Talk:Controversial Reddit communities

Merger proposal

I propose that Michael Brutsch be merged into Controversial Reddit communities. I think that the content in the Michael Brutsch article can easily be explained in the context of Controversial Reddit Communities.

From the latest Michael Brutsch AFD discussion: "Keep and rename. This should be so obvious, as the article is about an incident, not a person. The incident is notable, and that's what this article is about."

Another said that "I would not be adverse to a separate conversation to rework the page to describe the event that led to the notoriety." One user noted that he is notable for "the controversy about him being doxxed by Gawker, the offensive subreddits he created (especially "jailbait", which got media attention even before he was doxxed), etc - and once he did a voluntary in-depth interview with CNN." All these things are relevant to this article and have been included.

Two others recommended a possible merge, though one specified a merge to the main Gawker and Reddit articles and the other did not specify where.

The main argument I saw against merging is that this article will focus more on the negative aspects of Michael Brutsch. If anything it has less emphasis on Brutsch outside of the circumstances of his outing. Narrowing down the discussion of the controversy surrounding controversial subreddits to the discussion of just one person doesn't make much sense, when you consider that dozens of moderators and tens of thousands of users contributed to the maintenance and content of these communities, and Brutsch hasn't been active in their maintenance for at least six months. Breadblade (talk) 20:21, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

This is just a typical WP:POVFORK and BLP coatrack as most of it is just negative information about Brutsch taken from the original article, cleansed of most of the material that would put him in a more favorable light.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 21:59, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

• Many in the AfD argued for the notability of these controversial communities, and suggested a merge to an article about these communities, or the surrounding controversy. This is following through with that suggestion. Material that was removed in the move was generally non-notable, such as mundane information regarding Brutsch's career history and details about how he found the website. If bias is an issue, WP:COATRACK states that it is inappropriate to "even out the percentage of bias" by adding fluff, such as minute details of a subject's life. I don't see where this article is giving him an editorialized or unfair treatment, but if you see poorly-sourced contentious information about anyone on here or anywhere else it's your right to remove it. Breadblade (talk) 22:24, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

• WP:BLP does not apply solely to unsourced or poorly-sourced contentious information. It is a policy that demands an overall stricter interpretation of our other content policies. You actually removed plenty more than what you mention and generally all of it being material that puts him in a less negative light.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 22:47, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

• See WP:WINAC, this person's claim to notability comes directly from involvement in controversial subreddits. I would contend that most of the removed content was fluff, redundant or not particularly notable, the source article is quite long considering the subject matter. If you think there are glaring omissions, they can of course be added back in. Breadblade (talk) 23:07, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

• You didn't remove anything that wouldn't be completely suitable in a bio. What you have done is created an article that is basically a pseduo-biography and focuses solely on the negative aspects of the living subject. It is ostensibly about controversial subreddits, but is basically all about him.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 23:37, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

After perusing Controversial Reddit communities, I would not be opposed to a merger with that page. That may actually be a good compromise. HillbillyGoat (talk) 04:34, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Creating an article that is ostensibly about something else but is really about Brutsch is just abusing BLP1E, which is not even a valid objection in this case, in order to violate BLP by excising any humanizing or positive material about the actual subject. Brutsch is notable in his own right and to diminish him to "jailbait guy" is far worse than having an article about him where we can at least treat him like a human being and not some object in a controversy.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 17:30, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

• In the event that we can't reach a consensus about what to do, then the status quo should obtain: Brutsch has an article under his own name. Ideally I'd prefer a consensus that saves face all round---but if the Devil's Advocate remains adamantly opposed to any kind of merger, then I would support the the Devil's Advocate's position and endorse the continued existence of the Brutsch article with its current content. For the reasons I stated during the AfD, I think that Brutsch fully deserves his Wikipedia article and I'm not minded to protect him by removing or merging it unless there's a genuine consensus in favour of that.—S Marshall T/C 19:12, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Link from Reddit

I've added a link to this article from Reddit. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:41, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Linked by Reddit

There was a recent influx of new/IP editors to the "Misogyny" section of this page following a post on reddit's /r/mensrights subforum. This page may attract similar bursts of activity over short periods of time if users from mentioned communities feel the need to weigh in on their portrayal on Wikipedia. Although we shouldn't WP:BITE the newcomers, they should be aware of their own biases, avoid WP:OR and ensure that their additions are properly cited. As such I'm not surprised that a lot of these recent changes were reverted, but it's possible that these influxes might lead to good edits in the future. Breadblade (talk) 19:21, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

We should also be wary not to over-diagnose OR, as often happens when people are simply reflecting what is written in the references and people misinterpret that as personal opinion. Ranze (talk) 19:45, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

It does beg the question - why do you always show up when wiki pages are linked to that sub? Countered (talk) 22:20, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

"Men's Rights Subforum" subsection

This section needs some changes to remain on topic and neutral. It received a flurry of edits after being posted on the forum it is critical of. Many of these edits misunderstand critical distinctions.

The websites are not called "Misogyny: The Sites" but rather the Southern Poverty Law Center report has that title.

This page and subsection should detail controversy. General information about the unrelated beliefs of the subforum, like what it thinks about child custody, is off topic unless there was a controversy about those beliefs. Additionally, the child custody mention was followed by two references that had no mention of the topic, and links to another that does not mention the subreddit.

It is incorrect to suggest the SPLC retracted its statements about the group. Rather, they clarified that they were not designating it a 'hate group', but did not retract any part of their earlier statements. Perhaps more context about this distinction is warranted, but that does not make the misogyny "previously" alleged, nor does it refute the descriptions in this subsection. This clarification was only to distinguish their misogyny watch list report from their official "hate group" list, the latter of which does not include the subreddit.

Finally, it is absurd and original to pretend that any place where there are examples of misogyny must also be a hate group.

Emarkcd (talk) 21:04, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Your edit was quite right. The material you removed was utterly ridiculous, off-topic, intended to promote the subreddit, and also included prohibited original analysis of reliable sources (clue phrases "without referencing why," "no citation," "there is a contradiction" etc.) Unrelatedly, but also in this section, I'm not sure Manboobz is considered a reliable source and we should perhaps wait until the information gets picked up elsewhere. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 23:41, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

The fact that you acknowledge in your post about your edits that this page "Is critical of" /r/mensrights is in fact confirmation of a non-neutral POV in the section regarding this subreddit (which was, previously, titled "misogyny", even though the subsection does not describe incidents of misogyny, but rather describes one specific sub-forum of Reddit.

The purpose of this page is, ostensibly at least, to describe controversies on Reddit. Not to make the argument that a certain subreddit is or is not misogynistic by nature. So I have cleaned up the language to make it more factually descriptive of the events/incidents being described, using more non-POV language.

While the section describing a doxing incident might have a place, the only source given is neither authoritative nor reliable, and so for the time being I've removed that section until a more factual and lexicographically inoffensive entry on the subject can replace it. Ironlion45 (talk) 05:31, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

To clarify, it is the SPLC analysis (and not this page, which should merely report the controversy around their analysis) that I mean "is critical of" the forum.

Another reason the doxxing event should be removed: that is a controversy for the MensRights subreddit, but was apparently not much of a site-wide controversy, which makes it off topic topic of this page. A list of MensRights controversies would warrant its own page because (like manboobz) that is a more specific topic. Emarkcd (talk) 06:25, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Agreed on that doxxing incident, then. Ironlion45 (talk) 07:39, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

The name of the page is "controversial Reddit communities", not "site wide controversy based on reddit communities". By your very definition - this page exists to fill the role of documenting any controversy around specific communities on reddit. The information that has been provided is sourced by multiple sources. I'm fine with the manboobz sources being removed - but I added them because the SPLC sources specifically referenced them. I don't think anyone has an issue with the daily dot being used so far, and they are also used. Countered (talk) 15:40, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't suppose we could include rebuttals from any of the other web sites on this page about reddit? I'm sure referencing reddit posts itself would not fly, though perhaps we could make an exception if any posts by kloo2yoo were made, since he's actually referenced in the article. The 12th (and last) site on the list published a April 24 2012 rebuttal entitled "SPLC linked to anti men’s rights subreddit" by Robert O'Hara in response to the list, linking the SPLC to efforts made by another subreddit called "ShitRedditSays". Normally we would not consider AVFM's opinion's on the SPLC's treatment of Reddit relevant, save for that they were mutually targetted alongside the subreddit in the same report, making them just as notable as Manboobz. I can't actually LINK to the report, of course, due to the censorship-based blacklisting Wikipedia does. Ranze (talk) 05:33, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure why we would want to cite anyone's reddit activity on Wikipedia. Even if he weren't labeled as a conspiracy theorist by the SPLC, his online postings are self-published primary sources, which aren't good for much. See WP:PRIMARY. Breadblade (talk) 14:58, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Rosc regarding some accusations about some content...

The material you removed was utterly ridiculous, off-topic, intended to promote the subreddit

Which material are you saying was intended to promote it? Specifying which subreddit the SPLC was talking about is not off-topic. Seeing as how the report specified that one of the admins "kloo2yoo" had feminist conspiracy theories, and he is the founder of /r/MensRights, that is clearly the one they are talking about. If we are going to talk about controversial communities in this articles, we should defintiely specify which one it is. Otherwise what should we do, give generalized descriptions that could refer to anything? How do we very that controversial communities even exist without knowing their names?

included prohibited original analysis of reliable sources (clue phrases "without referencing why," "no citation," "there is a contradiction" etc.)

Sometimes I think this whole 'original analysis' concern thing deviates from its core purpose, which is unfounded claims. The report itself is original analysis and not a scholarly work. Are the SPLC scholars now? The report didn't even list an author, an intern could've written it. All we know is that their report produced controversy. We should definitely not present their claims as fact, so wording it neutrally and making a note of the lack of citation (they do not actually link kloo2yoo's 'conspiracy theory' posts) doesn't seem like it's violating the intent of the no OR rule. Ranze (talk) 05:33, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

'Unrelatedly, but also in this section, I'm not sure Manboobz is considered a reliable source

Agree with you completely about Manboobz not being a reliable source but since the report says:

Another resource is the Man Boobz website (manboobz.com), a humorous pro-feminist blog (its tagline is “Misogyny: I Mock It”) that keeps a close eye on these and many other woman-hating sites.

What I take from that is even though Wikipedia itself should not view Manboobz as reliable, it is noteworthy that whoever wrote this SPLC report claims that it is a resource, as it at least establishes (like the dozen "misogyny sites") a level of notability and infamy by their referencing via the SPLC. Ranze (talk) 05:33, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

What this comment tells me is that you either don't understand core WP policies like reliable sourcing and no original research or you don't care. Either should result in your holding off editing for at least a while. Please consult those policies so that you understand. (One hint to start you off: the nature of the original research policy is that users can't do research. To suggest that it means no research at all is allowed ever is ludicrous.) –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 06:13, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm not clear on what this specific line of conversation has to do with OR concerns, it is about sourcing. My point was that if "SPLC mentions ManBoobz" is reason to cite Manboobz, then "SPLC mentions sites 1-12" would be similar reasoning to cite those of them which also commented on the M:TS report and the reddit targetting in particular, and at least one (AVFM) did so. Ranze (talk) 06:53, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Emark I'm not sure what you mean about misunderstanding. When I added the "Misogyny: The Sites" title, it was referring to a title of the section of the report, not some kind of collective name adopted by those sites. It is a name collectively used to refer to those sites though, since that is what the report was about. The information you removed WAS detailing the controversy, it was just doing so more thoroughly and in an accurate way that removed misunderstanding that the previous version promoted. As for the 'child custody' info, I restored that info (I believe an IP added it) because it wasn't deleted with an adequate edit summary explaining why. If a little bad info gets deleted alongside a lot of good info (which is the case) with a mocking summary, the whole thing tends to get restored. As for whether or not we need it, it does sorta tie into the whole "the place is multifaceted" observation of Potok.

It is incorrect to suggest the SPLC retracted its statements about the group. Rather, they clarified that they were not designating it a 'hate group', but did not retract any part of their earlier statements.

They redacted part of it, the critical part, in that they are claiming they did not call it a hate group. This conflicts with their earlier summary which, though it did not use the exact phrase "hate group", expressed exactly that. If you call a group's site woman-hating, you are calling that group a hate group, that is inescapable. The confusing detail (to some) about this redaction is they are not making it clear that it is a redaction. Potok is clearly avoiding the issue and pretending this was never insinuated, when it was actually directly declared.

This clarification was only to distinguish their misogyny watch list report from their official "hate group" list

Feel free to point out that it did not make their "official" list, but that doesn't mean they didn't list it as a hate site. If you call a group a hate group and then don't list it as one of your "official" hate groups, you have still called it a hate group.

it is absurd and original to pretend that any place where there are examples of misogyny must also be a hate group.

You can tell that to the SPLC then, because that is specifically where the idea originates, and what spawned the controversy. Misogyny means woman-hating, so if you call something a misogyny site, you're calling it a woman-hating-site, and thus a woman-hating-group. Other phrasing in the report:

1. The so-called “manosphere” is peopled with hundreds of websites .. dedicated to savaging .. women .. in general
2. they are almost all thick with misogynistic attacks that can be astounding for the guttural hatred they express
3. these .. woman-hating sites

The third comment is strikeable via the "almost all" phrasing which could be said to referring perhaps to the other 11 sites and not the reddit community. But the other 3 are worded to specify that the community is dedicated to savaging women in general, calling them woman-hating sites thick with gutteral hateful misogny. No conclusions were leapt to at all in how they were reacted to or summarized, the language is clear, the reddit community was being called a hate group, in spite of what Potok came back with. Ranze (talk) 05:33, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Uh, they didn't list it as a hate group. They have a list of hate groups and the site was not on it. No one cares about your etymological observations or your original analysis of the source. Give it a rest. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 06:13, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

They publish multiple lists of hate groups, yes, and I haven't seen it on any of those other reports. But "Misogyny: The Sites" is itself a list of alleged hate groups. It's not their big "end of year" professional-looking one, no, but the wording makes it very clear that it is describing groups listed as hateful. This is not an etymological observation, it really goes beyond the whole "misogyny = hate" thing, because as the above quotes show, they literally say it they are "woman-hating sites". It's not an original analysis, I'm showing directly that the word hate is applied to those 12 web sites. It is arguable that not all 12 of the sites are "groups" (RooshV sounds like 1 guy's blog) but a subreddit certainly is a group of people as well as a site, and it was called "dedicated" to savaging, expressing of "gutteral hatred" and "woman-hating". Though Potok claims that he didn't see these as the 'core purpose', listing them in a group described this way says otherwise. That is why it is a proven redact and not a "clarification". If the truth is going to be kept out of the article about his back-pedaling, the wording should at least be neutral and not suggestive of pure fabrication (that there is no contradition between the report and Potok's statement) because "hate" for "hate", there is a blatent contradiction. Ranze (talk) 06:23, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• Warning. I am considering any edits to this page or the article itself involving men's rights to be subject to these probationary sanctions.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:42, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

By 'this page' I assume this means the section of the page about the MensRights subreddit and not the page in general (or is /r/niggers also on probation?). I'm kinda wondering how this 1RR stuff applies, there's already been a sequence with a 9-hour gap between first and second. I think things might go more smoothly if there was more co-operation and discussion about details pertaining to content (especially when making accusations like OR) to help clarify to editors why reversions are being repeatedly made. To those who are simply trying to add content from the original references used for this section that was initially omitted, it's frustrating to have to guess at what might be interpreted that way by blanket reverts which remove clearly non-OR things like quoting and section headings. Ranze (talk) 21:12, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

I have blocked Ranze for violating WP:1RR (actually, they did three reverts). Next time someone wants clarification, ask before reverting. However, for everyone's edification, the probation sanctions apply to the MRM section of the article (and any subsections) and this talk page when discussing the MRM.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:31, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

The "third revert" I am being told was this edit, where I added entirely new content I had never added before and which had never been removed, thus I was not undoing any editor's work in making it... Ranze (talk) 03:26, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree that the last edit made by Ranze was not a revert and have struck that part of comment above.--Bbb23 (talk) 09:37, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Suicide Lawsuit Hoax

Someone added a description of this to the "Men's Rights Subforum" subsection. Since this incident has no clear connection to that topic, I'm going to assume this was done in error, and was intended to be a part of another subheading or a new subheading entirely. For now, I've removed that information, until someone with the ambition to do so (i.e. whoever added that bit in the first place) gets around to properly adding it wherever it should go. Ironlion45 (talk) 07:53, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

"Since this incident has no clear connection to that topic" according to who? Did you even bother to read the sources? Countered (talk) 15:11, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't feel strongly either way right now about removing or keeping it, but I think that this is somewhat less notable than the other two in the section. It was a hoax that took place on the forum, but I'm not sure if it had much of a broad impact based on the limited source material available on the topic. Breadblade (talk) 17:36, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

That's not all. Aside from that the only notable correlation between the hoaxer and the Men's Rights Subforum is that 'she' called herself a "mensrights sister" once (her topics were not from the subreddit at all), it's also hardly controversial at all (the sources all come from the same one site, and the articles' own ever-handy social media indicator prove they're not hot stuff), and the important line "implicating 2 regular users who gave out the information, and a moderator by the username "quanan"" isn't even in the sources! Either the paragraph is just horribly written and it actually is a major and well-reported issue, or it's simply not notable enough to begin with. Either way, I'm removing what we have now. 86.40.226.93 (talk) 19:30, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

You're right, that's my mistake about the moderator. I'm not sure where I read that now. As such, I've removed that part. Countered (talk) 19:43, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

The sources are one thing, but the article does not really explain the connection. It seems a stretch to stick it with the men's rights forum topic. I am not familiar with the incident and after reading the section on it, I am still not informed about it as well. Ironlion45 (talk) 19:58, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, not my best writing. I'll see if I can make it a bit better. Countered (talk) 20:12, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

I think I agree with this viewpoint. Although the hoax has some connection with the forum since it happened there, I'm not sure what that event really says about the community as a whole besides that they took troll bait. Breadblade (talk) 20:25, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Rosc removed it here with the requested explanation for why it was removed, which I can see this section relates to. I admit I was a bit confused reading that bit and trying to figure out how it related to the Men's Rights section. Countered's probably right about reading the sources, I haven't read the sources related to the suicide yet, but I guess the point remains that if this is linked to the Men's Rights subsection, the actual expression of those sources should explain why it is there. Perhaps if it does get added back it could be made a subsection much like Creepshots has the "Ethics of outing" subsection? We could potentially do this for the SPLC issues as well. So far in the MR section the SPLC / suicide / doxxing feminist bloggers issues seem 3 pretty distinct ones which are minimally related to one another. Ranze (talk) 06:31, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I was thinking that it probably needed its own section, perhaps one about highly effective incidents of trolling or hoaxing that occur on Reddit, and produce sufficient controversy that they warrant mention on this page. The caveat here, however, is if we start an inclusive list of high-profile scams/"trolling"/hoaxes that have occurred on Reddit, this page would become ...significantly longer. Ironlion45 (talk) 05:01, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

It could be minimized by only allowing it for sections which already exist due to being otherwise noteworthy for other events and coverage. That way new sections would not be added solely for scams, but already-controversial communities' newsworthy scams could be discussed. Ranze (talk) 20:09, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Headers

I've standardized the headers that have to do with specific subreddits by naming them after the subreddits in question, clearing up a mess of dissimilar titles. As I noted in my edit summary, this does place a racist slur in the table of contents and in a header. Other standardization options might be naming the issue in each one rather than naming the subreddit, eg. "child pornography," "racism," "misogyny" (not sure how we would concisely describe some of the others but it's a start). –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 06:09, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

There's a wide gap between labelling /r/niggers as "racism" and labelling /r/MensRights as "misogyny". The former is clearly a widely-acknowledged racial slur (of a banned subreddit) while the latter is an unbanned subreddit chastized by (so far as we have listed here) a single web site. I personally would rather stick with your naming scheme of using the actual names. Topic headings could be useful later on if we are grouping discussions of multiple subreddits, but I think if issues are centered around a single named community we might as well use that title. Ranze (talk) 06:26, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

OR specifications

With a lot of continual reverting going on about "original research" I would like to request that anyone who is going to do this to multi-faceted edits please provide more detail about what is being declared OR, and why. It would also be helpful that if there are things done in an edit which you do not consider OR, to leave that stuff be and only remove or alter the material which is object to.

Furthermore, we do have Template:OR or Template:Fact which could be used to tag particular words or sentences, which would not only be a more specific response, but would allow contributors to alter the content or to supply the reference you desire. Removing statements (especially when done amidst the removal of an amount of other content, which confuses the issue and cause) doesn't create that opportunity.

Lacking specific information, I looked at my edits and made this change which I hope is satisfactory. If I am wrong and overlooking some other aspect being called OR, I would like to request discussion of what specifically that is, such as quoting the statement, or tagging it with a template, so that we can be co-operatively constructive and not simply mass-revert edits. This is a blatent baby/bathwater issue, and if's something other than the "based on" part, I would like an explanation for why it's being considered OR which deviates from the evidence within the initial report. Ranze (talk) 21:18, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

The removal of the original research about why people thought the subreddit was a hate group is a step forward, but you're still carrying on this crusade to pretend that Potok might somehow have been unaware that it was indeed secretly named a hate group. I've explained all these issues to you repeatedly, so quit the hand-wringing about how someone could have just tagged the material which violated policy. You already knew that you should not have added it. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 23:04, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

The supplement the replies I made on my talk page about this:

The removal of the original research about why people thought the subreddit was a hate group is a step forward

One that would have been made easier had you simply removed that content alone and specified why, instead of reverting a bunch of other content along with it and calling the entire thing OR, which was false.

you're still carrying on this crusade to pretend that Potok might somehow have been unaware that it was indeed secretly named a hate group

No, I'm not. People can make up their own minds about that. I just want our language to be neutral here. Your use of "clarify" is not neutral. It's your own point of view that he was engaged in clarification, and not a matter of fact supported by the references. You seem to be engaged in some strange speculation about some message you think I'm trying to send, and it's just not true. The introduction of "claim" or other verbs is not "original research", it is neutralization of language, and NPOV. How is using neutral language a crusade? If it is, I think it's one that falls within Wikipedia policies. Analyzing statements and calling them 'clarification' (or oppositely, 'obfuscation') is not something we should be doing here. We should be neither affirming nor denying statements. Ranze (talk) 03:19, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Actually, "claim" is not at all considered neutral (WP:CLAIM). –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 03:57, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Apparently claim means something different to me than it does to most people do. To me it means something neutral. I guess it's similar to how I use "use" neutrally but it means something suggestive to others. I'll concede that point then, I'm not particularly attached to it and was merely using it because of the catchy C/C alliteration for discussing the issue. Suggestions for neutral language there include said, stated which would fit well here. Clarify was not among those I read which were "almost always neutral and accurate". Clarify is a loaded term, much like "explained, exposed, found, pointed out, or revealed" just as "noted, observed" are also loaded. Clarify is a much more loaded term IMO than claim. Claim may have socialized implications, but clarify has inherent implications. Can we settle on said/stated then? Ranze (talk) 01:45, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Quote dichotomy

Currently there is something amiss with how we are presenting quotes about the SPLC debackle. Aug 22 I added direct quotes from the original report. I believe I properly abided by WP:Quote because they were set off by quotation marks as well as the additional formatting element of italics. What was added:

It collectively described the twelve "Misogyny" (hatred or dislike of women or girls) groups listed as "woman-hating sites" which were "dedicated to savaging feminists in particular and women, very typically American women, in general" and that almost all were "thick with misogynistic attacks that can be astounding for the guttural hatred they express".

Is there anything inaccurate about these quotes or how I presented them? Any injections to my restoring them to the section? I want to know if someone is disputing the veracity.

I did end up paraphrasing these a bit later on, in something which I removed in agreement with Rosc's unspecified OR objections:

(based on the it being described as "woman-hating", expressing "guttural hatred" and "dedicated to savaging feminists and women")

The reason I think that was wrong isn't so much due to the shortening, but more-so due to the 'based on'. Although it's a simple assumption that the hatred-based accusations in the original report are what led to people saying it was labeling hate-sites, I suppose we can never truly know what led to rumors. Maybe it came out of thin air, maybe it was people trying to lie.

Regardless of what founded the rumors though, these are very critical quotes from the report to include. Right now, all we have in the section is saying:

"the subreddit propagates conspiracy theories about feminism and demonstrates anger towards programs that help women"

This statement is first, misrepresenting one point. The report never claimed the 'subreddit' "propagated" conspiracies, rather it claimed it "trafficked" in them, which is different. Propagating something is creating and nurturing it, while trafficking something is merely transporting it. It went on to clarify that Kloo2yoo wrote about a conspiracy, so (since he's a founder and moderator) the subreddit merely 'trafficked' his idea by him communicating that idea. To upgrade 'traffick' into 'propogate' is not a neutral representation of the SPLC's claims.

This statement is also only emphasizing a comparatively minor point. The statement about programs (actually "any" programs is what the report said) is almost inconsequential. Focusing on that is implying that THIS is the reason people were accusing the SPLC of being hateful.

A much more critical thing to describe, rather than the accusation of hating woman-focused programs, is the above quotes, where it calls all the sites (including the subreddit) woman-hating, misogynistic (same thing), and expressing hatred. Why are we omitting these details and presenting a lesser accusation? It is a biased way to represent the report, painting it as less inflammatory than it really is by focusing on lesser elements. By not representing their "these .. woman-hating sites" statement, we are omitting something with a clear connection to the rumors of hate-site classification.

We quote Potok's "we did not list it as a hate group" as gospel and not the actual report itself. The report which caused the controversy is more important to present than the RESPONSE to the controversy. Potok's rebuttal and the almost inconsequential May "provoked a tremendous response" statement from the SPLC are second-tier observations. We're supposed to be writing about the controversy itself primarily here. I don't suggest omitting Potok's March rebuttal or the SPLC's May overview, but if we're going to be listing them, if we're going to be listing minor 'they're angry about programs that benefit women' type stuff, we should also be listing how the introduction of the report alleged the site was a "woman-hating" one. Ranze (talk) 02:13, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

I simply included the material that related specifically to the subreddit. I have no problem including some of the material from the opening of the article as long as it is clear that the quotes do not refer specifically to the subreddit. Re "propagate," your idiolect evidently uses it differently than mine, in which it means "spread." Let's get the input of other users. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 02:29, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Additionally, I don't see anything wrong with "said" or "stated," but there's also no problem with "clarify" since the statement is verifiably true. I'm tired of your conspiracy theory about the article secretly being a hate group list. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 04:33, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

That's a good point. It might be fair to put in a blurb that gives the SPLC's position on the sites listed in general, since that might better clarify what it means to be on that list. Breadblade (talk) 15:34, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

"clarify" is not verifiably true, so I will replace it with 'said' which we have agreed upon is neutral. This is not a 'conspiracy theory'. There is no secret here. The language of the report makes it clear it is talking about hatred, to say 'clarify' is lying. It's concession enough that I'm not pointing this out. I will include a reference from the Huffington Post showing how media sources concluded that it was hate-categorizing. Ranze (talk) 22:28, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

The first quotes seemed problematic to me because they pull rhetorical language from the original article, which (to my understanding) can be a backdoor method of introducing a non-neutral treatment of the subject. It also seemed unnecessary to include a definition of misogyny. I don't agree that "propagate" and "traffic" have entirely different meanings, but it wouldn't bother me too much if we changed "propagates" to "traffics in" in the article. About half of the short "Reddit: Mens Rights" section from the article talks abut the conspiracy theories. so I'm not convinced that we are giving it undue weight by mentioning it in passing. I don't have any strong attachment to the Potok quote, in fact I removed it in the past for being over-long when it was included in its entirety. However, based on the widely varying interpretations people seem to have of this statement, it might not be a bad idea to have it there. Breadblade (talk) 15:28, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

How is the language rhetorical? I'm glad we concur about there being no harm in using the original "traffic" terminology. I am not opposed to the mention of conspiracy theories, my problem is that we can be more specific (the report names a person they accuse of making the theorizes, the reddit co-founder). If we're going to present Potok's quote, we should present the original language he is making denials about, so I'm adding it back. Ranze (talk) 22:28, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

I kept quotes like "thick with misogynistic attacks that can be astounding for the guttural hatred they express" intact in my previous edit in an attempt to compromise, but they are not written in the neutral, dispassionate tone preferred for encyclopedias. It's also not necessary (or appropriate, probably) to spell out conspiracy theories in detail in a Wikipedia article (see WP:Fringe). The user mentioned in the article is not a reddit co-founder, the addition of the material about Manboobz seems irrelevant and the introductory segment needs work, as it's bare bones and doesn't have any reliable secondary sources. Also be sure not to continue to violate this article's WP:1RR probation, since it appears that you have been blocked for violating them in the past. Breadblade (talk) 00:42, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Spacedicks section

Not particularly attached to it, but I found the removal slightly... accelerated. Posting contents here for review:

The subreddit /r/Spacedicks features images of physical deformities, unusual pornography, and mutilated or dead bodies. Its images are often used to troll unsuspecting people. In its comment section, users write in capital letters and frequently use variations of the word "faggot". Writing in Vice, Drew Millard describes the subreddit as "an objectively disgusting space".(ref)Drew Millard (August 2012). "REDDIT'S SPACEDICKS SECTION IS THE INTERNET'S ACTUAL ASSHOLE". Vice. Retrieved August 28, 2013.(/ref)

It did have a source (Vice magazine) so if the sourcing was sparse, if notability seemed dubious, rather than deleting it, should we not have tagged it appropriately asking for further sourcing? Ranze (talk) 20:07, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Several communities on reddit contain objectionable content due to the nature of the platform, so that by itself probably isn't particularly notable. The one source didn't seem to detail any controversies involving that place either. Breadblade (talk) 04:13, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Frivolous

This is a rather frivolous article. I propose we delete it. Wikipedia is not Encyclopedia Dramatica. The stuff about Anderson Cooper and /r/jailbait can just go on the main article for reddit.com 99.90.64.88 (talk) 02:38, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't agree since much of this material is well sourced, seems to meet notability guidelines and/or has already passed previous deletion discussions, but you could peruse WP:DEL-REASON if you want to make an argument for deleting the entire article on policy grounds. However if you think there are subsections of this article that should be removed or pared down I might agree, this article should avoid becoming a catch-all for any and all controversies involving reddit. Breadblade (talk) 03:29, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

I totally agree, since most of the materially is actually terribly sourced and as far as I can see does not meet notability guidelines.

Gawker, "manboobs," possibly other bad sources

How exactly is an article about Gawker's unethical reporting on a website sourced to Gawker? Does Gawker qualify as a valid news source at all? A metal shard (talk) 09:25, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Out of the 60 citations in this article, Gawker comprises three of them, and there cases are backed up by at least one additional source. Breadblade (talk) 14:04, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Influx of new/IP editors

This page has been linked to on the subreddit /r/mensrights: http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/20hlzk/wikipedia_controversial_reddit_communities/

This is likely the cause of the numerous edits and additions to this page recently. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.44.121.177 (talk) 02:54, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

On the subject of the SPLC

SPLC Never designated /r/mensrights as a hate group, they have even stated this themselves.

Frankly, this repeated dogmatic reversion after amending the wiki to be more factual is disturbing: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Controversial_Reddit_communities&diff=599863607&oldid=599847232

I'm going to put back the edits I made previously, and if anyone thinks they are out of order please bring it up here before reverting yet again. There is no reason to not clarify that the SPLC did not designate the mens rights movement as a hate group. 92.237.240.175 (talk) 14:38, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

I don't think the existing text was unclear; we didn't state that SPLC called them a hate group and we also stated already that they were not. I'd be fine with removing the "Outlets such as HuffPo" sentence, but these additions is protesting too much. By the way, you are way over the bright-line for edit warring; I haven't bothered to report these people because I've been hoping the page will be protected, but if you keep on your agenda-motivated edit warring and no one shows up to protect the page, you bet I will.

The part I'm more concerned with is the cherry-picked quote from the SPLC's other article. Looking at how we discuss it, you'd think it was all about the SPLC making sure no one thought the sites were that bad, right? But that's completely wrong; the article reaffirms the misogyny of the sites! –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 14:46, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

I personally am happy with the suggestion to simply remove the HuffPo sentence. That was the main cause of my grievance. Good compromise. For the record, the SPLC only points out incidents of what they interpret as misogyny from some individuals in the group. This is an extremely unfair leap of logic to say that the group is misogynist when all that has been reported is that some members might have said some things that to someone somewhere sounded misogynistic. The fact remains that SPLC never called it a hate group. I'll remove the line about HuffPo's interpretation. 92.237.240.175 (talk) 14:51, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

I don't think that the previous version of this article (the one that was around before /r/mensrights flooded the page with IP editors) was being unfair in how it laid out the facts. From my understanding, the SPLC report was pretty critical of /r/mensrights, and news outlets latched onto the story thinking mensrights had been labeled a hate group. Later the Daily Dot asked them about it, and they said it fell short of inclusion as a hate group. This is not an endorsement from the SPLC, or a retraction of their earlier criticism of the site. Nowhere did the article say "The SPLC designated /r/mensrights as a hate group," I'm seeing a big knee-jerk reaction from members of the subreddit trying to defend the place's reputation on wikipedia. That said, I'm going to see if I can put in a compromise edit that will (neutrally) note that HuffPo was later proven wrong without pretending this controversy never happened. Breadblade (talk) 15:15, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

This is the first thing I attempted to do. I thought it was succint and factual but it was still reverted within minutes. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Controversial_Reddit_communities&diff=599758765&oldid=599757715 92.237.240.175 (talk) 15:18, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

The Huffington Post was not actually proven wrong, though. The SPLC saying they never labelled a site a hate group doesn't mean they actually didn't. To conclude that HuffPo was wrong is OR. If another source voices an objection to HuffPo and that source is notable, we can cite their counter-analysis, of course. Ranze (talk) 07:34, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

I already elaborated on why I reverted that edit...which seems to have been ignored. However, I reverted it due to its non-neutral language according to WP:NPOV. If you want to blame me for reverting the edit, you'd be right in doing so, as it indeed was me. "This flawed interpretation" signifies that the sentence preceding it is totally wrong, which is a contradiction and has no place for an encylopedia. However, seeing as someone with an IP address edited the full quote in which tends to make the next few sentences redundant, do you consider that reasonable in terms of your original complaint? Ging287 (talk) 15:56, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

There was no contradiction - the first sentence described an interpretation made and the next clarified that the previous interpretation was incorrect. In terms of the wiki, there was no contradiction. Both the fact that the Huffington Post interpreted it in that way and the fact that their interpretation was incorrect are both valid and factual statements. The next few sentences were not redundant - they went into further detail on the issue, but the previous sentence left as it was gave the impression that HuffPo's interpretation was correct. Also I did not realise that having an IP rendered an edit invalid - a special kind of ad hominem perhaps? 92.237.240.175 (talk) 16:02, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Wrong 92.327, your claim that HuffPo's interpretation was incorrect is NOT "factual", it's OR, and not appropriate here. HuffPo and similar 'hate group' conclusions is clearly what sparked SPLC's denial of the accusations without actually addressing their choice of language in the report. Ranze (talk) 07:36, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

I did not mean to imply or indicate that the specific IP user's edits are not constructive. But as to refer to the user that made the edit, and not have to snipe their IP address and type it out here. (Plus I'm on a mobile device atm.) Nonetheless, I think you're misunderstanding me. The text that you added "This flawed interpretation turned out to be incorrect" negates the preceding sentence. That was my overall complaint. The quote I'm referring to is, "We wrote about the subreddit Mens Rights, but we did not list it as a hate group" and expressed doubt that the SPLC would ever designate the community as a hate group, noting that "it's a diverse group, which certainly does include some misogynists—but I don't think that's [its basic] purpose." My question was intending to ask you whether you consider that specific quote which was an addendum as a means of sating your original complaint? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ging287 (talk • contribs) 16:15, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Well look, I don't really feel like spending hours on this, but you should realise that on a page detailing controversy there may be contradictions in interpretation and simply stating both doesn't render either pointless. If anything it is more important to include flawed interpretation in the media and also to include the real intent behind it. 92.237.240.175 (talk) 13:49, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

I cannot express enough how much I disagree with that statement. Wikipedia is not "the media". Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and encyclopedias are not tabloids, which is how you are treating it. And also, you speak of "there may be contradications in interpretations", but that's a moot point if those contradicting interpretations are not all represented. There is no "contradicting interpretation" if this interpretation isn't displayed to the public.Koen23468 (talk) 17:13, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

I was referring to the Huffington post when I said "media". There was no contradiction in terms of the wiki page, nor was it a moot point. Drawing attention to a contradiction away from the wiki itself is still valuable to the wiki. And by the way, having noted your other discussion here, please refrain from using me as a tool to show that you are neutral. 92.237.240.175 (talk) 00:56, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

92.237, unless you can supply some sort of proof that the SPLC did not describe these communities as hate groups, I don't see why we should include such a claim here. Good luck with proving a negative here. We already acknowledge that the SPLC deny calling it a hate group. Denial is not evidence that something wasn't done though. If anything, it serves as evidence that whatever was said, some parties reading the report somehow got the impression that 'hate group' was being communicated by the report. Or, if someone did not get that impression and was merely making up the accusation to start an argument, they at least found the report to be grey enough that they could make a convincing attempt with the idea.

While it is true that the exact phrase "hate group" did not appear in the report, it appeared in a "Hate and Extremism" report, and says "these... women-hating sites". In this case a "site" is effectively as group (composed of the people who contribute to and possibly read the site) so it's effectively saying a "women-hating group". You don't have to use the actual phrase "hate group" to call someone a hate group any more than I need to say "liar!" to call someone a liar (I could call them a fibber, dishonest, etc). We live in a word of synonyms or, in this case, conjugated verbs.

As it is, the article doesn't really go far enough in pointing out that Potok was clearly lying in the denial, as the report explicitly calls all the sites on the list "women-hating" and therefore hate groups. It's currently "neutral" (ie standoffish) enough that it states the language used in the report, the denial, and lets people make up their own minds. Ranze (talk) 07:27, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Detail on the doxxing section of the r/mensrights subsection

I had previously edited the section on the doxxing event. The way was written then (and is again now, due to the revert) made it seem as if the gathering and making public of this person's private information was the doing of member of the subreddit only, which is not the case.

For those not aware, Reddit is a site where you link to existing webpages to gather attention for them. Reddit does not have publications, it links to existing publications. As is the case with this post. Claiming members of this subreddit "published" this information is not correct. The wording should be changed to reflect the fact that this was information they found elsewhere. It cannot be proven that members of the subreddit gathered and published this information and therefor, phrasing it in such a way that one could be lead to believe that they did, is a form of choosing sides. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and encyclopedias do not take sides.

If you read the source articles, the threat from the admin was due to the fact that the moderators from the subreddit did not remove the link. Not because they believed members of the subreddit gathered it. Reddit has a policy against posting personal information and the moderators were berated for leaving the link up.

This is also the case for the line describing that the wrong woman had been identified. Saying "They" had been harassing her, while previously only speaking of "members of the subreddit", makes it sound, once again, like only those people were responsible, which cannot be proven.

I suggest changing these lines, in order to make the description less biased:

"In April 2013, the subreddit was threatened with a shutdown by the Reddit admins when members of the subreddit released information"

To

"In April 2013, the subreddit was threatened with a shutdown by the Reddit admins when the subreddit did not remove a link to personal information"

And

"Later on it was discovered that they had identified the wrong woman"

To

"Later on it was discovered that the wrong woman had been identified" Koen23468 (talk) 17:14, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

The way this source described it, users were digging for and sharing that user's personal information within the subreddit's comment thread, and the subreddit nearly got banned because the moderators were instructing users on how to skirt the 'no-doxing' rule. It is possible that other websites were attempting to 'dox' this person at the same time, but this article is centered on reddit communities. Breadblade (talk) 19:33, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Breadblade took the words out of my mouth - I was just going by what the sources said and have no personal knowledge of the incident, but I would also have suggested the possibility that this information was posted in comments, where people can write things - and looking at the Reddit thread, this does appear to be the case. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:31, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Reading the sources and the reddit threads linked within, there is a single screenshot of a mod having removed a comment and one of the links leads to deleted content. So, it can be said there were people on the subreddit releasing the information, but it was removed by the mods. The shutdown threat came after mods were giving people hints on how to bypass those rules, as written in reference 43. So, the first line should actually be: "In April 2013, the subreddit was threatened with a shutdown by the Reddit admins when the subreddit moderators were giving people hints on how to by-pass the rules against doxxing.". The second line is still incorrect, as the identification linked was a copy-pasted several times and no clear source can be determined, especially after the mods removed comments containing it. Side note: reference 42 and 44 are exactly the same link. Shouldn't that be one reference to 42?Koen23468 (talk) 21:27, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

I've attempted to update the 'doxxing incident' segment to reflect that the admin threat was in response to the moderator's attempt to skirt the site's rules about personal information, in addition to the behavior the mods were responding to. Also, I got rid of the duplicate source. Breadblade (talk) 22:27, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Section Blanking after Article is linked by r/mensrights

Yesterday, a link to this article was posted on r/mensrights and later in the day the entire section on r/mensrights was section blanked without reasoning WP:BLANK

This article may need protecting again if the subreddit makes further attempts to vandalise this page --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 13:19, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Did you already request semi protection? Want me to be the one that does it? Ging287 (talk) 13:21, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

I was going to wait and see if they made any further attempts first, but a week or so of semi-protection would save me the headache of policing the article, thank you --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 13:25, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Generally, semi protected requests are usually denied unless there is persistent vandalism. After a few more vandalistic edits, I'm sure the reviewing admin would grant it. For one? I'd doubt it. I'm gonna hold off. But indeed, if you see a barrage of vandalistic edits, go ahead and request semi protection. Ging287 (talk) 13:30, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I thought as much. I have the page on my Watchlist anyway so I'll wait and see if further vandalism occurs and then report it myself --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 13:32, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

I dispute DIL's conclusion that simply because a link to the article was posted on the site that it necessarily means "the subreddit" is the one making the attempts. People subscribed to /r/MensRights (or who advocate for it) are not necessarily the only people who read the reddit. Those who oppose the reddit (such as some members of SRSsucks or /r/feminism) also monitor it and might vandalize the page to (1) combat it from becoming notable (2) make it seem like someone from the community did the vandalism to make them look bad. Ranze (talk) 07:40, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

While that is possible, I do think the tone of the post in question did encourage canvassing --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 22:06, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Are you serious?

Fairly certain after reading the source provided and looking into what is discussed that this was posted to prove a point. Closing as this as it is [[WP:NOTFORUM|off topic. If you want to discuss r/shitredditsays further please use an actual forum. --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 05:02, 17 May 2014 (UTC)}}

You spend nearly all of your time arguing over r/mensrights without spending any energy whatsoever on r/srs or the various subreddits that post pictures of gruesome deaths and dead children? As if extremist claims over supposed misogyny are somehow so important that anything else simply isn't controversial enough to be worth mentioning? Have you thought about getting over your fucking agenda and actually doing a neutral article, or better yet, deleting this article altogether? 50.186.0.86 11:00, 12 May 2014‎

If the press write stories on the mensrights subreddit (such as in the case of the doxing and fake rape report spam) and the Southern Poverty Law Center feels the need to list them as a hate website then they are notable to be included in this article as long as it exists. This article isn't bad subreddits, it's controversial ones. There are other controversial subreddits on here also. Would you really suggest deleting the whole article or is that just to get rid of the bits you WP:JDL? Are the jailbait and creepshots subreddits not extreme enough for you either? --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 11:05, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

It's not necessary that we're omitting them. We're not. However, reliable sources state that the men's rights subreddit is controversial. That's the deciding factor. If you were to bring forth reliable sources stating that /srs is controversial, it'll be considered per its weight in sources. We can't commit original research, so even if the vast majority of people consider the gore subreddits or something other to be controversial, unless it's covered in a reliable source, we can't include it. I'd be happy to hear of any possible additions that you might add. Or you could be bold and attempt to add it yourself. Tutelary (talk) 11:29, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Uh, what? The article has several sections besides the one on /r/mensrights. If you think something needs to be added to the article, make an edit. Breadblade (talk) 05:42, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

We could also discuss potential references here and whether or not a section is warranted prior to actually doing so. I noticed in a cursory search this petition, but I'm not sure if petitions alone are notable or if a paper has to report on them for it to count. SRS is mentioned in 2012 in a March and October article but I'm not sure how DailyDot stacks up in terms of notable media references. Ranze (talk) 07:43, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't think an online petition is considered a reliable source, unless it is covered elsewhere. The Daily Dot is probably fine though. Coverage of the place seems pretty limited either way, those sources seem to indicate that it was controversial within reddit but not really well-known beyond the site itself. Breadblade (talk) 21:49, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

SRS notability

Using Template:Find sources I found some thing worth discussing...

• Scholar search gave me this paper which addresses the group on page 17. It is authored by a Amy Billingsley, not sure who they are but figure it's someone of note to show up in a 'scholar' search. The paper is hosted by http://philosophy.uoregon.edu/ which is for the University of Oregon. I found this profile on the site for a "Amy Billingsley Marvin" PhD so I figure this to be the author, any disagreement? Does being written about in a scholarly paper written by a PhD working in the philosophy department of a university qualify a group as controversial? Ranze (talk) 07:59, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

• Haven't read it, but it doesn't seem to be published anywhere, looks like it was a submission to an essay contest. Seems like a bit of a reach. Breadblade (talk) 21:49, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

As long as it is a reliable source, which it appears just at first glance, whether it was 'published' or not is not of relevance. Tutelary (talk) 21:56, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

It's neither published nor subject to any sort of editorial control, at best it is a WP:QUESTIONABLE source. Breadblade (talk) 04:45, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

It would be lucky to be considered WP:QUESTIONABLE, I read it and applying it to say that the subreddit is controversial would be WP:SYNTH as it pretty much just celebrates them as being anti-sexism and anti-racism. Either way, I looked into it and it seems r/mensrights don't like r/shitredditsays very much as they tend to go through the subreddit and post sexist and racist comments from it. I'm fairly sure this is part of an online rivalry of some sort and probably inappropriate for the talk page --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 04:51, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't have too much experience with the reddit community but isn't SRS (shitredditsays) a meta-subreddit that discusses content on the website rather than one that hopes to have greater cultural influence like the mensrights subreddit? I really can't imagine them being controversial outside of the website and not enough to warrant a section in the article unless they contributed towards a notable doxing incident. I don't think we should include them for the sake of tokenism (which I believe is what the editor was discussing). That said, we could discuss their role in revealing these controversies and preventing the distribution of child pornography on the website --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 21:59, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

We're not going to interpret or commit original research by attempting to decipher the differences between the two. (Though I acknowledge it doesn't apply to talk pages.) The ultimate indicator on whether to include something in this list (from what I've seen) is for reliable sources to describe the subreddit as controversial, and include an event that that subreddit has done. I will be the first to say that we shall stick to what the sources say. Drowninginlimbo, this article is about controversial subreddit communities, for whatever reasoning. Nonetheless, if you do provide the reliable sources that say such, it will be considered given its due weight. Tutelary (talk) 22:04, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Well yeah, but it's difficult to discuss changes without contextualising the subject, and the policies are mostly just guidelines for the construction of articles. What I'm saying is, there probably won't be many sources concerning SRS being controversial because it doesn't have the outreach to be so. Maybe the article is a reliable source, but even so, I read through it, and it doesn't call SRS controversial, it just discusses its role on the website, and explains that the subreddit discusses sexist and racist content on the website --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 22:13, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

@Ranze:, given the fact that the source that you stated actually gave praise to them, do you have any other sources as to dictate this subreddit as controversial, and give its due weight into the article? Tutelary (talk) 13:53, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

TBH I did not thoroughly read what the paper said about the community, rather just that it was being discussed. I suppose even if mention in a paper established notability of a community, it might not establish the notability of any controversiality. Ranze (talk) 23:44, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

So then, of course, we can't include srs in this list due to the lack of reliable sources documenting them. Tutelary (talk) 23:53, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Don't close the discussion

Just because you two have decided that it's not worthy is not a rough consensus on this article. I am assuming good faith in this instance and I think that closing the discussion per [{WP:FORUM]] when it is clearly relevant as it's discussing its addition is somewhat disruptive and is biting the newcomers. We should educate on why it's not acceptable, rather than just closing the discussion prematurely, after one day. Tutelary (talk) 13:48, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Er, where did it say it was being closed? I'm just thinking replying might have trailed off a bit. Usually it's 'review' type stuff that gets closed, talk pages do not close. Unless maybe it's a move/delete one, but not about overall content. Ranze (talk) 23:48, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

@Ranze:, Drowninginlimbo closed the discussion per WP:FORUM which I believe was done in haste and is bitey to the newcomers, as well as out of place. Tutelary (talk) 23:52, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Ah now I see it. Looks like there were some template-closing squiggly brackets at the end but not the start. Gotta concur that I don't think it's off-topic, disussing the notability of any reddit community that could qualify for the article is on-topic. Ranze (talk) 23:58, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm fairly sure they are being disruptive. They suggested that we delete the entire article because they WP:JDL one section of it and then submitted a source that they hadn't even read as proof of r/shitredditsays as being controversial (despite it not saying that in the slightest). I personally think their actions are WP:DIS and WP:NPOV but if you think they have an argument you are welcome to support it yourself --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 00:28, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm a bit confused at this point, where/who suggested deleting the entire CRC article rather than just 1 section? Ranze (talk) 05:42, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

It is in the first message of this thread: "Have you thought about getting over your fucking agenda and actually doing a neutral article, or better yet, deleting this article altogether?" --31.205.21.96 (talk) 01:14, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

New possible inclusion - r/beatingwomen

It seems that Reddit banned one of the less excusably misogynistic subreddits.

[1] - Reddit bans infamous forum about beating women

Daily Dot is a good source for this. What does everybody think about including it? --31.205.21.96 (talk) 17:24, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

I have put in a short section summarizing this source and a complementary one as best as I could. It looks like there are some older sources that cover the subreddit as well, so it's possible that my addition could be fleshed out some more. Breadblade (talk) 22:06, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Revert

I reverted 3 edits in this edit due to the fact that the source does not state 30 users, nor the story of the user uploading the image, nor the comments by the users. I'm not doubting it, but it needs a source to not be original research. Tutelary (talk) 17:15, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

This source used in the relevant place in the article [2] specifically states "more than 30 redditors implored TheContortionist to send the photographs to them via personal message. (It is impossible to attach files via Reddit messages, so if any material was exchanged, the files in question would never have been posted on Reddit proper.)"

This one in the article [3] states "over 1,000 new subscribers over the weekend." "Cooper’s significant reporting arsenal seemed to have misfired"

Have I missed something? I am assuming good faith. As far as I can tell sources back up what I stated perfectly. Freikorp (talk) 17:22, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Who were the 'commentators' in that regard, then? The only people 'commenting' that it failed was DailyDot, and that should be clarified. If Daily Dot said it in that regard, then we should attribute it. To the other point, the reason why I reverted is because the statements didn't have a source behind them, even if they were there. After these news reports, a Reddit user uploaded an image of a underage girl and subsequently claimed to also have naked images of the girl, which prompted over 30 other users to request said images be sent to them via personal message. should have had this citation added to the end of it. For the other two points on 30 people and 1000 new subscribers, no longer contesting. Additionally, Though it is not possible to sent pictures on Reddit by personal message, other needs a source citation for that end of it. Tutelary (talk) 17:46, 12 June 2014 (UTC

The 1,000 subscriber boost seems small compared to the 1.73 million user traffic spike mentioned in the article (and not really significant considering the place was banned a week later). It also seems misleading to claim that pictures cannot be shared on reddit, when image sharing comprises a huge portion of the activity on the site. Pictures featured on reddit are always external links--there is no upload option via private message, but there isn't an upload option anywhere else, either. The other part of your edit seems fine to me, I'll see if I can put it back in. Breadblade (talk) 20:45, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Article name

Came across the article via the the afd and wonder about the article name. In most cases, it's the controversy that was notable rather than the community. That a creepshots community exists may be controversial in its own right, but not that a MensRights community exists. Men's Rights is certainly a controversial cause and plenty of controversies have transpired there, but unlike creepshots or jailbait the controversy isn't over its mere existence. And certainly /r/technology is not a "controversial community," but a community in/for which there has been controversy. Perhaps it's already been discussed and I missed it, but wouldn't a name like Reddit controversies, List of Reddit controversies (with formatting changes), or something more general if there's more that could be included like Social impact of Reddit be more fitting? --— Rhododendrites ^talk |  15:37, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure this concern is warranted. This isn't Reddit communities whose existence is controversial. /r/mensrights is controversial, regardless of whether or not a hypothetical men's rights subreddit that wasn't 100% misogyny would be controversial. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 16:08, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't understand your point. The article title indicates it's about Reddit communities that are controversial rather than controversies. It's not an article about communities formed around controversial subjects (even though many are, MensRights included) because half of Reddit is formed around controversial subjects (all kinds of pornography, religion, politics, and so on). The reason some of them are covered, along with communities that aren't about controversial subjects at all (like /technology), is because the article is actually about the controversies themselves (which is not what the title says). --— Rhododendrites ^talk |  16:47, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

It could be possible to rename the article "Controversies involving reddit" to match the new name of the controversies section on the 'Reddit' article, but unless the article were restructured it would still be organized by subreddit (media coverage seems to zero in on specific subreddits where controversies take root). Organizing by controversy would help sections like /r/technology fit better, but that one a bit of an outlier either way. Breadblade (talk) 16:57, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't see why it couldn't still be organized by subreddit as a neat approximation of subject-based sections if there's consensus for it, but at least if it were about controversies the controversy concerning /technology would make sense at all. --— Rhododendrites ^talk |  17:04, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

What about "Reddit community controversies"? "Reddit controversies" is also fine. The current name does seem to be a bit imprecise. It makes the existence of the communities sound controversial; this is generally true, but there are exceptions. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 18:17, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Well, in the current version of the article /r/technology is really the only example of a case where we're discussing a controversy in a relatively "uncontroversial" subreddit. In fact, if /r/technology isn't a controversial reddit community, what is it doing in this article? If we do go ahead with the name change, I would like it to mirror the appropriate section in the Reddit article ("Controversies Involving Reddit"). An easy way to reformat it for now would be to keep the sections for controversial subreddits as is and then add one or more sections for additional types of controversies. My main reservation is this could make the scope of the article too broad and potentially bog it down with frivolous reddit controversies. Breadblade (talk) 07:23, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm the one who posted the AfD - my main issue is that the term 'controversial' is highly subjective - who defines what is controversial in these cases? The second issue is, as Rhododendrites pointed out, that issues in these subreddits do not equate the subreddits themselves. The subreddits are simply the medium on which these controversial topics were posted. So, for example, while men's rightsin general *may* be controversial, an entire forum dedicated to the issue cannot be labeled controversial, as all the posts contained therein are not controversial in nature, (or controversial to everyone). Why not delete the article and move the sections to their related articles? For instance any controversies relating to reddit and the Men's Rights Movement could just be posted in the later's article, if it isn't already. Zambelo; talk 23:42, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Respectfully, there is already a discussion going on at AfD about deletion for which rather strong consensus is emerging to keep. No need to engage it here as well. What are your thoughts on renaming, though? --— Rhododendrites ^talk |  23:46, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Possible Inclusion: /r/picsofdeadkids

This is really controversial, and should be included. It shows pictures of dead kids. 181.55.175.229 (talk) 16:27, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Got a source saying that the subreddit is controversial? Tutelary (talk) 12

58, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

http://www.dailydot.com/society/reddit-beatingwomen-misogyny-images/ Here's one Weedwacker (talk) 23:43, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Doxxing Spelling

The term "doxxing" is spelled both as "doxxing" and as "doxing." Shouldn't this be consistent? 208.105.193.106 (talk) 02:56, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

/r/MensRights and Gawker

@Roscelese: @Parabolist: @PeterTheFourth: I am vexed by the accusations you all have seen fit to levy in reverting my edits. Since none of you sought to open any kind of discussion, I am doing it now.

Gawker is not a reliable source, except for its own opinions (I left in sourcing of Chen's allegations re /r/jailbait for this reason). The criticism (not labelled explicitly as such, but accompanying most if not all of the notable "content" items discussed) on their own WP page provides ample evidence of a lack of commitment to fact-checking, as well as an emphasis placed on stirring controversy and attracting page clicks. The unreliability of Gawker has been discussed before at RSN, over many years, and as far as I can tell the opinion has never been positive.

But even beyond that, they have a clear vested interest in denigrating Reddit, given the fallout of the /r/jailbait incident (Gawker seems to view this as a victory; they are to some extent in competition with Reddit as the latter is used as a place to share and propagate news stories; and regular users of either or both sites will note that there is no love lost between the two among commenters).

I asked about my removal on BLP grounds at BLP/N and my decision was explicitly endorsed there.

Which brings us to removal of content discussing the "misogyny" of /r/MensRights. Previous discussion on this talk page has consistently come down against discussion of the "toxicity" of /r/ShitRedditSays, with the claim that it probably could not be reliably sourced. Recently, when someone found actually reliably-sourced information supporting this claim and tried to add it, it was challenged and removed as "not a controversy". The editor commented that the same logic would apply to the /r/MensRights section I removed, and then the /r/ShitRedditSays material was removed again, again claiming it was "not a controversy". I am left asking: if a third-party opinion that a community is "toxic" does not constitute controversy, why should a third-party opinion that the community is "misogynistic"? How is there any difference there? Surely it's not simply because the SPLC clarified their statement (misinterpretations happen all the time), and surely it's not because the community protested the label (who wouldn't?). This is unlike the other allegations made against the /r/MensRights community, since it is only talking about attitudes attributed to them, rather than actions. (This whole situation is doubly absurd to me given that /r/ShitRedditSays and the related community appear to be primarily responsible for propagation - and misrepresentation - of the SPLC claims in question.)

At any rate, I would like to request an apology from the editors I pinged for those edit summaries. I am indeed serious about my changes, and do not appreciate the dismissiveness of being questioned on this in lieu of an actual justification for reverting. I am not engaging in "pointy vandalism"; to do so would require my edits to be vandalism, and my edits are backed by policy and good-faith reasoning and logic. I am not pushing a POV; I am removing an unreliable source for points where it is unreliable, attempting to apply a consistent standard across the page for what material counts as "controversial" (the opposite of POV, as far as I can tell), and upholding BLP. 74.12.93.177 (talk) 14:50, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry I hurt your feelings. PeterTheFourth (talk) 14:59, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

if a third-party opinion that a community is "toxic" does not constitute controversy, why should a third-party opinion that the community is "misogynistic"? - Uh, this actually is a pretty straightforward example of disrupting Wikipedia to illustrate a point. I have no opinion on ShitRedditSays, but there's no equivalence between the pre-eminent hate watchdog group in the US and a guy doing a research project in his spare time; disqualifying the sources on SRS wouldn't automatically entail disqualifying the sources on MRAs. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 16:30, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm not seeing a compelling argument to blank the SPLC section. This all seems awfully WP:POINTy to me. The Southern Poverty Law Center is a well-known authority on hate groups, and they wrote a piece on /r/mensrights which sparked off a controversy. That's a lot more significant than earning a "toxicity" score on some unknown researcher's computer program. The section should be restored. As for the BLP issue in the lede, I can see the issue with sourcing and think it should be rewritten (or stay removed). Breadblade (talk) 19:33, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps I was unclear. My argument regarding the SPLC section is not about the quality of sourcing, but about having a consistent definition of "controversial". 74.12.93.177 (talk) 23:09, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

/r/fatpeoplehate

/r/fatpeoplehate is a subreddit where users post pictures of fat people (usually young women) taken from their facebook pages without their permission, or candid photos taken on the street, to be ridiculed. It has become a massively popular subreddit and many people have complained about their photos being posted there without their permission and finding candid photos of themselves taken without their knowledge and posted on the subreddit.

Also, a user named always2late2 posted a plea for help and a picture of herself on a subreddit for suicidal people called /r/suicidewatch and her picture was taken and posted on /r/fatpeoplehate which resulted in the user taking her own life. https://i.imgur.com/A6ORPlL.png — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:E:1380:1345:8466:7AE9:229B:CB50 (talk) 13:26, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Do you have WP:reliable sources for that? The source above isn't RS and doesn't mention the person took her life. Regardless of what happened this could have been a factor in the recent ban so if there are reliable sources reporting this connection it probably should be in the article. (If the sources only mention the controversy but are from before the ban it's possible we should mention it as well without making any link but that's less clear and would probably require more discussion.) Nil Einne (talk) 06:22, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

'Users' or 'Mens rights activists'

Hi LLefleur. Why do you believe that this sentence "Around 400 false rape accusations were made by men's rights activists against members of the college, feminists, and fictional people" should have 'men's rights activists' replaced with 'users', contrary to our sources? PeterTheFourth has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 10:31, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm not LLefleur and I don't know if that user has the same reasoning, but I could see the argument that these people are not "activists." My issue with "users" is that it's unclear whether it refers to users of the "men's rights" forum or users of the Occidental College website. Can we agree on a third option of some kind? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 13:30, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Sure thing. 'users of the men's rights forum' would be fine (albeit clunky)- any usage which flies close to representing the sources accurately is good by me. PeterTheFourth has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 21:15, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

/r/fatpeoplehate

Any reason (apart from edit filters) not to list the 5 subreddits that were banned? All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 14:40, 18 June 2015 (UTC).

 Done All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 22:57, 18 June 2015 (UTC).

Most toxic, most bigoted subreddits

• Toxicity in Reddit communities: a journey to the darkest depths of the interwebs
• Reddit study: ShitRedditSays is site’s most toxic thread; TheRedPill is most bigoted

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 19:23, 18 June 2015 (UTC).

Unreliable sources?

@JacktheHarry: Which sources? If we know which ones you mean, we can discuss and potentially remove/replace them. But this article also has many good sources, and it's not clear what you are referring to. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 19:44, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Removing this tag for now; it's not obvious which sources need improvement and they haven't come by the talk page to elaborate. Breadblade (talk) 14:12, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Request: To rename "Controversial Reddit communities" to "Controversial subreddits"

The term "Subreddit" is used to refer to Reddit communities. Therefore, I propose that the name of the article should be renamed to "Controversial subreddits" as the title is simplified. Yoshiman6464 (talk) 02:30, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

@Yoshiman6464: consider using a move request to increase visibility. I'm indifferent. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 15:46, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

SRS

Question - why is SRS not included in this list? It is widely reported as the most controversial subreddit. Is there a reliable source issue?

Just a couple examples: An article from the observer.com

Another from the Daily Dot

Here's one from Ventrue Beat

And finally an article from Vice

I think the article needs to be significantly overhauled - listing SRS as the most controversial subreddit (currently). Please let me know if I am missing something here.. 23.242.67.118 (talk) 06:22, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

The observer article has a two sentence mention among a baker's dozen of subreddits listed. Daily Dot does not call SRS controversial. Venture Beat does not call SRS controversial. Vice does not call SRS controversial. PeterTheFourth (talk) 02:18, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

@PeterTheFourth:Please read the articles in question. The Observer article specifically says SRS is one of the most controversial subreddits on the entire site. The other three articles, while not using the word controversial, make it very clear that the subreddit is "contentious" and "toxic". Please also read the other sources listed- none of them refer to any of the other subreddits included at being more "controversial" than SRS.

Also please note, I am open minded and willing to self-revert, but it honestly appears that the bulk of recent reliable sources refer to SRS as either the most controversial or most contentious or most toxic subreddit. If I am wrong, that's fine, but rather than just blanking the entire section, let's work on a solution that makes sense. 23.242.67.118 (talk) 02:39, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

This is not a list of 'most toxic' subreddits. It is a list of controversial subreddits, of which only one of your sources lists it as such. Why does this deserve inclusion with only two sentences of mention in one source? PeterTheFourth (talk) 02:49, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

But I fail to find anything in the sources referring to r/mensrights or r/technology as "controversial". Not sure if the objection to including SRS is semantics - if so perhaps a renaming of the article is in order. Rather than most controversial, something like "Noteable Subreddits". I am genuinely acing in good faith here and trying to understand the objection.. 23.242.67.118 (talk) 02:52, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

If those sources do not indicate that those subreddits are controversial, then you can either tag it as needing additional references or remove those subreddits. If you would like to start a new article (perhaps Notable Subreddits), you're welcome to. Only one of your sources displays that SRS is 'controversial', and it only gets a brief mention, and as such the inclusion is not WP:DUE. PeterTheFourth (talk) 02:56, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

Rather than removing all of the subreddits listed, how about changing the article to "controversial/notable subreddits". Would you agree to a change along those lines? 23.242.67.118 (talk) 02:59, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

ETA - and again the other sources I included for SRS do refer to it as "contentious" which is a synonym for "controversial". Please answer a question for me to help me better understand: How do the other subreddits listed qualify as "controversial" when there is not a single source referring to them as such? 23.242.67.118 (talk) 03:03, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

Moving the article to something entirely different because you would like to add something to the list that does not belong there is a very drastic move. I suggest you start a new article. If you believe more should be removed than the content you have added, then you're free to remove more. PeterTheFourth (talk) 03:04, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

@PeterTheFourth: I have self-reverted. It is not my intention to dismantle the article, although by your logic, it would seem none of the subreddit listed qualify since none of them are referred to as "controversial" anywhere in the sources. I would appreciate an answer to my question though. You objected to SRS because it is (in your opinion) poorly sourced as controversial. Why no objection to the other subreddits? How do the other subreddits listed qualify as "controversial" when there is not a single source referring to them as such?

I haven't said I believe the other subreddits are controversial- it's irrelevant to my removal of your addition. I have no opinion one way or another of whether or not the other listed subreddits qualify for inclusion, because I haven't looked into the sources used for their inclusion. PeterTheFourth (talk) 03:32, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

Drive by comment. Just because an article doesn't say something is controversial (using the exact term) does not necessarily mean what it did wasn't controversial. That would be considered editorialising within most journalistic sources so likely avoided, unless they were quoting someone else, providing an op-ed, or being exceptionally blatant because other notable individuals or agencies had used the term. Also, you may find that some articles would only refer to a "controversy" that SRS are part of without indicating that they individually were controversial. Sources per below:

• Daily Dot; "The community’s abrasive tactics and wholesale smears of Reddit - as opposed to specific subreddits like r/MensRights or r/jailbait - have fueled an ongoing controversy." suggests that they are involved in controversies, but not controversial.
• I wouldn't normally use Breitbart as an example of anything like journalism, but this is the one "news" source that suggests they are themselves a source of controversy - but that's coming from a controversial source for such content. "These columnists have much in common with /r/ShitRedditSays, a controversial community that built its reputation by attacking the culture of the wider Reddit community."
• Salon in contrast outlines that SRS is involved in exposing other controversial subreddits which in and of itself may be considered controversial by the Reddit community but not controversial to the rest of the world.
• The Guardian meanwhile takes the same study linked by the IP, but provides significant context to the reason why they come top

But there are also some surprises.

ShitRedditSays, a subreddit which focuses on highlighting bad content around the rest of Reddit (frequently from a social justice viewpoint), comes close to the top. In part, that is because the toxicity is directed outwards, “at the Reddit community at large”, says Bell.

“It’s also important to note that a significant portion of their Toxicity score came from conversations between SRS members and other Redditors who come specifically to disagree and pick fights with the community - a trap that many members tend to fall into, and which led to some rather nasty and highly unproductive conversations.”

In summary. SRS is likely controversial only to other SubReddits that are exposed by them. The media and notable sources generally consider SRS to be doing a public service. Koncorde (talk) 08:45, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

@Koncorde: As I mentioned above, I have self-reverted. But I respectfully disagree with your analysis. Did you read the observer.com piece? It says: "“Shit Reddit Says,” although difficult to define, is one of the most controversial of all of the subreddits. It does not say it is viewed as controversial within the reddit community - it says it is a controversial subreddit - period. Bottom line, it seems there is enough evidence, and enough reliable sources to refer to SRS as "controversial", especially when compared to the other subreddits listed in the article. And I don't see anything at all where the media refers to SRS as "providing a public service". To the contrary, all the RS I have found refer to SRS (quote) as the "most toxic subreddit". This is the commonly held view among all the media pieces I have found - that SRS is toxic and contentious. Finally I agree with you that "Just because an article doesn't say something is controversial (using the exact term) does not necessarily mean what it did wasn't controversial.". That was my argument from the beginning - that SRS is indeed controversial even if the sources don't use that exact term. So we are in agreement there. Perhaps you have a suggestion as to how I could reword the SRS entry to make it more appropriate for inclusion in this list? 23.242.67.118 (talk) 20:17, 20 November 2016 (UTC)