Talk:Periplus of the Erythraean Sea

Muziris

The location of Muziris is not the main subject here. That should be left to the article on Muziris. While its whereabouts are still matter to differences in opinion, the stronger opinion is somewhere near to Kodungalloor. Being a matter of confusion, its better to avoid that discussion in this article. Hence dropping the lines about the location of Muziris.NMKuttiady (talk) 10:43, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Could Rhapta have been in modern-day Mozambique?

Does anyone have access to a copy of the "Periplus"? - either in the original Greek or in translation?

Carl Peters implies that it states that Rhapta lay, not at the mouth of its river, but some distance upstream, adding that this requirement would fit Quelimane quite well. But is he quoting the "Periplus" correctly?

Incidentally, remembering the successful Phoenician circumnavigation of Africa in 600 BC, it is by no means impossible that subsequent travellers would have ventured as far as the mouth of the Zambesi (or even beyond) - at the time when the "Periplus" was being compiled. I used to work in the Zimbabwean Meteorological Office, and can confirm that alternations in the coastal wind pattern did facilitate two-way journeys there. --DLMcN (talk) 17:58, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Reply

Dear David: Please note that I am travelling at the moment and having touble getting decent internet access, and won't be able to access my books and notes until after I return home later this month. I have three different English translations of the Periplus at home - of which, perhaps the most trustworthy one is that by Lionel Casson (based on an ealier one) which contains detailed notes as well as the Greek original. I will compare the accounts of Raphta after I get home and report back.

That said, perhaps you could start by checking out William H. Schoff's translation which has been digitalised and is online at: [1].

I think your supposition that other travellers, after the original Phoenician circumnavigation of Africa c. 600 BCE, probably sailed down the east coast of Africa is almost beyond question. There is evidence for this in both Western Classical and Chinese literature. I can give you more details on this if you wish, after I return home. Please remind me, though for, as I mentioned above, I am getting very forgetful (and also I will be very busy and distracted after I return). All best wishes, John Hill (talk) 11:16, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Many thanks, John, for your helpful reply.

My interest stems from my involvement in the controversy surrounding Ancient Zimbabwe (and its principal monument Great Zimbabwe) ... i.e., I am wondering if knowledge of the gold riches there, might actually date back a couple of thousand years. The earliest known reference to gold deposits in that (approximate) area is, I think, by Cosmas Indicopleustes of Alexandria in the sixth century AD.--DLMcN (talk) 18:36, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

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Chain of Aphrodite

The Erythrian or Red Sea ports on the coast of Egypt starting with Mursilis and running through Bernice were at the time the Periplus of the Erythrian Sea was written known as the chain of Aphrodite. See http://www.amazon.com/Atlas-Ancient-Egypt-Cultural/dp/0871963345 Each port was an oasis with tall strong trees called Terabithim by the Phoenicians, suitable for use as masts. Between the port of Philidelphia (Pi Ha Hiroth in Egyptian, modern Quasir, Biblical Elim) and Elat at the head of the Gulf of Aqaba there was a booming trade from the 12th dynasty onward bringing mortuary goods to the Temple of Karnak across the sea from Egypts 18th dynasty capital at Thebes where Hatshepsets fleet delivered the linen cloth from Byblos, bitumen and natron from the dead sea coming down the wadi arabah and the , Frankincense, and Myhr traveling up the mountains and along the coast from the bab al mandab strait between Ethi Ophir and punt (Ethiopia and Yemen) to mummify the dead in return for Nub (gold) from Nubia taken at Berbnice.Metaphysical Engineering (talk) 02:04, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

The Land of Punt is believed to have been centered in the Horn region and the Red Sea coast of Sudan, partly because the main incense producing (not just incense exporting) area is centered in northeastern Somalia [2]. Some recent oxygen isotopic analysis also suggests that Eritrea and Ethiopia constitute the particular parts of Punt where an Ancient Egyptian expedition brought back some baboons from as gifts [3]. Middayexpress (talk) 12:13, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Both Frankincense from Interior Yemen and Myhr from interior Somalia were brought to the coasts at Musa north of the the straits according to the Periplus 21. Beyond these places, in a bay at the foot of the left side of this gulf, there is a place by the shore called Muza, a market-town established by law, distant altogether from Berenice for those sailing southward, about twelve thousand stadia. I measured the distance on Google Maps http://depts.washington.edu/silkroad/texts/periplus/map/periplus_map.html. The last time I was there I noted the mountains in the area were rich with baboons. The area known as Ophone was the base of the trade on the horn

http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA387&lpg=PA387&dq=mussel+Harbour+red+sea+antiquity+modern&sig=rtcCK5_Gqakgq69pPTdOCeE_u3w&ei=ilCDU9G1O-HIsAToxYGIBg&id=SyhOAAAAcAAJ&ots=jInlZp0Wty&output=text Gives the Greek and Roman geography and there are distances given from Myos Hormos to locate Bernice and from Bernice to locate Musa. The latitude of ltlyos-Hormos is fixed by Bruce, D'Anville, &c., at 27° N.(27°N 34°E) Its situation is determined by a cluster of islands, called Jojfateen by modern navigators, of which the three largest lie opposite to an indcnture of the Aegyptian coast.Metaphysical Engineering (talk) 14:51, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

There is similar geology, flora and fauna on both sides of the Red Sea. However, the oxygen isotopic profiles of the particular baboon specimens that the Ancient Egyptian expedition brought back with it to Egypt apparently most closely matches those of baboons found in present-day Eritrea and Ethiopia. This of course does not necessarily imply that Punt was restricted to this region, just as a tourist taking back home a plant particular to the Rome area doesn't imply that Italy is restricted to Rome alone. It does, though, help pinpoint the specific provenance of those particular Puntite gifts. Regarding ancient Muza, it is perhaps the modern Mocha. Opone was also indeed of the main trade centers in the Horn. Additionally, Damo appears to correspond with the Periplus' "Market and Cape of Spices". Middayexpress (talk) 16:29, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

User:Metaphysical Engineering, could you perhaps fix the trade center positions in the Periplus map [4]? Several of them appear to be wrong: Sarapion is in Mogadishu, Avalites in Zeila, Malao in Berbera, Mosylon in Bosaso, Mundus in Heis, and Nicon is possibly in Barawa. Middayexpress (talk) 17:34, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

I'd be happy to work on it with others, but I'm unsure of Wikipedia's policies. I can find references in the Periplus to locate ports by latitude and longitude and distances between ports by stadia. I can also find several different definitions of stadia all of which agree as to the length of a degree as 75 Roman Miles but would count the number of stadia differently according to whether they were Greek, Roman, Persian, Phoenician or Egyptian.This is a .pdf with a compilation of studies by various authors which I just skimmed but looks really good. www.mfa.gr/missionsabroad/.../Arabia_Greece_and_Byzantium_en.pdf There is a Google book online which discusses the consensus of opinion on their location in Greek and Roman times. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0064:entry=muza-geo I'd be happy to provide more sources for locations. This is a list that looks useful but that I haven't checked. http://www.ancientportsantiques.com/the-catalogue/red-sea-gulf/. As for this list let me see what I can find given for location in the Periplus. Sarapion is in Mogadishu, Avalites in Zeila, Malao in Berbera, Mosylon in Bosaso, Mundus in Heis, and Nicon is possibly in Barawa. Metaphysical Engineering (talk) 20:03, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks User:Metaphysical Engineering. The geographical coordinates for each of the enumerated sites can be found at the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency [5]. Please note that there have been actual archaeological excavations in Somalia which have substantiated the modern locations of a number of these ancient trade centers. For instance, it was a joint expedition in the late 1970s led by Neville Chittick which confirmed that Damo is the likely "Market and Cape of Spices". The archaeologists found Roman pottery, old coins, and other historical artefacts at the site. The Alula Lagoon they visited likewise appears to correspond with the Periplus' "large laurel-grove called Acannae". Middayexpress (talk) 15:27, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Where are you getting these numbers from? I have several sources for the cites mentioned above by Midday that say they are that city or near it and not where you belive they are or could possibly have been. AcidSnow (talk) 00:52, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

@Middayexpress, The sites in Somalia are not a match with the quotes from the Periplus of the Erythrian Sea. I have no doubt there were sites in Somalia visited by all of the same people, its just they weren't those sites with those descriptions which give locations by degree and distance between locations by days sail. Seventies expeditions might well have found sites in Somalia where spices were traded but you should also look at the work done in the Eighties on the Arabian peninsula. I photographed some of the interior Arabian sites along the border of Yemen in the nineties, since then there has been a lot of excavation done on the Red Sea sites, and of course it helps to have Google Maps which will allow you to input Latitude and longitude as well as distance online.@AcidSnow If you correlate your sources with the Periplus as above, I can commentMetaphysical Engineering (talk) 19:23, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

@MiddayexpressI followed your link to Neville Chittick it appears his list of sites is a different list than what you asked me to look at with the exception of Malao and Mosylon, Sarapion is in Mogadishu and Opone is at the eastern end of Somalia.

   Qandala
   Botiala
   Essina
   Malao
   Opone
   Mosylon
   Heis
   Hannassa
   Sarapion
   Gondershe
   Somali maritime history Metaphysical Engineering (talk) 19:29, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

@AcidSnowThe numbers come from this online version of the Periplus of the Erythrian Sea http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/periplus.asp

Avalites is interior to the bab al mandab in what we call the Red Sea 7. From this place the Arabian Gulf trends toward the east and becomes narrowest just before the Gulf of Avalites. After about four thousand stadia, for those sailing eastward along the same coast, there are other Berber market-towns, known as the 'far-side' ports; lying at intervals one after the other, without harbors but having roadsteads where ships can anchor and lie in good weather. The first is called Avalites; to this place the voyage from Arabia to the far-side coast is the shortest. Here there is a small market-town called Avalites, which must be reached by boats and rafts. There are imported into this place, flint glass, assorted; juice of sour grapes from Diospolis; dressed cloth, assorted, made for the Berbers; wheat, wine, and a little tin. There are exported from the same place, and sometimes by the Berbers themselves crossing on rafts to Ocelis and Muza on the opposite shore, spices, a little ivory, tortoise-shell, and a very little myrrh, but better than the rest. And the Berbers who live in the place are very unruly.

Malo is eight hundred stadia or 100 miles further south which doesn't get you to Somalia. You could argue its Djbuti but then the anchorage wouldn't be in an open roadstead or sheltered by a spit running out from the east.https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=790950644261992&set=a.790950734261983.1073741826.186173644739698&type=1&theaterMetaphysical Engineering (talk) 20:09, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

8. After Avalites there is another market-town, better than this, called Malao, distant a sail of about eight hundred stadia. The anchorage is an open roadstead, sheltered by a spit running out from the east. Here the natives are more peaceable. There are imported into this place the things already mentioned, and many tunics, cloaks from Arsinoe, dressed and dyed; drinking-cups, sheets of soft copper in small quantity, iron, and gold and silver coin, not much. There are exported from these places myrrh, a little frankincense, (that known as far-side), the harder cinnamon, duaca, Indian copal and macir, which are imported into Arabia; and slaves, but rarely.

9. Two days' sail, or three, beyond Malao is the market-town of Mundus, where the ships lie at anchor more safely behind a projecting island close to the shore. There are imported into this place the things previously set forth, and from it likewise are exported the merchandise already stated, and the incense called mocrotu. And the traders living here are more quarrelsome.

10. Beyond Mundus, sailing toward the east, after another two days' sail, or three, you reach Mosyllum, on a beach, with a bad anchorage. There are imported here the same things already mentioned, also silver plate, a very little iron, and glass. There are shipped from the place a great quantity of cinnamon, (so that this market-town requires ships of larger size), and fragrant gums, spices, a little tortoise shell, and mocrotu, (poorer, than that of Mundus), frankincense, (the far-side), ivory and myrrh in small quantities.

11. Sailing along the coast beyond Mosyllum, after a two days' course you come to the so-called Little Nile River, and a fine spring, and a small laurel-grove, and Cape Elephant. Then the shore recedes into a bay, and has a river, called Elephant, and a large laurel-grove called Acannae; where alone is produced the far-side frankincense, in great quantity and of the best grade.

12. Beyond this place, the coast trending toward the south, there is the Market and Cape of Spices, an abrupt promontory, at the very end of the Berber coast toward the east. The anchorage is dangerous at times from the ground-swell, because the place is exposed to the north. A sign of an approaching storm which is peculiar to the place, is that the deep water becomes more turbid and changes its color. When this happens they all run to a large promontory called Tabae, which offers safe shelter. There are imported into this market town the things already mentioned; and there are produced in it cinnamon (and its different varieties, gizir, asypha, areho, iriagia, and moto) and frankincense.

13. Beyond Tabae, after four hundred stadia, there is the village of Pano. And then, after sailing four hundred stadia along a promontory, toward which place the current also draws you, there is another market-town called Opone, into which the same things are imported as those already mentioned, and in it the greatest quantity of cinnamon is produced, (the arebo and moto), ind slaves of the better sort, which are brought to Egypt in increasing numbers; and a great quantity of tortoiseshell, better than that found elsewhere.

14. The voyage to all these farside market-towns is made from Egypt about the month of July, that is Epiphi. And ships are also customarily fitted out from the places across this sea, from Ariaca and Barygaza, bringing to these far-side market-towns the products of their own places; wheat, rice, clarified butter, sesame oil, cotton cloth, (the monache and the sagmatogene), and girdles, and honey from the reed called sacchari. Some make the voyage especially to these market-towns, and others exchange their cargoes while sailing along the coast. This country is not subject to a King, but each market-town is ruled by its separate chief.

15. Beyond Opone, the shore trending more toward the south, first there are the small and great bluffs of Azania; this coast is destitute of harbors, but there are places where ships can lie at anchor, the shore being abrupt; and this course is of six days, the direction being south-west. Then come the small and great beach for another six days' course and after that in order, the Courses of Azania, the first being called Sarapion and the next Nicon; and after that several rivers and other anchorages, one after the other, separately a rest and a run for each day, seven in all, until the Pyralax islands and what is called the channel; beyond which, a little to the south of south-west, after two courses of a day and night along the Ausanitic coast, is the island Menuthias, about three hundred stadia from the mainland, low and and wooded, in which there are rivers and many kinds of birds and the mountain-tortoise. There are no wild beasts except the crocodiles; but there they do not attack men. In this place there are sewed boats, and canoes hollowed from single logs, which they use for fishing and catching tortoise. In this island they also catch them in a peculiar wav, in wicker baskets, which they fasten across the channel-opening between the breakers.

16. Two days' sail beyond, there lies the very last market-town of the continent of Azania, which is called Rhapta; which has its name from the sewed boats (rhapton ploiarion) already mentioned; in which there is ivory in great quantity, and tortoise-shell. Along this coast live men of piratical habits, very great in stature, and under separate chiefs for each place. The Mapharitic chief governs it under some ancient right that subjects it to the sovereignty of the state that is become first in Arabia. And the people of Muza now hold it under his authority, and send thither many large ships; using Arab captains and agents, who are familiar with the natives and intermarry with them, and who know the whole coast and understand the language.

17. There are imported into these markets the lances made at Muza especially for this trade, and hatchets and daggers and awls, and various kinds of glass; and at some places a little wine, and wheat, not for trade, but to serve for getting the good-will of the savages. There are exported from these places a great quantity of ivory, but inferior to that of Adulis, and rhinoceros-horn and tortoise-shell (which is in best demand after that from India), and a little palm-oil.

18. And these markets of Azania are the very last of the continent that stretches down on the right hand from Berenice; for beyong these places the unexplored ocean curves around toward the west, and running along by the regions to the south of Aethiopia and Libya and Africa, it mingles with the western sea.

Sarapion

15. Beyond Opone, the shore trending more toward the south, first there are the small and great bluffs of Azania; this coast is destitute of harbors, but there are places where ships can lie at anchor, the shore being abrupt; and this course is of six days, the direction being south-west. Then come the small and great beach for another six days' course and after that in order, the Courses of Azania, the first being called Sarapion and the next Nicon; and after that several rivers and other anchorages, one after the other, separately a rest and a run for each day, seven in all, until the Pyralax islands and what is called the channel; beyond which, a little to the south of south-west, after two courses of a day and night along the Ausanitic coast, is the island Menuthias, about three hundred stadia from the mainland, low and and wooded, in which there are rivers and many kinds of birds and the mountain-tortoise. There are no wild beasts except the crocodiles; but there they do not attack men. In this place there are sewed boats, and canoes hollowed from single logs, which they use for fishing and catching tortoise. In this island they also catch them in a peculiar wav, in wicker baskets, which they fasten across the channel-opening between the breakers. Looks like 12 days sail to Sarapion. If we allow about 3 knots /Hr close to 1 Georaphic degree per day, 75 Roman miles/Day so 12 degrees south west is Mogadishu. Metaphysical Engineering (talk) 20:39, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Avalites

4. Below Ptolemais of the Hunts, at a distance of about three thousand stadia, there is Adulis, ...5. And about eight hundred stadia beyond there is another very deep bay,...7. From this place the Arabian Gulf trends toward the east and becomes narrowest just before the Gulf of Avalites. After about four thousand stadia, for those sailing eastward along the same coast, there are other Berber market-towns, known as the 'far-side' ports; lying at intervals one after the other, without harbors but having roadsteads where ships can anchor and lie in good weather. The first is called Avalites; to this place the voyage from Arabia to the far-side coast is the shortest. Here there is a small market-town called Avalites, which must be reached by boats and rafts. There are imported into this place, flint glass, assorted; juice of sour grapes from Diospolis; dressed cloth, assorted, made for the Berbers; wheat, wine, and a little tin. There are exported from the same place, and sometimes by the Berbers themselves crossing on rafts to Ocelis and Muza on the opposite shore, spices, a little ivory, tortoise-shell, and a very little myrrh, but better than the rest. And the Berbers who live in the place are very unruly. This passage locates Avalites opposite Musa just before the Gulf of Aden known then as the gulf of Avalites, making the Red Sea run from what is now Port Sudan with the deep bay of Adulis 100 miles south of it about 3800-4000 stadia 475-500 mi to Avalites, modern Assab Metaphysical Engineering (talk) 21:10, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Malao

8. After Avalites there is another market-town, better than this, called Malao, distant a sail of about eight hundred stadia.(100 miles) The anchorage is an open roadstead, sheltered by a spit running out from the east.Avaliteds to Malo may have been slower going because of currents or dangers to navigation "Bab-el-Mandeb" means "Gateway of anguish", or "Gateway of tears"; the strait derives its name from the dangers attending its navigation," Here the natives are more peaceable. There are imported into this place the things already mentioned, and many tunics, cloaks from Arsinoe, dressed and dyed; drinking-cups, sheets of soft copper in small quantity, iron, and gold and silver coin, not much. There are exported from these places myrrh, a little frankincense, (that known as far-side), the harder cinnamon, duaca, Indian copal and macir, which are imported into Arabia; and slaves, but rarely. Malo would be off the Arabian coast at Wadi Harim 100 miles west of Aden

Mundus

9. Two days' sail, or three,(140-210 miles) beyond Malao is the market-town of Mundus, where the ships lie at anchor more safely behind a projecting island close to the shore. There are imported into this place the things previously set forth, and from it likewise are exported the merchandise already stated, and the incense called mocrotu. And the traders living here are more quarrelsome. I'm going to identify Mundus as Aden its 100 miles east of Wadi Harim rather than 140 or 210 but just west of Aden there is an island close to shore, now with a causeway connecting it to shore "where the ships lie at anchor more safely behind a projecting island close to the shore."

Mosyllum

10. Beyond Mundus, sailing toward the east, after another two days' sail, or three,(140-210 miles you reach Mosyllum, on a beach, with a bad anchorage. There are imported here the same things already mentioned, also silver plate, a very little iron, and glass. There are shipped from the place a great quantity of cinnamon, (so that this market-town requires ships of larger size), and fragrant gums, spices, a little tortoise shell, and mocrotu, (poorer, than that of Mundus), frankincense, (the far-side), ivory and myrrh in small quantities.I'd identify this as Balhaf, "a beach with a bad anchorage" now improved by three short stone jetties to make a harbor, about 225 mi East of Aden on the gulf of Aden Metaphysical Engineering (talk) 23:10, 26 May 2014 (UTC)