User talk:Jimbo Wales

A few problems with Wikipedia

A. Admin noticeboards are useless for new/newish users...they often bring legitimate complaints about the improper behavior of more established users and they are almost always treated either utterly contemptuously, ignored, or "boomeranged" (a concept/practice that needs to be highly curtailed)..this chases away newish editors from Wikipedia (I've seen it happen many times with my own eyes in only a few months time).. B. these noticeboards are patrolled by the same 4 admins (I exaggerate only slightly) who largely display this bias...again, chasing away new editors.. C. blocks are utterly arbitrary in both instatement and length...I've seen blocks for similar behavior mostly directed toward new editors that were for a period of hours or a period of weeks or a full month.. D. unblock requests are patrolled by the same 4 largely block happy admins (I exaggerate only slightly).. This all amounts to new editors being 'bitten' like crazy at Wikipedia currently...(and I'm talking about good-faith contributors or people with obvious potential to be good contributors). I've tried in the recent past to put forth some ideas/proposals via the established channels but a small group that is part of this established status quo follows me around and sees via various strategies that the conversation is ended..I do believe what's described above needs to be examined by the foundation as the people responsible for these problems are also largely in charge of seeing to any changes to the status quo due to the inherent mechanisms of Wikipedia..Sincerely, 68.48.241.158 (talk) 15:46, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

Hey, 68.48.241.158, in prior years, Jimbo has investigated similar complaints since at least 2010, with the hope to "encourage troublesome editors to leave" but Wikipedia seems to act as a magnet for obsessive behavior, and discussions of "term limits" for admins (such as the 2006 limits imposed for admins on Swedish Wikipedia) has not worked here on enwiki. Thanks for taking time to indicate which problems are still happening, years later. Beyond the issues you listed, I have also noticed some admins reverting hundreds of good-faith edits for questionable cause. Previously, I would have recommended to counsel the blocked users to help them return; however, when I tried to help hounded users, then I was accused of "coaching editors to bypass policies" or "collusion" or improperly "wp:CANVASing" other editors to sway opinions. Perhaps there is a relevant discussion on Meta-Wiki, somewhere under META:Main_page. We'll see if Jimbo has any new advice about these problems. -Wikid77 (talk) 16:12, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

I continue to advocate for a jury system to address this concern. At some point I need to bring this to the Village Pump. --David Tornheim (talk) 11:42, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

The best way to fight this kind of abuse is for everyday, normal editors to pop by AN/I every couple days or once a week or something and to chime in sensibly when the lynch mobs are forming. Newcomers are at a disadvantage on the noticeboards and they need rational support when it is deserved. Carrite (talk) 02:16, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

the administering side of WP is a shockingly small universe..you see the same couple dozen editors everywhere...this invites problems, I firmly believe...WP needs new editors and needs editors to stick around to eventually become good admins who involve themselves in administration...WP has 600 admins and falling, apparently..68.48.241.158 (talk) 18:09, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

One needn't be an administrator to opine effectively at AN/I. There are a core of 3,500 or more people who could participate there even right now. Carrite (talk) 02:17, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Yes, that would be nice. I think it should be a REQUIREMENT. That's what I mean by jury duty--get neutral people to comment at the Noticeboards, not the same group of people with the same POV who constantly defend their friends--even refusing to look at the RS directly. Why should they bother looking at the RS, if their friends can always be trusted to have the right POV about it? Quite a "good ole boys" network we have. I support efforts to get this fixed! --David Tornheim (talk) 12:02, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

it's a very real problem but one has to very carefully pay attention to even notice it (as of course there's a huge amount of dealing with obvious vandals etc at these boards too)..solutions are not easy to come up with, however...will likely involve some very big picture ideas from the foundation etc...68.48.241.158 (talk) 12:53, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

@David Tornheim: Mandating that volunteers must participate in some forum is a recipe for disaster. However, a voluntary jury duty concept has some appeal to me. In fact, I wrote up a proposal, Tour of Duty which is a sort of voluntary jury duty, coupled with a yet-to-be-fully-defined process for determining which are the under served areas. Spending time at under served notice boards might well make the cut.--S Philbrick(Talk) 18:53, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Indeed. That's why bringing things to Noticeboards is often unproductive. Same editors from the talk page who are being a problem just follow you there and create walls of text to keep neutral parties from wanting to participate in the drama or a discussion that is TL;DR. --David Tornheim (talk) 12:02, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

@Carrite: That is a great idea, and having seen the problem described in this section, I tried just that--participating as an uninvolved party at various noticeboards. Unfortunately, I was almost immediately rebuked for participating and told by one or two admins it was none of my business, please go away, that was their job.

In one case, when I tried to be an NPOV voice against a lynch mob, one of the editors retaliated. So, yeah, great idea in theory, but no good when those who claim ownership attack you for standing up to them and can easily get away with it since they know their friends will back them up even when they are wrong. --David Tornheim (talk) 11:55, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Before taking this complaint too seriously, consider the source... The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 18:31, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

^right on cue (this is the admin who blocked me for seeking recourse against his WP friend who was behaving against policy..when I sought the recourse at a noticeboard the friend went directly to this admin's talkpage and told him to block me...it's all there to be seen if anyone really want to..)68.48.241.158 (talk) 18:43, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Setting aside your blatant misrepresentation of the scenario, given how many different admins have blocked you one might start to think that there's a common denominator here; and hint, that one consistent quantity isn't the different admins. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 19:13, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

With no TP access either... :) _Muffled ^Pocketed 19:17, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

^more will likely be along to, ironically, prove my point...I invite all to examine my account/talk page....particularly anyone at the foundation/Mr. Wales..it's an illustrative case (admittedly there are a few things I would have done differently but only back when I was brand, brand new to editing)..68.48.241.158 (talk) 19:22, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Last time you went down this road you were blocked for a month, and the only mistake was not making it 6. Do give some further thought to my statement above. Also, would you please indent your posts, it's not that hard. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 20:45, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

^He's correct, Mr. Wales, I have been harassed/blocked/stalked for even daring to make posts like the OP I made here on your talk page..the above admin's posts in this thread are alarming and indicative of the problem being discussed, so in that sense it's beneficial to see them here..68.48.241.158 (talk) 00:01, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

^Where is this all going on. What's your best evidence that requires the min. amount of reading to dispute what they are saying against you? I know there are usually two sides to every story of drama. --David Tornheim (talk) 00:33, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

it would simply take a ton of time to get a proper sense of things..one would have to dig through my contribution history, trace the circumstances that have led to my blocks back to their very beginnings, dig up discussions I initiated at noticeboards/village pump etc...many hours would be involved...it's possible (though unlikely) somebody at the foundation would be interested in looking into it as an illustrative case...a superficial look into it would very likely lead to a false impression..68.48.241.158 (talk) 00:47, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

I suggest you work on your storytelling skills. Why do you expect someone from the foundation to go through your contribs and tell your story if you can't? That could take hours. Who has the time? --David Tornheim (talk) 03:38, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

If I wrote something up that provided proper context and explanation it would literally have to be dozens of book pages in length, including scores and scores of "diffs"...I just don't have the time for that..and the info is already out in the open anyway for anyone to see and compiled via my contribution history..it could be looked at as a potential illustrative case by someone at/associated with the foundation (of course this is very unlikely to happen, I'm sure)..68.48.241.158 (talk) 11:27, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

My guess is that anyone neutral who looks at this will come away wondering why Wikipedia put up with you for so long. Of course, I'm asking the question myself and failing to come up with a decent answer besides thinking this site is often less than efficient at disposing of people who blur the line between outright trolls and staggeringly gross incompetence. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:30, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

this thread is discussing a culture problem that you are a part of so I mean....and your contributions here speak for themselves and demonstrate this (I won't respond to you anymore here to not make this thread too big etc)..68.48.241.158 (talk) 02:47, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

To the extent I'm part of a culture problem, it's by virtue of not having blocked you for 6 months or a year myself. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:53, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

A problem here may be that complaints like this tend to have a strong "usual suspects" aspects about them. I guess the best way to test to see if there really exists a problem is to let volunteers who have been around here a long time who have a clean record, edit incognito using a new accounts. They will simulate being newcomers, making elementary mistakes (e.g. not sign comments) to make sure they indeed look like newcomers. Count Iblis (talk) 06:28, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

I once tried to broach the very idea you suggest; then was not its time, but I do agree. In my opinion, Wikipedia needs an organ that functions on a level par with the Inspector General's relationship with the government it serves. Best regards.--John Cline (talk) 08:51, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

For a brief case study: incredibly, the issues I describe in the OP exactly played out just again to me. See my contribution history beginning July 15th at 10:48 going forward until blocked. You would have to read the entire initial ANI thread for context, the new ANI thread I was forced to then create and the activity on my talk page related to these..(notice the inability of most involved to even be able to properly comprehend the situation at hand due to apparent lazy/poor reading skills..) Anyway, potentially helpful to examine...(perhaps watch my account too as I expect continued retaliation)..and probably several editors will quickly be here to mischaracterize the situation so look at it all yourself (you'll note the usual suspects also referencing my previous blocks, none of which were proper..but, again, as I explained above it would just be logistically impossible for me to explain all that here)..68.48.241.158 (talk) 18:55, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Need WMF voter judgment tools

Although the wp:ANI sanction-decision process has been difficult to reform, the wp:developers could create software gadgets to impose a broader judgment process by the operation of voting tools. Beyond the distraction of creating a wp:FLOW message system, after the slow wp:LiquidThreads, the WMF could actually implement tools with new features to invite a quorum of uninvolved users to decide the fate of new editors who oppose wp:TAGTEAMs of entrenched editors trying to force false consensus of decisions. The WMF would merely develop a voting tool, released to allow any targeted user to request a broad vote, and then finally a larger "mob" would help decide issues rather than just an insider team. Such use of computer tools, to broaden decision procedures, has been used for decades in other organizations to break deadlocks where organizations could not otherwise improve decision systems. -Wikid77 (talk) 22:52, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

this is potentially a good idea...like pinging a bunch of random though active/experienced editors to request they come look at an ANI thread...68.48.241.158 (talk) 13:22, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

Excellent idea. I am ready to start work on putting these ideas together in a single place and having something like a "congress" (e.g. Continental Congress) to hash out details, gain broader consensus, so that the same insiders who want to maintain control won't be able to derail any good efforts at reform with their nay-saying, "it won't work" attitudes. --David Tornheim (talk) 18:45, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

As might be expected, there are wp:developers who would/could work on "something new" (rather than re-hash same tools of prior 15 years). For example, when the Lua script interface was installed in 2013, I noted to the developers how the speed of "#invoke" seemed very slow, and a developer in the area quickly found a way to adjust Lua as 2x faster within a few weeks, as effectively making most Lua-based templates run 2x faster (for small templates). -Wikid77 (talk) 15:13, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

If only you had a way to ping random experienced editors to participate in such a discussion... ;-) Carrite (talk) 14:31, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

I think previously we had discussed a "sign-up" option, such as with wp:FRS feedback user-lists, and perhaps only use the jury-tool when requested by the wp:ANI defendant ("victim"), where otherwise many people would accept sanctions in realizing they were "wrong", so relatively few people would ask for a broader vote, such as facing wp:topic ban sanctions. -Wikid77 (talk) 15:13, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Didn't we look at the FRS source code and weren't able to figure out how it distributes requests? @Harej: how does it do that? Is it fair? Are human decisions involved in the distribution of FRS requests? EllenCT (talk) 20:08, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Quickpolls. This was piloted back in 2005 but discontinued six months later. --MuZemike 06:08, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

That wp:Quickpolls process (from March 2004) was a 24-hour vote to back an admin's decision, but the slower 7-day "wp:Quickpolls#Alternative proposal: Slowpolls" gave a whole week to decide further sanctions, yet advised that the opposed admin should lose admin status when losing the vote, and hence the Slowpolls was untenable to gain agreement, as bundling user sanctions versus admin desysop. However, the Quickpolls trial provides more (12-year) evidence of how processes are difficult to gain approval, and therefore, creating a new WMF voter tool might be easier to approve than altering a WP policy. -Wikid77 (talk) 14:31, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Need edit-limit tools

Another way the wp:developers could radically alter WP edit-battles would be by implementing some per-user, per-page edit-limit tools, such that the suspected editors would be restricted to only "10 edits" per week/month to the specific page(s). In prior years, WP has had problems with editors pruning pages to remove crucial details by soon making 100 minor "innocent" edits, to perform "death by a thousand cuts" to cleverly slant an article by partially removing many opposing facts. A related problem is rapidly edit-conflicting a page (to deter other editors) by edit-saving various small changes every minute to conflict-out other users for many minutes or an hour. To improve tool efficiency, such per-user edit-limits could be based on user complaints of excessive edits, rather than limit every user who edits a chosen page. At the limit, rather than an admin needing to warn (or block) the editor, instead the edit-limit tool would deny access to edit-mode of the page (perhaps as a combination of usernames and related IP addresses). Obviously such edit-limits could be bypassed (with effort), but in general, computer-run limits tend to have the expected effect on curtailing the unwanted user actions. -Wikid77 (talk) 15:13, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Sounds good. Where is the IdeaLab proposal for it? EllenCT (talk) 20:04, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Hi

Do you mind if i watch ur talk and periodically maintain it Just to help after u have done such great things! — VarunFEB2003 ^{I am Offline} 14:03, 13, July, 2016 (UTC)

I don't know if Jimbo himself will reply to your question, but I'm sure he wouldn't mind another talk page watcher in addition to the thousands of watchers that he already has! CabbagePotato (talk) 07:10, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

It's a wiki. I do have a bias towards good writing, I must say, so "ur talk" and "after u have done" don't give a lot of confidence.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:27, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

Note the OP declares as a citizen of India. These expressions seem to be much more accepted in India, even among educated and professional people. I've had several Indian colleagues use "u" and "ur" in formal correspondence and have gently explained to them that it does not convey an impression of professionalism. So it doesn't look great, but we should keep in mind cultural differences in usage. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 13:59, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Fair enough, and I hope I didn't sound too harsh.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:31, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

*doesn't 86.20.193.222 (talk) 17:38, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

It should be don't. "Doesn't" is singular whereas "don't" is plural. Zaereth (talk) 23:58, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

Actually, a case can be made here for either usage - the two examples basically can be viewed as being "this use of chatspeak" (collectively then) as a single example in modern English usage. Collect (talk) 13:15, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Your explanation do not inspire any confidence. (sic) 86.20.193.222 (talk) 11:08, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

• England doesn't score many goals in major tournaments. (American)
• England don't score many goals in major tournaments. (British) Smallbones_(smalltalk) 13:54, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

LOL. I mean Laughing Out Loud. --David Tornheim (talk) 18:40, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

Sorry Jimmy wales its right in India we use "ur and u" formally also, Ill take care next time sorry — VarunFEB2003 I am Online 14:04, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

JW might also have noted your contributions (such as they are) to his one of his 'great things'- 7.7% are even to article-space... _Muffled ^Pocketed 14:21, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Dunno. JW doesn't have a lot of room to get snooty with the colors of the pie graph... Carrite (talk) 16:41, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Ha! The bloke who runs the kingdom doesn't have to buy his own beans. _Muffled ^Pocketed 16:51, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

The old arXiv blog was a lot more fun to read than the present one. Count Iblis (talk) 20:40, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

A kitten for you!

Hey Jimbo do you think I am improving as an editor?[1]

EllenCT (talk) 02:58, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Gerald Walpin undeleted after killed by SUV

The page "Gerald Walpin" was undeleted on 6 July 2016 per the June DRV, two weeks after the SUV accident in Manhattan. We found sources about him given awards or honors as a prominent NYC attorney, which could be added to the page. Vehicle stats estimate annual 4,700 U.S. pedestrian deaths in recent years, or average 91 killed per week, as up 15% since 2009, possibly due to increased mobile phone use in U.S. as "distracted walking" or distracted driving as trying to phone (read or text?) at intersections. Safety campaigns have advised, "Pick your head up and put the phone down" at crosswalks. Walpin was hit before noon and died in the hospital that day. -Wikid77 (talk) 14:47, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Pages about concrete barriers and barricades

Several other-language Wikipedias also have some pages about concrete barriers and barricades to deter traffic accidents and protect pedestrian walkways. There are numerous options to block vehicles, including many decorative concrete barriers as shown on Swedish Wikipedia (page: sv:Betongsugga) as safer rounded "bounce-off" obstacles, beyond the industrial Jersey barriers to be used around the Republican National Convention (RNC) in Cleveland, Ohio. Even a rectangular park bench can trip a person along sharp corners, so rounded barriers are also people-friendly for crowds. In the U.S. many (confused) people have driven into buildings or stores (several in stolen trucks to rob a store then ditch the truck), perhaps every day of the year. Many beach towns have dangerous walkways along the seawall boulevards or fast beach highways, where bicycles and pedestrians are at great risk. I think Alabama has decided to close some entire beach-area roads for exclusive use by bicycles and pedestrians, possibly because the severe, deadly risk from (distracted) vehicle traffic cannot be controlled any other way. Also, any roadside barriers, which would protect pedestrians along roadways, also create an impact hazard for distracted drivers (or bicycles), so there is a balance trade-off of pedestrian-versus-driver safety. However, the WP pages about barricades (in each language) could offer more about moving temporary barriers (by forklift?) to protect street festivals or farmer's markets during the active days. The RNC in Cleveland is installing staggered rows of Jersey barriers, as so many obstacles that even a large heavy truck would be stopped (or ruined), but allow pedestrians, bicycles, carts or prams to weave between the islands of barriers. These barriers are an important subject which WP is covering, and could help change the way the world will design roadways and festival areas in the future. -Wikid77 (talk) 15:31, 16 July 2016 (UTC)