Talk:Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period

comments

ok heres the thing we really need smart ppl answering hard questions ok thank u(UTC)

Map please!

let's get a map here showing the boundaries of the various kingdoms. I have no idea where these places were! brain 19:12, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Alright! I'll see what i can do. Pojanji 00:07, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

"Too Tedious"

What on earth is "too tedious" supposed to mean—"It's too much trouble for me to do"? How about "Too numerous to be listed" or something? "Too tedious" just sounds ridiculous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.112.66.23 (talk) 00:50, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

"Later Han," or "Later Zhou?"

I don't know anything about the subject, but this *looks* like an error:

"...However, Liu Chong, a member of the Later Han imperial family, established a rival Northern Han regime in Taiyuan, and requested Khitan aid to defeat Later Han."

This comes right after a description of the fall of Later Han, and the establishment of Later Zhou. Does it make sense that a Later Han family member would request the assistance of a foreign power to contend against his already deposed family dynasty?zadignose (talk) 15:46, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

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Page rework

NickDupree brought to my attention how... err... needy this page is.

Okay, so these are the things that I see as issues.

• Right now this is a switchboard paragraph. It's got a paragraph on each of the titular dynasties/kingdoms, with links out. The focus of this page really should be the era itself. In the conversation that led to this, Nick mentioned "Chinese kingdoms competing against each other, forcing technological leaps in order to get an edge". I'd also like to see some sections on the economic and social realities of the period.

• "List of Sovereigns" section needs to go. That stuff needs to into the articles on the kingdoms and dynasties, as it adds nothing to this article. I'm torn, leading delete, on the "Other regimes" subsection.

• I see lots of art, but no context.

Thoughts? Sven Manguard Wha? 22:03, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Copy of removed material: List of sovereigns

(headers changed to ";" lines)

Content in collapse box.

List of Sovereigns Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms Sovereigns in the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms Period (907–960) Temple Names (廟號 miào hào) Posthumous Names (諡號 shì hào) Personal Names Period of Reign Era Names (年號 nián hào) and their according range of years Five Dynasties * note the naming convention: name of dynasty (e.g. 後漢) + temple name or posthumous name (e.g. 高祖), which makes 後漢高祖 Later Liang Dynasty 後梁 Hòu Liáng 907–923 Tài Zǔ 太祖 Too tedious thus not used when referring to this sovereign Zhū Wēn 朱溫 907–912 Kāipíng 開平 (907–911) Qiánhuà 乾化 (911–912) Did not exist Mò Dì 末帝 Zhū Zhèn 朱瑱 913-923 Qiánhuà 乾化 (913–915) Zhēnmíng 貞明 (915–921) Lóngdé 龍德 (921–923) Later Tang Dynasty 後唐 Hòu Táng 923–936 Zhuāng Zōng 莊宗 Too tedious thus not used when referring to this sovereign Lǐ Cúnxù 李存勗 923-926 Tóngguāng 同光 (923-926) Míng Zōng 明宗 Too tedious thus not used when referring to this sovereign Lǐ Sìyuán 李嗣源 or Lǐ Dǎn 李亶 926-933 Tiānchéng 天成 (926-930) Chángxīng 長興 (930-933) Did not exist Mǐn Dì 節閔帝 Lǐ Cónghòu 李從厚 933-934 Yìngshùn 應順 (913-915) Did not exist Mò Dì 末帝 Lǐ Cóngkē 李從珂 934-936 Qīngtài 清泰 (934-936) Later Jin Dynasty 後晉 Hòu Jìn 936-947 Gāo Zǔ 高祖 Too tedious thus not used when referring to this sovereign Shí Jìngtáng 石敬瑭 936-942 Tiānfú 天福 (936-942) Did not exist Chū Dì 出帝 Shí Chóngguì 石重貴 942-947 Tiānfú 天福 (942-944) Kāiyùn 開運 (944-947) Later Han Dynasty 後漢 Hòu Hàn 947-950 Gāo Zǔ 高祖 Hòu​hàn​ Gāozǔ 後漢高祖, "Later Han High Ancestor," 高祖 Gāozǔ "High Ancestor" being a conventional designation for dynastic founders, as in the case of 高祖 Gāozǔ Emperor Gaozu of Han, founder of the original Han Dynasty, though in that case 高祖 Gāozǔ is his temple name, identical with the temple name of this Later Han Dynasty (Five Dynasties) ruler, and the original Han Dynasty founder's posthumous name is 高皇帝 Gāo Huáng​dì​ "High Emperor" as the founder of the second of the historically recorded Dynasties in Chinese history, which is what distinguishes the two in their honorific titular names. Liú Zhīyuǎn 劉知遠 947-948 Tiānfú 天福 (947) Qiányòu 乾祐 (948) Did not exist Yǐn Dì 隱帝 Liú Chéngyòu 劉承祐 948-950 Qiányòu 乾祐 (948-950) Later Zhou Dynasty 後周 Hòu Zhōu 951-960 Tài Zǔ 太祖 Too tedious thus not used when referring to this sovereign Guō Wēi 郭威 951-954 Guǎngshùn 廣順 (951-954) Xiǎndé 顯德 (954) Shì Zōng 世宗 Too tedious thus not used when referring to this sovereign Chái Róng 柴榮 954-959 Xiǎndé 顯德 (954-959) Did not exist Gōng Dì 恭帝 Chái Zōngxùn 柴宗訓 959-960 Xiǎndé 顯德 (959-960) Ten Kingdoms note the naming convention: use the personal names unless otherwise stated Wuyue Kingdom 吳越 904-978 Tài Zǔ 太祖 Wǔsù Wáng 武肅王 Qián Liú 錢鏐 904-932 Tiānbǎo (天寶) 908-923 Bǎodà (寶大) 923-925 Bǎozhèng (寶正) 925-932 Shìzōng (世宗) Wénmù Wáng 文穆王 Qián Yuánquàn 錢元瓘 932-941 Did not exist Chéngzōng 成宗 Zhōngxiàn Wáng 忠獻王 Qián Zuǒ 錢佐 941-947 Did not exist Did not exist Zhōngxùn Wáng 忠遜王 Qián Zōng 錢倧 947 Did not exist Did not exist Zhōngyì Wáng 忠懿王 Qián Chù 錢俶 947-978 Did not exist Min Kingdom 閩 909-945 including Yin Kingdom 殷 943-945 Tàizǔ 太祖 Zhōngyì Wáng 忠懿王 Wáng Shěnzhī 王審知 909-925 Did not exist Did not exist Did not exist Wáng Yánhàn 王延翰 925-926 Did not exist Tàizōng 太宗 Huìdì 惠帝 Wáng Yánjūn 王延鈞 926-935 Lóngqǐ (龍啟) 933-935 Yǒnghé (永和) 935 Kāngzōng (康宗) Too tedious thus not used when referring to this sovereign Wáng Jìpéng 王繼鵬 935-939 Tōngwén (通文) 936-939 Jǐngzōng (景宗) Too tedious thus not used when referring to this sovereign Wáng Yánxī 王延羲 939-944 Yǒnglóng (永隆) 939-944 Did not exist Tiāndé Dì (天德帝) (as Emperor of Yin) Wáng Yánzhèng 王延政 943-945 Tiāndé (天德) 943-945 Jingnan 荊南 or Nanping 南平 Kingdom 906-963 Did not exist Wǔxìn Wáng 武信王 Gāo Jìxīng 高季興 909-928 Did not exist Did not exist Wénxiàn Wáng 文獻王 Gāo Cónghuì 高從誨 928-948 Did not exist Did not exist Zhēnyì Wáng 貞懿王 Gāo Bǎoróng 高寶融 948-960 Did not exist Did not exist Shìzhōng 侍中 Gāo Bǎoxù 高寶勗 960-962 Did not exist Did not exist Did not exist Gāo Jìchōng 高繼沖 962-963 Did not exist Chu Kingdom 楚 897-951 Did not exist Wǔmù Wáng 武穆王 Mǎ Yīn 馬殷 897-930 Did not exist Did not exist Héngyáng Wáng 衡陽王 Mǎ Xīshēng 馬希聲 930-932 Did not exist Did not exist Wénzhāo Wáng 文昭王 Mǎ Xīfàn 馬希範 932-947 Did not exist Did not exist Fèi Wáng 廢王 Mǎ Xīguǎng 馬希廣 947-950 Did not exist Did not exist Gōngxiào Wáng 恭孝王 Mǎ Xī'è 馬希萼 950 Did not exist Did not exist Did not exist Mǎ Xīchong 馬希崇 950-951 Did not exist Wu Kingdom 吳 904-937 Tài Zǔ 太祖 Xiàowǔ Dì 孝武帝 Yáng Xíngmì 楊行密 904-905 Tiānyòu (天祐) 904-905 Liè Zōng 烈宗 Jǐng Dì 景帝 Yáng Wò 楊渥 905-908 Tiānyòu (天祐) 905-908 Gāo Zǔ 高祖 Xuān Dì 宣帝 Yáng Lóngyǎn 楊隆演 908-921 Tiānyòu (天祐) 908-919 Wǔyì (武義) 919-921 Did not exist Ruì Dì 睿帝 Yáng Pǔ 楊溥 921-937 Shùnyì (順義) 921-927 Qiánzhēn (乾貞) 927-929 Dàhé (大和) 929-935 Tiānzuò (天祚) 935-937 Southern Tang Kingdom 南唐 937-975 Convention for this kingdom only : Nan (Southern) Tang + posthumous names. Hòu Zhǔ was referred to as Lǐ Hòuzhǔ 李後主. Xiān Zhǔ 先主 or Liè Zǔ 烈祖 Too tedious thus not used when referring to this sovereign Lǐ Biàn 李昪 937-943 Shēngyuán (昇元) 937-943 Zhōng Zhǔ 中主 or Yuán Zōng 元宗 Too tedious thus not used when referring to this sovereign Lǐ Jǐng 李璟 943-961 Bǎodà (保大) 943-958 Jiāotài (交泰) 958 Zhōngxīng (中興) 958 Hòu Zhǔ 後主 Wǔ Wáng 武王 Lǐ Yù 李煜 961-975 Did not exist Southern Han Kingdom 南漢 917-971 Gāo Zǔ 高祖 Tiān Huáng Dà Dì 天皇大帝 Liú Yán 劉龑 917-925 Qiánhēng (乾亨) 917-925 Báilóng (白龍) 925-928 Dàyǒu (大有) 928-941 Did not exist Shāng Dì 殤帝 Liú Fēn 劉玢 941-943 Guāngtiān (光天) 941-943 Zhōng Zōng 中宗 Too tedious thus not used when referring to this sovereign Liú Chéng 劉晟 943-958 Yìngqián (應乾) 943 Qiánhé (乾和) 943-958 Hòu Zhǔ 後主 Did not exist Liú Cháng 劉鋹 958-971 Dàbǎo (大寶) 958-971 Bei (Northern) Han Kingdom 951-979 Shi Zu|世祖 shi4 zu3 Shen Wu Di|神武帝 shen2 wu3 di4 Liu Min 劉旻 liu3 min2 951-954 Qianyou (乾祐 qian2 you4) 951-954 Rui Zong|睿宗 rui4 zong1 Xiao He Di|孝和帝 xiao4 he2 di4 Liu Cheng Jun 劉承鈞 liu3 cheng2 jun1 954-970 Qianyou (乾祐 qian2 you4) 954-957 Tianhui (天會 tian1 hui4) 957-970 Shao Zhu|少主 shao4 zhu3 Did not exist Liu Ji En 劉繼恩 liu3 ji4 en1 970 Did not exist Did not exist Ying Wu Di|英武帝 ying1 wu3 di4 Liu Ji Yuan 劉繼元 liu3 ji4 yuan2 970-982 Guangyun (廣運 guang3 yun4) 970-982 Qian (Former) Shu Kingdom 907 - 925 Gao Zu|高祖 gao1 zu3 Too tedious thus not used when referring to this sovereign Wang Jian 王建 wang2 jian4 907-918 Tianfu (天復 tian1 fu4) 907 Wucheng (武成 wu3 cheng22) 908-910 Yongping (永平 yong3 ping2) 911-915 Tongzheng (通正 tong1 zheng4) 916 Tianhan (天漢 tian1 han4) 917 Guangtian (光天 guang1 tian1) 918 Hou Zhu|後主 hou4 zhu3 Did not exist Wang Yan|王衍 wang2 yan3 918-925 Qiande (乾德 qian2 de2) 918-925 Xiankang (咸康 xian2 kang1) 925 Hou (Later) Shu Kingdom 934 - 965 Gao Zu|高祖 gao1 zu3 Too tedious thus not used when referring to this sovereign Meng Zhixiang 孟知祥 meng4 zhi1 xiang2 934 Mingde (明德 ming2 de2) 934 Hou Zhu|後主 hou4 zhu3 Did not exist Meng Chang 孟昶 meng4 chang3 938-965 Mingde (明德 ming2 de2) 934-938 Guangzheng (廣政 guang3 zheng4) 938-965 Other regimes Local independent regimes during Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms Period but traditionally not counted in the Ten Kingdoms Name of Posts Personal Names Period on post Wuping jiedu|武平節度 (similar to thema of the Byzantine Empire) 950-963 Wǔpíng jíedùshǐ|武平節度使 Liú Yán|劉言 950-953 Wáng Kuí|王逵 or Wáng Jìnkuí|王進逵 953-956 Zhōu Xíngféng|周行逢 956-962 Zhōu Bǎoquán|周保權 962-963 Qingyuan jiedu|清源節度 (similar to thema of the Byzantine Empire) 945-978 Qīngyuán jíedùshǐ|清源節度使 Liú Cóngxiào|留從效 945-962 Liú Shàozī|留紹鎡 962 Zhāng Hànsī|張漢思 962-963 Chén Hóngjìn|陳洪進 963-978

Please don't add this back to the central article, break the list down by dynasty/kingdom and place each piece in the article for that dynasty/kingdom. Sven Manguard Wha? 21:08, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress which affects this page. Please participate at Talk:Warring States Period - Requested move and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 23:00, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Getting better

I think this article is finally living up to its B rating. To get it to GA, can we find more citations? Bearian (talk) 16:21, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 13 June 2015

Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period → Five Dynasties period – Per 1) Google Ngram Diagram and 2) WP:Concise. There's another reason for the move. The term "Ten Kingdoms", though frequently encountered, is controversial and misleading because it seriously misrepresents the reality of the period:

1. The word "kingdom" is controversial. Only 3 of these so-called "Ten Kingdoms" are real "kingdoms", namely Chu (Ten Kingdoms), Wuyue and Jingnan. The others are all in reality empires, on the same political level as the "Five Dynasties" (for the most part). The difference between a "kingdom" and an "empire" is largely rhetorical, as some of these "kings" lived just like "emperors", but the political hierarchy of an imperial Chinese tributary system which dictates that a kingdom is inferior to an empire, cannot be ignored. Many historians nowadays use the alternative term of "Five Dynasties and Ten States", as the English word "state" doesn't distinguish between "empire" and "kingdom". English books on this period are few, but just look at two of these titles: Edward H. Schafer's The Empire of Min (about Min (Ten Kingdoms)) and Johannes Kurz's China's Southern Tang Dynasty, 937-976 (about Southern Tang). Clearly historians who have studied the period know these "Ten Kingdoms" shouldn't be called "Kingdoms", but rather "empires" or "dynasties".
2. The number "10" is also controversial. Quoting Hongjie Wang in his Power and Politics in Tenth-Century China, the term "Ten Kingdoms" also "fails to acknowledge other polities that were neither politically inferior to nor militarily weaker than most of the other regional regimes", such as Jin (Later Tang precursor), Qi (Five Dynasties), Yan (Five Dynasties) etc. Timmyshin (talk) 01:41, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

• Strong Support per nom, per WP:COMMONNAME, WP:CONCISE, and WP:PRECISE. There were not Ten Kingdoms in this period. It appears the current title "Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period" does not appear in books as per Google Ngram but "Five Dynasties period" appears in books commonly. The period is traditionally taken to have lasted from 907 to 960 CE, which is also the period that Five Dynasties existed in. Khestwol (talk) 02:51, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose it is the distinctive, historical and a not uncommon formulation. It's more distinctive than just Five Dynasties. The term "Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms" is frequently used in books [1] and it is used to refer to this period. -- 70.51.202.183 (talk) 06:15, 14 June 2015 (UTC)