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Frequently asked questions

Q: Are libertarianism and socialism mutually exclusive?

A: No. Libertarians believe liberty consists of personal autonomy, and they justify a strong distrust of the state upon this foundation. Socialism is a social and economic system characterised by social ownership of the means of production and co-operative management of the economy, as well as a political theory and movement that aims at the establishment of such a system.^[1] Although socialism is commonly associated with the planned economies proffered by Marxism-Leninism and other "authoritarian socialists," libertarian socialism rejects economic direction from a central authority such as the state.^[2] Thus, libertarianism and anarchism have been synonyms since the 1890s,^[3] and other equivalents include libertarian socialism,^[4] socialist anarchism,^[5] and left-libertarianism.^[6] The libertarianism of the 19th century had two strong currents, social anarchism and individualist anarchism, both of which fall under the umbrella of libertarian socialism and were explicitly anti-capitalist.^[7]^[8]

In the 20th century, members of the Old Right in the United States such as Albert Jay Nock and H. L. Mencken^[9] began identifying as libertarians to declare their commitment to individualism and distance themselves from liberals who supported welfare capitalism. Some libertarians (e.g. Murray Rothbard, who popularized the libertarian philosophy anarcho-capitalism) were explicitly influenced by the American individualist anarchists, but most were "a rather automatic product of the American environment."^[10] This modern American libertarianism is also referred to as right-libertarianism.^[11]

Q: What is right-libertarianism? What is left-libertarianism?

A: Right-libertarianism refers to those libertarian ideologies that extoll private property without recompense paid by the owner to the local community, and includes anarcho-capitalism and laissez-faire, minarchist liberalism.^[11] This is contrasted with left-libertarianism, which either rejects private property, or accepts it only under the condition that the local community is compensated for the exclusionary effects thereof (e.g. a land value tax).^[12] Left-libertarianism includes libertarian socialism,^[6] left-wing market anarchism,^[8] and geolibertarianism.^[13]

Q: How are all these political philosophies related? Which ones are closely related or inclusive?

A: Some labels and qualifiers are typically used to group together multiple political movements or ideologies or distance them from others. Below is a rough and simplified visual representation of how many of the political camps described in the article (i.e. groups that have either identified or been described as libertarian) relate to one another, without any regard to their affinity for one another, their prominence or their significance.

Libertarian classification diagram
Libertarianism diagram

References

^ Badie, Bertrand; Berg-Schlosser, Dirk; Morlino, Leonardo (2011). International Encyclopedia of Political Science. SAGE Publications, Inc. p. 2456. ISBN 978-1412959636. "Socialist systems are those regimes based on the economic and political theory of socialism, which advocates public ownership and cooperative management of the means of production and allocation of resources."
^ Sacco, Nicola and Vanzetti, Bartolomeo (1928). The Letters of Sacco and Vanzetti. New York: Octagon Books. p. 274. "After all we are socialists as the social-democrats, the socialists, the communists, and the I.W.W. are all Socialists. The difference—the fundamental one—between us and all the other is that they are authoritarian while we are libertarian; they believe in a State or Government of their own; we believe in no State or Government."
^ Nettlau, Max (1996). A Short History of Anarchism (in English, translated). London:Freedom Press. p. 162. ISBN 978-0-900384-89-9. OCLC 37529250.
^ Guérin, Daniel (1970). Anarchism: From Theory to Practice. New York:Monthly Review Press. ISBN 978-0853451754. "Some contemporary anarchists have tried to clear up the misunderstanding by adopting a more explicit term: they align themselves with libertarian socialism or communism."
^ Ostergaard, Geoffrey. "Anarchism". The Blackwell Dictionary of Modern Social Thought. Blackwell Publishing. p. 14.
^ ^a ^b Bookchin, Murray and Biehl, Janet (1997). The Murray Bookchin Reader. New York:Cassell. p. 170.
^ Marshall, Peter (2009). Demanding the Impossible: A History of Anarchism. Oakland:PM Press. p. 4. ISBN 978-1-60486-064-1. "[Anarchism] emerged at the end of the eighteenth century in its modern form as a response partly to the rise of centalized States and nationalism, and partly to industrialization and capital. Anarchism thus took up the dual challenge of overthrowing both Capital and the State."
^ ^a ^b Chartier, Gary. Johnson, Charles W. (2011). Markets Not Capitalism: Individualist Anarchism Against Bosses, Inequality, Corporate Power, and Structural Poverty. Minor Compositions. pp. 4-5. ISBN 978-1570272424. "The anticapitalism of the 'first wave' individualists [represented mainly by 'individualist anarchists' and 'mutualists' such as Benjamin Tucker, Voltairine de Cleyre, and Dyer Lum] was obvious to them and to many of their contemporaries."
^ Burns, Jennifer (2009). Goddess of the Market: Ayn Rand and the American Right. New York:Oxford University Press. p. 309. ISBN 978-0-19-532487-7.
^ DeLeon, David (1978). The American as Anarchist: Reflections on Indigenous Radicalism. Johns Hopkins University Press. p. 127. "only a few individuals like Murray Rothbard, in Power and Market, and some article writers were influenced by [past anarchists like Spooner and Tucker]. Most had not evolved consciously from this tradition; they had been a rather automatic product of the American environment."
^ ^a ^b Goodway, David (2006). Anarchist Seeds Beneath the Snow: Left-Libertarian Thought and British Writers from William Morris to Colin Ward. Liverpool:Liverpool University Press. p. 4. "'Libertarian' and 'libertarianism' are frequently employed by anarchists as synonyms for 'anarchist' and 'anarchism', largely as an attempt to distance themselves from the negative connotations of 'anarchy' and its derivatives. The situation has been vastly complicated in recent decades with the rise of anarcho-capitalism, 'minimal statism' and an extreme right-wing laissez-faire philosophy advocated by such theorists as Murray Rothbard and Robert Nozick and their adoption of the words 'libertarian' and 'libertarianism'. It has therefore now become necessary to distinguish between their right libertarianism and the left libertarianism of the anarchist tradition."
^ Hamowy, Ronald. "Left Libertarianism." The Encyclopedia of Libertarianism. p. 288
^ Foldvary, Fred E. "Geoism and Libertarianism". The Progress Report. Progress.org. Retrieved 2013-03-26.

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This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

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Text and/or other creative content from this version of Thin and thick libertarianism was copied or moved into Libertarianism with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

Wage labor section is a bit shallow

The current wage labor section largely cites non-libertarians critiques of wage labor.

Wage labor as coercion can also be derived from hayak in a bit more nuance the the present as can the nature of (un)employment as product of lack of flexibility in wages, worker mobility.

https://books.google.com/books?id=nclLLOfnGqAC&pg=PA55&dq=a+certain+minimum+income+for+everyone,+or+a+sort+of+floor+below+which+nobody+need+fall+even+when+he+is+unable+to+provide+for+himself&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DJ20UrHfE8HYoASS3YKoDQ&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=a%2520certain%2520minimum%2520income%2520for%2520everyone%252C%2520or%2520a%2520sort%2520of%2520floor%2520below%2520which%2520nobody%2520need%2520fall%2520even%2520when%2520he%2520is%2520unable%2520to%2520provide%2520for%2520himself&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=plCHyxBYrp8C&pg=PA425&dq=constitution+of+liberty+definitive+edition+%22worker%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjj35iKl-_VAhWHqlQKHRUXCTcQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=constitution%20of%20liberty%20definitive%20edition%20%22worker%22&f=false

https://www.libertarianism.org/columns/why-did-hayek-support-basic-income

http://crookedtimber.org/2012/07/01/let-it-bleed-libertarianism-and-the-workplace/

Diagram

I've said this before, but that diagram is badly in need of a citation. It's rather dubious for several reasons. Benjamin (talk) 07:09, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Please modify/remove it as needed. It was intended to be a very rough overview for future editors, with references left to relevant articles, on account of a constant stream of fruitless discussion committed to variations "X can't be libertarian because Y is libertarian" (with X and Y being either mutually exclusive or fully inclusive). fi (talk) 07:14, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know how to modify it and I don't want to remove it. Benjamin (talk) 08:05, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Lead fails verification

Key statements in the lead fail verification for the following reasons:

As plainly obvious to anyone who actually reads the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy citation, the web-page – from start-to-finish – exclusively describes late 20th century neoliberal US libertarianism, referring to its relative "right" and "left" sides. There is not even a single, cursory mention of historical anticapitalist libertarianism as part of the socialist movement. There is yet no citation stating that libertarian socialists are proponents of "self-ownership" – a concept which goes back to readings of laissez faire and liberal – not anarchist – authors.

There is absolutely no citation suggesting or implying that a majority of libertarians are proponents of state, as the lead states unambiguously.

The lead uses "government" and "state" interchangeably in a way that contradicts the information in its given sources. Anarchists advocate "self-government" but also advocate abolition of state. If the sources use these words to mean radically different things, so should the lead.

There is no citation given for putting mutualism into the propertarian category and later citations, along with history, suggest the opposite: a political camp broadly opposed to private property.

No citation is given on libertarian currents concerned with "syncretic politics" and the statement does not appear to summarize anything in the actual article.

Please refrain from original research. Either cite the creative interpretations above or remove the unverified assertions. fi (talk) 01:32, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You are new to WP and the libertarian page. Leftists have taken over the page and have tried to distort this page to make it appear as if there is a genuine left-libertarian school. They are just socialists looking to confuse people. They can't keep to their own socialist pages and hate the idea that the WP libertarian page even exists. Sad. But WP is infected by these trolls. You need to give up on WP on political and economic matters and go to Mises.org or Lew Rockwell etc. 220.240.19.85 (talk) 03:00, 27 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

While I agree that leftists have taken over the page, and put their ideology into every article they possibly can, it would be an error for people of other ideologies to not represent themselves on Wikipedia. A Libertarian (not a socialist) created Wikipedia, and frankly? The defeatist attitude is silly. Socialists are just people, they don't have a monopoly on good arguments - they're just extremely productive at putting their views out there. Compete with them. A Pickle (talk) 18:16, 28 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

WP is a place for verifiable encyclopedic articles, not a place to "compete" with anybody to propagandize your favorite political opinions. The actual historical record indicates the opposite of what you've stated: the leftist term libertarian, long synonymous with anti-state socialist/communist, was adopted/appropriated by the American right and far right in the mid-to-late 20th century. This is why the article includes so much content on right wing politics: to reflect the reality of a label that's now used for both radical anticapitalist politics and far-right reactionary politics. Which one of these you like best is not pertinent either to the article or this talk page, so please keep it to yourself or find a more appropriate venue for these discussions. fi (talk) 02:51, 1 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You are mistaken. As the article sources in detail, left-libertarians were the first people to use the term (anarchists who believed that eliminating or reducing hierarchy was essential to defending liberty); in America in the mid-20th century, right-wing activists co-opted the term from them. This isn't controversial or disputed - Rothbard writes with very smug satisfaction at this feat. It is the right-libertarians who are the newcomers. (And the term is still frequently used to refer to left-wing anarchists outside of the US.) --Aquillion (talk) 15:32, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The first recorded use of the term "libertarian" was in 1789, when William Belsham wrote about libertarianism in the context of metaphysics. - Clarity?

It'd be nice if the person who cited this source [11] would go into more detail about what the heck William Belsham was talking about. My 18th century speak is rusty. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.250.72.238 (talk) 21:53, 23 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Misleading Pov & ad-like PR.

More often than not, political names (and self-definitions) are not correct. For example the Nazis were not really socialist and the USSR, North Korea and China are probably not republics. In the case of the Nazis, it was an intentional early gambit to gain membership. Likewise U.S. Libertarianism in the real world is actually mostly about business freedom, ie, deregulation. The Libertarian Party is the economics party. For example, the article uses the term "economic" 50 times! I saw few hints of that value/philosophy enunciated in the article. (Perhaps somebody just forgot?)

But the Economics section is only two short paragraphs long, and the view of the Party (the ~90%, the U.S. mainstream Libbie philosophy) is super short:

Right-libertarians are economic liberals of either the Austrian School or Chicago school and support laissez-faire capitalism.[69]

Well, yes and no. No because the libertarians are so extreme they seem to worship imaginary unregulated business, and the so-called invisible hand as holy, magical perfection, giving real Austrian School and Chicago school economics a bad name. For example, most libertarian's near worship of greed-is-good philosophy Objectivism (Ayn Rand) as portrayed for example, in her books such as The Virtue of Selfishness.

Right-libertarianism - Wikipedia - Right-libertarianism (or right-wing libertarianism, and usually simply referred to as libertarianism in the United States) refers to libertarian political philosophies that advocate negative rights, natural law and a major reversal of the modern welfare state.

Libertarian economics:  A philosophical critique ... with the platform of the American Libertarian Party....the platform suffers from the very same factual and conceptual difficulties that we find in the writings of the political philosophers that inspired it.... would also reject these extreme views. The bottom line is that until Libertarians give more thought to economic ..

(Bold emphasis mine.) The consensus is loosely; it's whacko, intellectually sloppy, and not nice as I have only hinted. Despite the thick layers of pseudo-intellectualism, this is not a respectable world view. Please look around a little and correct this lopsided PoV ad-like distortion. Cheers!
--2602:306:CFCE:1EE0:3044:A2C3:2683:987B (talk) 15:03, 7 November 2018 (UTC)Doug Bashford[reply]

[1] Badie, Bertrand; Berg-Schlosser, Dirk; Morlino, Leonardo (2011). International Encyclopedia of Political Science. SAGE Publications, Inc. p. 2456. ISBN 978-1412959636. "Socialist systems are those regimes based on the economic and political theory of socialism, which advocates public ownership and cooperative management of the means of production and allocation of resources."

[2] Sacco, Nicola and Vanzetti, Bartolomeo (1928). The Letters of Sacco and Vanzetti. New York: Octagon Books. p. 274. "After all we are socialists as the social-democrats, the socialists, the communists, and the I.W.W. are all Socialists. The difference—the fundamental one—between us and all the other is that they are authoritarian while we are libertarian; they believe in a State or Government of their own; we believe in no State or Government."

[nettlau-3] Nettlau, Max (1996). A Short History of Anarchism (in English, translated). London:Freedom Press. p. 162. ISBN 978-0-900384-89-9. OCLC 37529250.

[4] Guérin, Daniel (1970). Anarchism: From Theory to Practice. New York:Monthly Review Press. ISBN 978-0853451754. "Some contemporary anarchists have tried to clear up the misunderstanding by adopting a more explicit term: they align themselves with libertarian socialism or communism."

[Ostergaard_p._14-5] Ostergaard, Geoffrey. "Anarchism". The Blackwell Dictionary of Modern Social Thought. Blackwell Publishing. p. 14.

[bookchinreader-6] Bookchin, Murray and Biehl, Janet (1997). The Murray Bookchin Reader. New York:Cassell. p. 170.

[7] Marshall, Peter (2009). Demanding the Impossible: A History of Anarchism. Oakland:PM Press. p. 4. ISBN 978-1-60486-064-1. "[Anarchism] emerged at the end of the eighteenth century in its modern form as a response partly to the rise of centalized States and nationalism, and partly to industrialization and capital. Anarchism thus took up the dual challenge of overthrowing both Capital and the State."

[marketsnotcapitalism-8] Chartier, Gary. Johnson, Charles W. (2011). Markets Not Capitalism: Individualist Anarchism Against Bosses, Inequality, Corporate Power, and Structural Poverty. Minor Compositions. pp. 4-5. ISBN 978-1570272424. "The anticapitalism of the 'first wave' individualists [represented mainly by 'individualist anarchists' and 'mutualists' such as Benjamin Tucker, Voltairine de Cleyre, and Dyer Lum] was obvious to them and to many of their contemporaries."

[9] Burns, Jennifer (2009). Goddess of the Market: Ayn Rand and the American Right. New York:Oxford University Press. p. 309. ISBN 978-0-19-532487-7.

[americananarchist-10] DeLeon, David (1978). The American as Anarchist: Reflections on Indigenous Radicalism. Johns Hopkins University Press. p. 127. "only a few individuals like Murray Rothbard, in Power and Market, and some article writers were influenced by [past anarchists like Spooner and Tucker]. Most had not evolved consciously from this tradition; they had been a rather automatic product of the American environment."

[anarchistseeds-11] Goodway, David (2006). Anarchist Seeds Beneath the Snow: Left-Libertarian Thought and British Writers from William Morris to Colin Ward. Liverpool:Liverpool University Press. p. 4. "'Libertarian' and 'libertarianism' are frequently employed by anarchists as synonyms for 'anarchist' and 'anarchism', largely as an attempt to distance themselves from the negative connotations of 'anarchy' and its derivatives. The situation has been vastly complicated in recent decades with the rise of anarcho-capitalism, 'minimal statism' and an extreme right-wing laissez-faire philosophy advocated by such theorists as Murray Rothbard and Robert Nozick and their adoption of the words 'libertarian' and 'libertarianism'. It has therefore now become necessary to distinguish between their right libertarianism and the left libertarianism of the anarchist tradition."

[encyclolib-12] Hamowy, Ronald. "Left Libertarianism." The Encyclopedia of Libertarianism. p. 288

[progress.org-13] Foldvary, Fred E. "Geoism and Libertarianism". The Progress Report. Progress.org. Retrieved 2013-03-26.

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@@ Line 115: / Line 115: @@
 It'd be nice if the person who cited this source [11] would go into more detail about what the heck William Belsham was talking about.  My 18th century speak is rusty.  <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/205.250.72.238|205.250.72.238]] ([[User talk:205.250.72.238#top|talk]]) 21:53, 23 June 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
+== Misleading Pov & ad-like PR. ==
+More often than not, political names (and self-definitions) are not correct. For example the Nazis were not really socialist and the USSR, [[North Korea]] and China are probably not republics.  In the case of the Nazis, it was an intentional early gambit to gain membership. Likewise U.S. Libertarianism in the '''real''' world is actually mostly about ''business'' freedom, ie, deregulation. The Libertarian Party is the economics party.  For example, the article uses the term "economic" 50 times! &nbsp; I saw few hints of that value/philosophy enunciated in the article. (Perhaps somebody just forgot?)
+But the Economics section is only two short paragraphs long, and the view of the Party (the ~90%, the U.S. mainstream Libbie philosophy) is super short:
+ ''[[Right-libertarians]] are economic liberals of either the Austrian School or Chicago school and support laissez-faire capitalism.[69]''
+Well, yes and no. No because the libertarians are so extreme they seem to worship imaginary unregulated business, and the so-called [[invisible hand]] as holy, magical perfection, giving real Austrian School and Chicago school economics a bad name. For example, most libertarian's near worship of greed-is-good philosophy [[Objectivism (Ayn Rand)]] as portrayed for example, in her books such as [[The Virtue of Selfishness]].
+ [[Right-libertarianism]] - Wikipedia - Right-libertarianism (or right-wing libertarianism, and usually '''simply referred to as libertarianism''' in the United States) refers to libertarian political philosophies that advocate negative rights, natural law and a major reversal of the modern welfare state.
+ [http://theconversation.com/libertarian-economics-a-philosophical-critique-68043 Libertarian economics:]  A philosophical critique ... with the platform of the American Libertarian Party....the platform suffers from the very same '''factual and conceptual difficulties''' that we find in the writings of the political philosophers that inspired it.... would also reject these '''extreme views'''. The bottom line is that until Libertarians give more thought to economic ..
+(Bold emphasis mine.)  &nbsp;  &nbsp;
+The consensus is loosely; it's whacko, intellectually sloppy, and not nice as I have only hinted. Despite the thick layers of pseudo-intellectualism, this is not a respectable world view. Please look around a little and correct this lopsided PoV ad-like distortion.  Cheers! <BR> --[[Special:Contributions/2602:306:CFCE:1EE0:3044:A2C3:2683:987B|2602:306:CFCE:1EE0:3044:A2C3:2683:987B]] ([[User talk:2602:306:CFCE:1EE0:3044:A2C3:2683:987B|talk]]) 15:03, 7 November 2018 (UTC)Doug Bashford