It seems highly misleading to state "Scotland was an independent country from its foundation in the Early Middle Ages, with some historians dating its foundation from the reign of Kenneth MacAlpin in 843". During the early middle ages the modern concept of a "country" would be completely alien. Rather than talk about a foundation of Scotland it would be better to talk about an emergence of Scotland. Further this sentence, "English monarchs claimed Scottish territory on many justifications, which were usually sent to the Pope and other foreign rulers to explain their military aggression" seems highly suspect as well. In the middle ages local rulers in Scotland would have been fighting against kings controlling lands in France as well as England. These kings would be better described as Angevin and Norman. Moreover military aggression appears as a loaded term when something more neutral such as expansionism could be used. <small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/92.28.207.85|92.28.207.85]] ([[User talk:92.28.207.85|talk]]) 13:00, 30 March 2015 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
It seems highly misleading to state "Scotland was an independent country from its foundation in the Early Middle Ages, with some historians dating its foundation from the reign of Kenneth MacAlpin in 843". During the early middle ages the modern concept of a "country" would be completely alien. Rather than talk about a foundation of Scotland it would be better to talk about an emergence of Scotland. Further this sentence, "English monarchs claimed Scottish territory on many justifications, which were usually sent to the Pope and other foreign rulers to explain their military aggression" seems highly suspect as well. In the middle ages local rulers in Scotland would have been fighting against kings controlling lands in France as well as England. These kings would be better described as Angevin and Norman. Moreover military aggression appears as a loaded term when something more neutral such as expansionism could be used. <small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/92.28.207.85|92.28.207.85]] ([[User talk:92.28.207.85|talk]]) 13:00, 30 March 2015 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::I agree that the intro can raise the hackles, but I think it is probably unrealistic to expect a brief introduction to encompass the reality that there is no equivalence between modern concepts and those in 'use' in the Middle Ages. It seems to me there is not even a 1-to-1 correspondence between ideas 'then' and ideas 'now'. There is no doubt (in my mind) that: <"Scotland was an independent country from its foundation in the Early Middle Ages, with some historians dating its foundation from the reign of Kenneth MacAlpin in 843"?> is not a TRUE statement; but it serves a purpose really quite well, it seems to me. That purpose is to 'set the scene' for a reader whose previous knowledge on the topic may be quite sketchy. I think that, for example, <"Scotland emerged as an 'independent' country in the early Middle Ages, with some historians dating its foundation from the reign of Kenneth MacAlpin in 843"> is less misleading, and would therefore improve the article - why don't you suggest some specific form of words on the talk pages, and try to get consensus? Bear in mind that the intro needs to be brief and 'accessible'; perhaps consider also - who might look to Wikipedia to find out about Scottish Independence?. Good Luck. [[Special:Contributions/86.17.152.168|86.17.152.168]] ([[User talk:86.17.152.168|talk]]) 11:10, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
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In the interests of objectivity and completeness, certain key facts should be added (rather than unsupported assertions in the form of either side's claims) - that shed light on the viability of Scotland as an independent country.
For example:
Scotland would be Europe’s largest oil producer, and 2nd largest gas producer. Scotland has oil reserves worth up to £1.5 trillion in the North Sea which can sustain jobs and revenues until “well after 2055” (according to the UK government).
@MilborneOne: Oh, then I was not the 1st one with this thought. But in your reference there are little gaps between the St. Patricks Cross and the English cross. I think these gaps, necessary for the "Scottish part" so far will not more necessary for the new Union Jack.
Today I got from the German media that now exists a little majority for a "Yes", means a independence of Scotland (51 Yes, 49 No). This means that the independence in some weeks is likely and that me need to update the UK-articles.Flk-Brdrf (talk) 12:54, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
User:Flk-Brdrf the proposed date for Scottish independence (if the vote goes that way) is the 25 March 2016 so nothing will change for a while, no evidence that the name of the United Kingdom or the flag would need to change. As that is a least 18 months away then nothing is going to happen in the next few week other than a result of a ballot, nothing will change here for a while if at all so not much point in continuing this speculation, thanks. MilborneOne (talk) 13:43, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note that, in the case of Scots voting 'yes', independence would not happen with immediate effect; negotiations and planning will mean that independence will not come into effect for, at least, several months or, more probable, a couple of years! Preparing new maps and new flags at this time is not necessary. -- HazhkTalk14:00, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Out of interest, where is the name "Little Britain" coming from? If Scotland became independent the rest of the state would still be called the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". Likewise, the rest of the UK would be under no obligation to change its flag (a flag which predates the Acts of Union). -- HazhkTalk14:11, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It's probably a misunderstanding of the name "Great Britain", and it shouldn't be used anywhere on Wikipedia. P.S. Thanks for sorting out the indentation! I overlooked MilborneOne's comments which are the same as mine. I didn't realise there was an official date for independence, but it is nearly two years away as I expected (so we shouldn't be worrying about maps and flags yet)-- HazhkTalk14:23, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know why User:Hazhk thinks that "the rest of the state would still be called the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". That seems unlikely - "Great Britain" refers to either the whole geographical island, or to the union of England and Wales with Scotland. If Scotland became independent, the term Great Britain in either sense would be clearly wrong. We don't know what the name might be, but it could be "United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland". The term "Little Britain", by the way, has various meanings including, historically, Brittany. User:Flk-Brdrf's map is also wrong in showing the Isle of Man as part of the UK - it isn't. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:35, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I suspect nothing will change in this area if Scotland becomes independent, and it will become a point of dispute between the new and continuing states. Cf "United States of America" and South Americans' complaints of the use of "American" and "America" meaning USian. DeCausa (talk) 14:40, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
To all: The term "Little Britain" is not only my idea. In the German media here they talked about "Klein Britannien" that I translated with "Little Britain". But possibly there is a better translation, "Small Britain" perhaps.
Isle of Man: Under which control this island will become? I think London and not Edinburgh. But of course I can remove the Isle of Man from the map as part of the future kingdomFlk-Brdrf (talk) 15:04, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Recently, some polling companies have produced polls showing public opinion to having another referendum and how they would now vote if a referendum were to occur tomorrow. [1][2]
As the issue of scottish independence is far from resolved due to many factors, would it therefore be appropriate to add a section to this article with the published opinion polls on this issue. Humongous125 (talk) 12:14, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Wording in History Section
It seems highly misleading to state "Scotland was an independent country from its foundation in the Early Middle Ages, with some historians dating its foundation from the reign of Kenneth MacAlpin in 843". During the early middle ages the modern concept of a "country" would be completely alien. Rather than talk about a foundation of Scotland it would be better to talk about an emergence of Scotland. Further this sentence, "English monarchs claimed Scottish territory on many justifications, which were usually sent to the Pope and other foreign rulers to explain their military aggression" seems highly suspect as well. In the middle ages local rulers in Scotland would have been fighting against kings controlling lands in France as well as England. These kings would be better described as Angevin and Norman. Moreover military aggression appears as a loaded term when something more neutral such as expansionism could be used. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.28.207.85 (talk) 13:00, 30 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the intro can raise the hackles, but I think it is probably unrealistic to expect a brief introduction to encompass the reality that there is no equivalence between modern concepts and those in 'use' in the Middle Ages. It seems to me there is not even a 1-to-1 correspondence between ideas 'then' and ideas 'now'. There is no doubt (in my mind) that: <"Scotland was an independent country from its foundation in the Early Middle Ages, with some historians dating its foundation from the reign of Kenneth MacAlpin in 843"?> is not a TRUE statement; but it serves a purpose really quite well, it seems to me. That purpose is to 'set the scene' for a reader whose previous knowledge on the topic may be quite sketchy. I think that, for example, <"Scotland emerged as an 'independent' country in the early Middle Ages, with some historians dating its foundation from the reign of Kenneth MacAlpin in 843"> is less misleading, and would therefore improve the article - why don't you suggest some specific form of words on the talk pages, and try to get consensus? Bear in mind that the intro needs to be brief and 'accessible'; perhaps consider also - who might look to Wikipedia to find out about Scottish Independence?. Good Luck. 86.17.152.168 (talk) 11:10, 16 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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