Talk:Aum Shinrikyo

Meaning of dakini: Jap wiki alleges (has an article on this very word) that dakini means Asahara's lover

Comment: in Japan, they could libel in whatever manner, they could get away with this. Ni, in fact dakini is the suffix to a 'spiritual name', like such-and-such dakini, that's all, this is unrelated to whether Asahara or whoever is a lover. As to (article alleges) that only virgins may have this suffix, untrue. Young women usually were assisner the 'dakini' suffix, not necessarily virgins. It is unclear as to where did they get that information, sourced to speculative articles from tabloids and one mainstream paper, but it many times posted libelous stuff and never retracted since no one sued. As to that nevertheless Asahara did have sex with women other that his wife, that is true. That to have sex with him for women was a requirement as it is alleged, is dubious and not corroborated by any credible testimony. Yuri Kozharov (talk) 17:32, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

For the above reasones, removed, but the admin restored it back with comment: "not only does this appear to be a reliable source by our criteria, I see it used in a number of other sources that meet WP:RS)" (and that is why we need to delete this, smears get spread). Don't know what to do, he is an Admin and this is actually a thread, that I will be next, banned and the lies reinstalled back. I was actually about to see if we could add credible info on Asahara's sex life, that might be of interest to Japanese who can read English as well, but... You see, he says 'our criteria' (we, like there are opposing fractions, kind of cult-lovers vs. Wikipedia, so sad...) It is the libelous stuff similar to what I deleted earlier, but... Yuri Kozharov (talk) 19:22, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

Note about 'cult-bashers'

It also seems important to note that there are groups usually called 'cult-bashers' that collect and later distribute the smear material on religious groups they call 'cults'. Example of such group: Cult Awareness Network. Besides smearing the 'cults' these entities label the scholars suspected in 'sympathising the cults' in being 'cult sympathisers' and smear them as well (usually so-called 'character assassination' is involved, when scholar is accused being a bad citized, drug addict etc.). I would very much like these people to keep their research to themselves and not produce it here, but given the nature of open source this is not always feasible. 'Cult-bashers' is a separate problem for scholars in itself, as they tend to provide information that look legitimate and to attack sholars focused more on research than activism.

Comments on the "During its most successful period" passage

Another difficulty is how to classify the doctrine. There always are a lot of PhDs that offer their expert opinion on what Aum's doctrine is (i.e. 'a mixture of..'), usually not bothering to read even the several books that were translated into English (the full collection is several bookshelves in Japanese). Let me comment the following passage:

During its most successful period, Aum Shinrikyo was a new religious group (did it ceased to be new or religios since then?), often described as a cult (true, but a repetition), centered on the charismatic leader Shoko Asahara (debatable and not very informative). Asahara's teachings (incorrect label, Asahara did not write the Pali Canon, so we cannot say the Canon is his teachings) combined elements of Buddhism and Hinduism (simplistic and not accurate) as well as millenarian Christianity (wrong), including yoga (yoga was already mentioned - Hinduism, why repeat), meditation (meditation is a technique, not a religion), and Qi Gong breathing exercises (Qi Gong is not 'breathing excercise', it's static postures, there are also moves, there are some breathing rules, similar to 'kata' in Karate. Qi Gong is part of Taoism, which was mentioned in my edition of the article) Central to the group's teachings was that the apocalypse is near (popular belief, but wrong. Central to the teachings are original buddhist sutras, the Pali Canon). The name "Aum Shinrikyo" derived from the Hindu mantra "Aum", followed by a Japanese word meaning "supreme truth" (true). /// Note: not much factual data, many lame passages, a lot seems to be said just to make the group seem weirder.

I am writing this comment to outline problems that are hard to avoid when dealing with the subject and to find consensus on how to improve the article. In other worlds, I think that stuff like doctrine is better discuss here and then make amendments.

Description of crimes

Same to crimes. Does it makes any sense to describe the sufferings of victims at such lenghth (almost a half of the text)? Will we post the detailed report on how exactly Mr Clinton had sex with that Ms Levinsky on Clinton's article (half of the text)? I suggest just to state who was killed.

'On October 31, 1989, a lawyer working against Aum Shinrikyo, Tsutsumi Sakamoto, successfully persuaded Shoko Asahara to submit to a blood test to test for the "special power" that the leader claimed was present throughout his body. He found no sign of anything unusual. To prevent the disclosure of this outcome' /// The blood test and 'special power' is simplistic and untrue. Tsutsumi Sakamoto, to my knowledge was a lawyer who tried something like mega-lawsuit Japanese-style against Aum and was very active in that. Monks in Aum severe ties with families, so their relatives (such as fathers, mothers etc.), with help of Sakamoto, sought 'compensation' (money) for the fact that they cannot live with them as they used to (moral damage) and funds they were receiving when relatives supported them financially (financial damage). Sakamoto was their lawyer, who received percentage of the sums. Of course, Sakamoto probably also tried to 'expose Aum' as lawyers do, but Aum was 'exposed' many thousand times before by almost every major newspaper or TV station in Japan. Compensations could make Aum bankrupt. So this is the facts, but I suggest deleting everything except the fact that Sakamoto was murdered and what Sakamoto did shortly before the murder. Otherwise, we could safely try not only describe Mr Clinton's affair in naturalistic details, but also write on reasons Ms Levinsky was so attractive to him in length.

External links

Removed the Apologetics Index Weblog again (previously it was removed by Gary D). Reason: it is almost identical (examples of exceptions below) to CESNUR's collection of newspaper articles, a link to which we already have.

Also removed the Apologetics Index link as well. This is an "online Christian ministry" aiming to "provide Christians with information on cults and sects", i.e. a Christian anti-cult website (it also has a specific section on "Aum apologists", as well as on "cult sympathysers" in general). Since there is no evidence that any staff member of this group has ever met Aum members alive and since all the links listed by the AI are available elsewhere, I suggest inserting direct links.

The following two articles are present at CESNUR, but not AI:

• [[1]]
• [[2]]

Religious News Blog and compensations fund

As regards the recent changes (which involved links to Religious News Blog, previously removed 3 times from "see also" section), I will try to incorporate additions, but not incorrect info. Let me comment on the following passage:

"[v]ictims of the March 1995 sarin gas attacks on the Tokyo subway and other crimes committed by the AUM Shinrikyo cult urged the government Wednesday to act swiftly and comprehensively on the issue of compensation, which remains unresolved after nine years." The report pointed out that AUM had been "ordered to pay compensation to its victims. However, the cult is apparently short of funds, while those directly involved in the crimes do not have the capacity to pay." (Kyodo News Service)

In fact, Aum Shinrikyo paid everything it could and was declared bankrupt as a result (that is why "the cult" is "short of funds", because it does not exist anymore). A new successor organization has been established, under name Aleph and it can not be "ordered" to pay any debts of Aum Shinrikyo, obviously. However, Aleph *voluntarily* established a compensations fund to pay compensations to victims. There were reports in the media pointing to insufficient *government* support to victims, including medical and financial, but this has nothing to do with "acting swiftly" with "the cult", because it has already being paid fully and the new organization is not responsible for any outstanding debts(see above). Therefore, as this passage is misleading, I will remove it.

Apologetics Index: Under Surveiilance Passage

Replaced links to Apologetincs Index (a countercult website maintained by an "online Christian ministry") - over 6 total, some repeating - with direct links to sources.

Miscellaneous minor edits

Removed the sentence on nuclear weapons development and attempts to acquite uranium (lack of credible evidence). To the best of my knowledge, suspicions and theories regarding attempts to buy uranium in Africa and extract in Australia were not confirmed.

Changed around some wording. Under Activities, "It had been founded by" becomes "Founded by". "young elite universities graduates" becomes "young graduates from elite universities". Gaius Octavius Atellus

Added: info on Aleph'2005

Information on reformers and fundamentalists, although scarce, has appeared at least several times in Japanese press starting the summer of 2005, so I condider it worth mentioning. The extent of disagreements is unclear, so I chose not to speculate this time.

Unexplained addition

Shogo Amakusa, leader of the renegade Christians in the Christian Arc of the anime Rurouni Kenshin, is likely based on Shoko Asahara.

Author of this, please elaborate on the meaning of this passage, what exactly in Mr Amagusa was based on Asahara? the character in that anime movie resembles him or something else? I will try to investigate and if found relevant enough, rephrase. Otherwise will remove. This perhaps makes sense to leave as Aum affair influenced the popular culture... but frankly religious theme is recent animes are so closely attached to Japanese version of reality that I remember a few more movies where I could find similarities... It would be great if you could provide some more examples or materials on this 'cultura;' aspects, especially J-Pop and anime mass cultureExitControl

March 21 edits

Removed various additions such as this one:

"Although Aum/Aleph often use terminology appropriated from Sanskrit and Tibetan Buddhist doctrine, they attribute meanings to these terms which are shorn of their original contexts and often bear little resemblance to the original doctrines"

I believe we may say that "some critics say or believe" this. Didn't rephrase because most similar additions attempt to picture the group worse it already was while the information itself is of doubtful quality or isn't an information at all (rather author's opinion). Another good example is expanding the 'doctrine' part with sentences sayings that 'Asahara' is an assumed name and he is currently in prison (it is already stated where it should). Lastly, if someone has so much time and determination as to replace 'argued' to 'unfoundently claimed', please think about others (namely me) who has to go thru each sentence and clean it up not to destroy the valuable imput of others who made contributions later :-) If I spoiled your term paper this way, what would you say to me? :-) Couldn't you find a less destructive way to express your POV?

Contacted North Korea? No proof

Replaced the following:

"Right-wing groups also are reported to dislike Aleph due to Aum's previous attempt to contact North Korea to acquire the weapons they eventually acquired from Russia". [3]

There are many allegations and ideas regarding many things, but as in many of such cases there is absolutely no proof that any Aum member contacted North Korea with anything, there is also no proof that any weapons were acquired from whatever source, including Russia the country. Besides, the page linked does not deal with any weapons matters at all.

As to Japan's right wing protesters, they dislike many things that they consider foreign to Japan's traditional values - America for defeating Japan in WWII and U.S. bases in Okinawa, Russian embassy for not giving back Kuril islands, Koreans for taking low-profile Jobs etc, Chinese for this and that etcetera. Their standard technique of 'peaceful protest' incudes a sort of audio-terrorism, when high-decibel noise is produced from powerful loudspeakers (this is considered legal in Japan). As regards to Aum, these protestations are understandably very unpleasant to Aum's neighbors and obviously the landlords.

As to North Korea. Couple of years ago, a lay Aum follower fled to North Korea where she sought political asylum. This way she tried to get rid of harassment by PSIA, the security service whose main duty is 'to monitor Aum Shinrikyo' which it believes 'remain a serious threat' (before Aum-related incidents there were plans to disband the Agency). The agency tried to convince the woman to spy on Aum from within and threatened with some consequences in case she refuses. The woman has lived in Pyongyang's hotel and finally decided to return back. In her words, secret service agents, now North Korean, were constantly keeping eye on her and basic necessities to which she got used in Japan (such as lipstick) were impossible to obtain. All this story came up in quite idiotic manner when she returned, but initially it was reported by the papers that her trip to North Korea was somehow a grim plot by Aum to establish contact with 'evil regime'. Conclusion: read carefully and double cross-check. ExitControl

Meaningless passage removed

"An American woman, Bridget Melbane, who many believed to be affiliated with the group, was extradited back to Japan after committing several crimes in the US involving stalking and harassment. Her affiliation as of December 19, 2006 could not be verified."

Since the affiliation of that woman 'could not be verified' I suppose we shouldn't put this information into the article? Actually in Japan there was a larger-scale incident where Aum affiliation was suggested by the media: the Boeing 747 hijacking in Hakodate. It later became apparent that the hijacker had no connection whatsoever with Aum and never had, but at the time usual headline read like this: 'member of the outlawed Aum sect (never outlawed) hijacks a Japanese Boeing 747 with 365 passengers on board at the airport in northern Hakodate (correct), demanding the release of the sect's jailed leader (again, never demanded)'.

Cult vs. religious group

A recent edit ([4]) changed "cult" to "religious group". To an outside observer (I am not an editor of this article; I've simply reverted some vandalism here in the past so have it on my watchlist), it seems that this change is against consensus. I've "undone" that edit, and invited the editor here to discuss. Thanks!

Conflict with some sources

There is a conflict with the sources here with the sources in the Buddhism and violence's page, here says it's a syncretic belief system that incorporates facets of Christianity with idiosyncratic interpretations of Yoga, and the writings of Nostradamus but there the sources say that the cult is based upon Buddhist ideas and scriptures. So, who is correct? Rupert loup (talk) 00:24, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

The Christain ideas they took were from the Book of Revelation , the Apocalypse, end of the world ideas. That got mixed in with Hindu and Tibetan Vajrayana Buddhist ideas that they misunderstood and misappropriated (in my opinion). The references in the first paragraph are from Western sources, (The RAND Corporation) I suspect they were less familiar with the Buddhist/Hindu concepts, so they emphasized the sources they were familar with, and would be familiar to their intended Western readers. The first paragraph should be changed to add more of the Eastern elements. GangofOne (talk) 03:02, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

 Done Rupert loup (talk) 16:36, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Dmitry Sigachev

Original: In July 2000, Russian police arrested Dmitri Sigachev, an ex-KGB and former Shinrikyo member, along with four other former Russian Aum members, for stockpiling weapons in preparation for attacking Japanese cities in a bid to free Asahara. Aleph issued a statement saying they "do not regard Sigachev as one of its members".[43]

Will edit out the 'ex-KGB'. KGB connection is speculative, in fact Sigachev was arrested by a KGB successor organisation, the FSB. Sigachev, then young man, was romantically attached to Asahara and dreamed of freeing him from prison, his fantastic plan is said was about threatening the Japanese government. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yuri Kozharov (talk • contribs) 11:35, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Dubious speculation on how Aum believed the Dutch (?) and the Jews are somehow world conspirators

First, on the Jews. In Japan this is a popular conspirological motive, the Jewish business and educational success and this theme of many popular books somehow is interlinked with Japan's defeat in WWII. Aum seem to adopt this theme, adding that there were some 'spiritual' reasons for Jewish success and that this success serves as good example to follow. Second, on the Dutch, this is a speculation, IMO related to some Dutch royalty or something unclear. The Dutch has colonies in the pacific ocean... Never seen mentions of Dutch in the texts. Freemasons - yes, it was believed the world is somehow shadowly run by hidden powerful decision-makers ('the people behind' Russia, China, and the United States) and that somehow Freemasons societies are related to this hidden game of world's powers, serve as some club for the elites or something. Will think and edit text accordingly. Otherwise it is weird, like Aum had unexplainably weird beliefs. Which is not quite so, these themes are very pupular in Japanese conspirology, and conspirological and alternative history books are wildly popular in Japan, this must be reflected, not perceived as some fringe opinios as in say the US. Yuri Kozharov (talk) 12:02, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

For removal: ignoramuses passage describing people 'hanged upside down' and taking LSD as requirement

Original: Its practices remained secret. Initiation rituals often involved the use of hallucinogens, such as LSD. Religious practices often involved extremely ascetic practices claimed to be "yoga". These included everything from renunciants being hung upside down to being given shock therapy.[26]

Comments: Practices are seen on video, get and see, there is no secrecy in yoga exercises and reading texts aloud. No, hallucinogens were not involved, at least to the best of my knowledge, in most cases, therefore 'often' is unjustified. Extremely ascetic 'claimed to be yoga' is a POV. Fact is what is in yoga is in Aum, by yoga I mean serious indian variety, such as when people are trained to become instructors, not some light sports in a gym in America. As to 'being hung upside down' there is no such thing in yoga, although in some schools bands are used to help keeping postures, in medical yoga. There is viparita karani asana, when a yogi 'stands' on his back with legs in the air, that must be it. In yoga there is also literal 'standing on one's head' posture, not practiced in Aum. As to 'electroshock therapy' it is practiced by psychiatrists in psychiatric asylyms on patients committed there against their will, that must be the base of this particular fantasy. In Aum, there is a 'helmet of salvation' which is a regular electro-magnetic sensor used to examine the brain electric activity, yet with it the *recorded* brain activity (brain waves, such as alpha, beta, gamma waves etc) are being transmitted which may cause mild electic irritation of the head. This is not in any way an electroshock. Electroshock is drugging, tying and shocking with high voltage electricity, to somehow 'restart' the brain and is believed by psychiatrists from the 40-50s of XX to be helpful for combating schizophrenia and psychoses (at our age they say only the 'treatment-resistant'). Will delete the entire passage, debates welcome (see above). As to how Marhall and Kaplan made up stuff like this, IMO read about in in psychiatry-related materials, such as MK-Ultra program (used LSD) and forced electroshocks common at the 60s in psychiatry, 'brain washing' of captured troops with propaganda by Viet Kong communists during Viet Nam war etc. Lifton, a Jewish activist and anti-cultist, himself a psychiatrist, may have contributed to their fantasies, his book on Aum was published around the time as Markall and Kapplans. This all smells foul as very far from reality. Per WP:NOR, attributable to a *reliable*, published source and it conforms merely formally, as it is a thick book full of unverified 'research' which looks scientific but is actually a fiction novel based mostly on low quality journalism on this subject of that time— Preceding unsigned comment added by Yuri Kozharov (talk • contribs) 12:20, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

"Aum prisoners": no such

Original: containing millions of U.S. dollars in cash and gold, and cells, many still containing prisoners. In Aum, they has 'solitary practice rooms'. Unlike in prison, where you are locked against your will, a solotary practice could be ended at will. These rooms are not prison 'cells'. Again, as with many contercultists, tabloid journalists and activist 'researchers', the fact they were published does not make them credible. The 'cells with prisoners' can be seen on multiple videos, including made by Aum itself. There were even underground ones. Will further examine the source and report on credibility here, because maybe we should delete.Yuri Kozharov (talk) 13:09, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

How signals purchased were (not) used on insisting on innocence

Original:The group never confessed. Those who carried out attacks did so secretly, without being known to ordinary believers. Asahara broadcast his singing, insisting on his innocence through a radio broadcast on a signal they purchased in Russia and directed toward Japan.[2]

The signals were used until 1995, they are unrelated to the group's legal position. It was the 'Radio Evangelion Tes Basileyas' (greek: Evangelion of the Holy Heavens) which consisted of very basic introductory-level sermons, advertisment of sorts. Again, sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yuri Kozharov (talk • contribs) 14:52, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Wording.

Original: n October 1989, the group's negotiations with Tsutsumi Sakamoto, an anti-cult lawyer threatening a lawsuit against them which could potentially bankrupt the group

Sakamoto was not 'threatening', he was not an extortionist, he was a class action lawsuit lawyer who already bankrupted the San Myong Moon's group in Japan and who was proceeding with full speed with Aum, who murdered him to stop him. Again, journalism. White innocent Sakamoto and sinister illogical cultists. Will remove. Journalism. There are established sources on the matter, for example, Mourakami's intervies of Sakamoto's office co-workers. That he was into girls and cash, not at all any do-goodieYuri Kozharov (talk) 14:57, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

2016 resolution to work on the article

Well, now when I remembered that the ExitControl guy who made many edits (most by now lost already) in 00s, and as I noticed a lot of made-up stuff later disproved or not confirmed, though of course properly linked and all, I will attempt to investigate what is written and step-by-step, by one edit at a time, so that not to appear vandalistic, to remove that all entirely. Here I will publish explanations, let it be a fact checking exercise.

1) Hijacked a plane: hijacker denied being Aum member, denies anything attributed to him by the media. http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Cult-link-unclear-in-hijack-of-Japan-plane-3143553.php

For this reason, passage removed entirely. And what lengthy, so much detail, and all made up. Sorced properly however. Done. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yuri Kozharov (talk • contribs) 19:51, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

2) Next. Hayakava buying firearms, helicopter, battle tank, nuclear technologies, whatever else sinister in Russia. To begin with, except the helicopter, which never flew (was not assembled), but this is from memory, I will now fact check prior to removal... Would be easier4 to remove like 70% of the text as a start, but again people would be insisting these was all valuable proper info, so let us see what it is and why to remove.

The very start results: Japanese police sours also allege that Hayakawa brought pistol models to Japan from Russia in the Spring of 1994 in order to produce // http://fas.org/irp/congress/1995_rpt/aum/part06.htm

Unconfirmed. See, this is credible. Now, the New York Times, just compare: had tried to buy Russian nuclear warheads

Uhum, warheads, OK, NYT is a good brand, but it is not a credible source. You check and could not verify, as I said before, it traces to police claims, usually said by someone who 'refused to be identified', and so a journalist in this manner may make up whatever. No Pulitzers for that, but ... people earn their bread this way, but of course article should not rely on sources like these. Note, this is not what normally is understood as a tabloid. Yet, you see, with rare subjects like this, standards are pretty low. I am reading thru other similar pages, titles like Doom Weapons, Tesla weapons, conspiracies in Australia to test weapons etc. Australians denied such media reports as speculation, Russians (just checked) did not say anything on it, but stories like this pop up in tabloid archives of that time and even major papers. No, really, a major nuclear power to sell warheads to some tourist, who does not represent any state or whoever. Then why Iran or North Korea didn't just buy those warheads, if there is a black market really in Russia for them. Ok, enough for this, here is a prooflink in Russian: http://www.kommersant.ru/doc/176840 (FSB, the Russian internal security service and Japanese-Russian University both denied allegations on purchase of any weapons by Aum in Russia in 1997). Today as I write this is 2016. You see, this is not just my private POV or prejudice, this is a real problem with this article - credibility of sources and wording. Like a snowball, kept accumulating self-repeating made-up stuff, now a layman thinks that must be all true as so many sources uniformly repeat basically the same stuff. Yet credible sources do not confirm. In another case, where the event (weapons purchase) did take place, measures were taken, people got imprisoned, but this one is not.

Deleted Hayakawa passage. He has been in Russia, we may leave this as this is true, but what importance does it have. Hayakava is said to be involved in construction, not any weapons, by the way, but whatever, his occupation is not that important. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yuri Kozharov (talk • contribs) 20:12, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

3) As this is straight in the eye, although of course would be more PC to start with outright lies, but: "is a Japanese doomsday cult".

Japanese - true. But doomesday cult is basically when a religion says an end of times will come and then either we must bring it close or survive it... I thought it was really a Buddhist new religious group in Japan. How is that: a cult, and a doomesday cult. Let's keep it so for some time. This is a derogatory term and not very factual, but many commentators, scholars and the like, especially media, adopted and used this definition. Does it tell much on the phenomena of Aum? I mean, that it is a Japanese cult - what comes to mind that they must be worshipping the Emperor and await some... I'm baffled. This really is about the wording. I dislike it. Its calling names. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yuri Kozharov (talk • contribs) 20:20, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

4) Removed for some time passage on Sigachev, as it contains libelous claims and one more small one as incomplete. Explanation follows: Text: In July 2000, Russian police arrested Dmitri Sigachev, an ex-KGB and former Shinrikyo member, along with four other former Russian Aum members, for stockpiling weapons in preparation for attacking Japanese cities in a bid to free Asahara. Aleph issued a statement saying they "do not regard Sigachev as one of its members".[42]

First, the KGB was dissolved and reformed into three separate bodies after the dissolution of Soviet Union, so suppose its 1992-1993, Sigachev did not approach a legal age at the time, in Russia it is 18, for this reason he could't be employed by the KGB, one need to finish university and then start training with the KGB, again if it is not later period, but that period Sigachev was already with Aum, see. Later he was involved in his romantically influenced activisms and was sent to prisons for weapons possession and preparation of a terrorist act. Next, along with four. No, with three, he is the forth one. Then, the Japanese woman who sought asylum in North Korea did really do so, to evade harassment by Japanese security police, but did not like it there and returned back to Japan. Since Sigachev affair took place in Russia, there are sources, even a documentary with interviews with Sigachev and his friends. For this reason will reword more appropriately and put a corresponding like to Russian-language media (Sigachev did not dispute basic facts on the crimes attributed to him, so I assume in this case sources are OK).

Text:In August 2003, a woman believed to be an ex-Aum Shinrikyo member took refuge in North Korea via China.[43] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yuri Kozharov (talk • contribs) 20:40, 27 January 2016 (UTC)