Talk:Periplus of the Erythraean Sea

Muziris

The location of Muziris is not the main subject here. That should be left to the article on Muziris. While its whereabouts are still matter to differences in opinion, the stronger opinion is somewhere near to Kodungalloor. Being a matter of confusion, its better to avoid that discussion in this article. Hence dropping the lines about the location of Muziris.NMKuttiady (talk) 10:43, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Could Rhapta have been in modern-day Mozambique?

Does anyone have access to a copy of the "Periplus"? - either in the original Greek or in translation?

Carl Peters implies that it states that Rhapta lay, not at the mouth of its river, but some distance upstream, adding that this requirement would fit Quelimane quite well. But is he quoting the "Periplus" correctly?

Incidentally, remembering the successful Phoenician circumnavigation of Africa in 600 BC, it is by no means impossible that subsequent travellers would have ventured as far as the mouth of the Zambesi (or even beyond) - at the time when the "Periplus" was being compiled. I used to work in the Zimbabwean Meteorological Office, and can confirm that alternations in the coastal wind pattern did facilitate two-way journeys there. --DLMcN (talk) 17:58, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Reply

Dear David: Please note that I am travelling at the moment and having touble getting decent internet access, and won't be able to access my books and notes until after I return home later this month. I have three different English translations of the Periplus at home - of which, perhaps the most trustworthy one is that by Lionel Casson (based on an ealier one) which contains detailed notes as well as the Greek original. I will compare the accounts of Raphta after I get home and report back.

That said, perhaps you could start by checking out William H. Schoff's translation which has been digitalised and is online at: [1].

I think your supposition that other travellers, after the original Phoenician circumnavigation of Africa c. 600 BCE, probably sailed down the east coast of Africa is almost beyond question. There is evidence for this in both Western Classical and Chinese literature. I can give you more details on this if you wish, after I return home. Please remind me, though for, as I mentioned above, I am getting very forgetful (and also I will be very busy and distracted after I return). All best wishes, John Hill (talk) 11:16, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Many thanks, John, for your helpful reply.

My interest stems from my involvement in the controversy surrounding Ancient Zimbabwe (and its principal monument Great Zimbabwe) ... i.e., I am wondering if knowledge of the gold riches there, might actually date back a couple of thousand years. The earliest known reference to gold deposits in that (approximate) area is, I think, by Cosmas Indicopleustes of Alexandria in the sixth century AD.--DLMcN (talk) 18:36, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

File:Nahapana.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

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Chain of Aphrodite

The Erythrian or Red Sea ports on the coast of Egypt starting with Mursilis and running through Bernice were at the time the Periplus of the Erythrian Sea was written known as the chain of Aphrodite. See http://www.amazon.com/Atlas-Ancient-Egypt-Cultural/dp/0871963345 Each port was an oasis with tall strong trees called Terabithim by the Phoenicians, suitable for use as masts. Between the port of Philidelphia (Pi Ha Hiroth in Egyptian, modern Quasir, Biblical Elim) and Elat at the head of the Gulf of Aqaba there was a booming trade from the 12th dynasty onward bringing mortuary goods to the Temple of Karnak across the sea from Egypts 18th dynasty capital at Thebes where Hatshepsets fleet delivered the linen cloth from Byblos, bitumen and natron from the dead sea coming down the wadi arabah and the , Frankincense, and Myhr traveling up the mountains and along the coast from the bab al mandab strait between Ethi Ophir and punt (Ethiopia and Yemen) to mummify the dead in return for Nub (gold) from Nubia taken at Berbnice.Metaphysical Engineering (talk) 02:04, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

The Land of Punt is believed to have been centered in the Horn region and the Red Sea coast of Sudan, partly because the main incense producing (not just incense exporting) area is centered in northeastern Somalia [2]. Some recent oxygen isotopic analysis also suggests that Eritrea and Ethiopia constitute the particular parts of Punt where an Ancient Egyptian expedition brought back some baboons from as gifts [3]. Middayexpress (talk) 12:13, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Both Frankincense from Interior Yemen and Myhr from interior Somalia were brought to the coasts at Musa north of the the straits according to the Periplus 21. Beyond these places, in a bay at the foot of the left side of this gulf, there is a place by the shore called Muza, a market-town established by law, distant altogether from Berenice for those sailing southward, about twelve thousand stadia. I measured the distance on Google Maps http://depts.washington.edu/silkroad/texts/periplus/map/periplus_map.html. The last time I was there I noted the mountains in the area were rich with baboons. The area known as Ophone was the base of the trade on the horn

http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA387&lpg=PA387&dq=mussel+Harbour+red+sea+antiquity+modern&sig=rtcCK5_Gqakgq69pPTdOCeE_u3w&ei=ilCDU9G1O-HIsAToxYGIBg&id=SyhOAAAAcAAJ&ots=jInlZp0Wty&output=text Gives the Greek and Roman geography and there are distances given from Myos Hormos to locate Bernice and from Bernice to locate Musa. The latitude of ltlyos-Hormos is fixed by Bruce, D'Anville, &c., at 27° N.(27°N 34°E) Its situation is determined by a cluster of islands, called Jojfateen by modern navigators, of which the three largest lie opposite to an indcnture of the Aegyptian coast.Metaphysical Engineering (talk) 14:51, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

There is similar geology, flora and fauna on both sides of the Red Sea. However, the oxygen isotopic profiles of the particular baboon specimens that the Ancient Egyptian expedition brought back with it to Egypt apparently most closely matches those of baboons found in present-day Eritrea and Ethiopia. This of course does not necessarily imply that Punt was restricted to this region, just as a tourist taking back home a plant particular to the Rome area doesn't imply that Italy is restricted to Rome alone. It does, though, help pinpoint the specific provenance of those particular Puntite gifts. Regarding ancient Muza, it is perhaps the modern Mocha. Opone was also indeed of the main trade centers in the Horn. Additionally, Damo appears to correspond with the Periplus' "Market and Cape of Spices". Middayexpress (talk) 16:29, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

User:Metaphysical Engineering, could you perhaps fix the trade center positions in the Periplus map [4]? Several of them appear to be wrong: Sarapion is in Mogadishu, Avalites in Zeila, Malao in Berbera, Mosylon in Bosaso, Mundus in Heis, and Nicon is possibly in Barawa. Middayexpress (talk) 17:34, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

I'd be happy to work on it with others, but I'm unsure of Wikipedia's policies. I can find references in the Periplus to locate ports by latitude and longitude and distances between ports by stadia. I can also find several different definitions of stadia all of which agree as to the length of a degree as 75 Roman Miles but would count the number of stadia differently according to whether they were Greek, Roman, Persian, Phoenician or Egyptian.This is a .pdf with a compilation of studies by various authors which I just skimmed but looks really good. www.mfa.gr/missionsabroad/.../Arabia_Greece_and_Byzantium_en.pdf There is a Google book online which discusses the consensus of opinion on their location in Greek and Roman times. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0064:entry=muza-geo I'd be happy to provide more sources for locations. This is a list that looks useful but that I haven't checked. http://www.ancientportsantiques.com/the-catalogue/red-sea-gulf/. As for this list let me see what I can find given for location in the Periplus. Sarapion is in Mogadishu, Avalites in Zeila, Malao in Berbera, Mosylon in Bosaso, Mundus in Heis, and Nicon is possibly in Barawa. Metaphysical Engineering (talk) 20:03, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Sarapion

15. Beyond Opone, the shore trending more toward the south, first there are the small and great bluffs of Azania; this coast is destitute of harbors, but there are places where ships can lie at anchor, the shore being abrupt; and this course is of six days, the direction being south-west. Then come the small and great beach for another six days' course and after that in order, the Courses of Azania, the first being called Sarapion and the next Nicon; and after that several rivers and other anchorages, one after the other, separately a rest and a run for each day, seven in all, until the Pyralax islands and what is called the channel; beyond which, a little to the south of south-west, after two courses of a day and night along the Ausanitic coast, is the island Menuthias, about three hundred stadia from the mainland, low and and wooded, in which there are rivers and many kinds of birds and the mountain-tortoise. There are no wild beasts except the crocodiles; but there they do not attack men. In this place there are sewed boats, and canoes hollowed from single logs, which they use for fishing and catching tortoise. In this island they also catch them in a peculiar wav, in wicker baskets, which they fasten across the channel-opening between the breakers. Looks like 12 days sail to Sarapion. If we allow about 3 knots /Hr close to 1 Georaphic degree per day, 75 Roman miles/Day so 12 degrees south west is Mogadishu. Metaphysical Engineering (talk) 20:39, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Avalites

4. Below Ptolemais of the Hunts, at a distance of about three thousand stadia, there is Adulis, ...5. And about eight hundred stadia beyond there is another very deep bay,...7. From this place the Arabian Gulf trends toward the east and becomes narrowest just before the Gulf of Avalites. After about four thousand stadia, for those sailing eastward along the same coast, there are other Berber market-towns, known as the 'far-side' ports; lying at intervals one after the other, without harbors but having roadsteads where ships can anchor and lie in good weather. The first is called Avalites; to this place the voyage from Arabia to the far-side coast is the shortest. Here there is a small market-town called Avalites, which must be reached by boats and rafts. There are imported into this place, flint glass, assorted; juice of sour grapes from Diospolis; dressed cloth, assorted, made for the Berbers; wheat, wine, and a little tin. There are exported from the same place, and sometimes by the Berbers themselves crossing on rafts to Ocelis and Muza on the opposite shore, spices, a little ivory, tortoise-shell, and a very little myrrh, but better than the rest. And the Berbers who live in the place are very unruly. This passage locates Avalites opposite Musa just before the Gulf of Aden known then as the gulf of Avalites, making the Red Sea run from what is now Port Sudan with the deep bay of Adulis 100 miles south of it about 3800-4000 stadia 475-500 mi to Avalites, modern Assab Metaphysical Engineering (talk) 21:10, 26 May 2014 (UTC)