Talk:Chechens

it is leaving out Krasnoyarsk Krai

this region has chechens but there exact number is not stated. i dont know that number but acording to wikipedia theres some there when i look at the demograpics of this russian suject. since there already stating the numbers in individual subjects of russia then all of russian subjects should be broken down. already only a few of them are left. as not being in the core region of the chechen diaspora —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.51.212.6 (talk) 21:00, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Khazars and Alans

"In the Middle Ages, the Chechens were dominated by the Khazars and then the Alans." The Chechens were not dominated by Alans or Khazars. The information is not referenced. Moreover, Chechens were called Alans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ingushetia (talk • contribs)

Referenced to Jaimoukha. "Chechens were called Alans". Erm, not very likely. The Alans are the ancestors of the Ossetians. --Folantin (talk) 12:58, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps they were sometimes called alans because they were part of ancient alania at the time. Grey Fox (talk) 08:29, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

In the medieval russian works, the ossetians are referenced as "Ossy" (Оссы/Ассы). Also such a small nation like Ossetians, even despite their extremely peaceful way of life (in caucasian terms) speaks against any possible domination by them of their much more warlike and numerous neighbours like Chechens or Adygha/Circassians (who numbered around couple of millions compared to tiny ~50,000 ossetians in 19th century)...05:11, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Chechens are thought to been direct descendants of Alans, but are the Chechens in close connection with Iranian peoples and the nation of Iran? The Iranian government has reached out to them in the Chechen wars of the 1990s and 2000s, and about 5,000 Chechens are thought to live in Iran. The Chechen language is not of Indo-European origin, however, they seem to share some cultural characteristics of the Iranian and Azeri (Turkic speaking) people they lived in proximity with for over thousands of years. + 71.102.7.77 (talk) 06:44, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Trolls of Wiki

"The term "Chechen" is ultimately believed to derive from the Iranian name for the Nokhchii and it first occurs in Arabic sources from the 8th century. " Nokhchii has nothing to do with Iran or Persia. Name Nokhchi from Chechen means: Nokh = Prophet Noah chu = descendants. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ingushetia (talk • contribs)

Read the sentence again. "Nokhchii" isn't believed to derive from Iranian, "Chechen" is. Also, follow the link to Iranian languages there - there are more of them than just Persian (e.g. Ossetian). --Folantin (talk) 13:06, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

From Ossetians us there was nothing borrowed, but there is borrowing Ossetians from the Chechens, with those ample. The ethnic "Chechen" dates back to the Sassanid rulers. Perhaps not even Iranian origin, and Chechen, ie Hurrian. In Chechnya, a region "Sesana" and the eponymous clan (Sesano, Sesankhoj, Sasana) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Heshamatak (talk • contribs) 10:05, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

If you go by the namesake of Noah or the Chechens are Noah's people, how about a possible ethnic connection with Czechs whom are called "Tschechen" by the Germans? There isn't a known piece of evidence or documentation about the Czechs of Slavic origin are cousins of the "Chechens", except the Avars or "Caucasian Avars" have invaded and occupied the present-day area of Austria, Hungary and the Czech Republic from the 7th century AD until the beginning of the 1000's AD. Have they originated in the North Caucasus along with other Slavic peoples (i.e. Chroabats=Croats, Serboi=Serbs or Sclavine=Slav) or they are partially of Chechen (Indo-Iranian) descent? + 71.102.7.77 (talk) 06:38, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Serboi, Sclavine, Chroabats, Czechs.. what is that? This isn't serious. Heshamatak (talk) 10:00, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Heshamatak, har hayn luurg ducu mettig yac. I payd bocu humnaš yazdeš Vaynnax ducurg ãran ma daqqar ah! Töur du hon! Ah suun Noxčiyn ya Ğalğiyn mettah jopp ca lah as ho Hiri troll vu boxur du masserg qu wiki theh. Ayh yazdiyn humni bux bacah jat je vez ho, ya har bu äll tešmi bux gayt!!! Nakh 05:57, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Nokhchi from Noah

The information seems to be dubious. It implies that Chechens have strong connection with Judaic tradition (from khazars?). I believe in the previous incarnation it was said "according to a popular legend ...", even this was rejected. Anyway, please provide references to reliable sources on the matter Alex Bakharev (talk) 12:59, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

It's a popular nationalist myth intended to prove that the Chechens are "the oldest people of the Caucasus". --Folantin (talk) 13:03, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Please stop being ignorant. That "myth" other than being derived from legends and folklore, is supported by both armenian and georgian chronicles. For example Khartlis Tsokhvreba (not sure about spelling), lists that Chechens are direct descendants from the Kavkasos or Kaukasiani (after whom the Caucausus is named). He was the son of Yaphet.

This abstract comes from the Lifes of the Kings of Kartli (Khartlis Tskhovreba):

Прежде всего упомянем, что у армян и картлийцев 1, ранов 2 и моваканов 3, эров 4 и леков 5, мегрелов 6 и кавкасианов 7 — у всех [этих народов] был единый отец по имени Таргамос. Сей Таргамос был сыном Таршиса, внуком Иафета — сына Ноева. Translation: Let us first of all mention that both armenian, kartli, rans, movakans, people of er, lek people, megrels, and kavkasianis - all of these nations had one father by the name Targamos. This Targamos was the son of Tarshis, nephew of Japhet, son of Noah.

So is that the myth? Here is what the commentary to 7 says: 7. Кавкасианы - один из собирательных в работе Л. Мровели этнонимов. Под ним автор подразумевает автохтонное население Северного Кавказа на территории от р. Терека до ”западных пределов” Главного Кавказского хребта. В источниках генеалогической таблицы Мровели ”кавкасианам” соответствуют сарматы, савроматы (в древнеармянском к ним добавлен этноним аланы). (Кекелидзе К. С. Указ. соч.). Грузинский термин можно признать эквивалентом последних весьма условно. В хронике Мровели под кавкасианами имеются в виду исключительно аборигены Северного Кавказа (см. комм. 57). Аланы (сарматы, савроматы) соответствуют этнониму овсы и противопоставлены местным аборигенам. Translation: Kavkasianis - one of the ethnonims in the works by L.Mroveli. Under the term the author meant the aborigen population of the Northern Caucasus, on the territory from the river Terek to the western frontiers of the Main Caucasian Mountains. In the sources of the genealogical tables of Mroveli, kavkasianis are associated with sarmats, savromats (in the ancient armenian works, the ethnonim alans is added). THe georgian term cannot really be akhnowledged equivalent to the latter. In the Mroveli chronicles under the kavkasiani only the aborigenal tribes of the Northern Caucasus are meant. Alans (sarmats, savrmats) correspond to the term Ovsy and is contrasted to the local aborigens. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Daud.fr (talk • contribs) 05:24, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

There's many reliable sources for it indeed. It applies to all the Vainakh nations. I'm trying to get my hands on "The Chechens" by Amjad Jaimoukha which is probably the best academic resource for this page, but it takes time (It's rather expensive).Grey Fox (talk) 07:14, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

The current version of the etymology is taken from Jaimoukha.--Folantin (talk) 09:02, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Oh yea, maybe Jaimoukha passed that, but many other books didn't. It's not a nationalist idea invented by Chechens though, but by ancient chronicles from georgia. And according to those, not only the chechens were related to noah, but all other caucasians too. Dudayev took it a step further with an amazing story that Noha landed on Kazbek and eventually on chechen soil. Grey Fox (talk) 18:07, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

OK, but in traditional Judaeo-Christian (and - I presume - Islamic) historiography, every people in the world is descended from Noah (because he and his family were the only humans to survive the Flood). As I've said elsewhere, this "Nokhchii is from Noah" myth/folk etymology has got a lot of traction recently, but if we do present it in the article we need to make clear it is a popular nationalist myth. --Folantin (talk) 18:18, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Update: apparently the major pusher of this idea is Khasan Baksayev, of the Research Centre of the Nokhchii Latt Islam movement, who claimed Chechen had been spoken by Adam and Noah [1] (hope link still works). --Folantin (talk) 18:22, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Honestly the idea goes back way longer, some say the word nokchii actually derives from it. If you follow Sons of Noah you'll come out at the vainakhs too. See here Caucas, according to the legend, Dzurdzuk was his son and he became the father of the vainakhs. According to here[2] thats what vainakhi used to be called too. It's also probably more fitting to call it a legend rather than a myth. Sure there's been crazy nationalists since the soviet collapse in chechnya, but their views shouldn't be taken as mainstream. These legens also persist in Georgian and Armenian history, not just chechens'. Grey Fox (talk) 18:37, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Jaimoukha speaks about it in detail on page 30 of his book, under Georgian and Armenian Chronicles. Grey Fox (talk) 20:40, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Jaimoukha says that according to the pseudo-history in the Georgian Chronicles the Nakhchamateans ("progenitors of the Nokhchii") were descended from Targamos, who came to the Caucasus from Assyria. He doesn't mention the "Nokhchii is from Noah" folk etymology. According to Valery Tishkov (Chechnya: Life in a War-Torn Society p.199): "Before the war, diverse opinions had been expressed on the origin of the term 'Nokhchi', the Chechens' name for themselves, but no one traced it to the Biblical patriarch Noah. After the war, Khasan Baksayev, of the 'research center of the Nokhchi Latt Islam movement', argued that 'the theory of domination by the Jewish dialects is now a fossilized dogma of linguistics' and that the Chechen language had been spoken by the patriarchs Adam and Noah. That name, or its variant 'Nukh' in Islam, forms the first part of Nokhchi, meaning "Noah's people." --Folantin (talk) 12:59, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I think we're discussing something different, my apologies for that. I didnt mean to say that according to the legend the word "Nokchi" means "descendents of Noah" or anything like that. I meant that according to the legend all ethnic caucasians, including the vainakhs, were close descendants of Noah. Targamos is mentioned in the bible. I don't know what Nokchii means, only that it derives from one of their oldest teips. That's something for linguistics.

Epic ancestry for the Chechens was already a story before the war. Just another quote from none other than Jokhar Dudayev:

On another occasion, on a visit to France, Dudayev amazed his hosts with a new version of the story of Noah’s Ark, in which the Ark landed in the mountains of Chechnya and Noah and his family were the direct ancestors of the Vainakhs. Mankind, therefore, owed its salvation from the Flood to the Chechens. "I can’t say how much he believed it himself, but he spoke with the conviction of a man who knows mysteries that are concealed from others," Abubakarov says (1998: 17). This is also from Tishkov's book. Grey Fox (talk) 03:07, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

"Oh, I think we're discussing something different." Yeah, this discussion thread started because I reverted a user who added the claim that the true etymology of "Nokhchii" was "descendants of Noah." On the other hand, the pseudo-history might be significant enough to deserve its own article (or slot into another article on the pseudo-history of the peoples of the Caucasus in general) on the model of, say, Hunor and Magor for the Hungarians. Cheers. --Folantin (talk) 09:14, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

If you can fully verify the Chechen people are of Judaic-Semitic origins (see also Semitic peoples), we would consider the entry as valid and important on the studies of Chechen people. But it doesn't explain the Chechens' ethnic/linguistic composition doesn't mirror that of the Assyrians and Chaldeans whom are West Semites related to the Arabs and Hebrews, and are native to northern Arabia (i.e. Syria, Iraq and Turkey). There's still a mystery on the Chechens' mythological claims of descending from Noah, whom had a son (one of three) named Japheth (Yapeth) in the Bible/Torah. From what the Noah article stated, Japheth's descendants are thought to moved north and northwest into the European subcontinent (when we talk about Eurasia) to become Indo-European speaking peoples or the "Caucasian" race. + 71.102.7.77 (talk) 06:48, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

It's so funny that someones trying to prove a myth with evidences. If you believe in Noahs Ark, than all the people including Chechens are grand children of Noah. Anyway Nokhchii is most probably from Nakh that means people. Etymology of this word is not well researched yet. Also there are some more Byblical myths in Chechen culture. For example Myth of Kezanoi Lake. Its believed there was a settlement which was so rich and sinful. God sent angel with a poor man wears. No ones helped him except one family. God flooded this settlement everyones drawned but that family, that helped the poor man. Did you remember Sodom and Gomorrah Nakh 09:48, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

A myth can be connected to real or imagined historic events, that the Chechens spoke about descending from a sea-faring people caught in a global flood. What about the Yakuts or "Sakha" are related to either the Soka (Saka) empire of ancient India or Bactria (an Iranian people once lived there, but expanded north and south all the way to Arabia and Siberia), and even the east Asian people of Sakhalin? The two peoples of modern-day Russia struggle to develop a full sense of national identity, with the self-exploration of tribal folklore and cultural myth, and what made them apart from their neighbors or the Russian authorities. Oddly, you can find some Chechens living in China, Japan, India and the Middle East (i.e. Dubai and Qatar), but a scant number who are compromised of guest workers with contracts to temporarily work in these countries and are expected to return. + 71.102.7.77 (talk) 05:35, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

"Nakh", u don't know anything about the Chechens, although the nickname you patriotic.

Nohchi consists of two words - "Noh" and the "Che", the words "Nakh" (people) and Noah are absolutely identical, and it is quite logical. The legend about the lake Kezana-Am also directly connected with Noah and our origins. Read the history of the Chechens in archives, not from Russian books.--Heshamatak (talk) 21:04, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

It is so sad to see another victim of Nationalism based falsificated history. Qizanna(ru.Kezanoi) Lake legend based on Biblical legend of Sodom and Gomorrah, its really so clear how cant you see paralels?! Legend of descendant from Noah is unprovable. Its just a legend... You need to spare you time for more useful issues. For example, Classical Nakh roofing, Nakh Mythology (as myth not as proven history), history of Nakh Tayp system, etc etc... Nakh 06:06, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

I know where the legend about Kezana-Am (you even on the Chechen wrong name of the lake have written:)) the part about the Bible that you are so laid hold of it? I have read almost all the literature about tipes(teyp), the Chechen legends etc., and I can say with certainty that the victim of propaganda is just you. It is strange to be Chechen, and have such false ideas about the history of his own people. These legends were the Chechens since the time of existence Hurrians. Heshamatak (talk) 13:28, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Hehe )) I really wrote it wrong. It had to be something like Khizanna, ok never mind. Heshamatak, if my memory not gets me wrong Hurrians didn't have any legend of city flooding. Even if they had we must consider that Hurrians loaned a huge amount of Akkadian and Canaanite legends and myths. For example legend of Anu (God of sky, compare chechen Ana:sky) was loaned from Akkad culture, also Enlil firstly was Akkad Ellil. So before claiming that Sodom and Gomorrah descendant from Khizanna we need strong evidences that really Hurrians had legend of the lake before Canaan and Akkad. Or In Akkad and Canaan they appear after they met Hurrians.

Anu from sumerian "ana", it's not semitic word. "El" hurrian word mean "God" ("Alau"), too hurrian. Hurrians much ancient Semitic peoples, it is a fact. Heshamatak (talk) 07:14, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Btw on some Ebla tablets dated 2250 BC indicated in Summerian (lang.) Two cities si-da-mu and ì-ma-ar. Maybe they were real Sodom and Gomorrah. Need to compare did Sumerians already had legend of flooding the city while si-da-mu and ì-ma-ar were living in prosper. I wish I was studying history.. )))

La'ah ca la'ah ša berš txox sha bovla boxu hum dicič har nax qiyra lo huun. Čox theh vell xil ca öša. Ärmloš i hum lieldiyn šayx ša bolu biezam bay’an huun. Caar hu’a’ älč, naax yuxa’ cha äšpš xir bar iššam õli düt ceer hum. Vayx išt bezam ma bay’itlah. Niis duy daaci loxš ma duy vay. La’ah ca la’ah vayn dayš xilla iš ma ca boxi vay.

Sincerely Nakh 05:56, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Txo hurroj xhilč(hurri juqier aarabowlen) waj behk ma baci i. Heshamatak (talk) 07:14, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Shafi'i or Hanafi?

In the religion of the article, it currently says that most Chechens follow Shafi'i rites, however in the reference provided it says that they are Hanafi [3]. In other sources it says that they are Shafii, eg [4]. Can anyone please clarify? --Urduboy (talk) 12:43, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Genetics: ref Balanovsky

I don't knox how to edit the reflist but here is the ref. for Balanovsky paper:

Balanovsky, O.; Dibirova, K.; Dybo, A.; Mudrak, O.; Frolova, S.; Pocheshkhova, E.; Haber, M.; Platt, D. et al. (2011). "Parallel Evolution of Genes and Languages in the Caucasus Region". Molecular Biology and Evolution 28 (10): 2905–20. doi:10.1093/molbev/msr126. PMID 21571925. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mreg93 (talk • contribs) 15:09, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Image: Khanpasha Nuradilov with a bodycount several times greater than John Rambo's (920 "confirmed kills")

Can we get any less mythological figure? And not some Stalinist propaganda fairy tale according to which one WWII infantryman destroyed what ammounts to a whole regiment. --Niemti (talk) 22:56, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Actually Mansur can also be questioned, as some people say he was really an Italian former monk and adventurer named Giambattista Boetti. --Niemti (talk) 23:00, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Lead summary is basically yet to be written

Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section & Wikipedia:Summary style. --Niemti (talk) 09:14, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Agree. As to the notability section, please do not again delete it on the basis of it not being complete. Notability sections are both: a) standard; and b) virtually never complete. We start somewhere. It is disruptive to delete appropriate material. Add to it if you like, to make it more complete. Thanks.--Epeefleche (talk) 10:56, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Chechen myths

Dear Chechens, if you translate something from encyclopedia, please don't doing it so subjectively. For example, why don't you write this sentence "В обыкновенное время идеал Ч. — грабеж"-"at the usual time chechens ideal - it's robbery"? http://gatchina3000.ru/brockhaus-and-efron-encyclopedic-dictionary/113/113665.htm

Religion

As far as I remember, most of Chechens are Shafii, not Hanafi. Regards...