Talk:War in Donbas

DNR claim of the real number of Ukraine army deaths

Seems like the DNR, through its Twitter account, is presenting a supposed internal document from the Ukrainian Security Service from July 19, which claims that the real losses on the Ukrainian side are 1600 KIA and 4723 WIA. I found an English translation here. Lots of people are being quite skeptical about it, even on their side. This is obviously not something that would be a verified source by Wikipedia's standards. However, what is verified and perhaps notable is that the official DNR press agency is making this claim. Should it therefore be mentioned? Esn (talk) 18:31, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Neither Twitter posts nor blog posts are reliable sources. It would need to be found in secondary reliable sources, such as a newspaper or whatever. RGloucester — ☎ 18:37, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Of course it's not a verifiable source. However, if dnrpress is the official Twitter account for the DNR, then we can verifiably say that this is an official DNR claim, without judging on the veracity of the actual claim. Although... hmm. Perhaps WP:SELFSOURCE applies here. Esn (talk) 18:49, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

It is possible that this is "self-serving", and also, it is a claim about a "third party", meaning that WP:SELFSOURCE doesn't apply. I'd prefer if one could find a secondary source, even if it is an obviously biased one. RGloucester — ☎ 18:54, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

I meant that WP:SELFSOURCE applies in the sense that it couldn't be mentioned because of the reasons you stated. If you're talking about obviously biased secondary sources, though, would this count? Esn (talk) 19:12, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

• I don't know. I have to say that I find that pretty questionable. I'd wait and see what others say. RGloucester — ☎ 19:16, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Something just crossed my mind. Has it actually been confirmed anywhere that https://twitter.com/dnrpress/ is officially affiliated with the Donetsk Republic? I'd like to clear up the actual status of that account, if possible, and who's responsible for it. Esn (talk) 22:08, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

This Slate article claims that dnrpress is the "official Twitter account" of the Donetsk People's Republic". So does this RIA Novosti article. Since both pro-NATO and pro-Russia news sources seem to say that it is official, would it make sense to treat all statements made on that account as being official statements of the Donetsk Republic? Esn (talk) 16:01, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

If the claims are notable, then they will be mentioned by reliable sources such as non-Russian newspapers. That would provide a reliable source for the terrorists making the claims. If non-Russian newspapers ignore the claims, then the claims cannot be notable, so there is no justification for mentioning them on Wikipedia.--Toddy1 (talk) 16:24, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Toddy1 makes two very interesting points.

1. Only non-Russian newspapers can be reliable sources.

2. Notability can be determined only by non-Russian sources.

Are those views supported by the majority of editors here? Esn (talk) 16:42, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

• If they don't appear in non-Russian sources, we have to take them with a grain of salt. If they had credibility, secondary sources from outside Russia would pick them up. It isn't really that hard to figure out, given the information war that is now occurring. RGloucester — ☎ 16:46, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Alright. Does that also apply if they only appear in Ukrainian sources? Esn (talk) 16:53, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Most Ukrainian newspapers are just as reliable for news events in Ukraine as most English ones are for news events in England.--Toddy1 (talk) 17:01, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

The English press has been shown to be consistently biased when issues of territorial integrity are at stake: [1] [2]. As would any country's, probably. Esn (talk) 17:22, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

I'd priviledge both non-Russian and non-Ukrainian sources for this matter, but that's my personal opinion. Both sides are obviously not as independent as we'd wish they'd be. But they have been used, given that their information is checked and beyond any reasonable doubt.Mondolkiri1 (talk) 18:16, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Going back to my original question, though, would it make sense to treat statements coming from the dnrpress Twitter account as being official statements from the Donetsk Republic, given that media sources from both sides seem to accept that it is indeed their official mouthpiece? Please note I am not asking whether it can be used as a "reliable source". I am asking if what is said there can be stated to be the official position of the DNR. Esn (talk) 00:47, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

I would like to repeat my question, since no one has commented. Would it make sense to treat statements coming from the dnrpress Twitter account as being official statements from the Donetsk Republic, given that media sources from both sides seem to accept that it is indeed their official mouthpiece? WP:SELFSOURCE would likely apply. Esn (talk) 10:36, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

According to Ukrainian source 3,500 soilders are missing in action near border with Russia 94.45.129.180 (talk) 14:43, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Igor Girkin (Strelkov) claims 7,401 killed or injured on Ukrainian side

The original post is here, posted July 29, claiming to list losses on the Ukrainian side from May 2 to July 27. The only English-language news outlet to pick it up so far seems to be this one. Various Russian ones have picked it up (i.e. [3], [4]) but no major ones so far. The claimed numbers are:

• 12,615 losses
  • 7401 killed or wounded
    • 2400 from "Right Sector" and National Guard
    • 2014 from Kolomoisky-funded paramilitaries
    • 115 from Security Service of Ukraine
    • 330 foreign fighters
      • 139 from the Polish private military company "ASBS Othago"
      • 40 from American company "Greystone"
      • 125 from American company "Academi" (formerly "Blackwater")
  • 14 taken prisoner
  • 5200 deserters

It then gives a long list of Ukrainian military divisions and losses from each of them.

As I understand it, the numbers can't be included in the article just based on the post itself due to WP:SELFSOURCE (because such enemy casualty numbers in a war may be self-serving). However, as Strelkov is a senior military personage, and other news outlets are reporting on the numbers, would it make sense to mention it in the infobox as an "according to the insurgents" number for Kiev military casualties? Esn (talk) 15:29, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

P.S. Hm. I just noticed that though it's on Strelkov's page, the author listed at the bottom isn't Strelkov but Igor Panarin. Esn (talk) 15:35, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

@EkoGraf: I'll ping EkoGraf. He's the statistics expert around here. RGloucester — ☎ 15:33, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I highly doubt these numbers are authentic. If this is true, Ukrainian forces in Doubas would be depleted by now, seeing as how the entire Ukrainian army has something like 50,000 soldiers, which means no more than 20,000 or so could have been in Donbas to begin with.

I don't think the number is too reliable or authentic. However, since we already presented both the rebel and government claim on the number of rebel dead, it would be fair to present both sides claims on the number of dead on the government side as well. EkoGraf (talk) 20:56, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

The article currently states that there are 30,000 men from the pro-Kiev side fighting in Donbass. If the numbers were accurate, this would represent a loss of one-third (supposing some of the wounded may have healed and gone back to fight). However, considering that there have been several "partial mobilization" drives in Ukraine (as well as creation of volunteer paramilitaries), the number of men in the pro-Kiev side should be constantly increasing and offset the losses. The Armed Forces of Ukraine article says that there are currently 90,000 active personnel, and 1 million reservists. One could perhaps argue that the mobilization drives (three so far) would not have been necessary if the losses were really just a few hundred men. Not that any of that can be said in the article of course, as it's original research.

If you think it's okay to add the number in, would you be so kind as to do so? I'm uncertain of the proper formatting. Esn (talk) 06:19, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

I seriously doubt there can be more than a few thousands Ukrainian soldiers active in Donbas. The Ukrainian government is woefully short on funds. Even if it conscripts tens of thousands, it has no money to train them, arm them and deploy them. Only a small fraction of the 90,000 active personnel are fit for combat, and certainly not all of them can be sent to fight in Donbas all at once. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.7.137.211 (talk) 15:43, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Is not this obvious that volunteers are fighting not only on the pro-Russian side, but also on the Ukrainian? And when someone is counting deaths they should count not only killed soldiers but also killed volunteers. IHasBecauseOfLocks (talk) 03:38, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

@EkoGraf: And what if next day Strelkov will come with another 10.000 deaths? The difference between both sides numbers is to big... Cristi767 (talk) 09:31, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Our personal opinions really don't count. Its what the sources say that counts. I will wait a little longer for the debate to continue and make an edit per what everyone agrees to that is within Wikipedia policy designations. EkoGraf (talk) 13:01, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

In my personal opinion one cannot keep their personal opinions from influencing his work. IHasBecauseOfLocks (talk) 03:38, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Concur with EkoGraf. We don't run ahead of the game. Let's see what more sources have to say on the matter and, if it is warranted, make adjustments if they are needed.

@IHasBecauseOfLocks: Actually, by applying logic, as well as the well thought out policies and guidelines to which we are obliged to adhere, it is possible to make an honest job of trying to be neutral. Many of the editors here have personal positions, disagree with each other on various points, but manage to collaborate well in recognition each other's experience skill and ability to develop good faith content.

@Cristi767: "What if" does not factor into content. You're pre-empting sourced content and treating this as WP:CRYSTAL. Please familiarise yourself with Wikipedia policies. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:45, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

I think it could be mentioned in the bulk of the article. To be mentioned in the infobox, since neither Polish nor American paramilitaries are listed would be weird, I guess.Mondolkiri1 (talk) 07:21, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

My personal opinion is actually pretty neutral, but yes, if someone's personal opinion is not neutral it is wrong. IHasBecauseOfLocks (talk) 10:31, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Just as a small note, to be neutral is also a personal position. My own personal position actually changed (though not from one extreme side to the other extreme side) with the development of the unrest and later of the armed rebellion, but I think that's not unnatural. To have less neutral personal opinions is not wrong, if one's contributions for the article are objective and well-sourced.Mondolkiri1 (talk) 18:00, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

@Iryna Harpy: During the conflict there were many unrealistic claims from both sides. And that's just propaganda. The numbers were not confirmed by anything and even the authors never come back to them. We can mention in the article, but i think in the infobox we should pay more attention to the numbers. Cristi767 (talk) 13:09, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

@Cristi767: Attention has been paid to the numbers in the infobox by EkoGraf, who has been using reliable sources for the WP:CALC on this and all of the related articles since their inception. He provided sources and his methodology months ago, and it is a waste of his time and energy having to go through it over and over again every time someone new involves themselves in the article and challenges his figures. Please read WP:AGF as relates to his stats and the fact that ongoing contributors are entirely satisfied with the veracity of his hard work. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:50, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

@Iryna Harpy: I appreciate all his work :-) Cristi767 (talk) 23:11, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Another number has been reported on in a mainstream news source from Pavel Gubarev, claiming 8,000 dead losses on the government side. I've added it to the infobox and also added the number above, as they seem quite similar and are obviously part of a coordinated narrative on the part of the insurgents. Also, since I raised the issue, there don't seem to have been any significant objections raised against including the numbers except that "they're unlikely". However, there has been no objective report on military deaths from either side - the numbers claiming only a few hundred deaths are based on sources entirely from the Ukrainian government, who have just as much of an incentive to minimize casualty figures as the insurgents have to maximize them. Therefore, I feel it is more helpful to include both sets of figures, and to make it clear in the infobox which "side" they both come from. Esn (talk) 11:34, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Agree to the addition of separatist claims of military losses until a more neutral source shows up. EkoGraf (talk) 15:08, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

That's the most unrealistic figure I've heard of so far, regarding military conflicts. If this was even remotely true, the Ukrainian operation wouldn't have been only ceased by now due to complete depletion of military capacities, a long time ago in fact, but Kiev would have been forced to aknowledge total defeat and accept seperation of Donbass not being able to hold any single position they hold now there. Despite succesful attempts from insurgents side to deal some significant damage to the Ukrainian army, those losses couldn't have been more than several hundred people ( added some few hundred more to gov figures ). This definitly needs some clarificatios and clean up. TheMightyGeneral (talk) 07:42, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

I think its crazy to include this figure, it far exceeds any independent total of deaths in the War to date, let alone for one side. The number of dead foreign fighters is not plausible, if it was even a fraction of this it would have been picked up by some other non-Russian news source. The whole thing should be excluded .Daithicarr (talk) 21:24, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Please show me an "independent total of deaths". Does one exist which does not rely on sources from either the Ukrainian military or the insurgents? In this interview on a Ukrainian news site, a Ukrainian soldier discusses how the official death tally from one operation was lowered by a factor of six from the true number by the authorities, and expresses extreme skepticism about the official "380 dead" number (English translation here). Relevant quotes:

Question: When they say that we have 380 dead during the ATO, should we believe this?

(skeptical silence)

Question: Then how many times more?

Answer: I don’t know, but it’s certainly not 380.

Question: Because you only saw with your own eyes …

Answer: Myself, I did not see that many. Here is a real-life example. I was able to speak to a pilot who transported the dead. Together with the wounded, he transported 64 men. But the majority of them were “200s” [Note: Killed in Action / KIA]! There were no black bags, and the bodies were simply piled up on each other. He said that he barely washed the blood from the plane. And on TV they said that on that day there were only 10 “200s”.

Esn (talk) 05:38, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Also, the number is for dead and wounded, not just dead. The current official Ukrainian government number is 2118 dead and wounded, I think. The insurgent number is just under 4 times higher. Esn (talk) 05:50, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 July 2014

Please replace following: Between fifteen and thirty-five insurgents were killed in a single incident, when two lorries carrying wounded fighters away from airport were destroyed in an ambush by government forces.[202][202][203][203]

New text: Between fifteen and thirty-five insurgents were killed in a friendly fire incident. Two trucks carrying fighters returned at high speed from the airport while firing on both sides were mistakenly attacked by other rebels.[406][202][202][203][203]

Reason in [406] "Interview: I Was A Separatist Fighter In Ukraine". Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty. 13 July 2014. Gasparyan: On television they said something like that the militias were transporting unarmed wounded under the sign of the red cross and Ukrainian forces fired on them. At that point, I still didn't know we'd been attacked by our own forces. I was sure it was the National Guard. Sometime in the morning of the 27th, two guys from the cover group that remained at the airport woke me up. They told me that it was friendly fire.

Hk1959 (talk) 10:57, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

 Not done Article is not semi-protected. RGloucester — ☎ 15:00, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Ukrainian army casualty update

363 soldiers killed + 1,434 soldiers wounded as of the latest update.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/official-over-360-soldiers-killed-in-east-ukraine-since-start-of-operation-358695.html

11 soldiers killed 31 wounded for today's update

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/ukrainian-army-loses-11-soldiers-in-past-24-hours-358812.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.7.137.211 (talk) 14:56, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Ukranian casaulties have rised dramatically since mid-June, over 10 daily, and when the uprising started ukranian losses were low in comparison with these days standars, also there is a lot of confusion regarting the Ukranian Armend forces branches witch not only Include the Army, Air Force, Navy but also the Border Guards and the National Guards.200.48.214.19 (talk) 13:22, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Though not counted as part of the regular army, National Guard including the various volunteer battalions and Border Guards are counting as soldiers IMO. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.7.137.211 (talk) 14:24, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Grad rockets

I've read the Human Rights Watch several times, and I haven't read anything about those rockets coming from the rebels. The separatists are accused there for other violations, but not for using Grad rockets against civilians. I'd recommend some precise quoting in the about the use of Grad rockets. The rebels' other violations (which don't include the use of Grad rockets) are already added, later in the article.Mondolkiri1 (talk) 05:06, 31 July 2014 (UTC)Mondolkiri1 (talk) 05:24, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Uh, I guess you haven't read it properly. It says "Both Ukrainian government and insurgent forces have recently used Grad rockets", though it was more concerned about the use of the rockets by the government. RGloucester — ☎ 05:51, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

You're quite right, about the use of both parties using Grad rockets, so I'm sorry, I missed that line. But still, I only read "against civilians" by the government. Well, with so unprecise weapons, I wonder if the rebels would choose to target them only against uninhabited fields... which would be unlikely!... but I think Human Rights Watch (and the Red Cross, and other NGOs) will investigate more about those issues.Mondolkiri1 (talk) 07:29, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

The report was most concerned about the government usage, but it also said that everyone should stop using them, as they're imprecise and end-up killing civilians regardless. RGloucester — ☎ 12:57, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

OK, I've seen there is another report from Human Rights Watch confirming that the insurgents are also using Grad rockets. Now it's correct.Mondolkiri1 (talk) 02:45, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Map of the Donetsk Oblast

To the South of the Sea of Azov is Russia, so it should be grey, not orange.Mondolkiri1 (talk) 10:54, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Claims of US Support to the Ukrainian Government

This edit of 11:48, 2 August 2014 puts wrong information in the infobox. It lists the US Government as supporting the Ukrainian Government in the conflict. However the text of the sources do not support this.

It has two citations for the claim in the infobox:

• "Obama orders Pentagon advisers to Ukraine to fend off Putin-backed rebels". The Washington Times. July 22, 2014. {{cite news}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)
• "U.S. sending advisers, military gear to Ukraine". Army Times. June 5, 2014. {{cite news}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)

The headlines (which are generally not written by article authors for Western newspapers and magazines) do seem to support the claim in the infobox. But the text of the articles says that (at the time of writing) the US will send teams of officials to "shape and establish an enduring program for future U.S. efforts to support the Ukrainian military through subject-matter expert teams and long-term advisers". In other words, at the time of writing, the US was planning to send people to evaluate helping the Ukrainian Government.

The Washington Times article says "The Pentagon has provided Ukraine with radios, individual first-aid kits, sleeping mats, neck gaiters, jackets and body armor but stopped short of offering anything that the country’s defense officials have requested that could be perceived as direct military assistance." It really is stretching it to say that the US Government is providing support to the Ukrainian Government side - you might just as well list the Red Cross.--Toddy1 (talk) 12:23, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

youtube videos have shown American equipment and supplies captured from the Ukrainian army by militia, items such as night vision goggles, communication radios, ready to eat meal rations. It is not a secret that the US provides material support to the Ukrainian military. The US government is very open about that. For instance, http://ukraine.usembassy.gov/statements/us-meals.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.7.137.211 (talk) 18:50, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

It is not really the same thing as supplying tanks, artillery and surface to air missile systems.--Toddy1 (talk) 21:09, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

True that. Don't forget, the nationalistic LDPR, of mainstream Russian politics, is an active backer of pro Russia folks, not only in non lethal supplies such as the ones that the US provides to Ukraine, but also lethal supplies. Let's also not forget that, back in 2009, some half of Russians held negative view of Ukraine. Back in 2012 when Yanukovych was in power, a quarter of Russians held negative view of Ukraine. Now? I would say at least 90% of Russians hold negative view of Ukraine. And that translates to a LOT of backing to pro Russia folks. I would say at least 90% of Americans can't even find Ukraine on a map. The US government backs Ukraine, but the American people do not. As you can see, the difference between Russian support to pro Russia folks and American support to Ukraine is huge. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.36.117.198 (talk) 00:52, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

How do you know that at least 90% of Russians hold negative views of Ukraine? Is that WP:OR (Original Research)?Mondolkiri1 (talk) 15:09, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

An educated guess. In 2009 it was 50%. In 2012 when Yanukovych was in power it was 25%. Now Yanukovych was illegally ousted from power and Ukrainian army massacres Russian Ukrainians by the thousands, what do you Russians would think of Ukraine?

So, you guess... That's indeed WP:OR!Mondolkiri1 (talk) 22:03, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

What the PEOPLE of certain countries support does not matter AT ALL. What matters is what kind of support the GOVERNMENT is giving.

The US is sending meals, money, and "advisors" (who usually end up doing a bit more than advising, but let's leave that be for now) to Ukraine, as sources have already stated.

The EU lifted the ban on sending military equipment to Ukraine recently (because as soon as they support your cause, it's ok for them to kill civilians), soon they will be sending military equipment as well.

But for now, adding the US as a supporter makes good sense, as that is exactly what they are.

You also claim that the LDPR is sending lethal aid to the rebels? I've seen no evidence of that, please provide sources or stop your lies. The leader of LDPR gave the rebels an armoured, unarmed Tigr vehicle, as far as I know, that's the only armoured vehicle ever given to rebels by any Russian politician. 89.215.172.157 (talk) 22:05, 4 August 2014 (UTC)BLGR

LDPR was once quoted in the article as supporting the rebels and the supposed evidence was a flag of the party flying over a group of them... which, obviously is no evidence. But the LPDR is a far-right opposition party in Russia that represents 11.4% of the voters (significant, but far less than the FPÖ in Austria, the Front National in France or the Jobbik in Hungary).Mondolkiri1 (talk) 23:34, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Denial by Russia

The source to which the parenthetical phrase "denial by Russia" was included in the previous version of the article is cited to this article. However, while the article quotes the Russian foreign ministry that, "international inspectors who have been coming to check the state of Moscow's troops along the Ukrainian borders have found no violations," it does not support the wider claim that the Russian government has not supported the pro-Russian rebels in the Donbass. Unless another citation is found to support that claim, I've removed the denial by Russia phrase. Inthefastlane (talk) 16:01, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

There's three citations that each claim that Russia is not supporting the rebels. 89.215.172.157 (talk) 22:10, 4 August 2014 (UTC)BLGR

You didn't read this article, did you? Inthefastlane (talk) 02:05, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

There are 2 other sources provided. Not just one. This doesn't mean that Russia isn't supporting the war. It just means that it's denying that it's supporting the war, which is different, though informative.Mondolkiri1 (talk) 06:03, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

But the article that is cited to RT doesn't say that Russia is denying that it is involved in the war in Donbass.Inthefastlane (talk) 23:48, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

It makes part of the denial, concerning to the images released that are in the Washington Post source, supporting the support by Russia.Mondolkiri1 (talk) 01:12, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

"Insurgents" or "separatists"?

I notice that "insurgents" in the infobox has been changed to "separatists". Are they separatists, though? On the one hand, some of the top political figures wanted to join Russia, or at the very least separate from the rest of Ukraine. On the other hand, their military leaders such as Igor Girkin/Strelkov and Igor Bezler keep saying in interviews that their eventual goal is to "liberate Kiev". Esn (talk) 18:09, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

"Separatist" is a political statement, whereas "insurgent" is merely a description of their actions. Therefore, regardless of whether they are "separatist" or not, they are still insurgents. Therefore, "insurgents" is to be preferred. RGloucester — ☎ 18:34, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

OSCE Spokesman Says Wrong to Call Ukraine's Independence Supporters "Separatists" --81.23.192.246 (talk) 04:10, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

That's fine, 81.23.192.246, but we don't use neutral terms according to only one body's interpretation of it. 'Rebels' has been used in the English language press for more than a decade as a loaded term denoting a negative perspective. As insurgency defines a militant movement against a sovereign state (i.e., the sovereign state being Ukraine), 'insurrection' (insurgents) against a lawful nation-state is more neutral than 'rebellion' (rebels). It may sound strange because 'rebellion' is also a neutral term, but the use of the terms 'rebels' has been subject to POV spin-doctoring far more prominently than 'insurgents' (see the use of Afghani rebels, Syrian rebels, etc. Pay particular attention to the Wikipedia article List of active rebel groups which is being challenged for multiple issues). --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:09, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

"Rebels' has been used in the English language press for more than a decade as a loaded term denoting a negative perspective" - sorry, what? It seems to me like it's the exact opposite. "Rebel" is a positive term in English, particularly in the US. Nobody was at all ashamed about supporting the "Syrian rebels", hence why Syrian state media from the beginning insisted on calling them all "terrorists" instead, and gradually saw their narrative become accepted (likely where Ukraine got the idea from). Remember who the good guys were in Star Wars? Remember how popular music artists have been admired for being "rebels" since at least the post-war period? Remember how the whole American self-image is based upon their rebellion against British rule, and how the American public is so eager to see their own history echoed elsewhere that they support many populist regime change efforts in foreign countries? Esn (talk) 07:01, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Rebel. adj not obeying Synonyms. insurgent rebellious revolutionary insubordinate insurrectionary mutinous

separatist. noun dissenter. Synonyms. rebel dissident protester heretic objector [5] SaintAviator lets talk 08:45, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

We can debate about what's the proper term, but fact is, per the sources, only a small number call them insurgents. Most call them ether separatists or rebels. But insurgents, only a few. And per WP policy, we go with the common name. EkoGraf (talk) 09:44, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

That's nonsense. WP:UCN is for the titles of articles, and has nothing to do with our prose, which is governed by the Manual of Style and WP:NPOV. Regardless, the idea that "insurgents" is used only by a "few" is also nonsense. It is used by such illustrious sources as Amnesty International. RGloucester — ☎ 15:01, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Hey Eko there is no mention in the battle-box of the 370-460 ukranian soldiers that crossed the border with russia, are they captured, Missing or AWOL??? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.48.214.19 (talk) 13:05, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

They're both insurgents and separatists. Sources mentioning them as separatists: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10769805/Ukrainian-troops-confront-pro-Russian-separatists.html ; http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/07/22/malaysia-plane-crash-promotes-ukraine-separatist-cause/12986971/ ; http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/26fe789c-126e-11e4-a581-00144feabdc0.html#axzz39kMTlJTR ; http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/29/us-ukraine-crisis-arms-specialreport-idUSKBN0FY0UA20140729 ; http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/pro-russian-separatists-in-eastern-ukraine-were-nobodies--until-now/2014/04/30/c504e687-cc7a-40c3-a8bb-7c1b9cf718ac_story.html . Sources mentioning them as insurgents: http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/08/05/ukraine-insurgents-disrupt-medical-services ; http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/06/30/ukraines-president-faces-decision-on-cease-fire/11751477/ ; http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine-abroad/reuters-rejecting-poroshenko-east-ukraine-insurgents-say-fight-will-go-on-351053.html ; http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-presses-offensive-against-pro-russia-insurgents-1.2696953 . I chose some articles by random, from sources that I consider reliable.Mondolkiri1 (talk) 22:18, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Esn, you seem to be talking of the use of an encyclopaedic lexicon as if we were writing a Hollywood script (AKA 'you can tell we're the good guys because we're wearing the white 10 gallon hats'). It seems that you're presenting an argument for the use of 'rebels' in order to align pro-Russian forces as positive reinforcement of their actions. If you being objective, why are you arguing for what you evidently believe to be a POV representation? We're not writing a script for the US government's position, the Ukrainian government's position, or for someone you want to present as being the righteous underdog. NPOV means NPOV. Incidentally, the US won independence through a revolution, not a rebellion. The terminology for the American Revolution was ascribed long before "Star Wars". Unless you have a crystal ball, we have no idea of what descriptors will be used in future research. Anyone for a pack of 'freedom fries' during intermission? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:27, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Lol Jumbo size please. SaintAviator lets talk 23:45, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Again, per WP policy, common name is the one we need to go with, and the most commonly used term for them is separatist or rebels. Insurgents is also used but not as much as the other two. EkoGraf (talk) 13:43, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Mr Graf, did you read my post above, or are you being dense? I shall quote, for your convenience: "WP:UCN is for the titles of articles, and has nothing to do with our prose, which is governed by the Manual of Style and WP:NPOV". RGloucester — ☎ 13:59, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Ukrainian-Russian war?

Are there enough sources referring to this for what it is, as a Ukrainian-Russian war? OSW ran a piece recently being blunt about it. [6]. Many other sources refer to it as "war between Ukraine and Russian-backed militants" or a "hybrid" or "proxy" war between the two countries. [7] [8] [9] [10] --BLACK FUTURE (tlk2meh) 15:03, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

That's mentioned in the "labelling of the conflict" section. However, it is not suitable for the lead section, as it is PoV and in heavy dispute. RGloucester — ☎ 15:07, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Disagree. This war is between the pro Russia camp and the pro EU AKA Euro Maidan camp. It is not between Russia and Ukraine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.7.137.211 (talk) 16:14, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Oppose. Biased pro-ukrainian sources close for war propaganda. 94.45.129.180 (talk) 18:15, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Strongly oppose. I see only western or pro-ukraine sources claiming it is a Ukrainian-Russian war. With no undisputable evidence of Russian boots on the ground, I don't see how this could be classified as such. 89.215.172.157 (talk) 20:43, 7 August 2014 (UTC)BLGR

There is plenty of evidence that Russian boots are on the ground and Grads firing over the border. It's indisputable at this point. --BLACK FUTURE (tlk2meh) 20:17, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

The CNN source shows pictures of Russian troops that allegedly are in the Donbass region, but it also states that it can't idependently verify the photographs. So, before there is any confirmation of movements with that sort of dimension, I'm opposed to either renaming the article or changing the description of the Russian role in the conflict.Mondolkiri1 (talk) 21:34, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Such a title (or WP:UNDUE speculation) is not only WP:FRINGE, but quite simply complete bollocks. Did the Russian Federation enter into a war with Ukraine while I was sleeping? What on earth does anyone imagine a "Ukrainian-Russian war" means? As pointed out by RGloucester, that's fine for the labelling, but blatantly silly for an encyclopaedic article. For further elucidation, see WP:TITLE. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:50, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Indeed. On a side note, since we're talking about the title (glad to see that editors have come around to calling this a war), "War in Donbass" is not entirely satisfactory, since according to WP, Donbass includes the Rostov region of the Russian Federation. I don't know if this point has been raised before; I'm just mentioning it for the record. I think an implication of your comment is that this is a civil war, so I personally think that something like "Post-Soviet Ukrainian civil war" would be a better title, but I guess that that's just me. – Herzen (talk) 05:51, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Humanitarian concerns section, disagreement about usage of "usually" vs. "often"

Quote from source: "men are often not allowed to leave Donetsk city" [11]. @RGloucester: has the following argument:

"'not usually' and 'not often' mean the same thing. However, copying the exact words without inverted commas is a copyright violation. That's why we 'use our own words'".

That's why we currently have "men were usually not allowed to leave Donetsk city".

Firstly it isn't about difference between "not usually" and "not often", but about difference between "usually" and "often". And I disagree that "often" and "usually" have the same meaning. "Usually" means regular thing, something you expect to happen. While "often" means that something happens frequently enough. There is a good explanation of the difference by professional teacher: [12]Finalyzer (talk) 01:03, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

My dear Lord, my Father above. If you want to use "often not", use inverted commas, therefore providing attribution. RGloucester — ☎ 01:06, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

I've settled this bit by using the inverted commas on my own. As far as your report from a Ukrainian tabloid, please read WP:GEVAL. "But" in an attempt to discredit the OSCE, a Ukrainian tabloid says "x". That's a false balance. Provide reliable sources, we can include it. That source isn't reliable. Once we've got a reliable one, do not use the format of "But..." in an attempt to provide a false balance. RGloucester — ☎ 02:20, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

You are so crusty, and have no idea about my intentions. I don't see anything wrong with my source, why do you think it's unreliable? Do you have any proof? And don't see how it "discredits" any other source. Finalyzer (talk) 01:10, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Canada sends military equipment to Ukraine

See this CBC article. Does this mean that Canada should be added under a "supported by" heading in the infobox? How much support is necessary in order for a country to be mentioned as being a "supporter" of one side? Esn (talk) 06:44, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

The infobox is for direct parties to the conflict, not for those who provide aid. RGloucester — ☎ 14:49, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

If anything, Russia should be removed from the supporters section. Unless the Russian government publicly states that it is providing military equipment to Donbas, Russia is not a party in the conflict. Sure, many Russians personally donate to support militia in Donbas, but they are not government. The US and Canadian governments openly state that they supply military equipment to Ukraine, so the US and Canada should be listed as supporters of Ukraine. Yes, the US government claims, notice the word claims, to have satellite images showing Russian involvement in the war, but it does not prove that the Russian government is involved.

Not how it works. We go by what reliable sources say, and reliable sources say that Russia is a direct party to the conflict. RGloucester — ☎ 15:51, 8 August 2014 (UTC)— Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.36.117.198 (talk) 16:53, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

If by reliable sources you mean western sources, then yes. There's been no real evidence shown, other than fake satellite photos.

You can't simply state that giving military equipment is considered support if you're Russia, but not if you're NATO.

http://rt.com/news/179136-nato-plane-arrives-ukraine/?utm_source=browser&utm_medium=aplication_chrome&utm_campaign=chrome

I always say, innocence till proven guilty. There is no proof that the Russian government is involved in the conflict. There may be evidence from the Ukrainian and the US governments, but evidence is not proof. I'm sorry but this is the way Western law works. Russia should be removed from the infobox, whilst the US and Canada should be added to the infobox. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.36.117.198 (talk) 12:49, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Another article claiming the same thing as the CBC link. 89.215.172.157 (talk) 09:57, 9 August 2014 (UTC)BLGR

Spanish volunteers

There are some Spanish people in Vostok Battailon. --79.157.214.243 (talk) 15:26, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Spanish volunteers? Wouldn't they be Ukrainian or Russian migrants in Spain? (since there are sizeable communities from these 2 countries in Spain). I ignore what would be the interest of Spanish people going to fight on the behalf of the insurgents, but if you have any source, mention it, please!Mondolkiri1 (talk) 17:06, 8 August 2014 (UTC)::

They are Spanish. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0K3-KEqyIY&list=UUdnB82ob_V7EXwwcCtB1vUg

Well, they look Spanish, they have a Spanish accent or very similar. It might be mentioned, though youtube videos alone are generally not considered as sources.Mondolkiri1 (talk) 17:56, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

3 Spanish left wing guys (those are the ones I see in the video and the photo of the source that was edited) are enough for Spanish volunteers to be included? I only can see 3! I wouldn't be surprised if they were Basque or Catalonian separatists willing to help their fellow separatists in Ukraine... But they don't seem to be so. Though, we have to take into account that Spain is now one of the 3 most Eurosceptic countries in the EU (along with Britain and Greece), and a large percentage has voted for very left wing parties in the last European Election... That might be a possible motivation.Mondolkiri1 (talk) 20:38, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Certainly doesn't belong in the infobox. RGloucester — ☎ 20:41, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

@RGloucester:Sure, I agree and I'll correct that if it wasn't corrected yet. 3 Spanish guys certainly don't belong in the infobox.--Mondolkiri1(Talk) 21:03, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Ukrainian parliament sources claim over 10,000 killed in Donbas, including thousands of Ukrainian soldiers

http://rt.com/news/179048-ten-thousand-killed-ukraine/

It is known that hundreds of Ukrainian soldiers have been confirmed to have got killed in Donbas. This number consists of soldiers whose bodies were recovered from areas of battle and identified and soldiers who have died of wounds while in treatment. However, most of the time, bodies of soldiers are not recovered, bodies of soldiers were recovered but have decomposed and therefore cannot be identified, and soldiers were executed and whose bodies were not recovered. These soldiers are all listed as missing. It is not known how many Ukrainian soldiers are missing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.36.117.198 (talk) 17:10, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

RT is not considered a reliable source. Also, this is not "Ukrainian parliaments sources" saying this, it's a group of 34 MPs who made a faction a month ago comprised of Communists, former Yanukovych stalwarts, and Crimean MPs who now have no electorate. This is a horrible source, likely made up. --BLACK FUTURE (tlk2meh) 20:15, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

There have been long discussions about whether RT is a reliable source. See Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_173#Russia_Today. Esn (talk) 04:45, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

RT is just as reliable as BBC or any other state media source. No source can be "banned" from Wikipedia, don't even bother with your obvious russophobia, as it has no place here.

89.215.172.157 (talk) 10:02, 9 August 2014 (UTC)BLGR

Whether RT is reliable or not isn't really the point, because in this case the source is actually the Ukrainian MPs. And our personal opinions based on whether they are Communists, Yanukovych supporters, etc do not actually count on Wikipedia which is based on neutrality per which we are obliged to present both sides POV, regardless of our personal feelings and opinions. EkoGraf (talk) 13:40, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

I confess I've had a really hard time about POV from both sides. But each one accuses the other as being POV. Both Russian and Ukrainian sources are accepted are fine. It's like the Heisenberg principle in physics. In this case, the more we know about the movement of a particle, the less we know about its location and vice-versa. The Ukrainian and Russian sources are also likely the sources that have more information about the events, but at the same time are the most biased ones.Mondolkiri1 (talk) 21:32, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Map Issues

This map has some issues. Number one, when did luhansk and donetsk republics re-connect? The official map published on August 8 (when the changes were made) said nothing of the sort. A lot of maps i have read do not say so.--Arbutus the tree (talk) 08:17, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

We should put back the English map. RGloucester — ☎ 13:56, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

@RGloucester: I agree. We just need to update it a little.--Arbutus the tree (talk) 18:24, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

I've requested help from a user that usually is good at maps, and by now is updating maps concerning to ISIS, but he or she has already made some work concerning to the conflict in Ukraine.Mondolkiri1 (talk) 18:35, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Units involved

Chechen, North Ossetian, Ingush and Don Cossacks are actually Russian forces. It could be hide in some subsection of "Russian" (Units involved\Foreign volunteers\). Realmentat (talk) 08:57, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Casualty figures seem unreliable-especially the "1-2 militia killed"

Casualty figures seem unreliable-especially the "1-2 militia killed", if you count even Ukrainian reports about military and militia deaths they go far above what is currently sourced. Especially the militia part, even the pro-Kiev militia units reported sometimes as many as 12 dead on single day.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 09:18, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Pro EU volunteer fighters, once killed, rarely get counted in the killed count. Their bodies are typically not recovered and identified. Once captured by Pro Russia folks, they are typically executed and their bodies dumped somewhere where they get decomposed beyond recognition. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/29/-sp-ukraine-rebel-igor-bezler-interview-demon — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.36.117.198 (talk) 12:46, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

The 1-2 militia dead refers to 1 or 2 Right Sector militants that were killed before all volunteer militias were integrated into the Ukrainian Ministry of Internal Affairs or Territorial Defense units under the command of the Ukrainian Defense Ministry. Now, all of the volunteer militiamen are counted in the daily death toll reports given by the Ukrainian security spokesman where they are simply referred to as Ukrainian soldiers or servicemen. EkoGraf (talk) 13:36, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

It`s outdated information actual at the beginning of April 94.45.129.180 (talk) 14:29, 9 August 2014 (UTC)