Talk:No-go area

(Untitled)

Shanty-towns in developing countries and certain neighbourhoods in developed countries (with a heavy concentration of minority groups) have sometimes been described as no-go areas, a controversial label in the latter case. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.42.6.66 (talk) 10:53, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Update and clarification

Some Native American reservations are no-go areas or zones but the government of the United States still has different types of controls at its disposal. Leper colonies were also no go zones or areas and in such, religious authority was often the law. Western countries knowledge of the phrase and assimilation into the popular vernacular in the Western Hemisphere begins with the Charlie Hebdo terror incident. The phrase no go area is now linked in the collective consciousness with Islamic extremism, with Paris and France, and with Charlie Hebdo. This current event has driven an evolution in semantic definition as events sometimes will drive the grassroots. The change in status of this phrase warrants update and clarification. The entry now is not informative enough for students. Paul Escudero (talk) 21:24, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles are intended to be based on material verifiable in published reliable sources. If you are proposing a change to the article, please provide references, and be more specific about your proposed changes. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:41, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Andy is the existence of Native American reservations created by treaty, protected tribal preserves in the Amazon and the historical existence of leper colonies and their administration by religious orders not common enough knowledge as to constitute facts? I can provide citations for native treaties, leper colonies and the like but they are extraneous to the real change which is that there are different types of rules for different types of no go zones. I notice that the article provides no documentation when it claims wrongly that no go areas represent the complete loss of the authorities ability to exert sovereignty. I propose that definition of No-go be amended for better understanding sociologically and politically as well as semantically to include the following...... There are different types of no-go zones or no-go areas. The definition has evolved through military, political, geographic, and sociological definitions. Currently its most broadly used definition would be a state within a state. The ultimate expression of an ethnic ghetto, a neighborhood so insular that persons from the state within which it is located either can not or choose not to enter. A no-go area implies some or complete autonomy. Police from the state within which it is located do not patrol or have limited ability to enforce the laws of the larger state. In Europe and France the historical example is the Casbah or Kasbah and is sometimes a walled fortress or keep. Police functions are handled internally by those in control of the community and laws are set by them within the zone. A longstanding example of this in the US would be the reservations of the Native American Nations. US treaties recognize them as sovereign and allow Native American tribes most legislative rights. Indigenous people in the Amazon river basin inhabit no go zones of a different type. Leper colonies are well documented throughout history and usually subject to legal administration by religious orders. The Charlie Hebdo terror incident brought the existence of multiple Islamic controlled no-go areas in France into the Western collective consciousness.... A header for France and discussion of no go zones in France. I observed these live reports all day from French citizens on BBC FRENCH 24 CNN FOX MSNBC and other live streams all day. Is a factual description of concerns I witnessed voiced on these outlets by real people not credible as source? So my fine point is the wrong definition provides no citation. I'm happy to provide citation for native treaties, historical authenticity of leper colonies, and protected areas for indigenous tribes if we agree that changes are warranted to no-go zone and no-go area. Paul Escudero (talk) 22:24, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Please place new posts at the bottom of the page, with a blank line between - the page needs to be kept in chronological order.

As for your comments, no, 'common knowledge' is not acceptable. The article has far too much unsourced material already (I am currently trying to rectify that, without a great deal of success), and adding more isn't going to improve things. Particularly when your supposed 'common knowledge' seems to consist of a cobbled-together collection of disparate subjects. As far as I'm aware, Native American Reservations have never been referred to as 'no-go areas', and neither have leper colonies. And as for France, if there is material on this, cite it. There is no way whatsoever that we are going to include material on such a sensitive subject without proper sourcing. Though frankly, given the problems I'm having trying to find sources for what we have already, I may well propose the article for deletion - Wikipedia is not a dictionary, and unless a single source can be found to draw the existing content together, it may have to be deleted as synthesis. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:47, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

The topic is too important to be deleted. It's an important topic and the questioned examples clearly illustrate that not all no go zones are places where the authorities have "lost control" The definition is evolving and has codified surrounding the French situation. There is no evidence that no go zones existence in France means that French authorities have lost control in those areas and are unable to enforce their sovereignty. The phrase was used often over the last 72 hours by media outlets in relation to Paris and France. This up to the minute usage shows that no go area should be interpreted more broadly by its factual existence. Rewrite in progress Paul Escudero (talk) 23:19, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Please read Wikipedia:No original research. Your personal opinion as to what your 'examples' illustrate or what 'up to the minute usage' may mean is of no relevance to article content. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:48, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

France

This topic has essentially been a battle of Political Correctness, but the sad reality is that Europe has a problem with unassimilated immigrants and terrorism, which leads to the undeniable fact that there are de facto enclaves in various cities where it would be unwise to go. Even after too many terrorist events to recite, some are in denial about this and this is at the heart of this entire "Talk" page.

Surprised to see no mention of the no go zones in France.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/01/12/paris-attacks-prompt-fears-france-muslim-no-go-zones-incubating-jihad/ http://sig.ville.gouv.fr/Atlas/ZUS/

- A Canadian Toker (talk) 01:49, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps because the reports are greatly exaggerated: http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/nogozones.asp .Sjö (talk) 09:20, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

It is awful to see this article censored, and reliable sources being called fringe on my talk page. If an editor disagrees with a source verifying content, remove the source and give an explanation in a talk page, don't threaten that I'll "get in trouble". Explain civilly why there is a disagreement with certain sources on the article's talk page, and leave the content if there are still sources that verify the content.
Multiple reliable sources, including Frontpage Mag, Washington Times, and The Guardian, have been removed from this article. There are other sources from The Telegraph, Fox News, The independent, The Independent Journal Review, CBN News, etc.. If there are sources that contradict this, than provide WP:BALANCE, by providing sources that oppose this view. Better having both views, than censoring one that an editor may disagree with.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 18:16, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

I have not yet checked all your sources, but neither FrontPage Magazine nor Christian Broadcasting Network are good sources. The Guardian only reported on claims by Nigel Farage, a British fringe right-winger. The Guardian did not adopt the position, so it was misused as a source. Ditto for The Independent. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:40, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Why not then attribute the source? There are enough claims that these areas exist. To out right remove it, removes verified content from a very small article.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 20:22, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

One way to do it is say W, X and Y say A, and Z says B. It can be presented neutrally, and not in Wikipedia voice.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 20:22, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Well, looking at your "pro" sources, they all go back to one guy, Soeren Kern, at a rather notoriously biased think tank. So there is very little weight behind these claims, and, in my opinion, no reason to include them. Certainly not in a way that falsely suggests three independent sources for the fringe side. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:14, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

(ec)The content was not 'verified'. To the contrary, the sources largely either failed to support the claim made (that " "no-go" areas, created by Islamic extremist [sic]" exist in France), or in at least one case actually contradicted it: Multi-Ethnic France: Immigration, Politics, Culture and Society, supposedly cited for these 'Islamic extremist' no-go areas actually describes "multi ethnic" gangs, with members who "know virtually nothing of Islam", and who's assertion of territorial control is largely limited to graffiti, slang and rap music: "The transnational cultural codes on which these gangs draw most heavily originate in the Black Atlantic, a cultural archipelago stretching from Sub-Saharan Africa through the Caribbean and into the black ghettos of the United States." This (as also described in other sources cited) is a gang culture, prone to elements of criminality, as found often elsewhere in the poorer parts of cities - it has next to nothing to do with Islamic extremism. Misrepresenting credible sources in this way to bolster the inflammatory claims of partisan sources like Frontpage Magazine has no place in a responsible encyclopaedia. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:31, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Public discussion of the phrases "no-go zone" and "no-go area" entered the evening news here in the U.S. last night with MSNBC 1/16/2015 reporting that they can find no evidence of Islamic no go areas existing in France and in fact played video from French mainstream television mocking the idea. The phrases are in a new era of public awareness and being discussed largely in relation to France and Charlie Hebdo. We reiterate that simply by their creation they invite field spectrum interpretation with people easily arriving at definitions and related examples relative to their academic specialty. Synthesis or not we are perplexed that the wiki is publicly contemplating deletion of this entry at the moment when it has become most tangible, and is on the most lips being discussed. Curious.Paul Escudero (talk) 14:45, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

@Paul Escudero: - MSNBC may explain the problem. See [1] There's a reason people stopped watching. Also, read the Oxford Journal entry I posted below that describes a 21st Century use of the term, although it is not exclusive to non-Muslim no-go areas, but those areas should be included nonetheless. Atsme☯^Consult 20:10, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

The Oxford Journals Journal of Islamic Studies does indeed describe a 21st-Century use of the term - to describe, amongst other things, how British Muslims regard the area around some pubs in the Birmingham suburbs a town in northern England as 'no-go areas' - see this quotation [2] I posted below. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:37, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

I have tagged the section as unbalanced. There are multiple reliable sources that verify the view that there are no-go areas in France, more than just Fox News. Wikipedia is not here to say one side is correct and another side is not. I understand the usage of the word "allegetion" as not all sources agree, however, the way it is written, it is non-neutral and does so in a way that discredits Fox News and Bobby Jindal, and thus has BLP issues written all over it as well.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 05:56, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

What 'reliable sources' are those? AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:01, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Gatestone Institute, http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5128/france-no-go-zones , which others have written off.

William Kilpatrick (2012). Christianity, Islam, and Atheism: The Struggle for the Soul of the West. Ignatius Press. pp. 77–78. ISBN 978-1-58617-696-9.

Amikam Nachmani (January 2010). Europe and Its Muslim Minorities: Aspects of Conflict, Attempts at Accord. Sussex Academic Press. pp. 64–65. ISBN 978-1-84519-400-0.

Steven L. Jacobs (1 January 2009). Maven in Blue Jeans: A Festschrift in Honor of Zev Garber. Purdue University Press. pp. 357–358. ISBN 978-1-55753-521-4.

Glenn Beck (20 November 2007). An Inconvenient Book: Real Solutions to the World's Biggest Problems. Simon and Schuster. p. 44. ISBN 978-1-4165-8004-1.

These are but a few. As editors we do not have to agree with the sources, even if we see them as having a political or opinionated point of view. We are to give them due weight, and present them in a neutral manor. If we want, we can also include opposing viewpoints as is what the significant amount of current content is already in this article per WP:BALANCE.

The usage of the term no-go in regards to France is something that precedes the 2015 terrorist attacks in Paris. Therefore, these sources, may provide context.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 07:34, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

See also

• Theodore Dalrymple, The Barbarians at the Gates of Paris, City journal, Autumn 2002;
• David Pryce-Jones, Jews, Arabs, and French Diplomacy: A Special Report, Commentary Magazine, 2005-05;
• Melanie Phillips, Why France is burning, 2005-11-07;
• "Hundreds of Muslim ghettos already de facto follow sharia, not French law." in some Fjordman's book;
• Daniel Pipes, The 751 No-Go Zones of France, 2006 - 2015;
• Robert Spencer, The 751 No-Go Zones of France, 2006-11-24.
• Daniel Johnson, J'accuse, Literary Review, 2006-12;
• L’Allée de la Perdition, Gates of Vienna, 2007-03-11;
• Paul Belien, Sensitive Urban Areas: Has France Become a Narco State?, The Brussels Journal, 2008-01-16;
• Thomas Landen, From the Ivory Tower: Newsweek Sees No Danger, The Brussels Journal, 2009-07-16
• Thomas Landen, Eurabian Safari [3], Gatestone Institute / The Brussels Journal, 2009-08-27;
• Soeren Kern, European ‘No-Go’ Zones for Non-Muslims Proliferating, Gatestone Institute, 2011-08-22,
• Soeren Kern, Amnesty International and Muslim Discrimination in Europe, Gatestone Institute, 2012-05-10;
• Soeren Kern, France Seeks to Reclaim 'No-Go' Zones [4], Gatestone Institute, 2012-08-24;
• Native French under Attack in Muslim Areas [5], Christian Broadcasting Network, 2014-04-11;
• Robert Spencer, European 'No-Go' Zones: Fact or Fiction?, 2015-01-21;

Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 16:43, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

The first requirement of sources is that they be reliable for the subject matter concerned. Which clearly excludes Glenn Beck's clueless drivel about the "Frenchy-French". And no, we aren't going to cite the Gatestone Institute for anything. They are a partisan propaganda outfit. If there are serious academic sources discussing 'no-go areas' and actually explaining in detail what they mean, we can of course discuss inclusion, but I see no reason whatsoever why WP:WEIGHT should apply to the repetitive uninformed propaganda of Islamophobic U.S.-based rabble-rousers. They are not experts on France. They are not experts on 'no-go areas'. Their uninformed opinion on Europe is clearly driven by their own ideological hangups rather than on any verifiable evidence. When asked to provide actual evidence for their claims, it is rarely forthcoming. A few (notably Danial Pipes, who I see you are still citing) have had the common decency to admit that their claims were false. WP:NPOV policy requires proportional coverage of "all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic". It does not require inclusion of politically-motivated partisan propaganda from people who's 'expertise' consists of making shit up on the other side of the Atlantic. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:19, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Why not cite Glenn Beck? Cause some editor says no? Attribute it and so it's not in Wikipedia voice, but don't censor it cause it doesn't agree with a POV which an editor does or does not share. We have met WP:BURDEN. To exclude this content, at least in some form violates WP:NOTCENSOR & WP:NEU.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 05:50, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

I suggest the following: far-right activist, fear monguer, conspiracy theorist, anti-France racist Glenn Beck wrote in a 2007 book that there are no-go zones in France, without location and without evidence.

Becks opinions, while objectionable to some should not be censored, IMHO. That being said, -sarcasm- love how reliable sources here are just ignored. -/sarcarsm- Books published by Purdue University Press & Sussex Academic Press are ignored.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 18:58, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Becks opinions are of no relevance to this topic. This is an encyclopaedia. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:03, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

@AndyTheGrump: Please notice that some of the text added yesterday is very inspired and near copy-pasted from this Gatestone article, which was added and deleted a few hours before. Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 21:43, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

@RightCowLeftCoast: what is your opinion about my wording "Far-right activist, fear monguer, conspiracy theorist, anti-France racist Glenn Beck wrote in a 2007 book that there are no-go zones in France, without location and without evidence" ? Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 21:43, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Please see WP:LABEL & WP:BLP. All inappropriate.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 22:55, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Then we can not mention Glenn Beck with the needed WP:ATTRIBUTE. Unfortunate. Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 22:21, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

NO. This article need not be have an attack statement on a living person. For attribution, just state "Glenn Beck wrote in 2007...". There is no need to add quantify who Beck is, there is an article for that. We need not make the readers judgement about Beck for them, that's what all those labels would do.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 05:38, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Interesting. Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 20:23, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Sweden

Just in case somebody googles for sources and comes across reports of Swedish no-go areas: those reports are false, see Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2014 November 30 (which has a link to a WP:RS saying it's false). Sjö (talk) 09:24, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

• The page you link to is a straw man. It discusses whether the no go areas are Muslim, not whether there are no-go areas or not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by XavierItzm (talk • contribs) 20:05, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

• • As there does not seem to be any opposition to the issue that the Sweden entry was deleted under false pretences, I think I will add it back. XavierItzm (talk) 03:12, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

• • • No. Not without a translation. If only because Google translate suggests that the first source cited explicitly contradicts the material in our article: 'The police do not use the term "no go" zones.' [6] AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:17, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

The post was made in the context of the discussion about Muslim no-go areas and the fact that Sweden was originally added to the article as an example of Muslim no-go areas. I could have made it clearer that it was in that context. As for whether the areas in the report are no-go areas or not, by the current definition of the article they aren't and I only found one reliable Swedish source calling them "no-go areas" and that's the editorial that AndyTheGrump linked. Sjö (talk) 03:32, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Can you confirm what Google translate seems to indicate - that the source also states that the police don't refer to the areas in question as 'no-go zones'? AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:36, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

That's correct. Sjö (talk) 03:57, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't think that what the police calls them is relevant. They have political interests in not calling a spade a spade. Regardless of the term, the areas are no-go areas for individual patrols: police cars will be vandalized, policemen attacked and residents turn to mafia law for order-keeping. There are gradations in the term; areas that are accessible to police or military only in heavy convoy are no-go zones, regardless of whether private individuals can access them. And, the question is pretty old, it wasn't invented yesterday by Fox News. For instance a metro ticket inspection was reported to require 20 officers with an immigration officer to assist; usually they work in pairs. --vuo (talk) 10:30, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Could you explain what political interests the police would have for downplaying a problem where lack of long-term resources is seen by the respondents as a contributing factor?

The report states that there have been instances of police cars being vandalised and policemen attack, but also says that in most areas police can patrol on foot without fear of being atteacked. Nowhere does it say anything about convoys. I live in one of the areas mentioned in the report, and I can assure you that I have seen police on foot patrol. The report describes areas that are troubled with criminality, but not to the extent that you describe. Unlike you, I think that it's important to note that the report doesn't call the areas no-go areas or anything similar, nor does it say that the areas can't be patrolled by police. (And to be clear, even if you didn't mention it, it never even mentions Islam or Muslims.)

I haven't seen any news report about a ticket control requiring 20 officers, and if there was such a report I'm pretty sure it had nothing to do with the alleged no-go areas. Sjö (talk) 11:17, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

OK, per Sjö we have one "one reliable Swedish source calling them "no-go areas" (referring to the 55 areas) and we have the polisen.se report of the 55 areas, with detailed maps of each one. Seems to me there is no reason to restore the Sweden 55-no go areas entry that was deleted under the false argument that it had anything to do with Muslims, which the entry never did, and only racists would impute to the words that which was never said. — Preceding unsigned comment added by XavierItzm (talk • contribs) 22:08, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

I can see no evidence of any consensus for restoring anything. What I can see is clear evidence that the deleted material misrepresented the source cited. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:11, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

So, are you disputing that
(1) we have one "one reliable Swedish source calling them "no-go areas"" (referring to the 55 areas), as Sjö said
(2) or are you disputing that we have the polisen.se report of the 55 areas, with detailed maps of each one, as documented on the government site?
because if you are not disputing either, it is not clear what your objection is, other than obfuscating the issue. XavierItzm (talk) 02:18, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm not 'obfuscating' anything. I'm pointing out that the material in our article appears to have misrepresented at least one of the sources. If you are claiming that the police report refers to 'no-go areas', can you quote the relevant passage so we can check the translation. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:29, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

We have, to quote Sjö,
""one reliable Swedish source calling them "no-go areas" (referring to the 55 areas)".
This RS is sufficient to restore the entry that was deleted under the false pretences that it had anything to do with Muslims, which the entry never claimed, and yet was used as the pretext to delete it.
In addition, we have the 55-areas+maps report straight from the government site, which, as has been noted before (03:57, 23 January 2015), does not mention the specific term. Not clear why the question keeps being repeated, other than an effort to obfuscate.
However, since the RS mentions the report, there is no reason not to link to the report to which the RS makes reference. XavierItzm (talk) 02:51, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

This article is about 'no-go areas'. If a source doesn't refer to 'no-go areas', there is no reason to cite it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:04, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

We have, to quote Sjö,
"one reliable Swedish source calling them "no-go areas" " (referring to the 55 areas).
Seems to me one RS is good enough. The entry should never have been removed. XavierItzm (talk) 03:33, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Material that misrepresents sources should certainly be removed. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:34, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

The source you refer to is an editorial, which are usually not considered reliable sources for statements of fact. It is a reliable source for the opinion of that editor, but then we have to consider WP:UNDUE and it would IMO be undue to include them as no-go areas based on one editorial when the report itself doesn't call the areas that. Sjö (talk) 12:06, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

What about this report where an official from Swedish police, on camera, describes some areas as: "police officers and also fire brigade, ambulance services, when they are coming to these areas they are attacked, the kids are throwing stones at them ... Let's say there are are more or less riots so that police have been attacked by youngsters (or so). Of course, there is a lot of firearms, handguns especially." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXMkcZBvq7U — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.103.86.125 (talk) 20:12, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

No. There are reliable sources that contradict the claim that there are no-go zones. The Christian Broadcasting Network is a questionable source per discussions at WP:RSN. The report mentioned in the video is the same one that prompted the discussion above and at the Reference Desk, so the video adds nothing new. Chief Inspector Lars Öjelind was interviewed when the report was released and he didn't say anything much different than he did in the video. The report itself gives no support to the idea that there are no-go zones. So, no.Sjö (talk) 07:30, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

Birmingham

The statement by the UK Prime Minister isn't meant to establish whether Birmingham is or is not in fact a no-go area. It's to indicate that use of this term was of international note. I think it does belong in the article. Perhaps this belongs in an "erroneously claimed" section?? — Brianhe (talk) 01:44, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Given that Steven Emerson has clearly and unambiguously retracted his ill-informed comments about Birmingham, [7] we now have no source whatsoever asserting that Birmingham is any sort of no-go area. A section with no sources is clearly undue... AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:49, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

There are plenty of RS sources all over the internet we can cite. Emerson made his stupid comment in a television interview, not in a written article. He apologized, and admitted he made a mistake. I agree with Brianhe in that it should be mentioned just like it was before you reverted it. The France comment belongs in here, too, and I'll add sources that dispute what Farage said about France having no-go areas. Atsme☯^Consult 02:05, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Brianhe self-reverted. And I have seen no reliable source now claiming that Birmingham is any sort of no-go area. [8] As for France, please find some proper sources which actually discuss the subject in depth - basing sections on sound-bites by partisan foreign politicians is entirely inappropriate. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:10, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Ok. Atsme☯^Consult 02:14, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Disagree. I self-reverted so we could discuss instead of edit warring. The PM made the statement; it was printed in The Guardian, a reliable source. It is now noteworthy, whether or not factual. The PM of any country rebutting a claim that a part of his country is a "no-go area" is a notable use of the term and could be included in the article, IMHO. — Brianhe (talk) 02:16, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

The PM made a statement that nobody apparently disagrees with - that Birmingham isn't (by any definition offered) a no-go area. Why do we need to include non-no-go areas in an article on no-go areas? AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:25, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Why do we have an article on Phlogiston theory? Because misconceptions are a part of the historical record which is reported in an encyclopedia. And a misconception refuted by a head of state, about his state, is especially notable. — Brianhe (talk) 07:02, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Phlogiston theory was widely accepted amongst the scientific community, and its replacement by later explanations involving oxidisation is a significant part of the history of scientific advance. 'Man claiming to be expert says something stupid' is run of the mill news-filler, and of zero long-term historical or encyclopaedic significance. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:06, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Even if it rises to the PM's note? Now a probable US presidential candidate is using the term too [9]. Are you going to lobby against every notable person using the term? — Brianhe (talk) 05:29, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Definition

The definition given in the lede ("A no-go area or no-go zone is a region where the ruling authorities have lost control and are unable to enforce their sovereignty") is entirely unsourced. Furthermore, it is readily apparent that regardless of what the phrase originally meant, it is now used in a far broader context - to the extent that it appears almost devoid of any meaning beyond 'place where some people fear lawlessness'. Given that Wikipedia is not a dictionary, and that we cannot impose our own definition on a phrase, I have to seriously question the merits of retaining this article, if it is to become a dumping-ground for political soundbites. Accordingly, I would have to suggest that unless a single reliable source can be found which gathers the disparate meanings of the phrase, and gives some sort of clear and unambiguous core definition, the article will need deletion. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:23, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Today "No-go" refers to areas that are off-limits to non-Muslims. The lede will have to be changed, properly sourced, and the existing sections could possibly be combined to reflect the history of the term. Not sure if the original intent was even remotely close to what it is today. Perhaps a speedy-delete, and then whoever wants to create a new article should do so?? Atsme☯^Consult 02:38, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

No. We are not going to recreate the article around a right-wing soundbite. Particularly since as yet we have no reliable source actually giving the definition you have used. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:01, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Other sources establishing the "no-zone"....

• Published academic source, Chapter 35 in L. Back, J. Solomos (Eds), Theories of race and racism. London: Routledge, (2004) The paper evaluates the construction of certain ‘no-go’ zones in the UK and Pakistan as perceived by Muslims. [Asian Journal of Criminology 11/2008; 3(2):159-171. DOI: 10.1007/s11417-007-9045-9] [10].
• MSN article - The UKIP leader who wants Britain out of EU has said ghettos in French cities have become no-go zones for non-Muslims [11],
• Ram Ohri's article in the India Facts Research Center website, "Police must erase Islamic No-Go zones across India", [12],
• article in HNGN - Swedish law enforcement has handed over control of more than 55 "no-go zones" [13],
• book, 9/11, Stealth Jihad and Obama by Rohini DeSilva, [14] which elaborates on the no-go zones,
• another book, Islamic Violence in America's Streets, by Ronald K. Pierce, pg 70, a section on No-Go Zones/Parallel Communities, [15] - there are plenty more. Atsme☯^Consult 05:02, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Do you actually understand Wikipedia policy on reliable sourcing? We don't base article content on lunatic-fringe nonsense like '9/11, Stealth Jihad and Obama' [16] - a book that claims that “Obama is waging a Stealth Jihad on this country. Read this book. You will see for yourself.” [17] I'm sure there is plenty more deranged Islamophobic nonsense about, but this is an encyclopaedia, not a toilet wall. AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:47, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree with AndyTheGrump here. This needs reliable sourcing, what you have there isn't. Sjö (talk) 06:02, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree. In particular, the term is much broader - see the BBC on drug-related no-go areas in Brazil, the Christian Science Monitor on no-go areas in Johannesburg, Die Welt on Neo-Nazi influence in Eastern Germany, and I could easily find more. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:05, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

And then there is the problem of definitions. I've not got hold of the full version of the academic text cited as yet, [18] but the abstract sems to be defining the term for the purpose of that study thus: "In the case of Muslims in the UK and Karachi, it may be understood as constituting a physical space avoided for the perceived significant likelihood of becoming a victim of crime whilst frequenting the area." The study clearly isn't referring to "areas that are off-limits to non-Muslims" at all.

Furthermore, the Swedish 'example' discussed has previously been discussed - in the thread almost immediately above this one. The original source for it (a Swedish police report) apparently says nothing about Muslims, or Islam. The claims seem to have originated on questionable right-wing U.S. websites, and been repeated by less-reputable sections of the media without any attempt at validation. This seems to be a recurring pattern with such stories - they are generally reports about 'somewhere else' (usually a foreign country), picked up and repeated by the media uncritically. As with the Birmingham example, the more they are looked into the less substance there appears to be to them. Assuming that the stories amount to anything in the first place - Islamic Violence in America's Streets[19] for example merely asserts that 'no-go areas' exist in parts of Europe without actually saying where they are. Not a reliable source for anything. We cannot take vague assertions from partisan commentators as fact. And we certainly can't redefine the scope of this article to exclude real, concrete examples of 'no-go areas' like the well-documented example of Belfast and Derry in early 1970s Northern Ireland - where the IRA had actually set up barricades and roadblocks, ran armed patrols round the streets, and effectively operated as a state within a state. Something that not even the most rabid commentators on alleged Muslim 'no-go areas' seems to be claiming. If these claims merit inclusion in this article at all, it needs to be made clear that the sources are questionable, the assertions vague, and the concrete evidence lacking. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:56, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

* The claim that the 55 Swedish no-go areas published by the Swedish Police on the Swedish Police website in any way refers to muslims is a fallacy of relevance, a contrived argument to delete the sub-entry. Nowhere on the no-go areas entry of Sweden was anything said about muslims, yet the conversation about muslims was used to delete it. XavierItzm (talk) 12:36, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

References

I think you're too generous, it should be made clear that in some cases (like Birmingham and Sweden) the claims are fabricated. Sjö (talk) 19:26, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

I really don't care either way. Have at it. Atsme☯^Consult 19:45, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Actually, I do care and I don't agree with your position. Your comment about "questionable right-wing sources" conflicts with WP:PAG and clearly dismisses the fact that I provided several RS that do meet the smell test for WP:RS, one of which was a published academic paper, another from an MSN article (so my sources are not all about right-wing), another from an academic research group, and one or two books from accredited authors. Before you condemn my sources, show me something that backs up the unreliable claims, other than opinionated blanket statements. Cherrypicking a few sources that are questionable doesn't make all the sources unreliable. Be specific. I was also curious to know at what point you decided to assume guardianship, WP:OWN, of this article? It is clearly an ambiguous, unencyclopedic start-class article that is better suited for Wiktionary or deletion as it sits now. I could understand guardianship of a GA or FA, but seriously? A stub that barely meets start-class? Atsme☯^Consult 21:50, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Can you quote text from the academic paper that supports your claim that 'Today "No-go" refers to areas that are off-limits to non-Muslims'? As I've already stated, the abstract seems to be describing something else entirely. And as has already been pointed out (I could provide many more examples), the suggestion that 'no-go area' solely refers to areas supposedly controlled by Muslims is amply falsified by sources referring to areas with no Muslim involvement at all. As for MSN, they make no claim regarding no-go areas themselves - instead they report the partisan soundbite of a politician. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:05, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Maybe I can actually do better. I found a few more published academic and/or institutional research papers: (please excuse informal citations):

• [20] or [21] - eScholarship - University of California - PDF pg 19 (actual pg 487)- Hum Rights Rev (2009) 10:469-492 - DOI 10.1007/s12142-009-0118-2 - Stockholm Syndrome: Radical Islam and the European Response by Alex Schulman, 30 January 2009, "Later that year, two Christian clerics were prohibited from handing out religious pamphlets in a "Muslim area" and were accused of a hate crime for doing so by one of the Muslim law enforcement officers hired to establish a better relationship between majority-Islamic neighborhoods and the British state. Around the same time, the Bishop of Rochester, unwisely spurning his boss, spoke out against the "no-go zones" that were many Muslim neighborhoods [22]. He was then denounced as "Islamophobic" even though such zones clear do exist - indeed, have been publicly agitated for by the same people who then censured the Bishop for pointing them out - and placed under police protection with his family after receiving death threats.
• [23] Radical Islam in Europe - p.47 - WINTER 2010 - Leslie S. Lebl - 2009 Elsevier Ltd on behalf of Foreign Policy Research Institute - "Elements of Islamic law, or sharia, are already replacing Western law and "no-go" areas are emerging, areas that European authorites dare not enter." Societal Integration and Radical Islam (running head)
• [24] NOTE: Cannot be cited - only for research purposes - Pg 10 - title: Societal Integration and Radical Islam Among Muslim Immigrants in Europe and the United States by Ghada Wahdan - NOTE: this work is a research proposal for partial fulfillment of a Degree Masters of Criminology - Regis University - October 2011, but the passage cited is from the writings of Sorean Kern, 2011 who teaches international relations at Universidad Antonio de Nebrija, a private university in Madrid. Disorganization Theory - The "No-Go" zones are areas that are under the control of Muslims and off limits to non-Muslims. These areas function and operate as "microstates governed by Shari'a Law" (Kern, 2011). These areas are not under the control of the host country, and authorities are unable to provide basic public aid such as law enforcement assistance, fire or medical services (Kern, 2011).
• [25] - Race & Class - published by Sage Publications (on behalf of Institute of Race Relations) DOI: 10.1177/0306396806066636 Race Class 2006; 48; 1 - You Are Now Entering Eurabia, pg 5 - Like most proponents of the Eurabian future, Blankley already sees the shape of things to come in the ‘Muslim no-go zones’ in European cities where the police ‘dare not enter’.
• [26] I also found the following at the website for the local news in the Birmingham Mail titled The Area of Birmingham That Are No-Go Areas For White People, dated 9 Jan 2009. Dr Mohammed Naseem, the chairman of Birmingham Central Mosque, blamed the Government for the fears over immigration. He said: “If the white working class in Birmingham do feel betrayed, then it is the fault of successive Governments, it has nothing to do with race or immigration or anything like that. I found the article interesting in light of current events.

At the very least, all of the sources validate ubiquity of the term "no-go zone" as it relates to inclusion of my original edit. I didn't read all of the documents, but during a quick scan I did see mention of specific areas. Atsme☯^Consult 04:17, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

See confirmation bias and affirming the consequent. You have been trawling the net for uses of "no-go zone|area" in connection with muslims. But the method does not build support for your claim. It's neither surprising nor contested that some sources use the term in this context (although I'm a bit surprised how pitiful your booty is). You search for muslim no-go areas and then conclude from some instances of them that all no-go areas are muslim, and are so by definition. I could just as well search for "red" and "communism", and deduce that roses are working towards the next revolution. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:46, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Yup. Sources that refer to Muslims and no-go areas do precisely nothing to establish that all no-go areas (however defined) involve Muslims - the claim made when suggesting that the article be rewritten. Though frankly, having looked into this further, I'm even less convinced that we can salvage a sensible article on the subject of 'no-go areas' out of the Google-mined mess we seem to be getting ourselves into. Back in 2006, the BBC ran a Panorama series entitled 'No go Britain?' (note the question mark). As their website reveals with a section on the South East, commentary (presumably from viewers) on what they considered 'no go areas' included everything from allegations of serious gun crime, gang-related violence and drug dealing in a few inner-city areas to problems with litter and broken glass in wealthier London suburbs. The underlying theme, as much as there was one at all, was of teenagers causing trouble. Nothing remotely resembling a 'no-go area' in the sense of the state not exercising sovereignty (and no, nothing about Muslims running the area, or excluding non-Muslims). [27] If no-go areas include the archetypical 'leafy London suburb' of Surbiton, on the basis that the local YMCA houses "riff-raff", one has to suggest that the term has become so broad as to be devoid of meaning. AndyTheGrump (talk) 08:37, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

The above denials are POV, and ironically based on the very argument that was used against the sources I cited. An editor's POV does not/should not factor in to this discussion, and so far, that is all that has been provided in the arguments against the term's application and ubiquity. The sources I cited pass the acid test for WP:RS - academic and institutional research - and confirm use of the term "non-Muslim no-go zones or areas" according to WP:PAG. Show me the RS that support your position and/or contradict the sources I cited because POV is irrelevant and unacceptable in WP articles. Atsme☯^Consult 16:46, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

I fail to see how your comment is in any way related to my (or Andy's) objection that your sources do not support your claim - not because they are not RS, but because they simply do not say anything substantial supporting your position. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:47, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

The only POV I can see being expressed here is the one that insists that the term 'no-go areas' now only applies to areas restricted to non-Muslims - something which is demonstrably false, since counterexamples have been provided. We have shown that the term was and is used in all sorts of contexts, and has all sorts of differing meanings. Something that an article adhering to Wikipedia policy must therefore reflect. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:51, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Show me where anyone insists that the term 'no-go areas' now only applies to areas restricted to non-Muslims. I'm beginning to wonder if sentence comprehension is a widespread issue on WP, or if it only occurs when editors cannot support their argument. Atsme☯^Consult 02:34, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

"Today "No-go" refers to areas that are off-limits to non-Muslims. The lede will have to be changed, properly sourced, and the existing sections could possibly be combined to reflect the history of the term." Seems clear enough to me. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:39, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

About as clear headlights in a heavy fog. Insist is neither used nor implied. The statement was made in response to your suggestion (more like ultimatum): "Accordingly, I would have to suggest that unless a single reliable source can be found which gathers the disparate meanings of the phrase, and gives some sort of clear and unambiguous core definition, the article will need deletion." I provided a clear and unambiguous core definition based on 21st Century usage and cited more than a single reliable source. You already acknowledged "The definition given in the lede ("A no-go area or no-go zone is a region where the ruling authorities have lost control and are unable to enforce their sovereignty") is entirely unsourced." I'm getting the impression you argue for the sake of argument, and not to collaborate in making a crappy article worthwhile. Surely you can find better ways to waste your time. Atsme☯^Consult 03:58, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Your 'clear and unambiguous core definition' is not only entirely unsourced, but entirely fails to include other current usage. Cherry-picking examples around Muslims in no shape of form demonstrates that there is any 'core definition' compatible with your narrow preconceptions. Sadly, your evident inability to comprehend this simple fact suggests to me that I may have to waste more of my time if I am to ensure that this article doesn't get spun to suit your ill-conceived WP:OR. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:08, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Not only are there historical examples of no-go areas that have nothing to do with Muslims (such as those in Northern Ireland), but it's easy to find current examples that refute the idea that 'today "No-go" refers to areas that are off-limits to non-Muslims'. I googled "no-go area" together with FARC, favela and "drug lord" and came up with several current and reliable sources that used the phrase to mean something completely else. I'm sure I could have found more if I had tried any other search terms. Sjö (talk) 05:35, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

More POV drivel. Yawn. You asked for RS, and I gave you RS, academic and institutional research. There are many more, but you refuse to acknowledge any of it like it's my fault there are non-Muslim no-go zones. Get over it - they exist. The truth can be suppressed for a while, but it eventually it catches up to you. Why make empty claims you can't back-up with even a single RS? It's like expecting a screen to hold water. Read what Andy wrote in his first sentence of this section re: the lede being entirely unsourced. Atsme☯^Consult 06:18, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

It would be nice to have a definition from a reliable source that shows that there is some consensus in, say, criminology or sociology what a no-go area is. I doubt that there is one single definition, as it seems that the term means different things in different contexts. But, even if it's nearly impossible to find a single definition we can pretty easily see that some definitions are wrong, because there are counterexamples that don't fit in the definition. The recent discussion is about the definition that says that today no-go area has to do with Muslims, and that is very clearly false, as the counterexamples show. Sjö (talk) 06:31, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

@Sjö:, you asked for a RS that shows there is some consensus in criminology or sociology with regards to what a no-go area is. I'm not sure why you dismissed the sources I cited above but perhaps you will accept a published work in the Oxford Journals - Journal on Islamic Studies - Muslims and Crime: A Comparative Study [28]. It is also available in print on Google Books [29] On page xii it states, "The study also enabled meaningful consideration of the ways in which residents constructed the urban social reality as regards crime. In both locations residents spoke of 'no-go' zones which were defined with reference to perceived likelihood of becoming a victim of crime in the identified locations. The work details how the construction of a 'no-go' zone is dependent on many variables including the personification of an urban space as occupied by the 'criminal other'. In the UK, a case study of the celebration of the religious festivals of "Id by South Asian youth represents a bi-annual point of conflict between the police and Muslim community." Of course, the actual chapters describes it in more detail if you choose to read it all. The point I'm trying to make is that the term is used exactly as I described, and it applies to specific areas that involve specific Muslim communities. The study defines it quite well and identifies specific areas. The study was authored by Muzammil Quraishi, PhD - Senior Lecturer in Criminology & Criminal Justice. I'm simply providing the RS with the definition you were seeking. The above list of secondary and third party sources corroborate the definition. Atsme☯^Consult 02:16, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

And how would the no-go areas in 1970s Northern Ireland, or the favelas of contemporary Brazil fit in with that definition? AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:19, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

From Muslims and Crime: A Comparative Study, p. 83:

"Whereas in Karachi the areas avoided were also areas of the destitute and poor, in Haslingden the 'no-go' areas were considered mainly to be near pubs and the main threat to Muslim youth was from white males drinking at such locations. Indeed, many of the respondents cited having to walk past the pubs during the evening as a main point of anxiety."

AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:40, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

As I explained earlier - some of the existing sections could possibly be combined to reflect the etymology in a History section. I haven't researched the Northern Ireland no-go areas to know if they still exist, or what comprises the area. More sections (sub-sections) can be added to reflect a time line leading up to the 21st Century use of the term and various types of no-go zones. As it stands right now, the article uses an ambiguous term, and the context is not clearly defined, which is why I suggested a rewrite of the lede. An editor at the AfD mentioned schools with no-go areas, clearly out of context for this article. There are mining, military and wilderness areas that have no-go zones - all out of context for this article. If the intent is to keep the context as is in the lede: where the ruling authorities have lost control and are unable to enforce their sovereignty, then it stands to reason that the article should also include areas that are no-go zones to non-Muslims, Whites, Blacks, etc. IOW, no-go zones are not exclusive to Muslim communities, but they do include them. Atsme☯^Consult 02:58, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

You have just nominated this article for deletion on the basis that the definition in the lede is unsourced. Now you seem to be saying that the article should be built around that unsourced definition. Is it your intention to withdraw the AfD? AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:04, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

My response above is unambiguous, however it does require reading. Atsme☯^Consult 03:27, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Your response above is, like almost everything you have written in this thread, built around the premise that you can construct criteria for inclusion around your own personal preferences, based around nothing more than cherry-picked sources which are intended to fit the criteria. And even when it is pointed out that the source you have just cited fails to fit your own definition, you persist in insisting that your unsourced criteria are valid. So I will ask you again. Since you proposed this article for deletion on the basis that the definition in the lede was unsourced, and since you have yet again failed to provide a source for your proposed criteria for inclusion, do you intend to withdraw your AfD nomination? AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:37, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

References

Contested deletion

This article should not be speedy deleted as lacking sufficient context to identify its subject, because the nomination is clearly being made in violation of WP:POINT. The nominator has wasted much time on a specious attempt to restrict the subject matter to a particular subset of sourced material, based on nothing but WP:OR. Having failed, the nominator has resorted to a disruptive nomination of a 9-year-old article. There clearly are issues with it - but speedy deletion isn't the way to go while we are actively discussing the matter. --AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:38, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

And note that I have (since I am not the article creator, and accordingly permitted to do so) removed the specious speedy deletion template. AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:40, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Your removal of the template was tendentious and disruptive, especially considering the multiple reasons you gave above in support of deletion including:

• I may well propose the article for deletion - Wikipedia is not a dictionary, and unless a single source can be found to draw the existing content together, it may have to be deleted as synthesis. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:47, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
• Please read Wikipedia:No original research. Your personal opinion as to what your 'examples' illustrate or what 'up to the minute usage' may mean is of no relevance to article content. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:48, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
• The definition given in the lede ("A no-go area or no-go zone is a region where the ruling authorities have lost control and are unable to enforce their sovereignty") is entirely unsourced.
• Given that Wikipedia is not a dictionary, and that we cannot impose our own definition on a phrase, I have to seriously question the merits of retaining this article, if it is to become a dumping-ground for political soundbites.
• Accordingly, I would have to suggest that unless a single reliable source can be found which gathers the disparate meanings of the phrase, and gives some sort of clear and unambiguous core definition, the article will need deletion. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:23, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

I have added a request for deletion, and consult you to stop the disruptive behavior and tendentious editing. Atsme☯^Consult 14:04, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

AndyTheGrump isn't acting disruptively, but you are coming close. You have asked for speedy deletion with the explanation "no context" when this article very clearly is nowhere near that criterion, see WP:A1. There is absolutely nothing on WP:SPEEDY that says that an editor who isn't the article creator can't remove the speedy tag if he or she disagrees with the deletion request. Please note that while AndyTheGrump said that he considered proposing the article for deletion, that is a different process and doesn't justify placing a speedy tag on the page.

You also replaced a prod tag, citing as your reason a page that says the exact opposite of what you claimed. In the future, please don't refer to Wikipedia namespace pages before reading and understanding them. Sjö (talk) 18:03, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Andy used so many different reasons for deletion which I included above, that it became a little confusing as to which ones to include, so you can pin some of that confusion on him. I requested a speedy delete because the article has gone 8 years without any resolution of the issues Andy mentioned above. I would think as an admin you would find it rather odd that Andy has consistently been a proponent of deletion, and then suddenly became an opponent after I provided the RS he requested, all of which validated ubiquity of the term in relation to how it used today. Sorry if that doesn't meet with your approval, but WP is an encyclopedia, and there are going to be articles we personally don't approve of and/or disagree with on the basis of being "politically correct". Bottomline - an 8 year old article that has not satisfied any of the inline templates or the issues Andy himself has posed certainly warrants deletion according to advice I sought from other editors. I regret that you consider my actions as bordering on disruptive because that was never my intention. In fact, the discussions demonstrates my attempts to accommodate Andy's requests while his behavior demonstrates quite the opposite, including WP:OWN, and WP:DONTGETIT. Please direct further comments to the RfD. Atsme☯^Consult 19:02, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Atsme, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/No-go area has been created on your behalf. If you intend to continue with the AfD, please add your rationale for deletion. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:18, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

I already did. Thank you. Atsme☯^Consult 19:19, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:32, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Fox News on no-go areas in Europe

Quote:

“Over the course of this last week we have made some regrettable errors on air, regarding the Muslim population in Europe, particularly with regard to England and France.

“This applies especially to discussions of so-called no-go zones, areas where non-Muslims allegedly aren’t allowed in, and police supposedly won’t go.

“To be clear, there is no formal designation of these zones in either country, and no credible information to support the assertion there are specific areas in these countries that exclude individuals based solely on their religion.

“There are, certainly, areas of high crime in Europe, as there are in the United States and other countries, where police and visitors enter with caution.

“We deeply regret the errors and apologise to any and all who may have taken offence, including the people of France and England.”

[30] AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:53, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

I used to agree with what AndyTheGrump said in the Birmingham section, that we this article doesn't need to cover non-no-go areas. I light of the recent news reports I'm beginning to change my mind. Maybe there could be a section about the erroneous claims of Muslim-controlled no-go areas, and how they're based on misrepresenting official reports or entirely made up. Still, we have to consider WP:NOTNEWS and WP:RECENTISM. What do you think? There is a section about France now, where probably many of the sources could be useful. Sjö (talk) 06:15, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

We'd have to be wary of synthesis if doing that. We can report the specific claims, the reaction to these specific claims, and the retraction - but anything more than that becomes problematic, especially given the lack of any clear definition of what a 'no-go area' is. AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:58, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Oh, good because as soon as I finish another project I've been working on, I was planning to include a section highlighting Muzammil Quraishi, PhD study. Atsme☯^Consult 07:08, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

The one describing how areas around pubs in the Birmingham suburbs a town in northern England are seen as 'no-go areas' by local British Muslims, you mean? I'm not sure that per WP:WEIGHT it would be merited, but I'm glad to see you've dropped your insistence that the prime topic of this article should be 'areas that are off-limits to non-Muslims'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 07:19, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Has Sean Hannity acknowledged on air that he and Robert Spencer said insanities (pun intended) about France? Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 21:26, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

We can't keep adding things to articles every time we get riled over what idiot pundits say on partisan based opinion programs. If we do, WP may need to change to a tabloid format. See WP:NPOV - Balancing aspects - An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to the weight of that aspect in the body of reliable sources on the subject. For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and impartial, but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. This is a concern especially in relation to recent events that may be in the news. Atsme☯^Consult 01:39, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

I have added previous allegations by public figures and government reports into no-go areas (almost only in Birmingham!) to the article, with appropriate opinions against such allegations. This encyclopedia should tell the reader that the history of such allegations against Birmingham did not start in 2015, and were by figures one would trust more than Fox News (police chief, government report) even though they are not proven true. '''tAD''' (talk) 16:55, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Surprising that nobody had mentioned the 2001 Oldham riots in Manchester before. Now added in section, with a couple of the many citations found at the other article. — Brianhe (talk) 03:05, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Number of refs in Footnote #4

Suggest trimming footnote number 4 and moving the remainder to the talk page. It looks like they were added as part of the AfD strategy to establish notability. No problem good strategy. But now it looks like NOTNEWS as they are all covering the same fairly rapid event which is now over. It's also not recommended to have super-footnotes with multiple refs so if they are to be kept they should be broken into separate refs. But I think 3 or 4 refs would cover the whole thing. And leave a comment to see the talk page for additional coverage. -- GreenC 22:07, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree with that. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 22:27, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Looking more and more like a WP:COATRACK filled with criticisms rather than important information. Sad. Atsme☯^Consult 01:17, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Agree with Green Cardamon. Sjö (talk) 05:57, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Fox news sources

Per the emerging consensus above, the "super footnote" containing dozens of sources is trimmed down and moved to the talk page for reference. Note that super footnotes are not recommended and refs should be added individually, preferably using the cite template. Also secondary sources are preferred over primary, so when reporting on the Fox news it should be from a reliable source other than Fox News such as the Washington Post or New York Times, if possible. -- GreenC 14:16, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

• Daniel Pipes, The 751 No-Go Zones of France, 2006 - 2015;
• many video at Fox News, including :
  • Sean Hannity and Robert Spencer (and others), Fox News, 2015-01-08, [31] [32];
  • Neil Cavuto and Nolan Peterson, French 'no-go zones' in question after Paris terror attacks[33], 2015-01-09;
  • Sean Hannity and Robert Spencer (and Danny Coulson), Robert Spencer: 'No-Go Zones' Are Incubators of Islamic Jihad, Fox News, 2015-01-09, [34] [35];
  • Elisabeth Hasselbeck and Nolan Peterson, Hundreds of 'No-Go Zones' Across France Are Off-Limits to Non-Muslims [36], Fox News, 2015-01-10, Fox & Friends;
  • Jeanine Pirro and Steven Emerson, Fox News, 2015-01-11, [37] [38];
  • ? and Robert Spencer, Fox and Friends [39], 2015-01-11;
  • Sean Hannity and Nigel Farage, Nigel Farage says Europe has suffered from 'moral cowardice' [40] [41][42], Fox News, 2015-01-12;
• Nolan Peterson, The next French Revolution, 2015-01-07 ;
• Nolan Peterson, NSJI fellow speaks on Fox News about French “no-go zones”, Medill School of Journalism, 2015-01-12;
• Karl de Vries, Paris attacks prompt fears France's Muslim 'no-go' zones incubating jihad, Fox News, 2015-01-12, include quotes of Soeren Kern and Robert Spencer;
• Rowan Scarborough, Muslims segregated from French society in growing Islamist mini-states, Washington Times, 2015-01-07, include quotes of Soeren Kern and Robert Spencer;
• Steven Swinford, Nigel Farage: Ghettos in French cities have become no-go zones for non-Muslims, The Telegraph, 2015-01-13;
• O'Reilly: "France Brought A Lot Of This Terrorism On Itself", Media Matters for America, 2015-01-09;
• Mathieu Dehlinger, Sur Fox News, un expert évoque des zones interdites aux non-musulmans en plein Paris, France Télévisions, 2015-01-13;
• Robin Andraca, Pendant ce temps, Fox News explore l'Afghanistan parisien, Arrêt sur images, 2015-01-13;
• Pierre Lemerle, Pour Fox News, Paris s'apparente à Bagdad, lexpress.fr, 2015-01-13;
• D'après Fox News, la charia règne à Paris, Le Point, 2015-01-13;
• VIDEO. Attentat à «Charlie Hebdo»: Fox News évoque des «zones interdites» aux non-musulmans à Paris, 20 minutes (France), 2015-01-03;
• Charlie Hebdo : quand Fox News s'emballe sur des "zones de non-droit" à Paris, Metro, 2015-01-13;
• Sharia Law Muslim 'No-Go' Zones, Snopes, 2015-01-12;
• Dina Rickman, Nigel Farage was on Fox News and was as bad as Steve Emerson, The Independent, 2015-01-14;
• Rajeev Syal, Nigel Farage tells Fox News there are no-go zones for non-Muslims in France, The Guardian, 2015-01-13;
• Tim Dowling, News from Fox, and the no-go zone of the brain. Steven Emerson’s ‘Muslim-only’ Birmingham comments provoked mirth. But what about his Googling of France?, The Guardian, 2015-01-14;
• La Tour Eiffel cernée par un califat islamiste, selon Fox News, France 24, 2015-01-14;
• Guillaume Gendron, Pour Fox News, Paris c'est Bagdad, Libération, 2014-01-14;
• François de la Taille, Fox News parle de zones interdites aux non-musulmans en France, BFMTV, 2015-01-14;
• Fox News/Afghanistan parisien : le journaliste s'explique (mais maintient), Arrêt sur images, 2015-01-15;
• four video at Le Petit Journal (Canal+):
  • Les zones interdites de Paris, 2015-01-13, English subtitles [43];
  • Shut the fuck up Fox News !, 2015-01-14;
  • Shut up Fox News, 2015-01-15;
  • Opération Fox News !, 2015-01-16;
• Alexandre Hervaud, «No-go zones» islamistes de Paris : l’expert de Fox News s'excuse, Libération, 2015-01-15;
• Joshua Keating, The French Ambassador to the United States Is Subtweeting America, Slate, 2015-01-15;
• Jean-Marie Pottier, Charlie Hebdo: l'ambassadeur de France aux Etats-Unis n'apprécie pas du tout la couverture médiatique américaine, Slate, 2015-01-16;
• Zack Beauchamp, Fox News informs surprised Parisians they've been conquered by Muslims, vox.com ;
• Carol Matlack, Debunking the Myth of Muslim-Only Zones in Major European Cities, Businessweek, 2015-10-14;
• Aldo Guerrero, The Only 'No-Go Zones' Are Found in Fox News' Fantasyland, Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting, 2015-01-15;
• Are there really 'no-go zones' in Paris?, The Local, 2015-01-15;
• French TV: Laughing At The Credibility Of The Fox News Clowns And #FoxNewsFacts, News Corpse, 2015-01-15;

NPOV tag

This article reflects a fundamentally racist POV and does not meet Wikipedia standards. Even though Fox News has apologized for making false claims regarding no-go zones (see http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/19/world/europe/fox-news-apologizes-for-false-claims-of-muslim-only-areas-in-england-and-france.html ), this article is mostly a regurgitation of the false claims made by Fox News. Gouncbeatduke (talk) 14:54, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't suppose it's possible to mention anything on this topic by Fox News without a complaint. Considering all of the Fox News mentions are fully countered with alternative POVs (which clearly show Fox News to be full of shit), and the Fox News stuff takes up less then 1/4 of the article, it's difficult to understand the above complaint which seems like a general protest over the inclusion of the Fox News material in the article. I guess we'll have to live with POV tags because there is not way to make editors happy short of negation and removal of Fox News entirely (which is the worse kind of POV). -- GreenC 15:21, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Gouncbeatduke, if you think that a section is POV, then please use Template:POV-section, not Template:POV. Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 16:45, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

I have replaced the template. Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 22:02, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Disagree. Several editors added many references to the use of the term "no-go zone" by RS such as the BBC and the government of the UK across a long period. Unless people are now accusing the BBC of being racist, it is not clear why
(a) Every single entry by RS was deleted or hidden
(b) Why the excuse was WP:CHERRY/WP:UNDUE. If anything, by deleting/hiding the sections, bias is being introduced by focusing on CNN's/Fox's foibles, and ignoring well over a decade of BBC headlines about "no-go zones" in the UK, i.e., the WP:CHERRY is deleting a decade of RS citations and providing a soapbox for laser-focusing on CNN and Fox. XavierItzm (talk) 03:29, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

The Fow news controversy has gained much more attention than those "BBC headlines", which are not university or scholar sources. Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 22:30, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

So you are saying that "not university or scholar sources" such as the BBC referring for well over a decade to the no-go zones in the UK need be deleted from this article,
but a "Fox controversy" with "much more attention" needs to be the focus of this article?
What highly encyclopaedic criteria are being advocated here! XavierItzm (talk) 13:07, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

No. I am saying that the "BBC headlines" need be deleted. Feel free to delete the "Fox controversy" and the other crap about France. Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 21:17, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

And to this date the BBC "no go zones" articles spanning a decade remain censored out of this article. XavierItzm (talk) 21:53, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Actually, the BBC sources I've seen don't state that there have been 'no-go zones' in the UK (excepting of course the NI examples from the 1970's). What they say is that areas have been described as no-go areas by someone or other. Which is basically the case for all the European 'no-go zones' that sources have come up with. This is unsurprising, given that 'no-go' is a vague concept, defined as meaning whatever the person using the description wants it to mean. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:16, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

"'no-go' is a vague concept, defined as meaning whatever the person using the description wants it to mean" - Agree. This is why an article on no go zones should cite relevant RS of all such types. Why do we ban actual BBC refs writing about "No Go Zones" rather than ref them and let the reader interpret? Why must the Wiki be an arbiter of meaning of the term "No Go Zones"? XavierItzm (talk) 15:27, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Jindal sorting

The § about Jindal statements is currently sorted in the France sub-section of the Allegations about Europe section. However, the only areas currently mentionned by this § are "Western countries" and "England", not France. One way to solve this sissue would be deleting the France and United Kingdom sub-sectionning of the Allegations about Europe section. Do you see other ways? Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 16:46, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

It is patently absurd to have the Jindal comments under "France." As the source says, he spoke from London, England. XavierItzm (talk) 03:09, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

I fixed it now. Zezen (talk) 09:22, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Bias and wrong information on the UK section

The note about United Kingdom cites a Daily Mail article from 2015. First, the article itself (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2541635/Murders-rapes-going-unreported-no-zones-police-minority-communities-launch-justice-systems.html) says it was published on January 18th, 2014. Second, the Wikipedia article makes mention only of the title of the article, "Murders and rapes going unreported in no-go zones for police as minority communities launch own justice systems", ignoring that the article clearly mentions that "‘It’s not that the police are afraid to go into these areas or don’t want to go into those areas,’ he said. ‘But if the police don’t get calls for help then, of course, they won’t know what’s going on.’", meaning it would not qualify as a No-Go zone by the definition provided by the Wikipedia article itself. Insipido (talk) 21:31, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Yup - though given that 'no-go zone' evidently means whatever anyone intends it to mean at the time they said it, this article shouldn't be asserting that there is such an actual thing as a no-go zone at all. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:36, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

This change [44] needs to be discussed. First of all it was not a clean deletion, which would have showed up in the edit logs as a significant change (instead of an addition as it now appears). Second, it removes several sources which have not been properly challenged, including the Ritchie Report. Brianhe (talk) 22:39, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

So, the article as it currently stands devotes five lines to a speech given by a US governor in London, which he defends by citing the Daily Mail article "Murders-rapes-going-unreported-no-zones-police-minority-communities-launch-justice-systems.html", and yet the very reference to the Daily Mail article has been edited/hidden out of view.
How is this encyclopaedic? XavierItzm (talk) 02:36, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Agree with above. Also should the single speech by Governor Jindal be given significant weight? Perhaps more weight should be given to the Daily Mail article which the Governor was speaking of, which is directly about the subject, rather than a politicians comment about the [removed] source.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 07:03, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

I have copied the Daily Mail ref. Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 22:28, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

In my opinion, proponents of racist conspiracy theories should leave this talk page. Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 22:32, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

See WP:AGF, WP:CIVIL, & Shooting the messenger.

This article should give due weight to verified content from reliable sources. There maybe a debate on what weight should be given to what, then we can civilly discuss this, but name calling does not help anyone, or help advance this article.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 05:42, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Do you feel targeted? Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 20:25, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

2015-01 translation from french language

Brianhe added a mention of a 99 pages french-language paper. If i assume good faith, then Brianhe understand french language. He translated the title "«Les zones de non-droit» dans la République Française, mythe ou realite ?" into ""No-go areas" in France, myth or reality?" If Brianhe understand french language (still assuming good faith), then he know that "zones de non-droit" does not translate into "no-go areas". Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 22:51, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

And in this revert' comment, he write "If you are right, the title of the linked French Wikipedia article is wrong." Which "linked French Wikipedia article" is he talking about? Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 22:51, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

It used to link to fr:Zone de non-droit but you removed the Wikidata link at 22:29 today [45]. Brianhe (talk) 22:54, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

I removed the link at 22:29 UTC. You made your comment at 22:35 UTC. Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 22:20, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Is "vandalized wikidata link" a Wikipedia:Personal attack? Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 22:20, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

However, maybe "lawless areas" is a better translation than "out-of-law areas". Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 22:51, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

This research shows, I think, that zone de non-droit and "no-go areas" are perfectly interchangeable. Several French language newspapers, television stations, and Internet news outlets rendered "no-go zone" as zone de non-droit. Le Monde used zones de non-droit in the headline, « no-go zones » interdites aux non-musulmans in the summary, and zones de non-droit interdites aux non-musulmans in the article body. — Brianhe (talk) 15:57, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

• "Zones de non-droit : Fox News renouvelle ses excuses", Le Monde, January 19, 2015
• "Zones de non-droit" à Paris : Anne Hidalgo veut porter plainte contre Fox News, France24, January 21, 2015
• Gabriel SIMÉON (January 13, 2015), "Charlie Hebdo : quand Fox News s'emballe sur des "zones de non-droit" à Paris", Metro News (France), Metro International
• Mathieu Zagrodzki (January 22, 2015), "No Go Zones en plein Paris : et s'il y avait un poil de vrai derrière les excès de Fox News sur les quartiers perdus pour la France ? Si la chaîne de télévision américaine Fox News a été fermement et justement critiquée pour avoir affirmé qu'il y aurait en France des zones de non-droit contrôlées par des islamistes radicaux, on ne peut toutefois pas nier que certains quartiers peuvent poser problème.", Atlantico {{citation}}: line feed character in |title= at position 134 (help)

Thank you for showing that "no-go areas" translate into "zones de non-droit interdites aux non-musulmans". Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 21:07, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

You are welcome, I guess? — Brianhe (talk) 03:42, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Sources offered

Rather than play back-and-forth in the article maybe we can discus using these sources here first. I've selected instances in many countries that establish the use of the term.

The New York Times

Hopefully this source won't be challenged as being partisan.

• JIM YARDLEY (September 23, 2014), "Europe's Anti-Semitism Comes Out of the Shadows", The New York Times, An increasing number of Jews, if still relatively modest in total, are now migrating to Israel. Others describe "no go" zones in Muslim districts of many European cities where Jews dare not travel.
• KAREEM FAHIM; MERNA THOMAS (October 29, 2014), "Egypt Flattens Neighborhoods to Create a Buffer With Gaza", The New York Times, The militants have operated mainly in Sinai, turning a stretch of towns in the north into a no-go zone for the authorities and even setting up their own checkpoints.
• Greg Myre (December 29, 2005), "Israel calls northern Gaza area no-go zone", The New York Times, Israel declared the northernmost part of the Gaza Strip on Wednesday a no-go zone for Palestinians and bombarded it with artillery shells in an attempt to halt Palestinian rocket fire from the area.

Other American press

Some of these sources have a political point of view.

• Associated Press (April 1, 2014), Japan Lets First Evacuees Live in Nuke No-Go Zone – via The New York Times
• Spencer, Robert (January 20, 2015), "No No-Go Zones? Really?", FrontPage Magazine — "an online political magazine" according to Wikipedia
• Moore, Art (January 20, 2015), "Yes, there are "no-go" zones in Europe", WorldNetDaily — "an American web site that publishes news and associated content from the perspective of U.S. conservatives and the political right" according to Wikipedia
• Waldman, Paul (January 26, 2015), "No-Go Zones Could Be the 2016 Campaign's Next Culture War", The American Prospect — source is "a bi-monthly American political magazine dedicated to American liberalism" according to Wikipedia
• Pipes, Daniel (January 23, 2015), "Opinion: Does Europe Have No-Go Zones?", Algemeiner Journal — "a New York-based newspaper, covering American and international Jewish and Israel-related news" according to Wikipedia

American press on Michigan no-go zones

• Clare Lopez (June 28, 2012), "No-Go Zone in Dearborn: Where Islam Rules & Christians Are Stoned", Clarion Project news analysis, The Clarion Project – "a New York City-based, independently funded, nonprofit organization founded in 2006 whose stated mission is to "educate people about the inherent dangers of Islamic extremism, provide a platform for moderate Muslim voices, and motivates people to take an active stand against those who want to deny others their basic human rights" according to Wikipedia
• Karen Finney (January 26, 2015), The No-Go Zone Myth Comes To America, Media Matters for America – "a politically progressive media watchdog and lobbying group" according to Wikipedia
• Nancy Kaffer (February 2, 2015), "Dearborn, MI: Where Muslims Are…Americans", The Daily Beast – "an American news reporting and opinion website" according to Wikipedia

Academic paper(s)

• "Civil Rights, Civil Wrongs and Quasi-Public Space" (PDF), European Human Rights Law Review: 46–102, 1999 {{citation}}: Unknown parameter |authors= ignored (help) – discusses a "no-go zone" created against several minority youths by a court injunction in the UK; cites another paper "No-Go in the Fortress City: Young People, Inequality and Space"

The last paper you cite above is interesting in that it gives yet another example of the varied meanings attached to the term ' no-go areas' - "arbitrary exclusion from the precincts of civic commercial complexes" of individuals (i.e. homeless people) seen as undesirable by the owners. Clearly the lede of our article needs expansion to include such a definition. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:50, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I completely agree but I'm feeling kind of "thumped" on introducing new stuff in the article itself. We are actually missing two definitions of state->individual control, I think: one is civil like this one, and one is military. The US and allied militaries used "no-go zone" a lot in Vietnam to refer both to civilians not entering operational areas (example), and to the US servicemembers themselves not being allowed in certain establishments or areas that were considered unsafe (or, according to a relative of mine, for political reasons when Jane Fonda visited Tokyo). — Brianhe (talk) 19:15, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

The Vietnam example tallies with the Rhodesia one already included in the article, and to a certain extent with the Northern Ireland one - it seems to me that the term appears first to have been a military concept, and has since been broadened and/or reduced to a near-metaphor in contemporary usage, to the extent that (as I've already pointed out above) it has been used to indicate nothing more than an area where a particular individual may feel insecure. There is no shortage of sources for the latter (e.g. from the BBC series 'No go Britain?'), but I'm wary of making the article a dumping-ground for anything and everything that someone has at one time or another described as a 'no-go area' - we really need some sort of sourced definition for the concept in general (if there is one), as otherwise, this article is going to have endemic POV problems. In particular, the article is going to be prone to systematic bias in that few sources are going to state that 'X is not a no-go area' - firstly, because unless someone has already suggested that it is, there is no reason to, and secondly because since there is no agreed definition, a categorical negative is impossible anyway. And to be honest, I can't see a way around that. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:46, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Your last point is dead on – there's going to be friction between editors here as long as we don't even understand what is being written about. Is the article about a linguistic term that may or not have real-world referents? Is it the term as it has been applied by notable people in 2015? Is it about documenting real-world no-go areas? Obviously some kind of analysis is called for, so a random quotefarm isn't going to cut it. When approaching this, I think we should remain mindful of what Wikipedia readers will expect here and why they're visiting this article hundreds or thousands of times a day now, versus less than 100 every day of December: balanced but realistic treatment, honoring published sources even if they reveal some speakers' inaccurate or biased remarks. WP:NOTTRUTH suggests that this is the right course. — Brianhe (talk) 00:01, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

RfC: Is the pre-2015 France information relevant?

Should the "Allegations about Europe" section contain background information on the use of the term "no-go zones" and/or "zone de non-droit" in 2002, 2005 and 2012, as removed by this edit? — Brianhe (talk) 01:37, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

• Revert removal, content removed met verified by at least one reliable source, and was neutrally worded. Wikipedia is not censored, nor is it a place to a soup box to advance an agenda. There is a debate for whether such statements are given undue weight, but the content wasn't extremely lengthy, in and of their individual sentences, nor did it not in a neutral style accurately state was written in the source.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 05:49, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
• Revert is my recommendation in accordance with the above. If there's no more input on this, the edit will be reverted per consensus. — Brianhe (talk) 02:31, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
• Comment. An RfC is expected to run for around a month, and should then be closed by an uninvolved person. Not two days, followed by closure by the person starting it. And frankly, waiting for a few weeks before making drastic changes would do this article a whole lot of good - there has been far too much hurry to spin it to suit immediate political perspectives, and little regard for long-term encyclopaedic content. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:37, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
• No revert - The RfC is worded such that a restoration of this material will be very hard to trim etc.. due to subsequent claims of "consensus". I could see see some of it restored but it's fairly lengthy and unclear what the point of listing every time someone uses the term. I don't support a "revert". But I might support adding some of it using normal editing procedures. It shouldn't be all locked out. -- GreenC 03:02, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
• No revert Summoned by bot - Passing mentions of the term "no-go area" for political reasons does not warrant a mention in the article. If there is material supported by multiple sources, it could be restored. - Cwobeel (talk) 04:15, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
  • For the most part, these are not passing mentions, but the main subject of the references in question. Korny O'Near (talk) 15:30, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
• Revert removal, content comes from RS and it is not clear to me how anyone can justify censoring content they just happen to not like, as it is being done here. XavierItzm (talk) 15:46, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
• comment: The "zone de non-droit" are out-of-scope of this Wikipedia article. Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 21:22, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
• Revert removal, content removed met verified by at least one reliable source, and was neutrally worded. Wikipedia is not censored, nor is it a place to a soup box to advance an agenda. There is a debate for whether such statements are given undue weight, but the content wasn't extremely lengthy, in and of their individual sentences, nor did it not in a neutral style accurately state was written in the source. It is absurd to pretend at this late stage that "zone de non-droit" are out-of-scope, when there was consensus in earlier Talk that the French "zone de non-droit" means no-go zone in this context. XavierItzm (talk) 14:48, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

  There is no such consensus currently. Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 20:12, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Section on criticism of use of the term

Section "Criticism of use of the term" created; four sources that say it is a myth or wrong; two that defend it either strongly or somewhat. This is, I hope, a balanced treatment of both sides, and we can discuss it here instead of another wholesale reversion. — Brianhe (talk) 19:14, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Just a quick comment: The Commentary source doesn't support the statement "stating that the use of the term stemmed from a 2007 New York Times Magazine article". The referenced article must be this one. There's a link to the New York Times article, but it doesn't use the term "no-go" anything. The Commentary article doesn't say that NYT used the term, so as long as we're discussing the term and not the existence or non-existence of no-go areas I don't see how it belongs here.Sjö (talk) 20:53, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

I'll wait to see how others evaluate that. Meantime, here is a NYT 1/19 piece with some more explicit discussion of the first use of the term: [46]. According to this, it goes back to a 2006 Daniel Pipes blog post. Brianhe (talk) 21:38, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

See also Theodore Dalrymple, The Barbarians at the Gates of Paris, City journal, Autumn 2002. Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 22:27, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Well, here we go again. Can you explain why you did this [47]? Your edit summary doesn't parse. — Brianhe (talk) 23:17, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Why did you link this and not that? Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 20:30, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

See also [48] [49] [50]. Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 20:30, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

The term has been used for a very long time in a military and paramilitary context, and it wouldn't surprise me to find examples of favelas called no-go areas in the 1990s. Dictionary.com says about "no-go" that the sense sense "where it is forbidden to go," is from 1971. Sjö (talk) 06:04, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

In my opinion, according to media coverage, scientific litterature, WP:NPoV, WP:UNDUE, Template:Globalize/US, #Fox news sources, [51], I think that "four sources that say it is a myth or wrong; two that defend it either strongly or somewhat" is not balanced. forty sources that say it is a myth or wrong; two that defend it either strongly or somewhat, would be better. Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 20:52, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Never have seen someone propose a 20:1 favoring of sources on one side of a debate before in an WP:NPOV discussion. Is this to be taken seriously? — Brianhe (talk) 02:24, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

I am very serious. Several "conservative" (and far-right by France standard) US peoples and US organizations made the claim many time last 10 years, a few mainstream US medias made the claim several time en passant, and the rest of the world, including governements and scholars, don't care about this crap, until January 2015 when dozens of French medias mocked the claim, some French officials denied it, and Fox News apologized. WP:UNDUE say currently

Wikipedia should not present a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserves as much attention overall as the majority view. [...] Wikipedia aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation in reliable sources on the subject.

So yes, a 20:1 ratio would be better. And as I wrote previously, I think that proponents of racist conspiracy theories should leave this talk page. Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 22:14, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Here's the problem with your citation of WP:UNDUE policy. How can anyone establish the weight in the sources when you are deleting all the sources on one side of the argument? You say you're interested in following policies, but in fact the opposite is happening on several counts. Let me describe some real cherry picking for you. It's taking a point of view that you prefer, single-handedly labeling challenging views on this page as "racist" and all opposing points of view in the media as "fringe" or "far right"[52][53] and then using your own determination as a justification to repeatedly delete what you deem as such, while consensus has not been reached.[54][55][56][57] You have not only deleted the references (both pro and con, including Debunking the Myth of Muslim-Only Zones in Major European Cities), but even a mere mention that other references exist, reducing one sentence to "Governor Jindal's office issued on January 20 a press release."[58] It is not neutral; this is naked censorship of the mere existence of an issue.

The nearly identical pattern of deleting contrary points of view as "unreliable" or "out of scope", if you bother to leave any explanation at all, at related topics like Former Muslims United, Charlie Hebdo shooting, Islam in France, Eurabia, and Counterjihad is troubling. [59][60][61][62][63][64] This gives every appearance of WP:ADVOCACY, WP:OWN and WP:SPA behavior across the board, which is unacceptable.

Even if VFP doesn't agree to get along here, but I do hope that other editors see this behavior for what it is, and respond appropriately. — Brianhe (talk) 22:09, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Brianhe and support his position in this. VFP is violating NPOV by trying to keep out valid secondary sources. Let's have some real balance in this article. Elizium23 (talk) 23:31, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

"real balance"??? Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 22:59, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Balance is indeed what is missing. I've travelled extensively in Europe and much less in the USA. The only time I've ever been warned off a "no-go area" was when on a visit to the States. See [65], [66], [67]. Tourist literature has lots of warnings about them in cities in the \USA, but presumably that doesn't count as WP:RS. See NY. I'm not saying that all the examples I've just given are well-founded, but the article's current focus on Europe is very wrong and reflects bias on the part of the editors who are keeping it that way. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 23:18, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

You are empowered to correct under-reporting. I will add a couple of suggestions from a quick search on the U.S. to my "sources offered" above. — Brianhe (talk) 23:30, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

2015-02 unreliable source

The article by Soeren Kern, "European 'No-Go' Zones: Fact or Fiction? Part 1: France", 2015-01-20, Gatestone Institute, is an unreliable source. It is field research Internet research, cherry picking, mistranslation, misattribution. It is from the same author alleging [68] [69] [70] that the 751 Sensitive urban zone are officially no-go zones, "over which the French state has lost control", "governed by Islamic Sharia law". And of course, no in-field reliable source support or praise it (as far as I know, Bobby Jindal and Robert Spencer are not scholar working on France urban areas). Please do not quote, plagiarise or link it in the Wikipedia article anymore. Thank you. — — Preceding unsigned comment added by Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk • contribs) 22:20, 2 February 2015

How does what you say above justify massive deletion of reliable sources once again[71], including Le Figaro, Europe1, Radio Télévision Suisse, and L'Obs? You are displaying a flagrant disregard for the WP process of collaboration, especially considering your awareness of the ongoing discussion here. Also, the term "plagiarize" is pretty serious, you should know what it means before using it wrt other editors. — Brianhe (talk) 03:09, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Please. It is not L'Obs, but Rue89. How many time should I write that Soeren Kern's articles are not reliable? Do NOT trust them. Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 21:12, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

The Gatestone Institute appears to be an unreliable source. It has been discussed on WP:RSN, see Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_142#Quality_of_sources. I stumbled on an article describing Sweden as being close to becoming a failed state written by two persons that started Dispatch International, a web magazine described by Expo (magazine) as racist and a part of the counterjihad movement. This suggest a that they go for far-fetched interpretations and that they have a strong anti-muslim bias. I wouldn't use it as a source on Islam or Europe, except as a source for its own opinions, but even then we would have to consider WP:DUE. Sjö (talk) 21:41, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Just as a small note, Rue89 is owned by, and co-branded with, L'Obs, so I wouldn't call that a major error. Korny O'Near (talk) 22:03, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

A few comments:

• It is still an error.
• Such confusing Courrier International ("owned by, and co-branded with") and Le Monde.
• I corrected the article on 2015-02-01 at 20:00 UTC, Brianhe wrote his comment above on 2015-02-03 at 03:09 UTC, more than 1 day after.
• Soeren Kern made the error.
• You made the error when you plagiarised copy-pasted added the mention in the Wikipedia article.

Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 22:36, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm concerned that the version I just reverted includes exactly the same sources that appear in a few paragraphs of Kerns Gatestone article, with very similar wording and with only minor changes in the order. This is close to WP:COPYVIO, but what is more, Kern uses these sources selectively, translates them tendentiously, and places them in a misleading context. We should not follow his errors. Seriously: How many editors who support this this segment even know enough French to verify the claims made? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:16, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

This seems like a textbook case of guilt by association. In theory, it shouldn't matter if a reference was discovered by, I don't know, a three-toed sloth wearing a swastika. If the reference is valid and helps the article, it should stay in. As for the French (and other sources in German) - references from other languages are hardly unique to this article, and there are a variety of pretty good translation tools online to make them legible to those who can't speak the languages. Korny O'Near (talk) 22:27, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

In theory, theory and practice should agree. My French is marginal. I used Google Translate to check out some of the sources (BTW, one is a video - good luck with online translators there), and as far as I can tell this is a typical case of dragnetting a few unrelated incidents to create a misleading assumption of a common theme. The articles don't use the term "no-go zones", they don't claim the various cases are at all related to any religion, and they don't even claim its a systematic phenomenon. Of course a country like France has some darker corners where crime is higher than desirable, and of course the press will report on them. But a bad area in France is still safer on average than a middling area in Miami, at least according to my admittedly anecdotal experience. Kern has a narrative to sell and he syntheses it from a few press snippets. That is not atypical for a think tank which tries to please its audience, but its not something we should follow. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 23:07, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

That's fine that those sources aren't trying to claim that it's a systematic phenomenon - neither is this article. The title of the article is "no-go area", and, to summarize, it's about areas that are considered off-limits to either certain citizens, or law enforcement, or both. These (notable) sources make the claim - in so many words - that certain areas in Europe fit that description. Therefore it seems very relevant to this article to include them. Korny O'Near (talk) 23:51, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Korny is right. If Gatestone concatenated several factoids into one report, it doesn't prohibit us from reporting the same factoids. E.g. "mayor of Amiens said ..." is in the Gatestone institute piece, is also in Europe1 Television. Even if you don't like Gatestone or its writer as a source, Europe1 is fairly impeccable so there's no reason to be prejudiced against it. At least, nobody has enunciated such as reason. Ditto for Radio Télévision Suisse and the others that were deleted. As for the claim "they don't use the term 'no-go zones'" I've addressed this above where Le Monde has given us strong reasons to treat zone de non-droit as equivalent in this context. Finally I'm completely at a loss as to how to respond to your anecdote about Miami. Let's stick to the sources. — Brianhe (talk) 03:05, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

One more point regarding the latest removal of the same sources, now with the objection of SYN having been committed. Please read WP:SYNNOT and especially the sentence "If a putative SYNTH doesn't constitute original research, then it doesn't constitute SYNTH." Before removing these sources, please show how original research is being committed by using them. I fail to see this in straight-up reporting of what newspapers and television stations say local leaders/law enforcment are saying about their own areas, for example this: "This echoed a description of Roubaix by French magazine Rue89, which wrote that the police no longer attempted to stop violence there." I just don't see OR or any editorial coloring at all. — Brianhe (talk) 18:46, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources (emphasis mine). The Wikipedia text was (in all likelihood) copied from Kern's article at Gatestone here, which was published on January 20th. The first time that material came into our article was here, on February 1st, partially just copying stuff from Kern, and also adding him as a reference directly. So User: Korny O'Near definitely knew of the Gatestone article when (s)he added these sources, and I find it very implausible to assume that (s)he assembled, by accident, the same sources in nearly the same words by independent research. Indeed, (s)he at least seem to suggest that (s)he only looked at the original sources through Google Translate (or similar), if at all. What we have is Kern, an unreliable and biased source, assembling a set of unrelated articles into his narrative - clear OR. Of course Kern is allowed to do the OR for his "think tank" political rationalisation. But there is general consensus that Kern is unreliable (or at least nobody so far has argued otherwise). So the whole reason to consider these largely unrelated tales of different urban problem zones part of one narrative breaks away. Letting it standing is substituting Kern's OR with our own. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:08, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

The article section is not implying anything. It lists some notable cases of people describing areas within Europe as "no-go areas". In your opinion, would an article called "No-go area" be improved if it had fewer listings of people referring to no-go areas? Korny O'Near (talk) 22:21, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

You fail to answer Stephan Schulz arguments. And no, the deleted material (exept Kern's) do not "lists some notable cases of people describing areas within Europe as "no-go areas"". Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 22:40, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I feel like I already answered them, but, in short: information that's notable and relevant is notable and relevant, regardless of any context. As to whether these descriptions match the definition of a "no-go area", that's the sort of argument-on-the-merits that should have taken place from the beginning, instead of all this pointless stuff about think tanks. Korny O'Near (talk) 00:17, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

The characterization of Korny's contribution as "copying" is bogus. I'd be happy to post an analysis of the Gatestone piece and his contribution, but I think it suffices to say at worst he condensed a 391 word passage to 134 words, selecting a couple of the same salient statements from first-hand observers. Accusing good-faith editors of copying or plagiarism does not belong here, and he deserves an apology for this language. You are setting a double standard: first, contributors are criticized for talking about what overseas observers are saying. Second, you have asked for introduction of on-point sources about the topic of this article, which is loss of civil control over an area or territory: in a direct quote from the deleted material, where "the authority of the state is completely absent". Now when contributors bring forth these sources, they get harangued. The dismissive edit summary "not notable", that you used when deleting them, is completely unsubstantiated and flies in the face of the very fact that we're debating secondary sources that are talking about these issues. — Brianhe (talk) 23:42, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

term translation

« As for the claim "they don't use the term 'no-go zones'" I've addressed this above where Le Monde has given us strong reasons to treat zone de non-droit as equivalent in this context. » →‎ No you have not. Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 22:07, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

« it's about areas that are considered off-limits to either certain citizens, or law enforcement » →‎ It is about areas that are off-limits to non-muslims. Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 22:07, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

original research

«  I fail to see this in straight-up reporting of what newspapers and television stations say local leaders/law enforcment are saying about their own areas, for example this: "This echoed a description of Roubaix by French magazine Rue89, which wrote that the police no longer attempted to stop violence there." I just don't see OR or any editorial coloring at all. » →‎ Tips: do you see "no-go area" in "This echoed a description of Roubaix by French magazine Rue89, which wrote that the police no longer attempted to stop violence there." ? Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 22:07, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I do, yes. It fits the definition offered in the first sentence of this article: an area "barricaded off to civil authorities". I assume everyone would agree that the "barricades" here can be figurative, as opposed to literal. Perhaps the introduction should be clearer with the definition, though, and should offer more citations. Korny O'Near (talk) 22:15, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

"figurative" can mean anything, like policmen who are "barricaded" from founding the driver guilty of a car accident because he left without evidence, or the french policemen "barricaded" from entering the Paris ambassadies. Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 22:40, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I disagree with that, but if you think so, then probably it's best to modify the introduction; it's hard to have a discussion about no-go areas when there's no clear definition of what they are. Korny O'Near (talk) 00:08, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

I fail to see how modifying the introduction of the "No-go area" Wikipedia article would change my understanding of "figurative". Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 22:19, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

I think it's your understanding of "barricaded" that's off - it's not a synonym for "prevented". Anyway, the definition in the introduction could be quite a bit more precise. Korny O'Near (talk) 23:12, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

precedence

« Your edit summary, if I understood it correctly, said the deleted material copied Gatestone ("copied from the unreliable Gatestone report"), but in fact they were published earlier. » & « The deleted sources were published in 2010, 2012 and 2014, predating Gatestone. » →‎ Those materials were added, copied, plagiarised, copy-pasted, inspired by, very similar, or whatever word you want to use, by 643860529 and 645068115, after 2015-01-20. Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 22:07, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Please be civil. Would you refer to all research as plagiarism, or just the kind you disagree with? Korny O'Near (talk) 22:16, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I do not understand those 2 sentences. What do you mean and what are you talking about? Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 22:40, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm saying that you shouldn't have included "plagiarised" or "copy-pasted" in there, because it means that you're pointlessly accusing me and someone else of those things. Korny O'Near (talk) 00:10, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, this sentence make more sens. Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 22:19, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Question

Are the editors who would like to include more material here, trying to make a general point about anything that could be summarized? For example: "Many so-called no-go areas were mentioned by various leaders, writers and academics in Europe during the period 2010-2015 including but not limited to example 1 and example 2." Then if there is something to say regarding the historical context and/or analysis of these statements there is room to speak of them as a group and phenomenon. Which is more relevant than saying "So and so used the word no-go in 2010" which comes across as POV (weight, sourcing, etc). -- GreenC 15:54, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

The problem is that there are plenty of sources using the term 'no-go areas', but precious few even defining it as a term, never mind providing a context or historical analysis. Probably because the majority of recent sources are using it to project a particular POV. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:05, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm not against shortening the France- and Germany-related content, although it's not really that long to start with, especially given that this is in fact the subject of this article. Korny O'Near (talk) 16:31, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Seems to me there are some prerequisite questions that must have consensus answers before moving foward constructively. 1) Are 21st century European no-go zones a fringe theory? 2) Should they be discussed at all? 3) Is there a correct ratio of sources claiming or refuting their existence? 4) What are the characteristics of sources that should be allowed or excluded? Once these are settled maybe we can work on a new lede and article outline on a subpage. — Brianhe (talk) 17:20, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

" this is in fact the subject of this article"? No it isn't. Not if we are to give proper encyclopaedic coverage of the topic as a whole - which includes much more significant events than the latest round of ill-informed propagandising. In Northern Ireland for instance there were long-lived no-go areas, complete with barricades and armed patrols, recognised (de facto if not de jure) by the British state as beyond their control. Not even the most rabid pusher of the current claims about Europe has suggested that anything remotely on that scale has been occurring.

As for whether this is a 'fringe theory', I'd say no - because there is no theory at all to speak of, just vague assertions about usually unnamed areas being somehow or other under somebody other's control or influence to some extent or other. In the context of the current claims, 'no-go area' is little more than a term of abuse. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:31, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Would you consider the mayor of Amiens, France calling part of his city a no-go zone to be "a term of abuse"? Korny O'Near (talk) 23:24, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Personally, I would not consider this as "a term of abuse". Of course, since the mayor of Amiens did not call part of his city a no-go zone, then it is a thought experiment only. Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 21:28, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

"Many so-called no-go areas were mentioned by various leaders, writers and academics in Europe during the period 2010-2015 including but not limited to example 1 and example 2." →‎ Mentionned about what? Open a new store? Eat a porridge? Broke a window? Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 21:21, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Mentioned about existing, presumably. Korny O'Near (talk) 23:12, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you mate. Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 21:28, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

GreenC, why should it be added in the article that many areas that have been called "no-go zones" by some people "were mentioned by various leaders, writers and academics in Europe during the period 2010-2015"? Should it be added that Javel, Bercy and Paddington Waterside areas "were mentioned by various leaders, writers and academics in Europe during the period 2010-2015"? Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 21:28, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

It is absurd how the RS are being censored on this article. A certain user has repeatedly deleted RS from Le Figaro, Europe 1, and Radio Télévision Suisse. Pathetic. XavierItzm (talk) 21:44, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Are you talking about

1. this source
2. this source
3. this source

? Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 20:17, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

New 2015-02-06 source

Exerpt from Douglas Murray, More On "No-Go Zones": Displacing What Is Disagreeable, 2015-02-06, Gatestone Institute:

None of these areas is a place where non-Muslims are "forbidden" to go.

I guess that the quotation mark mean that the author refer to both literal and figurative meaninig of "forbidden". Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 21:21, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Section rename request

The section titled "Further reading" should be "See also". It consists of internal wikilinks, not formatted external references. Also, the link to a disambiguation page should be deleted per WP:SEEALSO. — Brianhe (talk) 19:39, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

@Brianhe: Partly done: That would have created two "See also" sections, one each side of the "References" section; so I've moved one entry to the existing "See also" section, and removed the remainder. --Redrose64 (talk) 20:27, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

"An early usage of the term"

Can I suggest that people actually take the time to read articles before contributing to them? We have an assertion about "An early usage of the term" no-go area in Europe dating to 2002. The section above explicitly describes no-go areas in Northern Ireland in the 1970's. And as far as I'm aware, the disputes behind The Troubles don't extend to whether the six counties are in Europe or not... AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:23, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

It should probably say "continental Europe". Brianhe (talk) 22:33, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

The issue here is that there have been massive deletions of all the early mentions of the term "no-go zone" by the BBC and others, such as:
* "no-go areas" (BBC, 25 April, 2001),
* "More than 400 'no-go' areas for Scottish ambulance staff", (BBC, 9 May 2012)
* "no-go areas for people of a different faith or race" (BBC, 6 January 2008).
* "'no-go-areas'" (The Ritchie Report, December 2001),
* ""no go" zones" (The Birmingham Mail, 29 Feb 2012)
Incredibly, all of these and many more were censored out by one single user several times, resulting in the general confusion and lack of sources now present in the article. XavierItzm (talk) 15:21, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

References

If you wish to propose specific text, based on particular sources, do so - in a new thread. Repeatedly spamming this talk page with complaints about 'censorship' is entirely unhelpful. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:22, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

The specific text proposed is to cite the various RS under "UK No Go Zones", the way it was before these were censored out. XavierItzm (talk) 04:03, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Proposed edit request

I think we have consensus for the following change, then Xavier's additional changes can be discussed? Request inserting the word "continental" at No-go area#Alleged modern no-go areas thus: "An early usage of the term regarding continental Europe was in a 2002 opinion piece..." Brianhe (talk) 07:31, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, but no. I have yet to see a source that states that this is 'early usage', and frankly doubt that one will be found. It is a simple fact that it was in common usage in relation to Northern Ireland long before, and why would anyone be interested in making specific assertions regarding its usage in relation to 'continental Europe' anyway? If the article is correct, and usage in reference to Rhodesia pre-dates the Northern Ireland example, whether it was first used in relation to say France in 2002 or whatever is even less significant.

And as for XavierItzm's attempts to drag this thread off-topic, I see no reason why we should even discuss the matter until we are at least provided with a diff of the disputed text - preferably in a thread where we aren't discussing something else entirely. AndyTheGrump (talk) 07:42, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Alright. I'll simply restore the content that was deleted before, so AndyTheGrump can see what it was (since apparently some can't be bothered to look at the citations, or to follow the history of the article), and we'll see if these get censored out again. XavierItzm (talk) 13:57, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Heh. I guess it'll have to be once the article gets unfrozen from its currently distorted form! Although it does say "indefinite," so maybe people do want to keep it that way. Whatever. XavierItzm (talk) 14:06, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

6 months later

Please change the ampersand in the section heading "France & United Kingdom" to the word "and". Thank you. Huw Powell (talk) 00:28, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Protection

This article was protected on 2015 02 07, and since then there has only been one edit two days later.

Surely by now it could at least be dropped to semi-protected?

I find it rather interesting that the article on "no-go area" is itself a no-go area. Huw Powell (talk) 00:24, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Great, it's done! Thus ends six months of pointless protection. Korny O'Near (talk) 13:43, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Brazilian favelas

These are classic unambiguous no-go areas. Police are regularly shot and killed when attempting to enter neighborhoods which are off limits to authorities. Should be no problem finding lots of sources calling favelas no-go areas. -- GreenC 15:39, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Most of this article is bogus. Delete or revise

Yeah so most of this article is completely inaccurate. A lot of unreliable sources are being used, and some of the sources used does not back up the article at all. For instance, there is absolutely nothing in the sources used for the Denmark section that backs up the article; First of all, the no go zones mentioned in the sources are zones imposed on the public by the Police, NOT the other way around. Second, what this article calls ethnic cleansing is actually just burglaries. Thats a major stretch.

The article is littered with stuff like this. The Sweden part is also highly inaccurate, and probably all of the other sections as well.

I call for deletion or a full, thorough cleanup.

Espenhs (talk) 09:31, 23 March 2016 (UTC)