, but the character is 2 times. My edition explains that the character is 2 times champion and Perkins, 1 time champion. Even in the real world, Suicide/Manik character won the title twice. About Aries, it's like Los Conquistadores or The Spider Lady, them won a title under a mask and later, revealed themselves. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 23:41, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

So do you think we should note Irwin R. Schyster's first title reign as Mike Rotunda's third (in parentheses) and IRS' first? InedibleHulk (talk) 00:18, July 25, 2013 (UTC)

We note it with "previously known as Mike Rotunda". --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 01:18, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

I mean in the title history article. Maybe you do, too, and are saying we should note it like that? InedibleHulk (talk) 01:29, July 25, 2013 (UTC)

I think the Suicide reigns should just say Suicide (not mention Kaz/Daniels) and the Manik reign(s) just mention Perkins. Lets ignore the fact that they ever said he was the Suicide character, because we all know he never won the title under the mask and who know if he even played the character or that is just how the decided to debut him. STATic message me! 00:54, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

The problem is that Mike Tenay says that Kaz is Five times champion and Daniels, four times champion. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 01:18, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

That'd clearly be OR; that Manik is a continuation of the Suicide character can't just be ignored. That's silly. oknazevad (talk) 01:01, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

This is a pretty complex one. In general, I'd support listing the title based upon the wrestler who held the title, not based on a character which transcends wrestlers (assuming we have a reliable source). Wikipedia should be fact based, and TNA's own title histories aren't definitive. As I see it, T.J. Perkins is a one-time champion, and Suicide/Manik is a character (distinct from a gimmick) used for two title reigns (one by Daniels and another by Perkins). To say (for example) that T.J. Perkins was a two-time champion would be blatantly incorrect. In terms of the title history, I think it's the wrestler who matters, not the character. However, we obviously need to acknowledge the fact that the character Suicide/Manik has had two title reigns. I'd suggest the following format:

#	Wrestler	Reign	Date	Days held	Location	Event	Notes	Ref.
38	Christopher Daniels / Frankie Kazarian (as "Suicide")	4 / 3 (1)[4]	March 15, 2009	102	Orlando, Florida	Destination X (2009)	This was an Ultimate X match also involving Chris Sabin, Consequences Creed and Jay Lethal. During the championship reign the character of Suicide was played by both Christopher Daniels and Frankie Kazarian. This was the first reign for the character Suicide/Manik.
60	T.J. Perkins (as "Manik")	1 (2)	July 18, 2013	3,987+	Louisville, Kentucky	Impact Wrestling	This was an Ultimate X match also involving Sonjay Dutt and Greg Marasciulo. This episode will air on tape delay on July 25, 2013. This was the second reign for the character Suicide/Manik.

What do people think? McPhail (talk) 19:59, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

I like it, though I'd probably put the Suicide/Manik name first, but that's a minor detail. oknazevad (talk) 21:34, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Agree with oknazevad, I'd put the Suicide/Manik name first, but in all other aspects McPhail's proposal gets my support. Starship.paint (talk) 03:18, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

And I agree with oknazevad and Starship.LM2000 (talk) 05:01, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Quite alright. I don't care which goes first, except that Daniels should stay before Kazarian. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:03, July 26, 2013 (UTC)

I think that is a good idea, but put first the name of Suicide Manik. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 16:51, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll tweak the article accordingly. McPhail (talk) 21:38, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Nice. Also, we put both reigns under the same character in List of combined reigns? --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 22:00, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

I did think about doing that but I wasn't sure about the template... McPhail (talk) 22:11, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Although it isn't my preferred solution, it is fair in acknowledging this is TJ Perkins' first reign, while also giving a hat tip to TNA's backstroy regarding Suicide. Vjmlhds talk) 16:36, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Another requested move

Lane Huffman to Stevie Ray. McPhail (talk) 20:22, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Maybe Matt Barela -> Anarquia? What do you think? --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 21:59, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

That's a tough one. OVW doesn't have the exposure TNA does, but he worked there much longer (under a couple of names). If he'd been some sort of star in TNA, it'd be easier, but he didn't really "make a splash". I'll go with No opinion. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:47, July 27, 2013 (UTC)

Fergal Devitt -> Prince Devitt? --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 12:39, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

That move makes sense to me. I've also proposed a new move: "Ray Fernandez" to "Hercules Hernandez". McPhail (talk) 16:27, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Ha! Fergal. Yeah, Prince Devitt makes sense. Hercules Hernandez, probably. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:25, July 29, 2013 (UTC)

Congratulations! We've influenced Stone Cold's career.

Sort of.

Listen to him put over Kevin Nash on his podcast here. Sound familiar?

Maybe we can use the narration in Nash's article, for blind people. Beats listening to a robot tell it.

In any case, cheers to whoever wrote it! InedibleHulk (talk) 11:47, July 28, 2013 (UTC)

God, Steve. Take a breath XD. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 12:31, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Maybe that's a clue that we have a run-on sentence.

But don't worry about Steve. I've listened to few of these interviews, and he almost never runs out of air or gets tongue-tied. I already sort of knew this from his wrestling promos, but when you hear him "go Broadway", it's hard to not be impressed. He's like Jim Cornette, if Cornette also had a 99.8% wet beer catching ability and a sudden finisher. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:23, July 29, 2013 (UTC)

Speaking of redirects and moves...

Yukon Eric was recently deleted as "routine housekeeping", or G6. Wouldn't that actually make for a good common name RM discussion for Eric Holmback? I'm busy repairing my finances in the real world right now, so no action from me yet. RadioKAOS  – Talk to me, Billy 21:00, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Makes perfect sense to me. Is this even something we should discuss first? The page is free and aside from his early, obscure days (1946-49), he was always Yukon Eric. I'll be bold and assume the move is uncontroversial. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:44, August 2, 2013 (UTC)

Somewhat poor article we have here, factually. I may help it. Thanks for bringing it up. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:55, August 2, 2013 (UTC)

There is still a bit of mild controversy at Talk:Larry Johnson (wrestler). If anyone has an opinion on that, it would help. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:46, August 2, 2013 (UTC)

I've requested another page move: "George Gray (wrestler)" to "One Man Gang". McPhail (talk) 21:13, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Also Ferrin Barr, Jr. to Jimmy Jack Funk. McPhail (talk) 16:27, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Although a bit different from the other moves and redirects discussed here, we have an incident over at Manik (wrestling) similar to the one we had at Curtis Axel awhile back. Suicide is obviously the character's common name but the second he debuted a new moniker the page got moved without discussion, this time by User:JMichael22. LM2000 (talk) 08:26, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Its been moved back so that is no longer an issue.--70.49.82.207 (talk) 19:09, 4 August 2013 (UTC)