Talk:Holodomor

Genocide

How can there be any doubt that it was genocide? It was demonstrably a deliberate attempt to starve the entire population of Ukraine to death. I am asking because I don't see why this is disputed in the lede. (217.42.104.153 (talk) 20:10, 8 May 2016 (UTC))

Because the entire question of Holodomor as being 'genocide' is disputed. Please read through the archived talk pages and related articles. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:03, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

There is no doubt that Stalin deliberately starved Ukraine, therefore it is undeniably a genocide. (217.42.104.153 (talk) 23:07, 8 May 2016 (UTC))

Please read the top of this article talk page as I've already asked of you on your own talk page: this is an article talk page, not a WP:SOAPBOX. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 06:55, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

There is a dispute over whether Stalin targeted Ukrainians specifically. Most reliable sources say he did not. TFD (talk) 07:05, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

Which are the most reliable ? Xx236 (talk) 13:13, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

There is no doubt the starvation was deliberately aimed at Ukraine, and it is offensive to pretend otherwise. Only Russian nationalists try to deny that this was a genocide. (217.35.237.95 (talk) 12:20, 11 May 2016 (UTC))

Of course there is plenty of doubt. Read the article. Look at the maps. Russia was also affected. The grain confiscation in Ukraine was administered by Ukrainians. Lazar Kaganovich, Stanislav Kosior, Mendel Khataievich, Pavel Postyshev, Stanislav Redens, Vsevolod Balytsky, all Ukrainians, were some of the leading perpetrators of the disaster. Grain confiscation in Russia was administered by Russians. If the Ukrainian Holodomor was a genocide, it was a genocide by Soviet Ukrainians against Ukrainian peasants. Commenters also tend to overlook the fact that the Soviet Union was beset by repeated famines after WWI because of the primitive state of agriculture in the Soviet Union. Activist academics like Nikolai Starikov suggest that it didn't help that the west demanded payment for machinery in grain and timber only at a time when the Soviets were desperate for farm machinery to jump-start Soviet agriculture. In other words, the main Holodomor villains were actually the Brits. I'm just suggesting here that this topic is far below a minimum academic standard, and could use a great deal more diligent research and a great deal LESS name-calling and finger-pointing. It's got the makings of a great spy novel, for sure. Santamoly (talk) 06:18, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

WP:SOAP applies to everyone. This isn't a page for speeches (as you've implied yourself below)... and reiterating your own PPOV picked up from your own preferred blogs and forums serves no purpose but to promote a POV. Please save the oversimplification for the blogs and forums you visit. Thanks. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 20:46, 12 June 2016 (UTC)

Basic knowledge is useful - Kosior and Redens were born Polish.Xx236 (talk) 06:08, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

Then without getting bogged down in "oversimplification", how do we explain the presence of Polish-Ukrainians at the helm of a Ukrainian "genocide"? Santamoly (talk) 05:12, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Santamoly - Lazar Kaganovich and Mendel Khataievich were Jews, not Ukrainian [like many of the Old Bolsheviks] and the others were Poles — Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.97.64.130 (talk) 22:40, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

So, according to you, there was no such thing as a Ukrainian Jew? "Santamoly - Lazar Kaganovich and Mendel Khataievich were Jews, not Ukrainian"- That statement is every bit as stupid as one claiming "Einstein was Jewish, not German." 74.215.219.209 (talk) 04:24, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

" In other words, the main Holodomor villains were actually the Brits". Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha, yeah, sure they were. The MAIN villains"? Yeah, that comment isn't completely asinine. Not at all. Just when you thought Wikipedia couldn't get any more ridiculous. One can always expect ideologically sound entries from people who, in seeming seriousness, claim the "main villains" aren't the people who, you know, actually planned and perpetrated the particular atrocity in question. No one who claims the British are the primary culprits most responsible for the Ukrainian famine, you know the one deliberately engineered by former British Prime Minister Joseph Stalin, should be allowed anywhere near this entry, ever. Now I think I'm going to head on over to, oh, I don't know, the "Rape of Nanking" talk page so I can read which Western country is the "main villain" really responsible for that atrocity. 74.215.219.209 (talk) 04:51, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

IP 74.215.219.209 and IP 38.97.64.130: read the section below and understand that it applies to you both. Enough. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:11, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

The person who wrote that utterly ludicrous claim about the British seems to believe he is the ultimate arbiter for this entry. It will be ENOUGH when someone who peddles such abject silliness isn't allowed anywhere near this entry.74.215.219.209 (talk) 05:14, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

It was genocide

Why is the article pretending it wasn't deliberate? Is the site controlled by Putin fanatics? (109.158.178.195 (talk) 12:21, 18 June 2016 (UTC))

Did you actually read the article? --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 15:38, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

This IP is a sock of User:HarveyCarter, trolling as usual. Nick-D (talk) 07:33, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

What does Putin have to do with the holodomor? Can you explain? Santamoly (talk) 05:22, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Putin is a vocal supporter of Stalin's actions in Unkraine. (109.159.10.217 (talk) 15:58, 26 June 2016 (UTC))

As far as anyone can tell, Putin has consistently and openly criticised Stalin; although he has said occasionally said that Stalin wasn't worse than Hitler: [1]. The trend today in Russia is to not paper over the tyrants and butchers of the past, but to learn where they came from and why they existed. Santamoly (talk) 06:28, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

Putin is an unelected dictator like Stalin, and he has regularly defended his genocides and his illegal invasions of sovereign countries. (109.159.10.109 (talk) 09:12, 11 July 2016 (UTC))

My source contradicts you. You don't offer a source. Santamoly (talk) 22:15, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

There are multiple sources online of Putin defending his hero Stalin's genocide. Try typing putin stalin into google. (81.159.6.88 (talk) 18:01, 14 July 2016 (UTC))

My sources are listed in my edits; you're just spouting hot air. Less kind-hearted people would call it "foaming at the mouth". Regardless, it's called "trolling" and doesn't belong in Wikipedia Santamoly (talk) 01:31, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

Santamoly, stop using this talk page as a WP:SOAPBOX. The 'rehabilitation' of Stalin as the brainchild of Putin and his administration is well documented in reliable sources: For Putin, For Stalin; Stalin, Russia's New Hero; Putin Denounces Lenin, Says Stalin Got it Right; Putin, once critical of Stalin, now embraces Soviet dictator's tactics; Russia's Vladimir Putin resurrects 'our saviour' Joseph Stalin; Don't be fooled by the lovable, new-look hipster Stalin. That's barely the tip of the iceberg, so try keeping up with the news... and don't respond to trolling as an opportunity to push your own POV. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:17, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia is very clear on this issue. Nearly every talk page on wiki that I know of includes a note at the top that says "assume good faith" and "avoid personal attacks". Saying "Is the site controlled by Putin fanatics?" is not good faith, it is not avoiidng personal attacks, and above all it is not constructive. Office worm (talk) 20:57, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

Reminder that this talk page is not a forum

The talk sections above are explicitly WP:FORUM. Please stop using this page as a forum: try going to a forum. Unless you have constructive comments to make about the content, and the content at issue is backed up by reliable sources (plus haven't been discussed to death in the archived talk), stop using it to rabbit on about Stalin, Putin (who is further covered by WP:BLPVIO on talk pages), and whoever and whatever you want to make personal assertions about, plus flame each other about. Enough trolling. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:56, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Direct responsibility for the implementation of Stalin's policies

The responsibility of Genrikh Yagoda for the implementation of Stalin's policies in Ukraine is a known fact.

It is a relevant information for the article and as such should be mentioned. -- EatsSweets (talk) 20:13, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Yes, but not in the lede.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:28, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Honestly, I don't know how to make this edit. -- EatsSweets (talk) 00:00, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

I have talked to a helper on the Wikipedia IRC channel and he recommended me to insert the changes into a particular place, which I did in my recent edit here. This edit has been reverted due to WP:POV, WP:CON, WP:DUE. Comment from Ymblanter above ack'd the edit already. If you think that a mention of the person responsible for the implementation of the policies is not relevant for the article then you should remove all the other names as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EatsSweets (talk • contribs) 23:51, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

There were MANY officials responsible for the holodomor implementation, and there in no reason to single Yagoda out.--Lute88 (talk) 23:55, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Also, which 'other' names should be removed? The only name being used at the moment is that of Stalin. The WP:TITLE of this article is "Holodomor", not "List of Soviet infrastructure placed in charge of implementing Holodomor". --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:02, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

I was the editor EatsSweets talked to on IRC, and I indeed advised him that the body of the article might be a suitable place if Yagoda was to be mentioned. At a closer look I have to conclude that the addition was unsuitable for several reasons: Firstly, it's factually incorrect in the details; at the time of the Holodomor Yagoda was not head of the NKVD but assistant director of the OGPU. That could be fixed, but secondly, the given references are problematic. One is a pamphlet hosted on someone's personal website. Apparently it was once published in the Toronto Sun, but since the author does not discuss Yagoda's role in any detail and does not assign sole responsibility for implementing the forced collectivization to him (and gets his title wrong), it's not helpful. I could not find "Holodomor: the Ukrainian holocaust" on either Google Scholar, Google Books or WorldCat. A web search brings up quite a few citations, many Wikipedia-related, but not the work itself nor any evidence that it exists. The third source is highly reliable but does not assign responsibility for forced collectivization to Yagoda. Historians seem to disagree with each other on Yagoda's role in the Holodomor, with some arguing he was demoted for not being ruthless enough. Summarizing all that as "Yagoda was directly responsible" is at best a gross oversimplification of a complex topic, and I doubt this article is the appropriate place to explore Yagoda's role. Huon (talk) 00:27, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

@Huon: I've actually communicated with the EatsSweets on their talk page. The motivation behind the inclusion of the content is distinctly WP:NOTHERE, and I'm not prepared to even tolerate the beginnings of a discussion of the introduction of WP:FRINGE theories of this calibre on this talk page (or any other talk page). Cheers for chasing up the sources! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:42, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

@Huon: Thank you for following up in this Talk Page. The first source you refer to has in the header "Holodomor: the Ukrainian holocaust". The Torronto Sun article is referenced in multiple works, including Ukrainian newspapers. The reference for Yagoda's responsibility for the implementation of Stalin's policies as an assistant director of OGPU is mentioned in the first source.. It says: "Yagoda commanded the GPU of Ukraine, Belarus, and the NCT to act in accordance with his memorandum of the preceding day and 'immediately arrest all [peasants] who were making their way from Ukraine and the NCT and submit them to thorough filtration.'"

There's also a document stating he was sending reports to Stalin about the results of his operations and that he had sent the draft of an order to the OGPU on the campaign against theft of grain to Stalin. This has broadened the OGPU’s authority to include organization of grain storage. Your reference of him being demoted for his unsatisfactory performance supports the fact that he was the one in charge, even if only through the chain of command.

If these sources are enough to establish the fact of Yagoda's role in the Holodomor then there's no reason to further explore his role in the article itself. The one sentence in the edit is simply a mention of this fact, not a discussion about his role. I believe it should be mentioned since the works on this topic also mention his role in the Holodomor and because people responsible for crimes are usually attributed for their crimes, such as in Bosnian genocide and Armenian Genocide.

NOTE: As you can see above from Iryna's reply, regardless of all the provided sources, this has been automatically disregarded as a fringe theory and I have been labelled as WP:NOTHERE. Since she claims to be 'not prepared to even tolerate the beginnings of a discussion', you can assess for yourself how much objectivity and professionalism the opponents of this edit have. It wouldn't surprise me if I'll get banned soon, just for pointing it out. -- EatsSweets (talk) 03:49, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

I don't know if Yagoda was a notable executor to be listed here, but I know that the answer should be academic, not one found in a newspaper article. The Communist Party ruled so the leaders in Moscow and in Ukraine were responsible. The OGPU was a toool, one of many. Party and Komsomol activists robbed peasants of food. Many Germans claim that Adolf Hitler murdered the Jews, they prefer to forget their grandfathers participation. Yagoda was a vintik in the machine.

You haven't been labelled as WP:NOTHERE, but your contribution. At the same time you write about your opponents, rather than about their edits. Please - less emotions.Xx236 (talk) 06:19, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

The referenced text is: Roman Serbyn Holodomor: The Ukrainian Genocide, the listed authors are editors of the book. The book mentiones Yagoda on four pages only.Xx236 (talk) 06:34, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

@Xx236:There are multiple other sources listed above that support the this fact. Saying that the Communist Party is responsible is really just removing the blame from anyone else regardless of their actions and role in the whole chain of command. As I have pointed out before, the people that command others to commit genocide are attributed for their crimes in other similar articles, such as Ratko Mladic in case of the Srebrenica Massacre. He was a general, not the leader, yet he's held responsible. You don't provide any sources about the Communist party nor the Komsomol having knowledge about the actions during the Holodomor. It has been already mentioned that Yagoda sent reports directly to Stalin, not the Communist Party.

If you read about the meaning of WP:NOTHERE, you can see that it describes an editor (a person) that is not here to build the Wikipedia. You can follow up on my Talk page about Iryna's previous comments. Also, my comment was describing the nature of the edits here. They are unconstructive and don't even discuss the matter at hand, just directly dismiss it as WP:FRINGE regardless if it falls outside of the definition, because both academic and newspaper sources were provided.

I don't understand how it is relevant that the book mentions him only on four pages, since his name might be omitted elsewhere because of the context and because the book describes the whole Holodomor as such. Your mention of many people believing that Adolf Hitler killed the Jews, instead of attributing their grandfathers, leaves me puzzled. It wasn't Hitler was carrying out the murders. Indeed, in the Holocaust article it's the SS that is mentioned as the one coordinating the process. Reinhard Heydrich is mentioned specifically as the chief of Reich Main Security Office and they were the ones carrying out policy against the Jews described in the Heydrich's report. This is what I'm trying to add to this article. Simply naming the chief of the organization that is held responsible. -- EatsSweets (talk) 16:34, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

NKVD was a tool of the Communist party (Stalin's). The division of responsibilty between NKVD in Ukraine and the CP of Ukraine was more complicated.Xx236 (talk) 09:40, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

Party and Komsomol activists invided villages and robbed food. Xx236 (talk) 09:40, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

German law system after the war punished low level executors rather than Nazi politicians who designed and controlled the Holocaust. Some German sources push the responsibility from the German Nazi state to local thugs. Irving tried to prove that Hitler didn't know about the Holocaust. Please don't go this way. Stalin and his team (Political Bureau) ruled and were responsible. Absolute power creates also absolute responsibility.

Please quote your source that OGPU was the only responsible. The PB member Lazar Kaganovich personally oversaw grain confiscations, so Yagoda was his subordinate. Xx236 (talk) 09:47, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

@Xx236:"On 30th January 1930 the Politburo approved the liquidation of kulaks as a class. Vyacheslav Molotov was put in charge of the operation. According to Simon Sebag Montefiore, the author of Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar (2003),"

"In 1922 Cheka was replaced by the All-Union State Political Administration (OGPU). On the death of Dzerzhinsky in 1926, Vyacheslav Menzhinsky became the new head of the organization and Yagoda became his first deputy."

"During 1930 this policy led to 2,200 rebellions involving more than 800,000 people. Lazar Kaganovich and Anastas Mikoyan led expeditions into the countryside with "brigades of OGPU troopers and armoured trains like warlords". Lavrenti Beria, who was involved in this operation, recalled: "When we Bolsheviks want to get something done, we close our eyes to everything else." ... "Yagoda's men were involved in this operation and according Raphael R. Abramovitch, the author of The Soviet Revolution: 1917-1939 (1962), Yagoda told Stalin that the "only way of dealing with the kulaks was with bullets. One OGPU official admitted: "We have executed some twenty or thirty thousand persons, perhaps fifty thousand."

"KYIV -- President Viktor Yushchenko has praised a Ukrainian court ruling that finds former Soviet leaders culpable in the mass famine in Ukraine in 1932-33, RFE/RL's Ukrainian and Russian services report." ... "The list of leaders found guilty by the court of organizing "genocide of a Ukrainian ethnic group" and murdering millions of people included Soviet leader Josef Stalin, his close associates Vyacheslav Molotov and Lazar Kaganovich, Soviet Ukrainian Communist Party officials Pavel Postyshev and Stanislav Kosior, and Ukrainian politicians Vlas Chubar and Mendel Hataevich."

The court verdict from 2010 is the most recent document regarding the responsibility for the Holodomor. The people found guilty, apart from Stalin, were all part of the PB as you have suggested. The OGPU were implementing the policies (doing the executions), but don't bear the final responsibility. So, your previous statement was correct. I stand corrected.

This verdict is already mentioned in the article, so there's probably no reason to further expand on this issue. -- EatsSweets (talk) 23:15, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

References

Ukrainian Genocide

The Holodomor is more widely referred to as the Ukrainian Genocide. (109.149.224.100 (talk) 00:31, 28 August 2016 (UTC))

Do you have reliable sources to back this up? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:55, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

A quick search online reveals multiple sources calling the Holodomor the Ukrainian Genocide and the Soviet Genocide of Ukraine. (165.120.240.72 (talk) 11:08, 28 August 2016 (UTC))

A quick search online does not reflect how it is treated in subject-specific academic sources. Also, please read through the talk page archives. The WP:TITLE of this article has been discussed many, many times over... and no decisions as to the nomenclature for any Wikipedia article has ever been made on the basis of a 'quick search online'. "Holodomor" is the WP:COMMONNAME. As for 'Ukrainian Genocide', that's why we've got an article on the Holodomor genocide question. Whether it was genocide or not is heavily debated, therefore the WP:NPOV title should remain as the academic COMMONNAME. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:02, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

The article on the Armenian Genocide uses that title, even though Turkey still denies it was a genocide. Therefore it doesn't matter if Russia still disputes that the Holodomor was a genocide. (81.132.48.67 (talk) 11:20, 29 August 2016 (UTC))

The most common name in reliable sources is Ukrainian famine. The Holodomor name is used because it implies genocide. Most reliable sources do not use the term genocide because it is normally used to imply that the motivation was the elimination of an ethnic group. And of course it is irrelevant how the state responsible or any state for that matter choses to call it. TFD (talk) 14:52, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

The Holodomor is almost universally called the Ukrainian Genocide. As the Armenian Genocide is called by its correct title on this site the Holodomor should be too. (5.81.223.157 (talk) 15:42, 29 August 2016 (UTC))

This is not a Wikipedia policy.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:46, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

Many sources call it the Ukrainian Genocide of 1932-33. (5.81.223.157 (talk) 16:27, 29 August 2016 (UTC))

@Iryna Harpy: A court ruling from 2010 regarding the responsibility for the Holodomor supports the statement that Holodomor is classified as a genocide:

"Judge of the Chamber of Criminal Appeal Court of Kyiv Skavronik VM, the Secretary Bondarenko MS, with the participation of the Prosecutor of Kyiv Prosecutor's Office Department Dotsenko AM made a preliminary review of the criminal case number 1-33 / 2010 instituted the Security Service of Ukraine on the fact of committing genocide in Ukraine in 1932-1933 for the crime under Part. 1, Art. 442 of the Criminal Code of Ukraine regarding ..." -- EatsSweets (talk)

It may be classified as a genocide in Ukrainian jursiprudence. What is important however is how it is considered in academic writing that is generally accepted. Most experts do not believe that "extermination of the Ukrainian nation" was a motivation for the famine. TFD (talk) 00:59, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Which experts?

Any sources?

Ukraine didn't have the obshchina tradition, so the collectivization was probably more difficult there. BTW - many Germans created fictional kolkhoses instead to resist. I don't know how long did the fictional ones survived.Xx236 (talk) 07:14, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

In Stalin's Genocides, Norman M. Naimark writes, "Some scholars isolate the Ukrainian killer famine of 1932-33 to support a claim of genocide against Stalin." (p. 3)[2] He later writes, "The question of whether the Ukrainian famine of 1932-33 can be considered genocide has been a source of considerable historiographical contention...." (p. 70) We cannot say that the famine was genocide unless we can show that there is academic consensus for the claim, as is the case for example with the Holocaust. And the claim is made by a minority ("some," not "most"). Where the claim is most vocally expressed is in the political rather than academic field. So that there is no question, the dispute is not whether Stalin committed mass killings but whether their objection was the destruction of the Ukrainian people, rather than other political reasons. was it more comparable to Hitler's murder of the Jews or to Stalin's murder of Russian citizens of the Soviet Union. TFD (talk) 10:52, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

You write Stalin's murder of Russian citizens. Stalin orderd to murder Soviet citizens, especially minorities - Polish Operation of the NKVD (1937–38), Operation Lentil (Caucasus) rather than Russian citizens.

Please prove that Ukrainians weren't victims of the genocide. Kasakh people were also vicitims, unfortunately there are only few sources in English.Xx236 (talk) 06:14, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

Naimark is one of many authors. Xx236 (talk) 06:16, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

To start with, this is your responsibility to prove that it was a genocide, or, to be precise, that there is a consensus in the academic world (not just in Ukraine) that it was. So far, we have seen zero evidence of this consensus.--Ymblanter (talk) 06:44, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant Soviet citizens of all nationalities. Indeed Naimark sees at least some of these murders as genocide. He also says that most scholars do not. I do not have to prove that the murders of Ukrainians were not genocide, I do not even have to believe that, and in fact I do not know the answer. What you and I must do is follow content policy, which is to ensure that the article gives due weight to different opinions in secondary sources according to the weight they have there. Our opinions are irrelevant. Our arguments and proofs are irrelevant. TFD (talk) 10:32, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

References

Other names

It's also known as the Ukrainian Holocaust, the Soviet Starvation of Ukraine, and Stalin's Mass Starvation of Ukraine. (86.137.48.241 (talk) 11:28, 12 September 2016 (UTC))

Figures for the genocide

I had always heard that up to 20 million people were deliberately murdered in the Soviet starvation of the Ukrainians. (JimPurvis (talk) 19:11, 22 September 2016 (UTC))

See the cited sources in the article that place the figure anywhere from 2.4 to 7.5 million. General Ization ^Talk 19:36, 22 September 2016 (UTC)