Talk:American Chinese cuisine

Recent move

I just moved this article to Chinese American cuisine for several reasons:

• WP:Engvar - In the United states, ethnic cuisines are referred to in the ethnic-group American format. This is related to how Americans identify themselves, Chinese American, Irish American, African American etc.
• WP:Common name - This is the common name format for ethnic cuisine in the United States, Italian American cuisine & African American cuisine are examples of this.
• the parent article of this one is Chinese American

Like all ethnic cuisine, this cuisine refers to how immigrants to the United States adapted their cuisines to the tastes of America. Just like classic red sauce cuisine does not reflect Italian American cuisine, what Americans think of Chinese American cuisine is not actually the real thing.

If there is an issue with the move, please say so - I would gladly discuss it. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 20:36, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Do you have evidence that "Chinese American cuisine" is actually more common as a term than "American Chinese cuisine"? Common name convention applies to individual articles and no attempt should be made to create consistency where there is none. The phrase "Chinese American cuisine" is actually wrong in that most of the patrons of restaurants serving "American Chinese cuisine" are actually not Chinese Americans, but Americans of other ethnic groups. I can pull up sources, if need be, to prove this point, and showing how Chinese Americans deride this cuisine as being "fake Chinese food" they feed to Caucasians, and that many Chinese restaurants have English language menus and Chinese language menus serving different food items (the former serving American Chinese cuisine to non-ethnic Chinese patrons, and the latter catered to authentic Chinese tastes). Italian American cuisine, in contrast, is indeed what is eaten by Italian immigrants and their descendants.--Jiang (talk) 23:01, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Start with the Google test:

• Chinese American cuisine - 31m+ hits
• American Chinese cuisine - 6.7m+ hits

Educational sources:

• The Chinese American Food Society, Dr Vivian Wu, president
• UCLA Daily Trojan article by Sophia Lee, this addresses your comment about two types of cuisine.
• Author of 'The Fortune Cookie Chronicles' dishes on Chinese American food, an article on Boston Globe columnist Jennifer 8. Lee and her recent book. Note in the article Ms Lee comments on trying Mexican Chinese, New Orleans Chinese, and Indian Chinese cuisines as well as Chinese American food.

These are just a few sources. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 06:37, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Well The Chinese American Food Society seems to be an association of Chinese American restaurateurs and has nothing to do with the cuisine, so such mentions may play a role in skewing the Google search results. An example is this article, as sharks fin is not part of American Chinese cuisine. See page 81 of this book. --Jiang (talk) 21:09, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

The Chinese American Food Society is a non-profit public-private association run out of the University of Maine. It is headed and operated by individuals who have close relation to Chinese culture or heritage and are food scientists. Shark fin soup isn't Chinese and isn't served in Chinese American cuisine? Your assertion is off a little, as it wouldn't have been banned in San Fransisco, the one American city that is famed for its deep Chinese American community.

As for you claim that About Italian American cuisine is what Italian Americans actually eat is spurious. Have you ever eaten at an Italian American's home? Their food served at home isn't what you really see in "Italian" restaurants in the United States, from personal experience. Chicago pizza has almost no relation to Sicilian pizza (the closest version of Italian pizza that even resembles the American dish) yet is still considered Italian American because it is derived from Italian cuisine. You think Chef Boyardee, Pizza Hut and Olive Garden are actually authentic Italian American cuisine? They have about as much similarity between Italian cuisine as Wanchai Ferry, Panda Express and P. F. Chang's do to Chinese cuisine. Chinese American cuisine isn't Chinese cuisine, it is Americanized Cuisine with a root in Chinese cuisine, just like Americanized Italian cuisine. It is the same as Irish American cuisine isn't corned beef and cabbage served with green beer and Bennigan's or Japanese American cuisine isn't California rolls and Sarku Japan.

BTW, I have had more authentic Chinese-style cuisine from a local Chinese take out joint. Before they would close, the staff, all first and second generation Chinese Americans, would cook up more authentic style dishes to serve to themselves. Since I often frequented the place late at night, I would often observe their dishes and ask what they were eating. The stuff looked good, smelled good and I asked if I could buy some. At first they wouldn't sell me the stuff because they figured I wouldn't like it because it wasn't what Americans call Chinese food, but they relented eventually. It was much lighter, not as sweet and much tastier than their more commercial stuff...

You've asked me to show that the term Chinese American cuisine isn't proper, and I have provided you with examples that show it is. Could you please provide examples that bolster your position that American Chinese is?--Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 19:16, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Shark fin soup is served in authentic/original Chinese cuisine but not served in American Chinese cuisine. American Chinese cuisine does not serve meats that are regarded by non-Chinese Americans as "exotic." The reason it was banned in California is because of public sentiment regarding the the practice of finning as inhumane. See Paul Fong.

As an example of the term being used, please flip to page 37 of this book.

Did Italian American cuisine evolve as a way for Italian Americans to cook dishes to cater to non-Italian palates? Do Italian Americans regard Italian American cuisine as something designed for non-Italian Americans. Are there separate restaurants catering to Italian Americans and non-Italian Americans? I'm don't see the justification here, or the argument that Chinese American cuisine is a superior term, other than the perceived need to create internal consistency within Wikipedia.--Jiang (talk) 05:44, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

You are conflating two separate issues here. 'Chinese-American' is a term which modifies American, referring to someone of Chinese descent who is an American citizen or resident.

'American Chinese' is a term which modifies Chinese, referring to the food. I am both amused and depressed that you are getting so het up over something so *painfully obvious*. → ROUX ₪ 14:21, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

New to the article & discussion, but as I see it:

* Chinese-American food = food developed for and by Chinese Americans; probably closer to the original Chinese, with some allowances for ingredients more or less available in the US than in China.

* American Chinese food = Chinese cuisine made over to suit the American palate.

Do we have examples from other transplanted national cuisines, in the US or in other countries? Boneyard90 (talk) 13:58, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

'Mexican' of the Taco Bell variety, would be the obvious analogy. Italian, too. → ROUX ₪ 14:07, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

The issue is one of Engvar and common name, in the United States we call stuff Ethnicity American; American Ethnicity is simply not used. We do not make a distinction between the two, that is what is at the root of the discussion. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 18:42, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

"in the United States we call stuff Ethnicity American - when referring to people, yes. This is basic linguistics here. Ethnicity American = American modified by Ethnicity. American Ethnicity = Ethnicity modified by American.

Or to put it another way: XY = X modifies Y.

The food is not 'American' (indeed, the only clearly defined 'American' cuisines would be Californian, Cajun & Creole, Southern, tex-Mex). The food is Chinese, modified to American palates. Thus, American Chinese. → ROUX ₪ 19:17, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Just to throw in my two cents worth, how do you differentiate ethnic Chinese (in this instance) cooking as it was when that ethnic group was fairly isolated from what it is now? For example, Chinese laborers from the 1800s who were mostly isolated from the rest of the populace. Was their cuisine Chinese American or American Chinese? I vote for the former, since they were not considered American by other Americans or by themselves.

The same might be applied to many ethnic groups who "were imported" as laborers and were not really assimilated into the population for many decades. Most of these cuisines started with those laborers working as cooks for their American owners/employers and thus gradually became familiar to and adapted by the average American. Whereas ethnic Chinese, again in this case, who come to this country now are in a very different position socially, legally and as to access to ingredients they are used to using in their home countries. Am I making any sense? Zlama (talk) 01:57, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

I understand what you're trying to say, but the difference between "American Chinese" and "Chinese American" is not clear in English, whether in reference to food, people, or something else. Unless you have sources to bear, you're just making up your own conventions. Shrigley (talk) 02:03, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Sources are always good, but the difference is perfectly clear. Adjective modifies base: American Chinese X is an American version of the Chinese X; Chinese American X is a Chinese version of the American X; Chinese-American X is the X specifically of Chinese people in America; American-Chinese X doesn't really exist because China's not really an immigrant country: instead you'd say something like X of Americans in China or X of American expatriates in China (linking to the Chinese article on laowai X).

Bone is completely right; the article is where it should be; and Jer was completely confused as to the topic: it's about Chinese food in America (not the food of Chinese people who live in America. That's at hamburgers.) — LlywelynII 23:46, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Dog and cat meat part

I'm removing that part. Firstly, the source is about some restaurants in RUSSIA. Secondly, there is no significant reputation for dog and cat meat in American-Chinese restaurants. Sega31098 (talk) 23:21, 8 May 2012 (UTC)Sega31098

There is a significant reputation for it, although probably not a terribly justified one for over a century (and in the 19th century enlisted men were eating worse thanks to American industrialists). — LlywelynII 23:17, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Jews & Christmas

Moved over from the Chinese Chinese cuisine article where it had no business at all. Certainly something should be said, although three sections on the topic is probably pushing unWP:DUE weight unless it's given its own subarticle. — LlywelynII 23:17, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Jews and Chinese-American cuisine section

This is very interesting but given it's a marked departure from the rest of the article, would seem to belong as a separate article, and care must be taken not to commit SYNTH within it; I don't mean to suggest a POV fork but it's a very specific subtopic and there are no other sections like it.Skookum1 (talk) 22:03, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

The section is consistent with what I know, and it is as well-sourced as the rest of the article, if not better. Summary deletion is unwarranted, but it perhaps could be spun off as a separate article, though it will leave this article in worse condition, especially if it is not well-linked to the new spinoff. Reify-tech (talk) 23:29, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

I didn't notice Llewellyn's previous comment when I made mine, but subarticle is what this seems to be best as. Why not, for example, a Scandinavians and Chinese American food cuisine? Given the prevalence and invention of the 'Chinese smorgasbord' in mill bunkhouses and logging camps, or various other ethnic interfaces conceivable. It's not like Jewry and Chinese cuisine have a special relationship over any other; right now it looks like WP:UNDUE to me, at least in terms of its context relative to the rest of the article.Skookum1 (talk) 02:06, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

IMHO, this sections looks so close to the text referred to as "source". 7-MC (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 07:03, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

The section on Jew and Chinese American is sited by one source, the the entire section seems to be quoted word for word. There is also a lot POV in this section. I would recommend a rewrite and an additional source would help. jacob805

The topic is interesting and significant, though not well developed, but far out of proportion to the rest of the article. I agree with the suggestion that it should be forked off. If nobody objects, will do so in a while.ch (talk) 18:49, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Dear ch, please do. I came to the talk page to suggest just that. The topic stands out and belongs in its own article. Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:31, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree with most here that this section, while interesting and significant, is out of proportion to the rest of the article and lends undue weight to the subject. Seems there may be WP:COPYVIO and WP:POV issues as well. I agree it should be forked out. Mmyers1976 (talk) 18:38, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

Spinning it off as a separate article is reasonable; I share your other concerns about its content, which should be addressed there, probably with a complete rewrite. Reify-tech (talk) 01:39, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Chinese American food in Shanghai

Here is an article on a Chinese American restaurant in Shanghai

• Langfitt, Frank. "Shanghai Warms Up To A New Cuisine: Chinese Food, American-Style." National Public Radio. February 12, 2014.

WhisperToMe (talk) 04:47, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Moo Goo Gai Pan

I thought Moo Goo Gai Pan is a American Chinese dish. I am surprised it is not listed in this article. Kowloonese (talk) 03:23, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Authentic Chinese cuisine vs. American Chinese cuisine

Historically speaking, American Chinese cuisine refers to the cuisine created by the first wave of Chinese immigrant in Americans during the Qing Dynasty when Chinese labor came to the US to work in the gold mines near San Francisco and also the trans-Pacific railroads. Dishes such as Choy Suey were not known in China because they are created by these early immigrants. That tradition remains till today in many small town Chinatown. Big cities such as San Francisco and New York City got so many new immigrants since the 1970s that many authentic Chinese restaurants are established in these metropolitan areas. This article totally confuses the American Chinese cuisine that passed down from a century ago versus the new authentic Chinese restaurants that are brought here in the last decade. The segment about San Francisco in this article is evident that whoever wrote this article did not have the early Chinese immigrant culture in mind. I would suggest cleaning up this article to reflect the original early immigrant heritage instead of just an article about what food you can order now in San Francisco Chinatown. San Francisco has the oldest Chinatown in the US. So it was the birthplace of the American Chinese cuisine. But as pointed out in the article, you cannot even find Choy Suey in San Francisco Chinatown nowadays after all the authentic Chinese chefs have taken over. I am sure the original American Chinese cuisine can still be found in some remote areas with a smaller Chinese population. Hopefully some people from these small towns can contribute to this article if they can still order Choy Suey from their local restaurant. In my opinion, no restaurant in San Francisco these days serve American Chinese cuisine anymore, such fact should be mentioned in this article. Kowloonese (talk) 03:59, 20 August 2015 (UTC)