::::::Well then that's part of the problem then isn't it Neil. Too many people who advocate for all these unnecessary policies, procedures and red tape. Too many vested editors, trying to keep things unnnecessily complicated so new users can't contribute without spending significant time learning all of our editing standards. Too many layers of hierarchy designed to elevate some users to demi god status while keeping others down. That is not a good system and your sarcastic comment does not reflect well on you or the community neil. [[Special:Contributions/108.45.104.69|108.45.104.69]] ([[User talk:108.45.104.69|talk]]) 22:39, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
::::::Well then that's part of the problem then isn't it Neil. Too many people who advocate for all these unnecessary policies, procedures and red tape. Too many vested editors, trying to keep things unnnecessily complicated so new users can't contribute without spending significant time learning all of our editing standards. Too many layers of hierarchy designed to elevate some users to demi god status while keeping others down. That is not a good system and your sarcastic comment does not reflect well on you or the community neil. [[Special:Contributions/108.45.104.69|108.45.104.69]] ([[User talk:108.45.104.69|talk]]) 22:39, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
:::::::It wasn't a sarcastic comment, it was a truthful answer about why all your calls for revolution aren't getting much response. We have developed more policies and procedures over time because, in many cases, they lead to higher quality and more readable articles. Take for example [[WP:MEDRS]] requirements which preclude many new (and veteran) users from contributing to medical articles because the sourcing requirements aren't easy to grasp. But having such strict and defined requirements means content in medical articles is of a very high standard (in theory) which benefits people who use Wikipedia the most - the readers. --[[User:NeilN|'''<font color="navy">Neil<font color="red">N</font></font>''']] <sup>''[[User talk:NeilN|<font color="blue">talk to me</font>]]''</sup> 00:53, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
:::::::It wasn't a sarcastic comment, it was a truthful answer about why all your calls for revolution aren't getting much response. We have developed more policies and procedures over time because, in many cases, they lead to higher quality and more readable articles. Take for example [[WP:MEDRS]] requirements which preclude many new (and veteran) users from contributing to medical articles because the sourcing requirements aren't easy to grasp. But having such strict and defined requirements means content in medical articles is of a very high standard (in theory) which benefits people who use Wikipedia the most - the readers. --[[User:NeilN|'''<font color="navy">Neil<font color="red">N</font></font>''']] <sup>''[[User talk:NeilN|<font color="blue">talk to me</font>]]''</sup> 00:53, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
::::::::Yep, you hit the nail on the head there with "theory". Wikipedia in theory shouldn't work, in practice it does though. When we make it so restrictive to edit that few can do it, then few will and that will almost always lead to a handful of entrenched editors pushing their POV. Look at the Salem witch project, they can hardly make an edit without some conservative christian threatening to block them or delete the article. Same thing goes for other areas. The Mohammed article has multiple restrictions, Bradley manning and the list goes on, largely because one overzealous group didn't want to play nice. It was their way or the highway. So the way we fix that is we lock the article down and ban everybody. But those are only the extreme cases and most never get to that because some entrenched POV editor or admin makes sure that they run off anyone who edits "their" article. But no one does anything and some like you just stand by and let it happen. That is why people don't use Wikipedia, why our numbers are declining, backlogs are growing and the project deteriorating. Because their aren't enough neutral editors who are willing to stand up to make things better for the project and not necessarily for their POV. We neutral members get run out of town as heretics and lunatics. How dare we question the order and hierarchy of things. [[Special:Contributions/108.45.104.69|108.45.104.69]] ([[User talk:108.45.104.69|talk]]) 01:11, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
::::::{{ec}} I love that image. Do you wash them before you put them back into the sockets? Is it like playing marbles? [[User:Timtrent|<span style="color:#800">Fiddle</span>]] [[User talk:Timtrent|<span style="color:#070">Faddle</span>]] 22:41, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
::::::{{ec}} I love that image. Do you wash them before you put them back into the sockets? Is it like playing marbles? [[User:Timtrent|<span style="color:#800">Fiddle</span>]] [[User talk:Timtrent|<span style="color:#070">Faddle</span>]] 22:41, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
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Potentially extremely serious BLP violations and issues of neutrality and accuracy on a range of articles to do with living members of deposed royal families
Hello - just a few days ago I happened to come across an article, I don't remember which one, about a great-grandson or something of the last Emperor of Germany which states that this living person is "His Imperial and Royal Highness Prince Somebody of Prussia" which seemed ridiculous to me as all German royal titles were abolished in 1919 and there has not even been such a place as Prussia since 1947. Looking around a little, I quickly found hundreds of such articles about living people on WP that state that so and so is the "claimant" to various abolished thrones. These articles do not give any evidence that the person himself makes such claims, the truth is that royalty buffs work out who would be "King of Hanover" now had that position not been abolished in 1866 and "style" them as such. This may seem eccentric but harmless in the case of German ex-royal families, although if the articles are not carefully phrased, they could be very misleading. However heraldry experts and genealogists etc. work out who would be King or Emperor of every ex-monarchy and label living persons as such, which is published here in articles on them. This could potentially be dangerous to some individuals of countries where there were revolutions to get rid of monarchs and a lot of people don't want them back. There are numerous issues with these articles, I have opened an RfC at Manual of Style talk on the specific issue of applying such "styles and titles" as "Her Royal Highness the Princess of Prussia" to living persons for whom such claims to abolished royal titles are made by others, please join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biographies#Use of royal "Titles and styles" and honorific prefixes in articles and templates referring to pretenders to abolished royal titles and their families. Regards,Smeat75 (talk) 20:12, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sigh. In short, Smeat75 has apparently recently learned that the use of titles by German nobility is regulated by custom and has not official standing in German law. As usual, we base our articles in part on custom (what are these people actually called by reliable sources?) and not solely on law. (This is consistent with general practice: e.g., courtesy titles in the United Kingdom are used in official documents, which at the same time acknowledge that those titles hare bestowed only by custom and do not have legal standing.) Unfortunately, this is now progressing to the usual signs of mania: RfCs posted at many noticeboards, notices at many talk pages, forum-shopping to this page, increasingly grandiose claims of policy violation, etc. Additional opinions are, of course, welcome, although a certain terseness would be appreciated. Choess (talk) 20:52, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Only in that he gave his opinion in the notification making it a less than neutral notice, but there is no indication he picked editors only for support. I had made a BLP thread recently about an article on a subject claiming to be the King of Hawaii. My question was whether or not Wikipedia articles should be used to make claims on a throne. I also thought that the article's tone was less than encyclopedic. I am sure I was chosen based on that or my recent GA review of Charles I of England. But we have both already discussed the canvassing issue and I don't think it is enough to overshadow the issue Smeat75 raises.--Mark Miller (talk) 19:17, 28 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have been quite patient with him and tried to give him explanations from the real world and background history of royalty and nobility in Europe (I have some knowledge on this as I am a direct descendant of Warinus de la Strode); and some knowledge on Wikipedia policy regarding NPOV and RS and NOR. Im at the end of my tolerance for this. Unfortunately he was given some advice on his talk page to continue to try and find similar voices to his own and I think he may have misinterpreted it in a way that has caused him to violate our canvassing rules. This is quickly moving towards something that is going to need a topic ban.Camelbinky (talk) 21:16, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think the original poster does raise a valid concern, and one which I think should be taken seriously. I think it would be a mistake to fail to take the concern seriously simply because it has been pressed in excessively dramatic and numerous places. It is undeniable that people sometimes use the word "pretender" and "claimant" when in fact the person in question is neither pretending nor claiming anything. And even when they are claiming something we need to be careful about what exactly they are claiming.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:44, 28 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Jimbo, the place in which I have seen him be the most persistent is at an article in which the person's noble title has been attested to in sources which show the British crown, the govt of France, and the prince of Monaco have all called him by that title. And also his wife who is a princess of Monaco and the heir apparent goes officially by HIS title, which is a title Smeat says has been abolished in Germany. One country abolishing titles in their borders does not affect the title itself as other countries can continue to acknowledge those titles. In this particular case, which concerns Hanover, the king was deposed when Prussia conquered it, any "contender" or "pretender" does not have to be affected by a law in Germany abolishing titles, because he was kicked out of his country illegally 50 years prior to the law. Hanover royalty and nobility, through its once personal union with the United Kingdom, is affected more by British law than German, descendants of Hanoverian royalty are still princes according to British law and to this day require the Queen's written approval on marrying another royal/noble for instance. If third party refers to a person as a noble or royal title in a reliable third party published source, I see no alternative but to call the person by that title or else doing otherwise is a clear violation of BLP. Have I missed something that you see otherwise?Camelbinky (talk) 18:33, 28 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You see, this is why I feel we need to address this concern. Being called "Your highness" or "Prince" by royalty of other nations does not mean the person has that title or style. We are being told here that, currently, all the source has to do is refer to the subject in any manner and they are encyclopedically endowed with that "official" title. Each monarchy is different, but usually there is a particular manner in which persons are granted these titles and styles and, like any position, public office etc., you would want to know that even that reliable source's term is accurate and not just repeat or parrot the inaccuracies.--Mark Miller (talk) 18:53, 28 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It isn't a name it's a title and style granted in some fashion and with some standard. The implication is more than some fancy word before a name. Through history we can clearly see the religious implications. Many in Japan still believe the emperor is their god. Even in the UK it is believed that the Queen rules through divine right as do many monarchies. If someone was granted such there will be a reliable source with that information. Its different depending on the one location to the next, but I believe the father has to acknowledge the heir and formally grant the right to a title and style, unless granted by a higher sovereign. And that last part is probably the biggest issue, in that these titles imply sovereignty. That isn't common or implied just because many believe it to be true.--Mark Miller (talk) 19:42, 28 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It is clear that COMMONNAME is not really particularly helpful or applicable to people with royal or noble titles. There are clear reasons involving disambiguation, scholarly clarity, etc. that make it sensible and useful for us to title articles by more formal names in some cases. Reality is not one-size-fits-all in terms of naming conventions. (That is not to say that COMMONNAME should be completely disregarded, but that it is one of several competing concerns.) Additionally, it is also clear that titles can be legally recognized or not and still be valid in some narrower sense. We should, of course, make clear that some people with titles no longer hold them legally - it would confuse readers otherwise. But to ignore them, particularly if the subject and most media still use them, strikes me as equally mistaken. Things like recognition by other monarchs are factors to consider. Weighing up all the factors - editorial judgment - will not always be easy and will not always follow a simple formula, but can be undertaken in good faith and successfully. The specific concern that the original poster was raising is one that I share: there are sometimes enthusiasts/hobbyists who overuse the terms "pretender" and "claimant" to refer to people who are making no claim whatsoever. If someone actually is claiming a particular title, but there is some doubt about it, or there is some question about the legal status, then those terms can be fine to use. But in the past (we are sadly short on actual current examples in this discussion, I'm afraid) we have had some problems in this area.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:58, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Since the area we're talking about is essentially titles whose legitimacy is disputed, I can't see how it makes much sense to suppose we can sort things out by deciding whether a particular title is legitimate or not. The only thing we can really look to is whether it generally recognized or not. Formerip (talk) 20:35, 28 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Mark, you made the misconception that is causing this problem- you say the titles imply sovereignty. They do not! The British monarchy claimed the title of King of France all the way up to 1801 when France became a republic. The prince of Monaco still has titles to French territory that it owns, but owns in the same way that I own my property in the USA, there is no sovereignty with the title and land. The prince happens to own property that was once associated with a FRENCH noble title, and now the nation of Monaco has taken the title for its prince even though FRANCE has abolished the same title.Camelbinky (talk) 03:30, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The requesting of permission doesn't really have anything to do with royal status or lack thereof. It is because of the Royal Marriages Act 1772, providing that no descendent of George II (except princesses marrying into foreign families) could marry without the monarch's consent. This was really George III annoyed at his brother marrying against his will. I don't think it's been an issue since there were rumors the Queen might refuse her sister Margaret permission to marry Group Captain Peter Townsend in the Fifties. But that doesn't mean that the ex-Hanoverian royal family is recognized as royal by the UK.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:28, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
User:Wehwalt in the official statement by the Queen, she does refer to the Hanoverian "pretender" by those very titles that those on Wikipedia claim the person does not legally have. If she recognizes him as such, then he is as such. And the govts of France and Monaco have also acknowledged his titles, in fact his wife is referred to by HIS title. How much more do you need?Camelbinky (talk) 23:17, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Elizabeth II issued the following Declaration in Council: "My Lords, I do hereby declare My Consent to a Contract of Matrimony between His Royal Highness Prince Ernst August Albert of Hanover, Duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg and Her Serene Highness Princess Caroline Louise Marguerite of Monaco...". Since their marriage Monaco itself refers to Princess Caroline as being Princess Caroline of Hanover since the title of her husband ranks higher than her own, even though her title is "real" and his "is not" according to some editors in this discussion. Again, some one please tell me how you decide that it is not a BLP violation to go against a reliable source mentioning what the Queen calls this man, and which the nations of Monaco and France have both also acknowledged as his titles. As far as I'm concerned if you try to ignore calling him by these titles you are violating BLP, it is that simpleCamelbinky (talk) 01:55, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
(In response to Mark Miller above, the formatting is getting a bit confusing) Click through to the divine right article, and you'll find that it hasn't been applicable to the UK since 1688... MChesterMC (talk) 17:01, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree with that. It isn't a formal matter, it's one in regards to what many people still think and many people do still think that the Queen rules by divine right. But I really like Jimbo's more well thought out reply. Seems that this comes down to many factors and, more importantly, how we present the information, taking in all the sources and how they get their information and are using it along with all the other factors. I don't know about anyone else but I found that immensely helpful.--Mark Miller (talk) 03:21, 1 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I got sick of arguing about this and have not looked at this page for days, but I am very glad to see that Jimbo Wales himself thinks I have a point. Would he like to take over arguing with various users, and one in particular, who will instantly revert any indication that so-and-so is not really "HRH His Royal Highness The Prince of Somewhere that Has Not Existed for 150 Years?" or that you cannot say that this or that person is a former royal because they're not former royals just because some government passed some law? or that it absolutely cannot be allowed to make any distinction between holders of titles that are recognised by the government of their country and those that are mere "titles of pretense" as the monarchist Bible the Almanach of Gotha calls them? If someone wants to battle with the people who watchlist these articles for two years or so, I'm sure the simple point that I was trying to make, WP should distinguish between holders of titles that are currently officially recognised and those that are not,could be carried, but it will be hard work.Smeat75 (talk) 03:24, 1 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
And Camelbinky I told you I was not going to try to edit that page about Ernst August any more and I have not, basically because it seems to upset you, it is not that important to me, and that is only one of hundreds, maybe thousands, of articles that present very misleading, or indeed outright false, information - "Styles and Titles -HRH The Princess of Somewhere" when there has not been an officially recognised such person for nearly a hundred years or more, all I wanted to do was put in a line like "These are titles that are sometimes used as courtesy, but are historical titles only and carry no official status", but it is absolutely not allowed.Smeat75 (talk) 03:31, 1 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Jimbo says above "We should, of course, make clear that some people with titles no longer hold them legally - it would confuse readers otherwise." Would you like me to give you a list of the many articles on ex-German royals (only you are not allowed to call them that, they are not "ex" just because the government of Germany abolished royal titles, according to the royalty buffs here) that do not make that clear at all? And there is one user who will argue with you till hell freezes over that "legally" has nothing to do with it, titles are not regulated by law.I have not even looked at articles on ex-royal families of Russia, Austria, France, etc. And for an example of an article that uses "claimant",sorry Camelbinky, but please look at Prince Ernst August of Hanover (born in 1954), in the lead you will see it says he is the "claimant to the thrones of the former Kingdom of Hanover and the former Duchy of Brunswick." Does this person himself make any "claims" to the throne of Hanover (abolished 1866) or the throne of the Duchy of Brunswick (abolished 1918)? I would be insulted myself to see allegations published that I was so foolish as to make "claims" on non-existent thrones. These people are labelled as such by royalty buffs and genealogists and so forth, I do not see any evidence that they themselves make such claims. It is all a fantasy world, if people want to pretend, which is the revealing and accurate technical term used by experts in these matters, that titles that have been abolished 100 years or more still exist, I don't see why WP has to pretend along with them.Smeat75 (talk) 03:58, 1 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Maria Vladimirovna, Grand Duchess of Russia....has been a claimant...and pretender to the titles Empress and Autocrat of All the Russias.... since 1992." Or see [1] "List of Bonapartist claimants to the French throne" where a living person is named as "Jean-Christophe Napoléon, Claimant (1997–present), son of Charles, appointed heir by his grandfather Louis." or a "rival" [2],this is the living " Orléanist Claimant to the French throne",Henri, Comte de Paris, Duc de France 1999-Today" and of course he isn't an officially recognised Comte or Duc and Maria V is not really a Grand Duchess either. How many more would you like?Smeat75 (talk) 04:37, 1 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Pick your most reasonable opponent. Approach them with a proposal for BLP guidance on such "pretender" claims (eg 'it must be clear and sourced if they themselves claim it, and if not who does (by attribution) make the "claim" about them ) and go to VPP, and put the proposal you work out up for adoption. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:18, 1 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That is a good idea in theory, however it is what policy already is, we don't need it specifically spelled out for nobility. BLP and V and NOR and RS all require us to already source... everything. If Smeat shows me a noble or pretender to royalty whose title is original research and is not attested to in some source then I will be Smeat's greatest ally in changing that article, we don't need a policy change. I have been given no evidence that is what is being pushed at any of these discussions. When Smeat has been given evidence of someone having been called by in a reliable source a noble, or a pretender to a crown, the answer I have personally seen is repeatedly mentioning that, that country abolished noble titles so it doesn't matter. I actually am not one of the "royalists" here on Wikipedia, that's not how I joined this discussion, my thing in this discussion has been and will be simply following the !rules on BLP and sourcing. We follow what the sources say, whether we like it or not.Camelbinky (talk) 17:24, 1 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Also looking back two days ago to another Wikimedia Foundation blog post, there is mention of a Wikimedia extension that "utilizes the free music-engraving program LilyPond". What better place to learn about LilyPond than Wikipedia, where the #1 contributor to that article (with over 19x more edits than the next-closest editor) is User:Pnorcks? His user page proudly proclaims, :"Hi! I'm here to improve the LilyPond page and to update release versions when appropriate.
Some other ways I am involved with LilyPond:
Maintaining PKGBUILD scripts (Arch Linux) for the development and git versions: [1], [2].
Reporting bugs.
Fixing bugs.
Tracking regressions.
General source code maintenance.
Improving the SVG backend [3].
Reporting bugs for the installer builder, GUB [4].
Check out LilyPond if you're interested in music typesetting.
It's strange that a person volunteered his time to develop an open-source program and helped integrate it into MediaWiki software and also helped write the Wikipedia page? I think you are confused about what a conflict of interest is. This is no more a conflict of interest then someone who runs a Jane Austen reading group writing the article Jane Austen. There are no two interests which conflict. He's not given any tangle benefits by anyone to write on or promote LilyPond. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 21:05, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know if you know how foolish you sound, Atethnekos; but let me quote you the very first lines of the WP:COI guideline:
A Wikipedia conflict of interest (COI) is an incompatibility between the aim of Wikipedia, which is to produce a neutral, reliably sourced encyclopedia, and the aims of an individual editor. COI editing involves contributing to Wikipedia to promote your own interests...
So, have you looked at the LilyPond article? I have. I see it failing the above "aim of Wikipedia" on several counts. Is the article neutral? I suppose it's close to being neutral, but it is apparent that the authors of this article painstakingly point out several beneficial features of the software, but there is not a single criticism or limitation of the software expressed. For example, one of the sources used as a reference in the article says of LilyPond, "The user doesn’t get the instant visual feedback that they would see with a graphical interface", but there is no mention of this in the Wikipedia article. Likewise the reviewer's comment, "the disadvantage that it is much harder to read, but what really bothered me was how long it took me to type all the notes", is not assessed in the Wikipedia article. So, the net result is that we really don't have a neutral article right now, and we can probably blame the COI editor for that.
Next, is the article reliably sourced? There are 21 sources referenced. Sixteen of them (76%) point to the LilyPond website, or to the related GNU project pages. Neither of these sites are the independent, third-party, objective publications that we would typically look for. The remaining 5 sources are to GitHub and a couple of rather obscure-looking document-sharing sites dedicated to code development, it appears. Which leads me to ask, has LilyPond ever been covered in any level of detail in any mainstream publication, and if so, why hasn't it been included in the article here? (FYI, there areseveralsources that could be used, but they haven't.) So, on this count of "reliable sources", I would say that the current article mostly fails, and we can probably blame the COI editor for that.
Finally, has the primary editor of the article "promote <his> own interests"? Without question! There were plentiful musical scores that he could have used as an example of LilyPond scripting, but he selected a composition of his own. That puts his own promotion before the goals of the Wikipedia project to produce a neutral encyclopedia. If you're not able to see that, then you're probably blinded by the "free culture" movement's objectives, which itself is a form of bias. - I'm not that crazy (talk) 21:55, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I am sorry that I look so foolish. I can definitely say that I've not been blinded by the objectives of a movement of which I've never been a part, however. I agree, the article is not neutral. I don't see how it is a matter of COI, however. This user receives no tangible benefits in relation to LilyPond or an example composition to demonstrate LilyPond output. The "interest" in "conflict of interest" does not refer to just any interest that a person has in a topic. A user is a fan of Jane Austen and submits corrigenda to editions of Jane Austen. That doesn't mean that such a user has a conflict of interest for the topic of Jane Austen. A user who is a fan of LilyPond and submits fixes to versions of LilyPond, is a perfectly analogous case. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 22:12, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I take a dimmer view of this sort of editing than you do, Atethnekos, but agree that it is not a canonical case of the kind of editing that the Bright Line Rule as a best practice is designed to cover. The editor in question does not have a specifically financial conflict of interest, and therefore falls into a different category of advocate.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:44, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Jimmy, how do you know that the editor does not have a specifically financial conflict of interest? Have you investigated his paid occupation and ruled out how LilyPond promotion might enhance his career? For example, someone might use the LilyPond platform as a way to advertise one's self as an "SVG guru", and then participate heavily in a Linux project relating to SVG fonts, and that project may directly benefit his work at Intel, his paying employer. In response to Atethnekos above, I would say there's a big difference between a paid computer code developer working on Wikipedia articles about Jane Austen, and a paid computer code developer working on Wikipedia articles about computer code. Totally in agreement that the LilyPond example is not the worst we've seen in a while (that distinction would probably go to the Wikimedia Norway trustee using Wikipedia to enhance the reputation of his telecommunications company while simultaneously deprecating the articles about his company's competitors); but if we're not on the look-out for COI in our own backyard, and we're ready to say "it's not so bad, because it's a volunteer writing about a non-profit subject", then what's to stop Bill Gates from editing the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, or to stop you from editing the article about Wikimedia Foundation? A Bright Line Rule shouldn't have such exceptions, even if to avoid the appearance' of a problematic conflict of interest. - I'm not that crazy (talk) 13:10, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I can't be certain, of course. But it's highly unlikely. And I think you're going one step too far if you really think that it is problematic for a paid computer code developer to write articles about computer code. That's nonsense and destroys the entire concept of "conflict of interest". But certainly it is a conflict of interest (though unlikely to be a financial one) for a volunteer coder working on an open source project to write about that project. There are very good reasons why Bill Gates shouldn't edit the Gates Foundation article, even though it is extremely unlikely to bring him any noticeable financial benefit - that's grasping at straws. Here's the point I'm making: different kinds of problems are different. Zealots writing about their favorite subject in a biased manner is a problem - a big one - but a different one from professional PR firms engaging in unethical behavior. Open source advocates/coders writing about things they are involved with is a problem - probably not a big one, but a problem - but is also different from professional PR firms engaging in unethical behavior. It's important to draw these distinctions and to outlaw the obviously wrong things, without getting to confused and bothered about borderline cases or that our work won't solve all problems at once.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:20, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If it's sensible to say that a paid computer code developer can be welcome to write articles about computer code, then maybe it's time we happily say that it's sensible for a paid encyclopedist to be welcome to write encyclopedia articles. Several of the paid editing services out there are not really PR firms at all. They are quite simply skilled writers of encyclopedia articles who (when you get right down to it) don't really have a vested interest in the subject matter. They're just looking to create a wholly acceptable encyclopedia article, get paid for their research and writing skills, then move on to the next client. Somebody above said that WP:RS, WP:V, WP:NPOV, and WP:NOTE are enough to keep Wikipedia on the right track. I agree. - I'm not that crazy (talk) 04:02, 1 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That's naive or disingenuous and I'm quite sure you know it. We have plenty of evidence that it is absolutely false. You are (deliberately?) confusing issues by referring to people writing on behalf of a client as "paid encyclopedists". It would be very different - and something I would support actually, although there are a lot of things to work out first - if the Wikimedia Foundation hired people to deal with corporate articles. The Wikimedia Foundation would not charge for the service, and the authors would be paid for writing for the encyclopedia, not for writing for clients. This is something that could alleviate the dishonest suggestion that corporate pr fluff is better than nothing at all, or that people writing for clients would be neutral.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:35, 1 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I was not being naive nor disingenuous. I have not confused any issues. Perhaps you feel the need to cast aspersions, calling me naive, disingenuous, confusing, or dishonest, because you are unwilling to take an honest and sincere look at the work of paid encyclopedists? If writers follow WP:RS, WP:V, WP:NPOV, and WP:NOTE, it doesn't matter if they are paid to produce the content or not. Paid encyclopedists develop a primary objective: create content that is compliant with Wikipedia's standards, so that it does not get attacked by other editors or deleted. If their work is deleted, their client is disappointed in their performance, and the author is disappointed in his or her performance. People naturally seek to avoid disappointing others or themselves, and so the content is written to be compliant with Wikipedia policies and guidelines. I was going to present to you a useful exercise, where I would give you three different articles about Internet wagering companies -- one written by a Wikipedian with no apparent conflict of interest, one written by an employee of the company, and one written by what appears to be a paid encyclopedist -- then ask you which of the three has best followed the rules of sourcing, verifiability, neutrality, and notability. Hint: only one of the articles will have included a section on the legal troubles that the company has suffered, and that was the work of the paid encyclopedist. However, I'm now reluctant to present these examples, because some Wikipedians will inevitably abuse one, two, or all three of the articles to make a point. I agree that there are numerous problematic paid advocacy editors out there. I believe there are even more problematic unpaidadvocacy editors at work. But I also sincerely believe that there are a few paid encyclopedists who are regularly recognizing how following WP:RS, WP:V, WP:NPOV, and WP:NOTE leads to successful and compliant content; and the primary reason they don't disclose what they are doing is because of the fact that other misinformed Wikipedians with an agenda of their own will then trash their work, much as you chose to trash my informed opinion as "disingenuous". - I'm not that crazy (talk) 12:36, 1 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I maintain that this remains either naive or disingenuous. It is of course not hard to cherry pick counter examples but you cannot have seriously looked into this issue with any degree of thoroughness and come to this conclusion, which is directly the opposite of the facts of reality as recognized by virtually everyone who has looked into it. Your position is not a serious one.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:21, 1 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Your disquisition is unresponsive to Jimbo's point. Undisclosed financial COI editors operate under the age old wisdom that 'she or he who pays the piper calls the tune.' This has been demonstrated in academic studies of disclosed COI, and in the (practically) universal reputable practice of COI policies in publishing, or profit, or non-profit organizations. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:50, 1 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
In traditional publishing or academic circles, those who are offended by paid COI do not have the power to delete all of the work presented by the paid editor, regardless of the quality and accuracy of the paid editor's work. On Wikipedia, that power is regularly exercised, recklessly. Therefore, your comparison is faulty and can be disregarded. - I'm not that crazy (talk) 17:27, 1 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Writers in the technology press have disagreed that the dependence on enforcement of RS, NPOV, etc. is successful in dealing with paid advocates: "If publicists were to overtake the voluntary editors, much of the site would become online billboards (perhaps with deceptively neutral writing). But as it stands now, the protection against biased writing — dogged hounding from voluntary editors, and disorderly debates — is narrowing the field of voluntary editors, and most likely turning off potentially valuable contributors." (Salon 23 October 2013 [3]) The techniques currently used to combat paid advocacy editing (automated tools like Stiki, aggressive enforcement of WP:NPOV and WP:V) are part of what is causing the decline. This was confirmed by Aaron Halfaker's assessment of the current decline in Wikipedia (MIT Technology Review October 22 2013 [4]). "Overall, the site’s community of editors has done a decent job of weeding out the worst self-promotional offenders, or at least moderating their contributions. But according to the Wikimedia Foundation, Wikipedia’s parent entity, the tactics being used to force content onto the site are becoming more advanced and more widespread ... It’s this type of “astroturfing” activity that Wikimedia is struggling to identify and contain." (Digiday 26 November 2013 [5]). --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 04:42, 1 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I am pleased to see that the technology press agree with me, that Wikipedians are failing to properly enforce RS, NPOV, etc., and that their alternative (abusive) approaches to content quality are turning off optimistic editors. I really couldn't agree more. There's a certain "we're right, you're wrong" attitude displayed on Wikipedia that is extremely off-putting to intelligent, thoughtful people who have more real-world experience than the entrenched digital-world editors here. - I'm not that crazy (talk) 17:27, 1 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
They are not agreeing with you. The implication made is that the enforcement of RS NPOV etc is not a productive method for dealing with the biased production by the financial COI editors, and that something else is needed. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 23:07, 1 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Writing articles is a struggle beyond paid advocacy: Beyond the problems, noted above, with paid advocacy, the general "dogged hounding from voluntary editors, and disorderly debates" (Salon 23 October 2013 [6]) is a system-wide problem which can drive away new editors, but also consider the sheer volume of articles to update. Bottomline: It is difficult to write, or expand, numerous articles with so many problems not controlled by wp:WikiProjects, while a few people continually carp or badger other users. Perhaps we should warn new users to beware the "disorderly debates" but we also need to authorize more admins who wish to moderate the conflicts. Just as some police officers are willing to work for low pay while they "serve and protect" the public, I think we could get more people to "carry a badge" and diffuse hostile discussions, but the related complaint has been "no power to enforce" which I think could be improved by issuing cumulative demerit points for improper actions which could total to multi-day or multi-week blocks when people continued to incur demerits for incivil remarks. On the other hand, look how the unfettered acceptance of adverts at Google Knol completely flooded the system with commercial pages, where wp:NPOV-neutral text was rare to find among the knol pages. If WP were pleasantly friendly to paid advocates, then the system could drown in the more than thousands of new articles for the 250,000 known footballers in the world. Beyond the harsh debates, there is the overwhelming volume of articles to update, unless harnessed by wp:WikiProjects. -Wikid77 (talk) 08:19, 1 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
A bureaucratic nightmare
Does it never amaze you that we have used your concept and created red tape here of a depth and complexity that would never have been envisaged by even the most totalitarian regime? We have done it on purpose and by consensus. We have created what is probably the world's most complicated ants nest.
We must deserve this because we have done it ourselves, and we seek, sometimes, to create ever more layers of complexity and ever more rules for the unwary to trip over.
Jimbo IAR and Bold are dead policies. The only times their used are by admins and if some new editor uses them their blocked without hesitation. RFA is a nightmare, new users avoid Wikipedia even for research needs, abusive admins and POV editors are entrenched and can't be removed and the list goes on. The community is completely incapbale of doing anything even resembling meaningful change and the WMF has completely mishandled the implementation and development of changes. Need I say more, the list goes on. Wikipedia is a ship without a captain. The ones at the helm have no vision, their own agenda and no ability to think past their own petty needs. 108.45.104.69 (talk) 14:09, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There's an interesting dynamic. When people gain experience they become more aware of the folly around them. At first they think the world must be going to hell, but eventually they realize that the folly has been there all along. Please don't worry too much about Wikipedia. It hasn't gotten worse; you've just become more perceptive or more informed. JehochmanTalk17:39, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I believe WP has encountered a great deal of entropy: where there was once seemingly order in the eyes of the "old-school" editors, the is now seemingly disorder. However, a newer editor may still see order. Too bad WP:ENTROPY is a red link; I would enjoy reading that essay. Perspective plays a large part, too -- as does adaptability. Rgrds. --64.85.214.13 (talk) 18:18, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Actually I am well aware of the ups and downs of Wikipedia and in almost every way Wikipedia was better 5 years ago than it is today with the exception of volume of content. People wanted to work together and formed projects with the goal of improvement through collaboration, now almost all of those projects are dead because the majority of the editors who wanted to work together have been driven from the project. The ones that remain have either become admins or are only interested in staying quietly in the corner and not drawing attention. RFA has become a nonproductive joke, almost every admin was promoted more than 5 years ago and almost every admin area is backlogged, some for months and some only survive because of the dedication of one or 2. If they leave, that's it. Arbcom and Arb enforcement are a joke where acceptance of a case means guilt; the WMF keeps trying to thrust broken and underdeveloped changes on the community because even they recognize the community is incapable of doing anything about it (although Visual Editor was a quasi exception to that) and the community has become so under control by abusive admins and editors that most are afraid to come out of the shadows for fear of being banned. Even admin and long term editors are leaving or being banned; 900 out of 1400 admins are largely inactive and there is no end in sight. Wikipedia is failing and its up to Jimbo whether he wants to go ahead and keep ignoring the problem and enjoying the fame or do something about all these problems and act. As it is it appears to me andn probably others as well that Jimbo is trying to distance himself from the project before it fails so it doesn't tarnish his good name. That way he can say I passed on all my powers years ago. Its not my fault. Its no secret that Wikipedia is just an advertisement for the for profit Wikia and the Wikimedia software. But it would be nice if this free advertisement didn't disappear from the earth do to benign neglect. 108.45.104.69 (talk) 18:46, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict)[rant mode] Ah, it is no particular rule. We have admins, who ought to act only as if they have mops and buckets, but some of whom act as if they are more important than some minor deity. We have bureaucrats, and the term itself is astounding anyway. There are stewards, clerks, smurfs... wait, not smurfs... noticeboards where if you choose the wrong one for a problem all you get is a snarky "Not this one" but where no-one places the issue on the right one because of the smurfs... ah no, no smurfs. We have mediators, welcomers, editor retainers, article rescuers, and countless committees. And we have ArbCom who seem almost to equate to Lord Voldemort in that naming ArbCom on anyone's talk page in an discussion context is seen as a threat, and we leave for the Wikimines, never to reappear.
No, no rules irk me particularly. I am simply commenting on the great edifice, constructed in East German architecture from the grim period, (no, not the Brothers Grimm). How did we end up with this enormous and complex load of stuff to assist with(?) the construction of a simple encyclopaedia? Why did we design this? Who actually volunteered for it?
We have more systems to control us that to write articles and we have created them!
and your not alone Fiddle Faddle. There are lots of editors who feel that Wikipedia has lost its way but the culture that we have developed here is also one that stygmatizes anyone who dares question the regime. 108.45.104.69 (talk) 19:03, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Re red tape and complexity - Sue Gardner made an astute observation that our very flat organizational structure is conducive to a proliferation of policies, guidelines and essays, while not making it easy to do an overhaul which would affect multiple areas simultaneously. I once considered an overhaul of our advice regarding copyright, and it was a project just to identify all that we have to say on the subject. Overhaul would require either massive collaboration or authority from a non-existent editorial board to streamline the material. I think her observation was on-target, and will require some significant changes to our structure if we want to address the red tape bloat.
Re IAR this is a good example of a meta rule that ought to be used less frequently over time, if we are doing our job. The rule allowed us to address situation where either the written rules were silent, or worse, suggested a course of action that was counter-productive. As we fill in the gaps, and modify rules to better address situations, there as fewer and fewer situations when IAR would be needed. The reduction is a sign of things working well, not a sign of failure.
Re RFA - while the process has some know problems, calling it a "nightmare" is not accurate. If it really was a nightmare, more editors would be supporting formation of a Wikiproject to do a comprehensive study of issues, and present reform ideas in an organized way. --S Philbrick(Talk)19:19, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Actually the statement that RFA is a nightmare has been stated repeatedly by a multitude of admins and editors. Even Jimbo has stated as such multiple times in the past so IMO that particular observation has been affirmed. In regards to the statements by Sue, that was a few years ago and its even more true now than it was then. What we have now is a culture where the most entrenched editors survive. Even once flourishing projects like military history are seeing steep declines in participation. I do agree that it would take action to change but that could occur in a multitude of ways, not the least of which is for the WMF to step up and establish some changes that would make this project viable although given their recent history the last couple years, involvement by them frieghtens me. As I stated above, no one there has any visions to make this project viable and sustainable. To do that we need a multiple of changes in multiple areas concurrently. RFA, article development, policy and we need to establish a group with the authority to police the admins. Overreaching and underdeveloped software like Visual editor and flow are not the answers. If the culture and policy drive people out or keep them from coming to edit then all the software in the world won't fix it. When this community starts doing something to address the admin abuses and destructive editors and wikiprojects then a step will be made in the right direction. 108.45.104.69 (talk) 19:46, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Regime was mentioned. But we are the regime. We love to apply rules. The rulebook grants us the authority and power over others. The Wisdom of Crowds creates lynch law and posses. We even style them with names. We have deletionists, inclusionists, and otherists. We have smurfs. Damn, no, we have no smurfs. We have elections. We have votes that are !votes and yet other votes that are votes. We form, laugh at, and spit in the eye of consensus. We are civilly obscenely rude to others. We pillory people and then pillory the people who pillory the people who pilloried the people. And we do this in a caring and sharing way. This is a mixture of Lord of the Rings and Lord of the Flies. And yet we can correct this, if we choose. Except,when we attempt it, those who are empowered by the rules choose that we may not form new rules, or may not repeal old rules. FiddleFaddle21:20, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Timtrentl, who I believe has hit upon the primary reason we are losing editors. I disagree with him when he says that the entire community supports this state of affairs, as I certainly don't. One cannot be creative and innovative in this kind of environment. People who want to play lawyer or politician should do it elsewhere. We should focus more on research and teaching each other how to break down barriers, not build them. This is especially true when trying to unify all knowledge across every disparate discipline into a coherent whole. Unfortunately, most either don't get this or are actively working to build walls between other editors and the ideas they work with in the articles. Viriditas (talk) 23:34, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Then it is time to change it, potentially suddenly and brutally. Things need to be ripped away. But the Wisdom of Crowds has been unleashed, and crowd behaviour is very different from individual behaviour. You want change, so does 'the community' but then consensus looms and we find that the most articulate usually prevails, at least sometimes, and sways the floating folk into their way of thinking. And building consensus is fun and often biased. Yes, the community supports change, but not as much as it supports the status quo. And the juggernaut rolls on, steered by no-one because it is steered by all. Except that 'all' really means the vociferous few who can be bothered to join in and steer. We consent to be governed by consensus even when we disagree, and thus we must adhere to its rules, and we do. And we do it more tenaciously than we adhere to laws in life. Which of us who drives a car or rides a motorcycle is not a habitual criminal by breaking the speed limit? Here we do not break it. Why? Because everyone is a policeman here. "That was your third reversion, Jenkins Minor. It's a block for you next. There are preventative, not punitive, you know." And so they are, until the block extends and extends and then is indefinite.
Yes, it is time to change; but what to change? Do we remove a load of admins? If so, why? WHat about some of the committees? Does ArbCom go? Why, if so? It is useful, isn't it? It serves a purpose designed by consent and consensus. Ah, let's kill off something useless, then. Only they are all useful. And so it goes.
If retention of editors is important then why do we have this enormous set of rules, guidelines, processes, and people who seem to be important in some way. Jimbo, you aren't important here, by your own choice, and you kicked this whole thing off, so why is it that others seem to be?
Like—Smurfs at last ... and FiddleFaddle's last comment ["Regime was mentioned. But we are the regime..."] seems to be evolving from ranting to poetic prose—Like
As my own disillusionment from the PR of glossy professed egalitarian ideals to the 'better wear hip waders and have a HAZMAT suit at hand' realities of Wikipedia editing around litigious often obtuse bureaucratic cesspools of Vogon excrement and petty militant tyranny was kinda' harsh—I'm now careful not to recommend en.Wikipedia editing to anyone without extensive warnings and caveats.
What is portrayed and professed seems to me to differ greatly from actual practice and procedure at this point. One comes traipsing in merrily wearing the rose colored glasses they've been issued at the gate only to find at some point that their last turn on the path has brought them into a gladiatorial ring horribly underdressed. Massive gaps between de jure and de facto. Perhaps some consideration should be given to amending what is professed in the first place as this may prove more readily achievable than shifting cultural attitudes and community practice. Things wouldn't necessarily be any more pleasant day-to-day but at least they'd be more honest and new editors would have some idea of what to expect.
For instance 'Ignore All Rules' could be downgraded from the 'Five Pillars' as at this point bringing the term "context" into a discussion is generally greeted with blank glazed looks after which folks swiftly release a new wave of WP:[Insert Acronym Here] links many of which themselves contain context dependent caveats which are routinely ignored by those citing them. In present practice rules and guidelines are cited as laws and commandments regardless of assertions that the ideal should be otherwise. WikiLawyering seems to have become the norm. I suggest that we discuss changing the ideals to meet the practice. At the very least we should come out of the experience having had a good collective look in the mirror.
Ah, Kevjonesin, You mean "Welcome to Gladiatorpedia, where the last editor standing may prevail and then turn out the lights"?
If what we have today is what was intended, or even expected when it was initiated, then it is a huge and successful social experiment. But I cherish the thought that the environment here is not as was wished by our founder when he thought of the scheme. I polish that thought, sometimes, and this thread is my attempt to polish it in public. FiddleFaddle00:20, 1 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Notice the *continued* steady post-2009 policy-churn! I think that Jimbo gave us the hint already: whatever we have made, we can unmake. We still have the freedom we need, to choose wisely; we even have the *time* we need. We are lucky! There are two possibilities. Either active-editor-count will continue to trend downwards,[7] until the WMF is forced to sell out (to WikiPR? GOOG? NSA? EU? FB? MSFT? some combo? hardly matters). But then, editors can leave, and the copyleft license will preserve the content (text if not image), and then perhaps another URL will arise to host a new&improved Non-Totalitarian Community™. Of course, that's a pretty-much-worst-case scenario. ((The utterly-worst-case-scenario is global thermonuclear war combined with ten-kilometer-asteroid-strike.))
The better idea is to start the unmaking process today. First up: unmake WP:FLOW, it is the wrong design. Next up: unmake VizEd, it is the wrong design. This is not lowest-common-dedumbipedia. Then, concentrate on what will really help invert that downward-trending-editor-count: shake up the wikiCulture. From the bottom up, not from the top down. If you live in a society where there are a bunch of rules, but nobody enforces them unless you're really screwing things up, that's not good. But it's way better than living in a totalitarian society where everybody is a wikiCop, monitoring and spying on everybody else, an aristocracy of pull, where whoever knows the most draconian admin, whoever can hire the best wikiLawyer, wins. So I suggest we start small, and rather than overturn all the rules, simply... stop... enforcing all the bad ones.
If we really want to attract fresh blood, we start taking WP:IAR as the foundational pillar, in a countdown-system. Pillar five as our guiding star: ignore anything that interferes with improving wikipedia herself. That includes bringing in new people; if a rule screws that up, ignore that rule with a vengeance. Pillar four is the next-most-important-rule. FiddleFaddle speaks of "civilly obscenely rude" and it happens every day; ninja-reverts are a slap in the face, templates are spam, and snark-tags are sloth[citation needed] embodied. We drive people away, because we allow WP:PG to trump pillar four! Madness. Finally, we need copyleft aka no WP:OWN, NPOV aka stick to the Reliable Sources, and the cold hard fact of life that this is WP:NOT anything but an encyclopedia. But that, is the end. We've counted out the rules, all the way to zero. No more.
We counted down the only rules we need to run this place; now, liftoff. Those five rules, alone, are *field-proven* already: they grow the active-editor-count. The current instruction creep is also field-proven, to shrink the active-editor-count. Perhaps we should form the R.E.A. pedia-party, to put forth FiddleFaddle as an ArbCom candidate next time around? Ruled. Enough. Already. Vivalapedia! (with any luck... *this* time around we'll be more careful to strangle policy-growth earlier) — 74.192.84.101 (talk) 09:35, 1 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
But being a WikiCop is so much fun! At work I am a tiny person and always have my ideas slapped down. I cringe in corridors as the mighty walk past. Only our glorious (insert team name here) are recognised. But here, on Wikipedia, I can get my own back on those whose opinions differ frm mine. I an a subtle worm and can push my POV if I'm very careful. I am Wormtongue and the Stasi's child and I am important and a legend in my own Wikitrousers. I will make consensus go against you, my Ip friend. Mwhahahahahaha!
Naah. Nobody really wanted it. All along the way, people made careful, well-reasoned decisions. This is not just AGF, this is what I really think has happened. But when wikipedia started to get big, and started to get crowded, circa 2004/2005, there was a push for control. And as always, controls begat more controls. See also, Milgram experiment and Stanford_prison_experiment. It takes conscious effort to fight off authoritarianism, once it first happens. Anyways, I don't think that admins are bad; in fact, all they ones I've met are good, and trying their damndest to keep this place from falling apart at the seams. Same thing for long-time editors that insist on following WP:PG, and never — I means evah — violating the MOS by putting spaces around the emdash. ;-) Anyways, we have the social tools, and the software technology, to extricate ourselves... the question is, do we have the moral gumption. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 10:13, 1 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Well, some people made well-reasoned decisions, but they were banned. I investigated the infamous dash/hyphen debacle, which forced dashes where 97% of the world uses hyphens, and found how people objected but used the loophole phrase, "as a preference not a rule" which was warped into "Support" and swayed the !vote to force an absolute rule. Afterward, a real-world grammar expert objected to forced dashes, not done by any professional typesetter guide, and was site-banned. When I discovered the balderdash of forced dashes, for "Michelson-Morley experiment" where even those twoscientists spelled their experiment(s) with a hyphen, then I was threatened with a topic-ban. I counted 9 people who objected to the 7 people defending the "dash consensus" but they were frightened away. Small groups of people have warped WP policies. -Wikid77 (talk) 12:19, 1 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hate to rain on some good rants but, oh well. The world is complicated. People are complicated. So, a wiki should be uncomplicated? And its still pretty easy (if you have some small academic training) to write a sentence or a paragraph or whole article, and have it last on wiki. Alanscottwalker (talk) 10:52, 1 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sleepwalking with dreams and nightmares
(edit conflict) Looking at the bigger picture, there are major improvements as "dreams" along with the "nightmares" of related problems, but many editors are sleepwalking through Wikipedia due to the mind-numbing, staggering number of articles, images and templates to update and watch. Yet, we have numerous improvements:
In January 2008, the recursive descent parser allowed templates 2x-3x times larger.
Many quick Lua modules now make edits 3x-4x faster than back in 2012 (but some Lua modules are nightmares of complexity).
The new 59 wp:Template_editors have fixed hundreds of template problems during the past 2 months, which had been lock-protected for years.
New Special:MyFiles shows a user a list of images/media they uploaded.
The wp:WMFLabs file servers now run reports much faster than the old, slow wp:Toolserver computers.
For template updates, the new run-preview option allows previewing changes with any page which uses that template.
The wp:VisualEditor (VE) was hidden after data confirmed many botched files and usage was only 6-per-thousand edits after 4 months.
Policy wp:Consensus now emphasizes "compromise" in building consensus.
People are more aware of wp:Data hoarding, and so can be prepared.
Essay wp:Customize covers more features for users to see personal styles.
However, when some editors formed "their consensus" for new rules, many other Wikipedians were too busy to !vote in swaying the decision, even if those people had an obvious stated interest but were not reminded to respond due to fears of improper wp:CANVASing of other editors. We just need to keep improving the policies, and getting many experienced editors to join the consensus discussions, so that local-consensus groups do not continue to warp the decisions. But at the heart of the problems, there are many issues for the current skeleton crews of editors to handle, and so we need to remind other editors to focus on a variety of issues and join more discussions where their opinions could help reach a more-balanced, realistic outcome. -Wikid77 (talk) 11:15, 1 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, that's a very short cherry picked list all things considered, lets look at that.
The first one is from 2008, 5 years ago so thats hardly a recent improvement.
Lua modules was mostly a good improvement but there are some big downsides as well. First only a few people can program them so we eliminate a lot of editors ability to help out, second many are restricted so only admins can edit them, most of which are technically incapable of doing so, third its a problem for other mirror sites that don't use lua. Or perhaps that's a feature not a bug.
The template editor right was only needed because the Wikipedia culture doesn't trust its editors and the fact that hundreds of problems have been fixed in such a short time shows the project is losing, not the other way around.
most of the next several of inconsequencial in the grand scheme of things.
Labs would be an improvement if common tools were updated to use them. Even the drop down tool under gadgets for edit count (and several others) still hasn't been updated. I was going to fix this months ago but "I cannot be trusted" to do so and I also partially wanted to see how long it would take those that are trusted to actually fix it....still waiting.
some other things not on your list are; Visual editor ( a complete disaster in every possible way); abusive admins who are allowed to drag the project down unmolested; Arbcom and Arb enforcement are runaway venues that do more harm to the project than they help; Bots like ProcseeBot blocking thousands of IP's that have never even edited simply to ensure they can't edit; the well known RFA nightmare process and lots more.
There are so many areas that need to be addressed it staggers the mind. Yet the majority just turns their head and walks away or claims these problems don't exist. 108.45.104.69 (talk) 12:43, 1 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Technical improvements allow those who like to play with software to play with software.
Your absolutely right there. Just try adding an infobox to an article that falls under WikiProject novels or add a WikiProject United States banner to a USRoads "owned" article. You'll quickly get a barrage of hate mail describing in great detail just how you have violated some made up, project enforced policy. A policy that the projects do not have the power to create or enforce BTW but no one here seems to have the morale courage or desire to stop....and still no comment from Jimbo. Which doesn't really surprise me since this problem doesn't deal with the social elite. 108.45.104.69 (talk) 18:25, 1 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Which brings me back to my original post here:
"Does it never amaze you that we have used your concept and created red tape here of a depth and complexity that would never have been envisaged by even the most totalitarian regime? We have done it on purpose and by consensus. We have created what is probably the world's most complicated ants nest.
We must deserve this because we have done it ourselves, and we seek, sometimes, to create ever more layers of complexity and ever more rules for the unwary to trip over.
Am I the only person who is amazed at all of this? Perhaps this is one of those perennial questions!"
Well then that's part of the problem then isn't it Neil. Too many people who advocate for all these unnecessary policies, procedures and red tape. Too many vested editors, trying to keep things unnnecessily complicated so new users can't contribute without spending significant time learning all of our editing standards. Too many layers of hierarchy designed to elevate some users to demi god status while keeping others down. That is not a good system and your sarcastic comment does not reflect well on you or the community neil. 108.45.104.69 (talk) 22:39, 1 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It wasn't a sarcastic comment, it was a truthful answer about why all your calls for revolution aren't getting much response. We have developed more policies and procedures over time because, in many cases, they lead to higher quality and more readable articles. Take for example WP:MEDRS requirements which preclude many new (and veteran) users from contributing to medical articles because the sourcing requirements aren't easy to grasp. But having such strict and defined requirements means content in medical articles is of a very high standard (in theory) which benefits people who use Wikipedia the most - the readers. --NeilNtalk to me00:53, 2 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, you hit the nail on the head there with "theory". Wikipedia in theory shouldn't work, in practice it does though. When we make it so restrictive to edit that few can do it, then few will and that will almost always lead to a handful of entrenched editors pushing their POV. Look at the Salem witch project, they can hardly make an edit without some conservative christian threatening to block them or delete the article. Same thing goes for other areas. The Mohammed article has multiple restrictions, Bradley manning and the list goes on, largely because one overzealous group didn't want to play nice. It was their way or the highway. So the way we fix that is we lock the article down and ban everybody. But those are only the extreme cases and most never get to that because some entrenched POV editor or admin makes sure that they run off anyone who edits "their" article. But no one does anything and some like you just stand by and let it happen. That is why people don't use Wikipedia, why our numbers are declining, backlogs are growing and the project deteriorating. Because their aren't enough neutral editors who are willing to stand up to make things better for the project and not necessarily for their POV. We neutral members get run out of town as heretics and lunatics. How dare we question the order and hierarchy of things. 108.45.104.69 (talk) 01:11, 2 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The wp:URBLP unreferenced backlog has been reduced, from the November 1,387 pages, by over 750 pages, at a rate to fall below 500 by mid-December 2013. About one-third of pages remain in last month's category:
Anyone have any opinions about a "Signpost" type newsletter for distribution across the WF entities?
I hope that title kind of indicates the idea here, but for clarification I personally think it might help the development of some of the other WF entities, like WikiQuote, WikiVoyage, WikiSource, and others, if we could maybe get together a newsletter, similar to the Signpost, and maybe possibly distributed as a supplement to the Signpost among specifically wikipedia editors, and a similar mailing list for those who might watch talk pages of other entities more regularly, which might provide information on all those entities. I would think, possibly, that such might function best as a monthly entity or supplement to the Signpost, considering that those other entities might not have quite the level of activity, or visibility, or immediacy, as wikipedia itself. What do the rest of you watching this page think, and would any of you maybe be willing to provide a regular "article" on any of those other entities you may personally edit regularly? John Carter (talk) 22:54, 1 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Like—Smurfs at last ... and Fiddle Faddle's 
