Talk:Bruce Lee

Chronological Re-ordering?

The chronological order of this article is kind of hard to understand. Might I suggest a re-organisation? 76.79.82.50 (talk) 17:35, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 December 2014

Caption (under Death) "Bruce Lee is buried next to his son Brandon in Lakeview Cemetery, Seattle." Change to something like "Bruce Lee is buried in Lakeview Cemetery, Seattle. His son Brandon is buried next to him." 193.40.251.4 (talk) 13:59, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

 Done: [1]. G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 14:13, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 January 2015

<! Begin request --> Please changeUnder Wing Chun: "Lee began training in Wing Chun when he was 13 and not 16. Also under Wing Chun: Lee showed a keen interest in Wing Chun and continued to train privately with Yip Man and Wong Shun Leung in 1955. Well, that means his age will be either 14 or 15 so how could he begin training at 16? Henryrhee47 (talk) 19:52, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

References

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made - The book or newspaper you've added could be fake for all we know, Cheers, –Davey2010 ^{Merry Xmas / Happy New Year} 19:53, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

"The Legend of Bruce Lee" was probably the first book to be published about Bruce Lee in 1974 and many people, authors, writers, magazines, newspapers, etc. get their information from this book. It's a reliable source and not a fake.

Semi-protected edit request on 6 January 2015

Under fitness and nutrition: His height is 5 ft 7.5 in and not 5 ft 8 in.

Under New life in America: Lee enrolled at the University of Washington, majoring in philosophy and not drama. Probably didn't file paper work to formally change his major from drama to philosophy because he did not graduate. But you have to take his word of mouth as the truth. It's been a well known fact he majored in philosophy until Wikipedia came and stated differently. The legend of Bruce Lee by Alex Ben Block, 1974 Dell; Live interview with Bruce Lee and Alex Ben Block 1972

References

Henryrhee47 (talk) 21:24, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — {{U|Technical 13}} ^{(e • t • c)} 21:42, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 March 2015

This request is made regarding Bruce Lee's mother Grace Ho, under the section "Early life". I am not a confirmed or auto confirmed user and have zero edits but would like to request someone review my request and make the edit accordingly. Please change the text "Specifically, Grace Ho was purportedly a half-German Catholic,[15] and may have been adopted.[16] " to the new text "Specifically, Grace Ho has stated that her father was Chinese, and her mother was an English woman who died in Shanghai in 1934." The source for the information about Grace's racial background is from a 1941 interview conducted by the INS, in which Grace answered the question about her mother's racial heritage. The source information can be found here in pages 6 and 7 specifically of the digital document of the INS interview held by the National Archives and Records Administration. http://media.nara.gov/pacific/san-francisco/296477/12017-53752-Lee-Bruce_cite.pdf Please also note that the source #16 in the existing article regarding adoption is a dead link and there is no evidence of adoption in Grace's own testimony about her parents. Thank you Cmdevillier (talk) 07:08, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

References

Bruce Lee's wife, Linda Lee says in her book, "Bruce's mother... was half German and a Catholic..." (page 20 of [2]). What are your thoughts on that? However I've removed the adoption thing because of the poor sourcing. Stickee (talk) 07:36, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes I have seen the page in the book where Linda writes that Bruce's mother was half German. There is no source citation for this, whether it came from Bruce's mouth or from his mother's. The National Archives source I provided is actually a legal document that has Bruce's mother answering the question of her mother's heritage very straightforward and with no mention of being German, but fully English. This is a primary source. Linda Cadwell is a secondary or tertiary source. The interview source I provided was conducted in 1941, before Linda was even born. Grace has no reason relevant to INS questioning to lie about her mother's heritage, as by 1941, her mother is already deceased for seven years. I cannot find the earliest mention of anyone in the family being German, but it is definitely a rumor that is accepted as fact, though there is no source for it, it's just a statement often repeated in one variation or another. Being that the National Archives interview is a much older first hand source, I believe it is more credible than contemporary interpretations or rumors without source material. The only way anyone would know anything beyond the 1941 interview from Grace is if one of Bruce's surviving siblings provided reliable information about their mother, or a DNA test showing 3/4 chinese heritage and 1/4 specific English or German heritage. Without that, I believe grace's own interview instead of second or third hand unsourced information. Thanks. Cmdevillier (talk) 06:08, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi Cmdevillier, you wrote that "The interview source I provided was conducted in 1941, before Linda was even born. Grace has no reason relevant to INS questioning to lie about her mother's heritage, as by 1941, her mother is already deceased for seven years." I'd like to point out that the overwhelming reason to possibly omit mention full or partial German heritage is that in 1941 most of the Western world was at war with Germany, and the U.S. was teetering on the brink of joining that war. Bruce's mother does not state in the interview that her mother was "fully English", she simply states, through an interpreter, "My father is Chinese and my mother is English." [Which also would have been a convenient story to explain her (pseudo?) Chinese maiden surname.] At this point, Linda Lee [3] is an equally if not more reliable source than a would-be immigrant [who probably/possibly originally lied when entering the country in 1939], trying to bring their son into the U.S. in 1941. The best Wikipedia could possibly do (but probably should not given the unreliable nature of the source -- after all it's not a birth certificate, and I can find no reliable secondary sources that dis-confirm her German ancestry) is quote both sources; we cannot remove the statement that his mother was part German, because that is likely the most accurate. Especially since WP:PRIMARY sources are deprecated on Wikipedia in favor of secondary sources. In fact, there are numerous other reliable sources (books) that state that Bruce's mother was German and Chinese: [4], [5]. My recommendation is to ignore the mother's under-duress interview and use reliable secondary sources, some of which I have provided in the links. -- Softlavender (talk) 07:24, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi, I'm aware of the advantage of distancing one from German heritage in regards to WWII events and. However, Grace was born in China and lived in Hong Kong (Hong Kong being a colony of Britain), and, both China and Hong Kong were allies with the United States. There's nothing about her potential German heritage, especially with her potential German mother being deceased, that would make her obviously dedicated to helping the German war effort. Further, the 1941 interview is an exit interview, not an entry/immigration interview. It is clear from reading the interview what the purpose is and what the events discussed are. Bruce Lee was born in San Francisco, California, and at the age of three months, he is being taken with his parents back to Hong Kong where they spent their lives together, before temporarily working in San Francisco. They are not trying to gain citizenship for themselves or for any of their older children. They are simply establishing that Bruce was in fact born in the U.S. and would like for him to have the option to return to the U.S. if he so chose to at a later date because he has citizenship by birth. Further, Grace never had intentions to be an immigrant or to remain the U.S. for any extended period. She was strictly in the U.S. for temporary work and had already attested to that in 1939. You may read that paperwork here:

I don't find Grace to be "under duress" during her interview. The part about the interpreter is standard. All of these interviews were conducted with the help of interpreters employed by the U.S. government or else there would be no way for the interview to happen. In fact there were many people who were interviewed and found to be lying, regardless of whether they had an interpreter. These interviews (there are hundreds of thousands of them for Chinese people who traveled in and out of the U.S.) were required by the government before the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882 was repealed. Please familiarize with the history of Chinese immigration and emigration history in the United States as related to the files held by the National Archives and Records Administration here .

I am not convinced Grace was German because the mentions of her German heritage in books do not have source material about this. Linda (Bruce's wife) does not provide a source. I would fully believe secondary and tertiary sources if they actually had citations for the German claim. Please direct me to one that proves her German heritage beyond a statement without citation or hearsay.

Also, in response to Grace's name be "pseudo Chinese", she is known by both "Grace" and "Ho Oi Yu" or in Chinese "何愛瑜". She signs her Chinese name on her papers already sourced from the interview and is known as a member of the famous Ho/Ho Tung family of Hong Kong, her father being Mr. Ho Kom Tong. Cmdevillier (talk) 18:57, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

References

Hi Cmdevillier, if you would, in the future please indent (each paragraph of) your posts with colons so they nest properly under the post you are replying to. Also, as in any internet posting, double-space between your paragraphs. I have done that for your posts so far. Preview before you save your post so you can view and check the indents. Unfortunately, your evidence is non-admissable because it is WP:PRIMARY, from the subject (who wrote in Chinese and had an interpreter), and inconclusive. It is not matched by any reliable source. If you had an official birth certificate for Bruce's mother, that might be one thing, because if official and reliable and untampered with it might not have been influenced by her. An overwhelming number of secondary-source reliable sources, many of them published before Linda Lee's book, discuss Bruce's German ancestry, and indeed his mother's full name, birth city information, and parentage, in detail, and mention how the German ancestry interfered with Bruce's martial arts training in his youth. Softlavender (talk) 00:44, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

In comparison of primary and secondary sources, what about Wikipedia's guidelines on using primary sources carefully? "You are allowed to use primary sources... carefully[edit]...Material based on primary sources can be valuable and appropriate additions to articles...Primary sources may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements that any educated person—with access to the source but without specialist knowledge—will be able to verify are directly supported by the source. This person does not have to be able to determine that the material in the article or in the primary source is True™. The goal is only that the person could compare the primary source with the material in the Wikipedia article, and agree that the primary source actually, directly says just what we're saying it does."

Would it not be helpful for readers to see that most sources claim a partial German heritage for Grace, although she herself has not been shown to corroborate that? The interview is still a legal federally created document, which in my opinion is a "reliable" document. Perhaps the text in question could be changed from "Specifically, Grace Ho was purportedly a half-German Catholic." to "Specifically, Grace Ho was purportedly a half-German Catholic. However, Grace has self-identified as being half or part English on her mother's side" and let the readers have source citations for both so that they can use it to do their own research and formulating of opinions? Would this align with the guidelines above "This person does not have to be able to determine that the material in the article or in the primary source is True™. The goal is only that the person could compare the primary source with the material in the Wikipedia article, and agree that the primary source actually, directly says just what we're saying it does"? Basically, there is a primary source available. The interview is not fabricated. The two conflicting sources can be interpreted by readers.Cmdevillier (talk) 06:19, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

any feedback on my most recent message above please, thanks Cmdevillier (talk) 16:05, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Hong Kong American

A Hong Kong American is "an American of Hong Kong descent." Bruce was born in American from Hong Kong parents. Maybe propose alternative wording, but the edit I reverted is because I believe it resulted in a version that did not include Bruce's heritage. WP:OPENPARA Alrich44 (talk) 15:20, 17 April 2015 (UTC)